Our local B&Q Warehouse is the size of two football pitches apparently.

It doesn't really matter because they hardly have anything you can buy, just
a load of stuff you can look at.

And if they do have it the place is so big you can't bloody find it.

We decided on some kitchen unit doors. They were special order and were
going to take 3 weeks to come in.
So we chose some they did have, but they didn't have drawer fronts or
worktop joining strips.

And to cap it all they have dispensed with the customer services desk, if
you want help you have to go on the hunt for someone, who usually knows less
than you do.

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY is
going and getting the stuff.

R D S wrote:

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY is
going and getting the stuff.

Join the club. I reckon the acquiring phase takes as long or longer than
the job itself.
Then theres always that unexpected plumbing part that you can only get
from a plumbers merchant but they shut at lunchtime on Saturday...

On 2007-09-01 20:43:09 +0100, "R D S" said:

Our local B&Q Warehouse is the size of two football pitches apparently.

It doesn't really matter because they hardly have anything you can buy, just
a load of stuff you can look at.

And if they do have it the place is so big you can't bloody find it.

We decided on some kitchen unit doors. They were special order and were
going to take 3 weeks to come in.
So we chose some they did have, but they didn't have drawer fronts or
worktop joining strips.

And to cap it all they have dispensed with the customer services desk, if
you want help you have to go on the hunt for someone, who usually knows less
than you do.

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY is
going and getting the stuff.



Always, and these supermarkets are among the least efficient way to
procure items.

It's much more time effective to use specialist merchants plus on line
suppliers such as Screwfix, but these do require some forward planning.

The only case where DIY supermarkets are useful is on Saturday
afternoon through to Sunday afternoon if one needs to buy an assortment
of forgotten items to complete a project. There is a reasonable
chance of a one-stop shop.

"R D S" wrote in message

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY
is
going and getting the stuff.





That the only shed you have in your locality?

3 B&Q's
2 Focus
2 Taskers DIY
2 Homebase
1 Rapid Hardware
1 Screwfix

All within a 5 to 6 mile radius

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-09-01 20:43:09 +0100, "R D S" said:

Our local B&Q Warehouse is the size of two football pitches apparently.

It doesn't really matter because they hardly have anything you can buy, just
a load of stuff you can look at.

And if they do have it the place is so big you can't bloody find it.

We decided on some kitchen unit doors. They were special order and were
going to take 3 weeks to come in.
So we chose some they did have, but they didn't have drawer fronts or
worktop joining strips.

And to cap it all they have dispensed with the customer services desk, if
you want help you have to go on the hunt for someone, who usually knows less
than you do.

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY is
going and getting the stuff.



Always, and these supermarkets are among the least efficient way to
procure items.

It's much more time effective to use specialist merchants plus on line
suppliers such as Screwfix, but these do require some forward planning.

The only case where DIY supermarkets are useful is on Saturday
afternoon through to Sunday afternoon if one needs to buy an assortment
of forgotten items to complete a project. There is a reasonable
chance of a one-stop shop.

.... but the Screwfix trade counters are open then as well if you have
one near you.

--
Chris Green

On 2007-09-01 21:58:05 +0100, said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-09-01 20:43:09 +0100, "R D S" said:

The only case where DIY supermarkets are useful is on Saturday
afternoon through to Sunday afternoon if one needs to buy an assortment
of forgotten items to complete a project. There is a reasonable
chance of a one-stop shop.

... but the Screwfix trade counters are open then as well if you have
one near you.

True, but that can take even longer, although generally they don't have
screaming kids running around.

On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:09:44 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

True, but that can take even longer, although generally they don't have
screaming kids running around.

Nor the shop assistants yelling into the Tannoy microphone...

Geo

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:07:12 GMT, "George"
wrote:


"R D S" wrote in message

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY
is
going and getting the stuff.





That the only shed you have in your locality?

3 B&Q's
2 Focus
2 Taskers DIY
2 Homebase
1 Rapid Hardware
1 Screwfix

All within a 5 to 6 mile radius


Gawd - the traffic must be hell where you live! But hey, that's a
great solution for the OP: move house and home!

Yes the "gathering" phase I agree is the most frustrating. What makes
it worse is I suffer from the little know complaint of
selective-homo-magnetitis (SHM). Basically when I'd like a liitle
company (natter about this n that maybe) - there's no bugge* about.
Otoh should I want a bit of peace quiet and SPACE (eg when visiting
B&Q) then the entire world just happens to be looking for EXACTLY the
stuff I'm looking for too. Amazing. Usually SHM sufferers are
especially attractive to large families with the noisiest kids or
clueless beanpole-height gormless rubber-neckers who of course always
stand 1mm directly behind one and peer to one side then the other like
some kind of techo-stalker. Any attempt to move looks either like
giving in or an invitation to "string along" to the next place of
interest. I could go on but it's all too horrible.

"jake" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:07:12 GMT, "George"
wrote:


"R D S" wrote in message

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of
DIY
is
going and getting the stuff.





That the only shed you have in your locality?

3 B&Q's
2 Focus
2 Taskers DIY
2 Homebase
1 Rapid Hardware
1 Screwfix

All within a 5 to 6 mile radius


Gawd - the traffic must be hell where you live! But hey, that's a
great solution for the OP: move house and home!


Funny you should say that... a short walk takes me to the corner handymans
store. :-)

I forgot...
Wickes
And Gems DIY although this is more of a small builders yards.

wrote:

... but the Screwfix trade counters are open then as well if you have
one near you.

But dont you find it is one of the most depressing places to buy things?

The only time I go now is at 8am on a Saturday morning, otherwise it is
near certain that I'd be in there for half an hour, as there is a queue
to pay, then a queue to collect.
To say the staff are slow is an understatement.

I'd also agree about the local B+Q depot, I went in last week for 3
things - Sandtex red brick paint, Sodium Chlorate powder weedkiller, and
some sandpaper.
They only had the sandpaper in stock, which was £2.25 for 5 sheets of
wet and dry - rather expensive IMO. The weedkiller range was certainly
aimed at the consumer end, nearly all on display were the ready mixed
solutions, with a price roughly double the cost of the powders, though
no powder in stock anyway.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On 2007-09-02 07:01:39 +0100, (A.Lee) said:

wrote:

... but the Screwfix trade counters are open then as well if you have
one near you.

But dont you find it is one of the most depressing places to buy things?

The only time I go now is at 8am on a Saturday morning, otherwise it is
near certain that I'd be in there for half an hour, as there is a queue
to pay, then a queue to collect.

Yes the staff are trained at Argos. The only thing is that they
don't have bling jewelery as yet.



To say the staff are slow is an understatement.


Even the slowest of the builders merchants manages better.

On 2007-09-02 00:21:13 +0100, Owain said:

R D S wrote:
And to cap it all they have dispensed with the customer services desk,
if you want help you have to go on the hunt for someone, who usually
knows less than you do.

Just find the nearest telephone and press the "page" button...

Owain

But then you have to put in a high voice, and shout the words "Customer
service code 99 aisle 27" such that it can't be made out. Then
nothing happens anyway, just like when they do it for real.

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-09-02 07:01:39 +0100, (A.Lee) said:
wrote:

... but the Screwfix trade counters are open then as well if you
have
one near you.
But dont you find it is one of the most depressing places to buy
things?
The only time I go now is at 8am on a Saturday morning, otherwise it
is
near certain that I'd be in there for half an hour, as there is a queue
to pay, then a queue to collect.

Yes the staff are trained at Argos. The only thing is that they
don't have bling jewelery as yet.

To say the staff are slow is an understatement.

Even the slowest of the builders merchants manages better.

Maybe it's because the Screwfix counter near me only opened a couple of
months ago but they seem quite efficient atm.

--
Si

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-09-01 20:43:09 +0100, "R D S" said:

Our local B&Q Warehouse is the size of two football pitches
apparently. It doesn't really matter because they hardly have anything
you can
buy, just a load of stuff you can look at.

And if they do have it the place is so big you can't bloody find it.

SNIP
I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part
of DIY is going and getting the stuff.

Its bad enough with your own DIY, it can be a bloody nightmare as a
handyman. I carry loads of bits & pieces on the van but still have to visit
B&Q or Wickes at least once a day.

Always, and these supermarkets are among the least efficient way to
procure items.

It's much more time effective to use specialist merchants plus on line
suppliers such as Screwfix, but these do require some forward
planning.
The only case where DIY supermarkets are useful is on Saturday
afternoon through to Sunday afternoon if one needs to buy an
assortment of forgotten items to complete a project. There is a
reasonable chance of a one-stop shop.

Alas they are more or less essential to me because I often don't know what
I'm going to need till I'm on site.

Wickes is my favourite port of call, B&Q next (except on OAP Wednesdays) as
we have one at each end of the towns. Homebase is a last resort with me
because of the prices. Bought a small sheet of 12mm chipboard in there last
week, twice the price of Wickes and terrible quality - crumbled as it was
sawn.

Alas no Screwfix depot nearby.

Still, at least I'm earning an hourly rate whilst shopping for the customer.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"George" wrote in message
...

"R D S" wrote in message

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY
is
going and getting the stuff.





That the only shed you have in your locality?

3 B&Q's
2 Focus
2 Taskers DIY
2 Homebase
1 Rapid Hardware
1 Screwfix

We had a Wickes but it morphed into TK Maxx at some point.
Focus is shutting down.
There are a few little local places but they don't have a lot and aren't as
keen with opening times.
Saying that I ended up ordering my joining strips locally when B&Q didn't
have them, if I need to go pick them up I may as well get them from
somewhere nearer.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-09-01 21:58:05 +0100, said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-09-01 20:43:09 +0100, "R D S" said:

The only case where DIY supermarkets are useful is on Saturday
afternoon through to Sunday afternoon if one needs to buy an assortment
of forgotten items to complete a project. There is a reasonable
chance of a one-stop shop.

... but the Screwfix trade counters are open then as well if you have
one near you.

True, but that can take even longer, although generally they don't have
screaming kids running around.

Oh the ****ing kids!

Why do their parents let them mix up all the boxes of screws etc?

I'm not going to try and defend my BnQ Warehouse that I work at.
But I will give you a picture from the trenches. I work the night
shift, 10pm till 7am, so I have to deal with stock replenishment. Oh
and the ever wonderful local area managers and their bright ideas. We
had our customer service desk taken out too, because it was felt that
the staff should be on the shop floor mingling with the customers and
not have to have the customers come to them.
We had about 6 months ago, a new layout put in the paint section. This
included a shiny new paint mixing desk and an entirely new look to the
way the paints were laid out. This took three weeks to do. They had to
come back and start again when they realized that they had mixed up
2005s plans with new plans. As a result, paint tins wouldn't fit on
the shelf unless you laid them on their side and on some shelves they
were expecting two dozen cans of paint in a space that would only take
a dozen. We don't put the racking back together either, they have
specialist contractors for the job which managed to spill most of the
paint they were moving and we are left to put the paint back
afterwards.
Now a rant about customers. I don't get to meet any because of my
hours. But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards.
Tiles is my department, so to speak and I think I spend half my night
shift tidying up broken, torn boxes. Also having to round up the loose
tiles and trying to figure out which boxes they belong in is a time
consuming headache. If you want a sample tile to steal go to Topps
Tiles, they'll happily give you what your looking for. Otherwise, buy
a box, take it home, play with the light & shade and if you still
don't like it then bring it back. It's what the returns policy is for.
So if your wondering we hardly have anything stock it might be down to
the fact we are so damm busy fixing damages and making the store look
presentable is that we haven't had time to pull stuff out of bulk
stock location to fill the shelves.


I think I've ranted enough for now, if I think of anything else I'll
get back to you.

Oh and to top it all off our store is going under a massive refit with
the entire layout of the store being turned on its head. Oh goody for
the night crew.

"TrailRat" wrote in message

I think I've ranted enough for now, if I think of anything else I'll
get back to you.

Oh and to top it all off our store is going under a massive refit with
the entire layout of the store being turned on its head. Oh goody for
the night crew.


All the jobs I had in the past were aquired mainly because I had the ability
to use my loaf.

quote
"But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards."

Have you never thought about putting a display out along the shelves
informing customers not to tear the boxes open as there is a sample board on
display for the tiles.

It ain't rocket science stacking shelves.

In message .com,
TrailRat wrote

But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards.

What the sample boards don't show is the 'quality' of the tiles. For
example, are the tiles glazed on the edges? The sample boards are
usually suspended above top shelf so that you cannot see from 30 feet
away the surface finish.

With tiles the corners or edges of the tiles are often smashed because
they have been mishandled at some time. It is reasonable for customers
to check for damage BEFORE purchase.

There is also the problem in B&Q that items returned are put back on the
shelves unchecked even though the original purchaser has removed the
small part he wanted before getting his refund.

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:00:13 GMT, "George"
wrote:


"TrailRat" wrote in message

I think I've ranted enough for now, if I think of anything else I'll
get back to you.

Oh and to top it all off our store is going under a massive refit with
the entire layout of the store being turned on its head. Oh goody for
the night crew.


All the jobs I had in the past were aquired mainly because I had the ability
to use my loaf.

quote
"But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards."

Have you never thought about putting a display out along the shelves
informing customers not to tear the boxes open as there is a sample board on
display for the tiles.

It ain't rocket science stacking shelves.



You are an objectionable ****.

"pete" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 15:00:13 GMT, "George"
wrote:


"TrailRat" wrote in message

I think I've ranted enough for now, if I think of anything else I'll
get back to you.

Oh and to top it all off our store is going under a massive refit with
the entire layout of the store being turned on its head. Oh goody for
the night crew.


All the jobs I had in the past were aquired mainly because I had the
ability
to use my loaf.

quote
"But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards."

Have you never thought about putting a display out along the shelves
informing customers not to tear the boxes open as there is a sample board
on
display for the tiles.

It ain't rocket science stacking shelves.



You are an objectionable ****.


Oh! **** its back.

"TrailRat" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm not going to try and defend my BnQ Warehouse that I work at.
But I will give you a picture from the trenches.

Nice to hear from the other side.

Cheers,

Rick

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message .com,
TrailRat wrote

But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards.

What the sample boards don't show is the 'quality' of the tiles. For
example, are the tiles glazed on the edges? The sample boards are usually
suspended above top shelf so that you cannot see from 30 feet away the
surface finish.

With tiles the corners or edges of the tiles are often smashed because
they have been mishandled at some time. It is reasonable for customers to
check for damage BEFORE purchase.

There is also the problem in B&Q that items returned are put back on the
shelves unchecked even though the original purchaser has removed the small
part he wanted before getting his refund.

I hear what he is saying but as you say...
I just bought some cupboard doors, all individually cardboard wrapped and
approximately 1/3 rd of them have dings in the edges.

On 2007-09-02 18:47:03 +0100, "R D S" said:


"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message .com,
TrailRat wrote

But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards.

What the sample boards don't show is the 'quality' of the tiles. For
example, are the tiles glazed on the edges? The sample boards are usually
suspended above top shelf so that you cannot see from 30 feet away the
surface finish.

With tiles the corners or edges of the tiles are often smashed because
they have been mishandled at some time. It is reasonable for customers to
check for damage BEFORE purchase.

There is also the problem in B&Q that items returned are put back on the
shelves unchecked even though the original purchaser has removed the small
part he wanted before getting his refund.

I hear what he is saying but as you say...
I just bought some cupboard doors, all individually cardboard wrapped and
approximately 1/3 rd of them have dings in the edges.

I've had the same thing happen.

The solution is to return them, ask for replacements with the
replacements being opened in front of you and a voucher to cover the
time and fuel for the exercise.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-09-02 18:47:03 +0100, "R D S" said:


"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message .com,
TrailRat wrote

But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards.

What the sample boards don't show is the 'quality' of the tiles. For
example, are the tiles glazed on the edges? The sample boards are
usually
suspended above top shelf so that you cannot see from 30 feet away the
surface finish.

With tiles the corners or edges of the tiles are often smashed because
they have been mishandled at some time. It is reasonable for customers
to
check for damage BEFORE purchase.

There is also the problem in B&Q that items returned are put back on
the
shelves unchecked even though the original purchaser has removed the
small
part he wanted before getting his refund.

I hear what he is saying but as you say...
I just bought some cupboard doors, all individually cardboard wrapped
and
approximately 1/3 rd of them have dings in the edges.

I've had the same thing happen.

The solution is to return them, ask for replacements with the
replacements being opened in front of you and a voucher to cover the
time and fuel for the exercise.



I bought a marsbar last night it was damaged should I have taken it back and
asked for voucher to cover the cost of my time and shoe wear? :-)

On 2007-09-02 19:59:44 +0100, "George" said:

I bought a marsbar last night it was damaged should I have taken it back and
asked for voucher to cover the cost of my time and shoe wear? :-)

If you are eating Mars bars then you are poisoning yourself anyway so
it's somewhat hard to blame the shop. They were actually doing you a
favour in that you will have eaten one less of them.

In the case of a set of doors of cost probably in the hundreds of
pounds and in their packaging, it is reasonable to expect them to be
perfect. The first time. Not dinged and dented. Time and fuel
aren't free, so it's completely reasonable to expect the store to
recompense those as though the goods had been correct in the first
place.

On 2007-09-02 17:01:01 +0100, Owain said:

George wrote:
"But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards."
Have you never thought about putting a display out along the shelves
informing customers not to tear the boxes open as there is a sample board on
display for the tiles.

And another notice "please do not crap in the display toilets as
customer facilities are available"

Owain

True words are spoken in jest. I saw a little girl in Homebase
doing just that a few weeks ago.

"George" wrote in message
k...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-09-02 18:47:03 +0100, "R D S" said:


"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message .com,
TrailRat wrote

But I want to know why on earth do you people feel it is
necessary to tear open boxes of tiles just to have a look at one of
them when BnQ spend hundreds on perfectly adequate sample boards.

What the sample boards don't show is the 'quality' of the tiles. For
example, are the tiles glazed on the edges? The sample boards are
usually
suspended above top shelf so that you cannot see from 30 feet away the
surface finish.

With tiles the corners or edges of the tiles are often smashed because
they have been mishandled at some time. It is reasonable for customers
to
check for damage BEFORE purchase.

There is also the problem in B&Q that items returned are put back on
the
shelves unchecked even though the original purchaser has removed the
small
part he wanted before getting his refund.

I hear what he is saying but as you say...
I just bought some cupboard doors, all individually cardboard wrapped
and
approximately 1/3 rd of them have dings in the edges.

I've had the same thing happen.

The solution is to return them, ask for replacements with the
replacements being opened in front of you and a voucher to cover the
time and fuel for the exercise.



I bought a marsbar last night it was damaged should I have taken it back
and
asked for voucher to cover the cost of my time and shoe wear? :-)


No, as it makes no bloody difference when you eat it.

A brand new kitchen however, with dings on the edges of just under half of
the doors is a different matter, wouldn't you agree?

In article ,
"R D S" writes:
I hear what he is saying but as you say...
I just bought some cupboard doors, all individually cardboard wrapped and
approximately 1/3 rd of them have dings in the edges.

That's one advantage of buying from IKEA. In all the kitchen parts
(probably hundreds if I add them all up), there was only one marked
item, and end-panel, which being reversible didn't matter.

When I wanted a sink, I couldn't find one in B&Q which wasn't dinged.
Went back to IKEA, and got a perfect one first time. Keeping the
customers away from the stock certainly helps, but staff can be just
as much to blame -- customers don't reverse forklifts into a stack of
kitchen worktops wrecking the lot in one go, as Wickes staff seem to
do only too often.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
. Keeping the
customers away from the stock certainly helps, but staff can be just
as much to blame -- customers don't reverse forklifts into a stack of
kitchen worktops wrecking the lot in one go, as Wickes staff seem to
do only too often.

Ah. The Wickes blind forklift driver! We have one of those in Chatham!


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I will admit that you are better off getting things like kitchen
cupboards and sink units at IKEA. Their stock handling procedures and
wider aisles reduce damages a whole lot better than any BnQ store
would. Also IKEA are also more than likely have the item in stock.

On 1 Sep, 20:58, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-09-01 20:43:09 +0100, "R D S" said:





Our local B&Q Warehouse is the size of two football pitches apparently.

It doesn't really matter because they hardly have anything you can buy, just
a load of stuff you can look at.

And if they do have it the place is so big you can't bloody find it.

We decided on some kitchen unit doors. They were special order and were
going to take 3 weeks to come in.
So we chose some they did have, but they didn't have drawer fronts or
worktop joining strips.

And to cap it all they have dispensed with the customer services desk, if
you want help you have to go on the hunt for someone, who usually knows less
than you do.

I have concluded that the most time consuming and frustrating part of DIY is
going and getting the stuff.

Always, and these supermarkets are among the least efficient way to
procure items.

It's much more time effective to use specialist merchants plus on line
suppliers such as Screwfix, but these do require some forward planning.

The only case where DIY supermarkets are useful is on Saturday
afternoon through to Sunday afternoon if one needs to buy an assortment
of forgotten items to complete a project. There is a reasonable
chance of a one-stop shop.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm a lucky one - B&Q is within 100yards of the Screwfix counter, so
(being a complete numpty) I go to B&Q first to check out what I want,
then go to Screwfix once I know the name of the item!

Matt

On 02/09/2007 21:20 Andrew Gabriel wrote:

That's one advantage of buying from IKEA. In all the kitchen parts
(probably hundreds if I add them all up), there was only one marked
item, and end-panel, which being reversible didn't matter.

Unfortunately, that hasn't been my recent experience.

Items bought from Ikea over a number of years have generally been damage
free but the units for two kitchens and two utility rooms bought over
the last three or so months have been very different with multiple
examples of chips, dents and broken panels despite taking great care in
transporting and building them.

The materials used for their manufacture seem to have changed and, when
I asked if they had changed their supplier(s), they confirmed they had.
The sooner they return to their previous arrangements the better.

If you need to take something back due to quaity problems they'll give
you up to £5 in cash depending on distance (14p per mile IIRC). More
than that and you have to write in. However, it's still a pain when it
comes to wasted time.

--
Frank
(Beware of spam trap - remove the negative)