..
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr.... apparently
not.

Two smaller Generacs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cJX8M2VvKk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen Guy yaks
until 0:50

Here's a quiet one, but much larger (an Onan, apparently):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...N3sZe9xGo&NR=1

The Generac I'm looking at is their smallest. A few brands of the approx 7
kW size are he
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....ick_search.php

The Generac CorePower 5837 is the cheapest, lightest of the bunch. It uses
a single cylinder approx 400c engine, at 3600 rpm.

The Briggs/Stratton is TWO cylinder, but apparently noisier, from the specs
(81 db vs. 62 db -- if those db are accurate), and from a cupla reviews --
if you can trust reviews.
I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just "unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --
is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?


Any experience with these types of units, brands? Recommendations?
--
EA

Existential Angst wrote:

.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr.... apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.


I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just "unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.


I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.


Any experience with these types of units, brands? Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr....
apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

CY: Neat, didn't know that.


I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just
"unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.

CY: Years ago, I read of a Tecumseh "lo tone" muffler that helped a lot.


I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

CY: I've heard of people killed by running a generator indoors, even "in the
cellar with the door open".

is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.

CY: Years ago, BS engines used to thread to the muffler via 1/2 inch pipe
thread.


Any experience with these types of units, brands? Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

CY: I just had a virus, and lost hard drive, and a lot of emails. So, I
can't quote my source. I did read one time from a woman who used generator
for power, for well and such on her farm. The consumer model Coleman only
lasted a few hundred hours. Typical consumer with a couple hours a year, a
machine designed for 200 hours is plenty. She finally bought a Honda, which
lasted a lot longer.

On Dec 20, 10:49*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr....
apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

CY: Neat, didn't know that.

I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just
"unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.

CY: Years ago, I read of a Tecumseh "lo tone" muffler that helped a lot.



I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

CY: I've heard of people killed by running a generator indoors, even "in the
cellar with the door open".

is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? *IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.

*CY: Years ago, BS engines used to thread to the muffler via 1/2 inch pipe
thread.



Any experience with these types of units, brands? *Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

CY: I just had a virus, and lost hard drive, and a lot of emails. So, I
can't quote my source. I did read one time from a woman who used generator
for power, for well and such on her farm. The consumer model Coleman only
lasted a few hundred hours. Typical consumer with a couple hours a year, a
machine designed for 200 hours is plenty. *She finally bought a Honda, which
lasted a lot longer.

1800 RPM is far quieter than 3600 RPM..

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...
...
is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?
...
I made a free-standing external generator muffler from a 2" to 1-1/4"
reducer, a short 1-1/4" nipple and a 2' length of fiberglass pipe insulation
that hose-clamps to the nipple. It mounts on 3/8-16 threaded rod via a pipe
hanger clamp.

Making it separate avoids any wear or damage from the vibration of the
engine. It's very effective at quieting the exhaust putt-putt but does
nothing for the loud mechanical noise which I think radiates from the
cooling fins. Maybe a bead of silicone caulk down the corners will help?

The sound of an unloaded Honda EU2000 hardly changes if I cup my hand over
the exhaust. I checked because I'm trying to quiet my Coleman genny to
approximate it with a box made from fireproof acoustic ceiling tile, open on
the back side. So far it's promising but not perfect.

jsw

On Dec 20, 10:16*am, "Pete C." wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:

.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr.... * apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

I wouldn't expect the same engine to have any significant
difference in noise based on what fuel you put in it. You
do get about 20% less power out of the same engine if
it runs on nat gas versus gasoline. That should equate to
some difference in noise, but doubt it's significant.



I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just "unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.



Not sure how much of the noise comes from where.
I've have seen some Honda portable generators though
that were very quiet compared to low end Chinese ones.





I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

This was discussed here a couple months ago. Someone
posted the requirements for indoor generators for their
location, ie fireproofing, venting, detection, etc and it was so
tough that for all practical purposes
you could forget about it for a typical residential application.
Don't know what other locations codes are, but I'd
suspect it isn't going to be easy. But before going down
the in-house road, I would check the local codes.





is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? *IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.



Any experience with these types of units, brands? *Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

A neighbor here had a $7K Generac that was about 5 years old. It ran
for 4 hours during the hurricane in August, then quit. Company that
installed it told him it was shot and not worth fixing.

If I were looking for emergency power, I'd go with one of the
portable units. There are some that are available that run on
nat gas. Or there are kits available to make most of them into
either permanent nat gas or even tri-fuel units that can use
gasoline, nat gas, or propane. One of those together with
an inlet and lockout breaker arrangement from Interlockit
is what I would use. You can have the inlet installed outside,
nat gas line available and just move the generator there
when needed. And if that generator fails, you can buy a
whole new one for a fraction of the price of the standby
units. The generator is also available for other use if
needed. I could put the above together for $1000

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
...
CY: Years ago, BS engines used to thread to the muffler via 1/2 inch pipe
thread.
...

I have one of those old engines on my 1950's reel lawnmower. I couldn't find
the proper muffler so I screwed in a stainless gas appliance flex hose and
ran it around to a larger generic replacement muffler. The exhaust note is
low pitched like a car and barely audible above the mechanical noise.

jsw

Air cooled versus liquid cooled has naught to do with what kind of fuel it
takes.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

I wouldn't expect the same engine to have any significant
difference in noise based on what fuel you put in it. You
do get about 20% less power out of the same engine if
it runs on nat gas versus gasoline. That should equate to
some difference in noise, but doubt it's significant.

Reel good solution.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...

I have one of those old engines on my 1950's reel lawnmower. I couldn't find
the proper muffler so I screwed in a stainless gas appliance flex hose and
ran it around to a larger generic replacement muffler. The exhaust note is
low pitched like a car and barely audible above the mechanical noise.

jsw

On Dec 20, 11:53*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Air cooled versus liquid cooled has naught to do with what kind of fuel it
takes.

I don't think anyone here said that it did have
anything to do with it.





Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...



They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

I wouldn't expect the same engine to have any significant
difference in noise based on what fuel you put in it. * You
do get about 20% less power out of the same engine if
it runs on nat gas versus gasoline. *That should equate to
some difference in noise, but doubt it's significant.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:16:49 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:

.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr.... apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.


I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just "unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.


I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.


Any experience with these types of units, brands? Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.


Excellent summmation!

Gunner, with Onan and Lincoln and Honda gensets


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 08:05:14 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 20, 10:16*am, "Pete C." wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:

.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr.... * apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

I wouldn't expect the same engine to have any significant
difference in noise based on what fuel you put in it. You
do get about 20% less power out of the same engine if
it runs on nat gas versus gasoline. That should equate to
some difference in noise, but doubt it's significant.

The fuel isn't going to matter a lot - it's still getting compressed
and ignited, and while Propane and NG have a slower and more stable
flame front it's still combustion.

I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just "unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.

Not sure how much of the noise comes from where.
I've have seen some Honda portable generators though
that were very quiet compared to low end Chinese ones.

There is always some noise from the cylinder walls and other
mechanical items on the generator - the exhaust only drowns them out
because they don't spend much on the mufflers. Why bother, when they
are selling to a price point and not a noise level point.

I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

This was discussed here a couple months ago. Someone
posted the requirements for indoor generators for their
location, ie fireproofing, venting, detection, etc and it was so
tough that for all practical purposes
you could forget about it for a typical residential application.
Don't know what other locations codes are, but I'd
suspect it isn't going to be easy. But before going down
the in-house road, I would check the local codes.

If you want to see for yourself, call your local Phone Company and
go get a tour of their generator room, that one has to meet the local
building codes. It's complicated, but not beyond a resourceful RCM'er
to set up.

It's in a fireproof room (5/8" 2-hour Drywall) with 2-Hour rated doors
and automatic closers, etc - Just like your garage at home.

They have large vent grilles on the exterior wall, low and high, for
cross ventilation. Just like your garage at home, but bigger and
there are exhaust fans to make sure.

There is usually an exterior door so the Firemen have a way in without
letting the fire into the building, Just like...

There is an exhaust pipe leading outside to get rid of it up high - on
the wall or roof, away from other air intakes. Just like... if you
installed an exhaust hose system to work on your cars inside in the
winter.

There are fire sprinklers, just like you can install in a house if you
choose to - and they're starting to require them in new homes.

And several fire extinguishers rated for the use and sized for the
fuel load, and all the people working there get periodic live-fire
training to use them effectively. You can get your local Fire Station
to teach your family and friends the basics, then they hand you a
charged extinguisher, light off a quart of gasoline in a steel pan,
and say "Here, your turn!" and you find out how to do it for real.

The fuel source is piped in remotely to a 5 or 10 Gallon Day Tank next
to the generator, and a bare minimum of other flammables are stored in
that room, so a fire in the generator goes "Pfft!" and out - it
doesn't have a lot of fuel to take out the whole house. You do the
same thing, the Gasoline cans are in a separate "Flammables" locker
either outside (I have a steel shed) or clear on the other end of the
garage.

They have a way to route cooling air straight into the radiator and/or
a way to route hot cooling air out. Or they have the radiator remote
mounted on the roof.

is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? *IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.

The ones I've looked at have an oval flange with two screws holding
the USFS Approved Spark Screen over the exhaust outlet - making a
flange that fits or getting a spare from the maker, then adapting it
to connect flexible metal exhaust hose to a rigid exhaust pipe headed
(up or out) is your RCM Skills Test.

Any experience with these types of units, brands? *Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

A neighbor here had a $7K Generac that was about 5 years old. It ran
for 4 hours during the hurricane in August, then quit. Company that
installed it told him it was shot and not worth fixing.

Company that installed it should have their butts sued off for
forgetting to put in the motor oil...

Even the cheapest should be good for 1,000 to 2,500 hours if treated
halfway decent.

If I were looking for emergency power, I'd go with one of the
portable units. There are some that are available that run on
nat gas. Or there are kits available to make most of them into
either permanent nat gas or even tri-fuel units that can use
gasoline, nat gas, or propane. One of those together with
an inlet and lockout breaker arrangement from Interlockit
is what I would use. You can have the inlet installed outside,
nat gas line available and just move the generator there
when needed. And if that generator fails, you can buy a
whole new one for a fraction of the price of the standby
units. The generator is also available for other use if
needed. I could put the above together for $1000

You do get what you pay for. If I was going through that much trouble
to install it in a house, I'd be looking for a fairly recent
Commercial model permanent mount diesel plant.

The Contractor model portables are built down to a price, not up to a
service specification they have to meet or exceed. Sometimes you can
get a good deal on a refurbished Commercial unit for a song.

-- Bruce --

wrote in message
...
On Dec 20, 10:16 am, "Pete C." wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:

.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr....
apparently
not.

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

I wouldn't expect the same engine to have any significant
difference in noise based on what fuel you put in it. You
do get about 20% less power out of the same engine if
it runs on nat gas versus gasoline. That should equate to
some difference in noise, but doubt it's significant.



I'm wondering how much of the noise is exhaust noise, how much is just
"unit
noise" -- engine clanking, fans, etc.

Most noise from a small air cooled engine is from other than the
exhaust, thus a good muffler does little to quiet them.



Not sure how much of the noise comes from where.
I've have seen some Honda portable generators though
that were very quiet compared to low end Chinese ones.





I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of
neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

This was discussed here a couple months ago. Someone
posted the requirements for indoor generators for their
location, ie fireproofing, venting, detection, etc and it was so
tough that for all practical purposes
you could forget about it for a typical residential application.
Don't know what other locations codes are, but I'd
suspect it isn't going to be easy. But before going down
the in-house road, I would check the local codes.





is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.



Any experience with these types of units, brands? Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

A neighbor here had a $7K Generac that was about 5 years old. It ran
for 4 hours during the hurricane in August, then quit. Company that
installed it told him it was shot and not worth fixing.

If I were looking for emergency power, I'd go with one of the
portable units. There are some that are available that run on
nat gas. Or there are kits available to make most of them into
either permanent nat gas or even tri-fuel units that can use
gasoline, nat gas, or propane. One of those together with
an inlet and lockout breaker arrangement from Interlockit
is what I would use. You can have the inlet installed outside,
nat gas line available and just move the generator there
when needed. And if that generator fails, you can buy a
whole new one for a fraction of the price of the standby
units. The generator is also available for other use if
needed. I could put the above together for $1000

================================================== ==========

That is an excellent idea..... I never thought to look at portables AND
natural gas!

The above Generac: was it $7K or 7 kW?
Their CorePower 7 kW unit (#5837) is $1799 in most places. Backordered,
tho.
Claims 62 db, which actually IS pretty quiet, altho those videos certainly
don't reflect that.

I didn't know the life of these smaller units was so short. They do have
cast iron sleeves, 4-stroke engines with an oil filter. I would hope that
would be good for more than a cupla hundred hours!!

Here are four tri-fuel units, not so cheap:
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....ick_search.php
The cheapest tri-fuel is a 5500 W Winco... $1799, what a 7 kW nat gas
Generac is -- and is almost as heavy!! 212 vs 250# .
Tri-fuel, in these portables, is the only way to get the nat gas option.
But, by way of comparison, a Honda EU6500 (also 5500 watts) is a whopping
$3929 (same site)

BUT, it is portable, proly simpler, easier to fool around with things like
mufflers, etc.
Too bad the price is so up there.
Also, this portable is considerably less efficient, and the db rating is
about 10 db higher than the generac.... according to the above website.

So mebbe the generac is the better way to go, as there is so little
selection on nat gas portable units.

Unless I could get a rel. low priced quiet unit, and buy an aftermarket
conversion.... which is admittedly taxing my abilities.....

http://www.ehow.com/how_5011387_conv...tural-gas.html
for the general idea,

and then here's a kit,
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...FQXd4Aodu30OoA

Heh, so I looked up the Honda eu2000i, which is a whole 1600 W for almost
$1,000, plus the conversoin ($179), plus my priceless labor, plus the
Will-it-Work factor.... figger an easy $1200, vs. $1800 for 7 kW, AND
automatic start etc etc (incl transfer switch). And as above, the Honda
5500 is over double the Winco price. Hmmmmm......

By way of further comparison, HD has three gasoline portables in stock, a
B&S 5500 W for $799 (!), a Husky 5000 W for $599, and a Powermate 3000 W for
$349 -- fractions of what Honda is asking. The B&S and Husky are electric
start. If I could get a nat gas kit for these, I'd be a happy camper.

This place seems to have kits for B&S:
http://www.propane-generators.com/a-...20kit%20prices
For dedicated nat gas, about $150.
So, yeah, a big-azz generator converted to nat gas for under $1 K !!

I hope to god this B&S is reasonably quiet. As mentioned by others, mebbe
an auto muffler would help -- and a soundproofed BOX!! LOL.

Still, the 7 kW nat gas Generac, for $1800, ain't that bad, no fuss no
muss.... we'll see what happens.....

Man, this thing turned into a whole g-d REPORT!!! Mebbe someone else will
find it useful.
--
EA

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:53:13 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Air cooled versus liquid cooled has naught to do with what kind of fuel it
takes.

True enough..but the water jacket of a liquid cooled engine tends to
muffle a fair amount of the internal noise. As you may have noticed..a
full sized car or truck motor is much quieter than the average lawn
mower.

Not all the noise comes out of the exhaust pipe.. far from it.


Gunner

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

wrote in message
...

They are as loud as any typical small air cooled engine. If you want
quiet you have to move up to a commercial grade liquid cooled model.

I wouldn't expect the same engine to have any significant
difference in noise based on what fuel you put in it. You
do get about 20% less power out of the same engine if
it runs on nat gas versus gasoline. That should equate to
some difference in noise, but doubt it's significant.



One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:


trim

I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of neighbors) --

Inside is a bad idea unless you build it into a sealed externally vented
space with CO detectors adjacent.

This was discussed here a couple months ago. Someone
posted the requirements for indoor generators for their
location, ie fireproofing, venting, detection, etc and it was so
tough that for all practical purposes
you could forget about it for a typical residential application.
Don't know what other locations codes are, but I'd
suspect it isn't going to be easy. But before going down
the in-house road, I would check the local codes.

If you want to see for yourself, call your local Phone Company and
go get a tour of their generator room, that one has to meet the local
building codes. It's complicated, but not beyond a resourceful RCM'er
to set up.

It's in a fireproof room (5/8" 2-hour Drywall) with 2-Hour rated doors
and automatic closers, etc - Just like your garage at home.

They have large vent grilles on the exterior wall, low and high, for
cross ventilation. Just like your garage at home, but bigger and
there are exhaust fans to make sure.

There is usually an exterior door so the Firemen have a way in without
letting the fire into the building, Just like...

There is an exhaust pipe leading outside to get rid of it up high - on
the wall or roof, away from other air intakes. Just like... if you
installed an exhaust hose system to work on your cars inside in the
winter.

There are fire sprinklers, just like you can install in a house if you
choose to - and they're starting to require them in new homes.

And several fire extinguishers rated for the use and sized for the
fuel load, and all the people working there get periodic live-fire
training to use them effectively. You can get your local Fire Station
to teach your family and friends the basics, then they hand you a
charged extinguisher, light off a quart of gasoline in a steel pan,
and say "Here, your turn!" and you find out how to do it for real.

The fuel source is piped in remotely to a 5 or 10 Gallon Day Tank next
to the generator, and a bare minimum of other flammables are stored in
that room, so a fire in the generator goes "Pfft!" and out - it
doesn't have a lot of fuel to take out the whole house. You do the
same thing, the Gasoline cans are in a separate "Flammables" locker
either outside (I have a steel shed) or clear on the other end of the
garage.

They have a way to route cooling air straight into the radiator and/or
a way to route hot cooling air out. Or they have the radiator remote
mounted on the roof.


Most of our DCs have the generators outside the building in a separate
area surrounded by high concrete walls and open at the top for
ventilation in addition to large louvered panels on the walls. Fuel
(diesel) is in separate underground tanks or above ground CONVAULTs.
Some of the city DCs do have in basement or on roof generators, but
where there is room the separate building / enclosure is less expensive.


is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal flex hose to a
tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to clamp to?

Go look at the display unit in any 'Depot or Lowe's. I believe there is
a stub of tailpipe sticking out of the housing.

The ones I've looked at have an oval flange with two screws holding
the USFS Approved Spark Screen over the exhaust outlet - making a
flange that fits or getting a spare from the maker, then adapting it
to connect flexible metal exhaust hose to a rigid exhaust pipe headed
(up or out) is your RCM Skills Test.

It's usually a dual setup, and the hole in the middle of the oval flange
is usually an NPT thread, 3/4" or 1" usually.


Any experience with these types of units, brands? Recommendations?

The home standby units are intended for just that, home standby. They
are not remotely close in construction to the commercial grade units
even in the sizes where the residential and commercial models overlap in
rated capacity. They will do the job, but will not last through very
many long outages, especially if loaded near capacity. If they are sized
to run perhaps half load, are well maintained and typical outages are
only a few hours duration they are fine. If you are in a rural area and
days long outages are common invest in a commercial grade unit.

A neighbor here had a $7K Generac that was about 5 years old. It ran
for 4 hours during the hurricane in August, then quit. Company that
installed it told him it was shot and not worth fixing.

Company that installed it should have their butts sued off for
forgetting to put in the motor oil...

Even the cheapest should be good for 1,000 to 2,500 hours if treated
halfway decent.

Agreed. If it only ran 4hr, it had not been maintained properly, or had
an awful lot of run time in those 5 years.


If I were looking for emergency power, I'd go with one of the
portable units. There are some that are available that run on
nat gas. Or there are kits available to make most of them into
either permanent nat gas or even tri-fuel units that can use
gasoline, nat gas, or propane. One of those together with
an inlet and lockout breaker arrangement from Interlockit
is what I would use. You can have the inlet installed outside,
nat gas line available and just move the generator there
when needed. And if that generator fails, you can buy a
whole new one for a fraction of the price of the standby
units. The generator is also available for other use if
needed. I could put the above together for $1000


A portable tri-fuel generator with a outdoor inlet connection to an
interlock kit, and a nat. gas quick connect with shutoff valve at the
outdoor location is an excellent option for a technically competent
homeowner. The tri-fuel gives an extra level of backup in the somewhat
unusual but not unheard of event of gas service interruption at the same
time as power interruption.

A permanently installed standby unit with automatic exerciser and
automatic transfer switch is still a better option for a non technically
competent homeowner, particularly for cases where there is life support
equipment needed by a resident (should have a UPS as well).


You do get what you pay for. If I was going through that much trouble
to install it in a house, I'd be looking for a fairly recent
Commercial model permanent mount diesel plant.

The Contractor model portables are built down to a price, not up to a
service specification they have to meet or exceed. Sometimes you can
get a good deal on a refurbished Commercial unit for a song.


With the hinky economy I bet you could get a good deal on a used top
grade (Multiquip WhisperWatt, Agrecko (sP?) etc.) towable silenced
diesel generator that you have to look at the meters on to tell if it's
running (yes, they are that quiet).

Existential Angst wrote:

I'm thinking of keeping mine inside (theft, consideration of
neighbors) -- is it generally straightforward to hose-clamp a metal
flex hose to a tailpipe? IS there a tailpipe on the small units to
clamp to?


Keeping the unit inside is a good idea. Until you need it. At that point,
roll it outside. Don't forget the thing was DESIGNED to work in inclement
weather.

The only thing a quiet model provides is the ability to better hear your
neighbors' generators.

Extending the tailpipe increases the back-pressure on the motor. If the
extension is long enough (and I have no idea how long "long enough" is), the
motor won't run.

"HeyBub" fired this volley in
m:

Extending the tailpipe increases the back-pressure on the motor. If
the extension is long enough (and I have no idea how long "long
enough" is), the motor won't run.

G
There's a reason there are "tuned" exhausts, and large diameter pipes.

G

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

There's a reason there are "tuned" exhausts, and large diameter pipes.

BTW... I wasn't being snide of facetious. How do you think large auto
repair facilities get exhaust fumes away from cars in service or being
tested?

They do it with LONG exhaust hoses designed to purpose.

The length isn't very important if it's: 1) large enough, or 2) tuned to
the rpm at which the engine is running.

I know this might not make sense unless you understand the geometry, but
running an exhaust pipe out to open air IS running it into a long exhaust
pipe. The particular "pipe" happens to be very, very large in diameter,
but also very, very long. And it doesn't cause the engine to stop.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

snide of facetious

OR facetious

G

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

There's a reason there are "tuned" exhausts, and large diameter pipes.

BTW... I wasn't being snide of facetious. How do you think large auto
repair facilities get exhaust fumes away from cars in service or being
tested?

They do it with LONG exhaust hoses designed to purpose.

The length isn't very important if it's: 1) large enough, or 2) tuned to
the rpm at which the engine is running.

I know this might not make sense unless you understand the geometry, but
running an exhaust pipe out to open air IS running it into a long exhaust
pipe. The particular "pipe" happens to be very, very large in diameter,
but also very, very long. And it doesn't cause the engine to stop.

And a suction fan.
--
EA



LLoyd

Barmy Scot, ur ye?

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

If use ye chimbley, beware the draft toves in the wabe, and recall,
"Twas bryllyg, and ye slythy toves
Did gyre and gymble in ye wabe:
All mimsy were ye borogoves;
And ye mome raths outgrabe."

--Vic

Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...


One big thing working against diesel is getting fuel during a power
outage. During the Halloween weekend snow storm, I had to drive ten
miles to find a gas station that had power and gas to fill my 20
gallons of cans. That station does not sell diesel. I don't know how
far I would have had to go to find a source.

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.


however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.


however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

A) Natural gas is your best option, unless you are in Califunny
or other earthshake environs. No fuel to spoil, and no
significant issues on storing enough fuel without the Fire
Marshal/your insurer unloading on you. If you've got gas, it
will start. MTBF of resi gas is in the decades.

Propane is the next in line; you can safely have a large tank &
it won't spoil as gasoline & Diesel do.

Gasoline is the worst possible fuel to store in quantity.

B) 3600 RPM air cooled engines are always going to be lots noisier
than an 1800 RPM water cooled unit.

C) It would be insane to put a unit inside. Build it a doghouse, lined
with cementboard.

D) If you want noise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYF89zPzjkg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hva6JYoiuw
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:11:53 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote:


The Contractor model portables are built down to a price, not up to a
service specification they have to meet or exceed. Sometimes you can
get a good deal on a refurbished Commercial unit for a song.

-- Bruce --


Indeed. Both Ebay and several of the online auctions houses can be a
very good source.

The secret of this sort of thing..is planning ahead. Make a list of
Stuff you need to buy in the next year or two. Then start looking and
checking for Stuff. When you find Stuff you need..make your bid/offer.
And ask around at yard sales and swap meets. Its surprising how much
Stuff is available from people going to swap meets. They may not have it
on their table..but they may have it at home.

When going to a Swap Meet..I put a sign on my back and with a magic
marker..Clearly Write...Wanted! and then a short list of the most
important things.

Same as at gun shows. Works surprisingly well.
Such as Proxibid and a number of others.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:24:35 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


By way of further comparison, HD has three gasoline portables in stock, a
B&S 5500 W for $799 (!), a Husky 5000 W for $599, and a Powermate 3000 W for
$349 -- fractions of what Honda is asking. The B&S and Husky are electric
start. If I could get a nat gas kit for these, I'd be a happy camper.


It should be mentioned as well...those units are far far apart from the
Honda in quality as well.

Shrug

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.


however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

"Stormin Mormon" writes:

Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.

#2 Heat has a lower Cetane rating, and lacks many additives,
such as the ones that lubed the injection pump.

I know the newer auto/truck pumps must cope, since the low
sulphur is no help. Not sure about gensets.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.


however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

DC = Data Center

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:36:34 -0800 (PST), rangerssuck
wrote:

On Dec 20, 7:01*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
.
I thought natural gas-powered standby generators would purr.... * apparently
not.

If you want to keep it real quit, you just have to get some of this
stuff - This serendipitously showed up in my email this afternoon:
http://www.pddnet.com/news-kit-not-o...udible-122011/

If I understand their analogy- it creates deafness, not silence. ????
I can do that with a set of headphones-- just have to hand them out to
anyone who doesn't like the noise.

Jim
[and yeah, the {NHL} Rangers suck-- but I like them anyway.]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 04:02:54 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.

Just don't let the Cops catch you with Red Dye Offroad Diesel /#2
Heating Oil in your car or truck's fuel tank when they pull you over
on the highway - you'll be in a big steaming heap of trouble. They
put the dye in it for a reason.

however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

DC = Data Center

The Telephone switchrooms with permanent generators and on-site fuel
tanks hire a company to come around once a year to add a huge dose of
Bio-Bor then drop in a pickup tube and pump all the fuel out, through
a filter to clean out any biological beasties that may have gotten
into the stored fuel, and into the tank truck. And once they are
done, they run it through the filter a second time while putting it
back.

It's not beyond the RCM'er to get a micron fuel filter, a gear pump,
some hoses and 55-gallon drums, and rig their own system. Slower, but
you aren't in a rush.

And Diesel isn't all that volatile, so you mostly just have to be
careful not to spill it.

Oh, and good luck getting Home Heating Oil delivered in California...
It can be done, though as Dyed Diesel, but you'll raise a lot of
eyebrows and pay a stiff premium for deliveries of small quantities
like that - especially in cities that have stiff regulations on how
much fuel you can have on hand, and a really stiff process on
permanent storage tanks. You need a properly permitted and insured
tank for that.

The only "route delivery" systems that would offer reasonable prices
are for Propane. With diesel it's best to get a Transfer Tank in your
truck or on a trailer, and go get your diesel fuel yourself.

Oh, and Propane doesn't have the deterioration problems either, so as
a regional thing that might be a better choice for a small to
mid-sized generator system. Not so good for Nebraska where it gets
down into the -30's and Propane won't vaporize on it's own without
external heat applied.

-- Bruce --

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:38:32 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 12/20/2011 12:39 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley
in
. 3.70:

There's a reason there are "tuned" exhausts, and large diameter pipes.

BTW... I wasn't being snide of facetious. How do you think large auto
repair facilities get exhaust fumes away from cars in service or being
tested?

They do it with LONG exhaust hoses designed to purpose.

The length isn't very important if it's: 1) large enough, or 2) tuned to
the rpm at which the engine is running.

I know this might not make sense unless you understand the geometry, but
running an exhaust pipe out to open air IS running it into a long
exhaust
pipe. The particular "pipe" happens to be very, very large in diameter,
but also very, very long. And it doesn't cause the engine to stop.

And a suction fan.

A very LARGE fan. I've worked in many shops that have these.

Well, I was thinking more of an inline duct/booster fan, or even the draft
of chimbley.

The length isn't that big an issue, but it needs to be sized right -
roughly 1-1/2X to 2X the exhaust port at the muffler now. If you have
a 3/4" to 1" port there, start thinking 1-1/2" to 2" pipe.

If it goes up toward the roof, or up and out at the top of the wall,
the rising heat from the exhaust will develop a draft naturally, and
it'll draw just like a furnace vent.

Be sure to put a weatherhead flap on the outside so the rain doesn't
come in, and on a wall installation you might want a bug screen over
the end so nothing tries to set up housekeeping in the tailpipe. That
could gum up the works at the worst possible moment.

-- Bruce --

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:17:16 -0800, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human
readable)" wrote Re Generators,
nat gas: Noise?:

The only "route delivery" systems that would offer reasonable prices
are for Propane. With diesel it's best to get a Transfer Tank in your
truck or on a trailer, and go get your diesel fuel yourself.

Oh, and Propane doesn't have the deterioration problems either, so as
a regional thing that might be a better choice for a small to
mid-sized generator system. Not so good for Nebraska where it gets
down into the -30's and Propane won't vaporize on it's own without
external heat applied.

Can a diesel engine, like a gasoline engine, be easily converted to
run on NG or propane?
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Can a diesel engine, like a gasoline engine, *be easily converted to
run on NG or propane?

sorry no....

change the engine, or buy a whole new unit

On 12/21/2011 4:02 AM, Pete C. wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.


however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

DC = Data Center

Duh, silly me, I should have known that since I've worked on enough of
the darn things. o_O

TDD

On 12/21/2011 11:17 AM, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 04:02:54 -0600, "Pete
wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.

Just don't let the Cops catch you with Red Dye Offroad Diesel /#2
Heating Oil in your car or truck's fuel tank when they pull you over
on the highway - you'll be in a big steaming heap of trouble. They
put the dye in it for a reason.

however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

DC = Data Center

The Telephone switchrooms with permanent generators and on-site fuel
tanks hire a company to come around once a year to add a huge dose of
Bio-Bor then drop in a pickup tube and pump all the fuel out, through
a filter to clean out any biological beasties that may have gotten
into the stored fuel, and into the tank truck. And once they are
done, they run it through the filter a second time while putting it
back.

It's not beyond the RCM'er to get a micron fuel filter, a gear pump,
some hoses and 55-gallon drums, and rig their own system. Slower, but
you aren't in a rush.

And Diesel isn't all that volatile, so you mostly just have to be
careful not to spill it.

Oh, and good luck getting Home Heating Oil delivered in California...
It can be done, though as Dyed Diesel, but you'll raise a lot of
eyebrows and pay a stiff premium for deliveries of small quantities
like that - especially in cities that have stiff regulations on how
much fuel you can have on hand, and a really stiff process on
permanent storage tanks. You need a properly permitted and insured
tank for that.

The only "route delivery" systems that would offer reasonable prices
are for Propane. With diesel it's best to get a Transfer Tank in your
truck or on a trailer, and go get your diesel fuel yourself.

Oh, and Propane doesn't have the deterioration problems either, so as
a regional thing that might be a better choice for a small to
mid-sized generator system. Not so good for Nebraska where it gets
down into the -30's and Propane won't vaporize on it's own without
external heat applied.

-- Bruce--

Since I live in The Southeast, I've never had much experience with very
cold weather. I was wondering if the propane tanks were buried in the
ground, would that keep them warm enough to vaporize the fuel?

TDD

"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)" wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 04:02:54 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.

Just don't let the Cops catch you with Red Dye Offroad Diesel /#2
Heating Oil in your car or truck's fuel tank when they pull you over
on the highway - you'll be in a big steaming heap of trouble. They
put the dye in it for a reason.

however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

DC = Data Center

The Telephone switchrooms with permanent generators and on-site fuel
tanks hire a company to come around once a year to add a huge dose of
Bio-Bor then drop in a pickup tube and pump all the fuel out, through
a filter to clean out any biological beasties that may have gotten
into the stored fuel, and into the tank truck. And once they are
done, they run it through the filter a second time while putting it
back.

It's not beyond the RCM'er to get a micron fuel filter, a gear pump,
some hoses and 55-gallon drums, and rig their own system. Slower, but
you aren't in a rush.

And Diesel isn't all that volatile, so you mostly just have to be
careful not to spill it.

Oh, and good luck getting Home Heating Oil delivered in California...
It can be done, though as Dyed Diesel, but you'll raise a lot of
eyebrows and pay a stiff premium for deliveries of small quantities
like that - especially in cities that have stiff regulations on how
much fuel you can have on hand, and a really stiff process on
permanent storage tanks. You need a properly permitted and insured
tank for that.

The only "route delivery" systems that would offer reasonable prices
are for Propane. With diesel it's best to get a Transfer Tank in your
truck or on a trailer, and go get your diesel fuel yourself.

Oh, and Propane doesn't have the deterioration problems either, so as
a regional thing that might be a better choice for a small to
mid-sized generator system. Not so good for Nebraska where it gets
down into the -30's and Propane won't vaporize on it's own without
external heat applied.

-- Bruce --

In the frozen northeast where oil heat is the norm, it's just a matter
of telling the delivery guy to top off the generator tank while he's
there. And of course if you setup the appropriate taps and whatnot,
you've got an additional 275-300 gal of backup fuel.

I knew a farmer who had the oil heat guy fill up his (off road) diesel farm
tractor while he was onsite. Made sense, to me.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...


The only "route delivery" systems that would offer reasonable prices
are for Propane. With diesel it's best to get a Transfer Tank in your
truck or on a trailer, and go get your diesel fuel yourself.

In the frozen northeast where oil heat is the norm, it's just a matter
of telling the delivery guy to top off the generator tank while he's
there. And of course if you setup the appropriate taps and whatnot,
you've got an additional 275-300 gal of backup fuel.

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:36:19 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/21/2011 11:17 AM, Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable) wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 04:02:54 -0600, "Pete
wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:50 PM, Pete C. wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:17 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Diesel is essentialy the same as #2 home heating oil. Different color, no
road taxes. Cheaper than diesel, also. 275 gallon tank doesn't attract any
attention, everyone thinks it's fuel oil. Suppliers deliver to your tank,
also. Since your generator doesn't go down the road, it doesn't need to pay
the road taxes.

Just don't let the Cops catch you with Red Dye Offroad Diesel /#2
Heating Oil in your car or truck's fuel tank when they pull you over
on the highway - you'll be in a big steaming heap of trouble. They
put the dye in it for a reason.

however, diesel fuel does not keep well. I wouldn't want to have that
much on hand if the generator was the only reason i had it.

Diesel fuel keeps very well as long as you take basic precautions such
as adding a biocide and water absorbers. Some of our DCs have 20,000 gal
of diesel in storage with no issues. There is of course some turnover of
the fuel due to weekly exercising of the generators, but it's nowhere
near 20,000 gal.

Our underground military defense complexes have gained a lot of
experience over the years of dealing with large amounts of long
term diesel storage. I am tempted to do a search to see if there
might be unclassified information published about how the below
ground facilities handle diesel storage. When you wrote "DC" is
that for Defense Complex or what? I'd have to search back through
your posts to see if you defined it. ^_^

TDD

DC = Data Center

The Telephone switchrooms with permanent generators and on-site fuel
tanks hire a company to come around once a year to add a huge dose of
Bio-Bor then drop in a pickup tube and pump all the fuel out, through
a filter to clean out any biological beasties that may have gotten
into the stored fuel, and into the tank truck. And once they are
done, they run it through the filter a second time while putting it
back.

It's not beyond the RCM'er to get a micron fuel filter, a gear pump,
some hoses and 55-gallon drums, and rig their own system. Slower, but
you aren't in a rush.

And Diesel isn't all that volatile, so you mostly just have to be
careful not to spill it.

Oh, and good luck getting Home Heating Oil delivered in California...
It can be done, though as Dyed Diesel, but you'll raise a lot of
eyebrows and pay a stiff premium for deliveries of small quantities
like that - especially in cities that have stiff regulations on how
much fuel you can have on hand, and a really stiff process on
permanent storage tanks. You need a properly permitted and insured
tank for that.

The only "route delivery" systems that would offer reasonable prices
are for Propane. With diesel it's best to get a Transfer Tank in your
truck or on a trailer, and go get your diesel fuel yourself.

Oh, and Propane doesn't have the deterioration problems either, so as
a regional thing that might be a better choice for a small to
mid-sized generator system. Not so good for Nebraska where it gets
down into the -30's and Propane won't vaporize on it's own without
external heat applied.

-- Bruce--

Since I live in The Southeast, I've never had much experience with very
cold weather. I was wondering if the propane tanks were buried in the
ground, would that keep them warm enough to vaporize the fuel?

How deep do you want to buy them? ;-)