I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?

--
Rich Greenberg Sarasota, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 941 378 2097
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines: Val, Red, Shasta, Zero & Casey (At the bridge) Owner:Chinook-L
Canines: Red & Cinnar (Siberians) Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

On 12/8/2011 1:44 PM, Rich Greenberg wrote:
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ac+hard+start

On 12/8/2011 2:44 PM, Rich Greenberg wrote:
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?


It's an extra capacitor and start relay. $200.00 is 2 to 4 times what
I would charge if I added it on during the same call. ^_^

TDD

In article ,
chaniarts wrote:
On 12/8/2011 1:44 PM, Rich Greenberg wrote:
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ac+hard+start

Thanks for this link, which led me to Google which led me to suppliers.

It seems that the hard start is a good idea, but they are charging a lot
for them. Only $40-50 if I install it myself.

--
Rich Greenberg Sarasota, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 941 378 2097
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines: Val, Red, Shasta, Zero & Casey (At the bridge) Owner:Chinook-L
Canines: Red & Cinnar (Siberians) Retired at the beach Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

I've heard of hard start kits. I use them when the outdoor unit compressor
won't start. If yours works, save your money. As a couple other techs have
said, the guy is a bit over priced, too. I'd gently pass, on this one. And
look for another tech.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
...
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?

--
Rich Greenberg Sarasota, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com + 1 941 378 2097
Eastern time. N6LRT I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since
CP-67
Canines: Val, Red, Shasta, Zero & Casey (At the bridge)
Owner:Chinook-L
Canines: Red & Cinnar (Siberians) Retired at the beach Asst
Owner:Sibernet-L

"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting
adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut
which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?


Let's see... The AC manufacturer has electrical engineers designing
their equipment. And this equipment has a "name plate" with a
recommended circuit to power that unit. I should think that would work
if the appropriate circuit and wire gauge is used?

And this person thinks the manufacturer of the AC equipment did not
design things right? And he knows more than that manufacturer? What
are his qualifications?

Might want to ask on alt.engineering.electrical and get an expert
opinion. Or better yet, call the AC manufacturer engineering
department and see what they have to say...

On 12/9/2011 12:52 AM, Bill wrote:
"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?


Let's see... The AC manufacturer has electrical engineers designing
their equipment. And this equipment has a "name plate" with a
recommended circuit to power that unit. I should think that would work
if the appropriate circuit and wire gauge is used?

And this person thinks the manufacturer of the AC equipment did not
design things right? And he knows more than that manufacturer? What are
his qualifications?

Might want to ask on alt.engineering.electrical and get an expert
opinion. Or better yet, call the AC manufacturer engineering department
and see what they have to say...


A little clue since one of the legal things I do for money is servicing
HVAC and refrigeration equipment. If you look at the wiring diagram for
most AC condensing units, it's usually inside the cover over the
contactor, you will see information on connections for an optional start
assist device or kit from the manufacturer. Some units are shipped from
the factory with a "hard start kit" or device already installed but most
are not. There is another option not always installed by the factory
called an "anti-short cycle timer" which keeps the compressor from
trying to start under load after shutting down until the system
pressures have equalized. These items along with high and low pressure
cutout switches and condenser fan cycle switches AKA head pressure
controls are usually part of the premium priced units. All the extra
bells and whistles are left off of the less expensive builder or
contractor grade systems. The extra parts are not that expensive but to
a manufacturer building a million systems, ten, twenty or fifty dollars
per system can add up to a great deal of money where the bean counters
are watching every penny of production cost in order to compete with the
next manufacturer. The start assist devices are usually unnecessary
unless the customer's AC unit is in an area where the power supplied by
the utility may fluctuate enough to cause problems for compressors that
are starting under load. An honest service tech recommending a "hard
start" or "kick-start" device is not at all unusual and depends on the
condition and age of the compressor and quality of the utility power.

TDD

On Dec 9, 4:35*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 12/9/2011 12:52 AM, Bill wrote:





"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?

Let's see... The AC manufacturer has electrical engineers designing
their equipment. And this equipment has a "name plate" with a
recommended circuit to power that unit. I should think that would work
if the appropriate circuit and wire gauge is used?

And this person thinks the manufacturer of the AC equipment did not
design things right? And he knows more than that manufacturer? What are
his qualifications?

Might want to ask on alt.engineering.electrical and get an expert
opinion. Or better yet, call the AC manufacturer engineering department
and see what they have to say...

A little clue since one of the legal things I do for money is servicing
HVAC and refrigeration equipment. If you look at the wiring diagram for
most AC condensing units, it's usually inside the cover over the
contactor, you will see information on connections for an optional start
assist device or kit from the manufacturer. Some units are shipped from
the factory with a "hard start kit" or device already installed but most
are not. There is another option not always installed by the factory
called an "anti-short cycle timer" which keeps the compressor from
trying to start under load after shutting down until the system
pressures have equalized. These items along with high and low pressure
cutout switches and condenser fan cycle switches AKA head pressure
controls are usually part of the premium priced units. All the extra
bells and whistles are left off of the less expensive builder or
contractor grade systems. The extra parts are not that expensive but to
a manufacturer building a million systems, ten, twenty or fifty dollars
per system can add up to a great deal of money where the bean counters
are watching every penny of production cost in order to compete with the
next manufacturer. The start assist devices are usually unnecessary
unless the customer's AC unit is in an area where the power supplied by
the utility may fluctuate enough to cause problems for compressors that
are starting under load. An honest service tech recommending a "hard
start" or "kick-start" device is not at all unusual and depends on the
condition and age of the compressor and quality of the utility power.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would not put a hard start cap on a unit that was working
fine. If it's tripping the breaker sometimes when trying to
start, then after making sure all else is in order I would put
one on. That's what I did with my old unit when it was 10 years old
and got another 16 years out of it.

On 12/9/2011 6:48 AM, wrote:
On Dec 9, 4:35 am, The Daring
wrote:
On 12/9/2011 12:52 AM, Bill wrote:





"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?

Let's see... The AC manufacturer has electrical engineers designing
their equipment. And this equipment has a "name plate" with a
recommended circuit to power that unit. I should think that would work
if the appropriate circuit and wire gauge is used?

And this person thinks the manufacturer of the AC equipment did not
design things right? And he knows more than that manufacturer? What are
his qualifications?

Might want to ask on alt.engineering.electrical and get an expert
opinion. Or better yet, call the AC manufacturer engineering department
and see what they have to say...

A little clue since one of the legal things I do for money is servicing
HVAC and refrigeration equipment. If you look at the wiring diagram for
most AC condensing units, it's usually inside the cover over the
contactor, you will see information on connections for an optional start
assist device or kit from the manufacturer. Some units are shipped from
the factory with a "hard start kit" or device already installed but most
are not. There is another option not always installed by the factory
called an "anti-short cycle timer" which keeps the compressor from
trying to start under load after shutting down until the system
pressures have equalized. These items along with high and low pressure
cutout switches and condenser fan cycle switches AKA head pressure
controls are usually part of the premium priced units. All the extra
bells and whistles are left off of the less expensive builder or
contractor grade systems. The extra parts are not that expensive but to
a manufacturer building a million systems, ten, twenty or fifty dollars
per system can add up to a great deal of money where the bean counters
are watching every penny of production cost in order to compete with the
next manufacturer. The start assist devices are usually unnecessary
unless the customer's AC unit is in an area where the power supplied by
the utility may fluctuate enough to cause problems for compressors that
are starting under load. An honest service tech recommending a "hard
start" or "kick-start" device is not at all unusual and depends on the
condition and age of the compressor and quality of the utility power.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would not put a hard start cap on a unit that was working
fine. If it's tripping the breaker sometimes when trying to
start, then after making sure all else is in order I would put
one on. That's what I did with my old unit when it was 10 years old
and got another 16 years out of it.

I have seen a "Kick Start" device break the connecting rod in a
reciprocating AC compressor before. One of the first items I will
always recommend a customer let me install is an anti-short cycle
timer. The timer prevents the compressor from restarting before
system pressures can equalize allowing the compressor to start under
the least load. The time delay is often one of the things that can
be programmed in most digital thermostats and I always check for it.
If you wonder why it's important it's because whenever the power blinks
or someone plays with a mechanical thermostat, the timer prevents the
compressor from being slammed on and off which really puts a lot of
stress on a compressor both electrically and mechanically.

TDD

..

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 04:48:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 9, 4:35Â*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 12/9/2011 12:52 AM, Bill wrote:





"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?

Let's see... The AC manufacturer has electrical engineers designing
their equipment. And this equipment has a "name plate" with a
recommended circuit to power that unit. I should think that would work
if the appropriate circuit and wire gauge is used?

And this person thinks the manufacturer of the AC equipment did not
design things right? And he knows more than that manufacturer? What are
his qualifications?

Might want to ask on alt.engineering.electrical and get an expert
opinion. Or better yet, call the AC manufacturer engineering department
and see what they have to say...

A little clue since one of the legal things I do for money is servicing
HVAC and refrigeration equipment. If you look at the wiring diagram for
most AC condensing units, it's usually inside the cover over the
contactor, you will see information on connections for an optional start
assist device or kit from the manufacturer. Some units are shipped from
the factory with a "hard start kit" or device already installed but most
are not. There is another option not always installed by the factory
called an "anti-short cycle timer" which keeps the compressor from
trying to start under load after shutting down until the system
pressures have equalized. These items along with high and low pressure
cutout switches and condenser fan cycle switches AKA head pressure
controls are usually part of the premium priced units. All the extra
bells and whistles are left off of the less expensive builder or
contractor grade systems. The extra parts are not that expensive but to
a manufacturer building a million systems, ten, twenty or fifty dollars
per system can add up to a great deal of money where the bean counters
are watching every penny of production cost in order to compete with the
next manufacturer. The start assist devices are usually unnecessary
unless the customer's AC unit is in an area where the power supplied by
the utility may fluctuate enough to cause problems for compressors that
are starting under load. An honest service tech recommending a "hard
start" or "kick-start" device is not at all unusual and depends on the
condition and age of the compressor and quality of the utility power.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would not put a hard start cap on a unit that was working
fine. If it's tripping the breaker sometimes when trying to
start, then after making sure all else is in order I would put
one on. That's what I did with my old unit when it was 10 years old
and got another 16 years out of it.


See: http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/AC%...%20Booklet.pdf
for all the information you need on hard start devices from the
company that pioneered hard start kits.

..

On 12/9/2011 3:51 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 04:48:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 9, 4:35 am, The Daring
wrote:
On 12/9/2011 12:52 AM, Bill wrote:





"Rich Greenberg" wrote in message
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. Have any of you and is it a good idea?

Let's see... The AC manufacturer has electrical engineers designing
their equipment. And this equipment has a "name plate" with a
recommended circuit to power that unit. I should think that would work
if the appropriate circuit and wire gauge is used?

And this person thinks the manufacturer of the AC equipment did not
design things right? And he knows more than that manufacturer? What are
his qualifications?

Might want to ask on alt.engineering.electrical and get an expert
opinion. Or better yet, call the AC manufacturer engineering department
and see what they have to say...

A little clue since one of the legal things I do for money is servicing
HVAC and refrigeration equipment. If you look at the wiring diagram for
most AC condensing units, it's usually inside the cover over the
contactor, you will see information on connections for an optional start
assist device or kit from the manufacturer. Some units are shipped from
the factory with a "hard start kit" or device already installed but most
are not. There is another option not always installed by the factory
called an "anti-short cycle timer" which keeps the compressor from
trying to start under load after shutting down until the system
pressures have equalized. These items along with high and low pressure
cutout switches and condenser fan cycle switches AKA head pressure
controls are usually part of the premium priced units. All the extra
bells and whistles are left off of the less expensive builder or
contractor grade systems. The extra parts are not that expensive but to
a manufacturer building a million systems, ten, twenty or fifty dollars
per system can add up to a great deal of money where the bean counters
are watching every penny of production cost in order to compete with the
next manufacturer. The start assist devices are usually unnecessary
unless the customer's AC unit is in an area where the power supplied by
the utility may fluctuate enough to cause problems for compressors that
are starting under load. An honest service tech recommending a "hard
start" or "kick-start" device is not at all unusual and depends on the
condition and age of the compressor and quality of the utility power.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would not put a hard start cap on a unit that was working
fine. If it's tripping the breaker sometimes when trying to
start, then after making sure all else is in order I would put
one on. That's what I did with my old unit when it was 10 years old
and got another 16 years out of it.


See: http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/AC%...%20Booklet.pdf
for all the information you need on hard start devices from the
company that pioneered hard start kits.

.

I buy a lot of Supco products. I use their three phase motor protectors
on 3 phase commercial AC units and there is one product that is very
handy for a lot of things and it's Supco 88 and it works. Not only
inside compressors but you can use a drop or two on any joint on a tool
like lineman's pliers to free up the action.

http://www.supco.com/Chemicals%20pg7.htm

TDD

wrote in message
If it needed a hard start kit when operating normally, don't
you think Rheem would have put one in?


I think the HVAC tech needed more income. Must be related to the HVAC
tech who told my elderly mom she needed a whole new HVAC system
installed every few years...

On 12/10/2011 7:51 AM, Bill wrote:
wrote in message
If it needed a hard start kit when operating normally, don't
you think Rheem would have put one in?


I think the HVAC tech needed more income. Must be related to the HVAC
tech who told my elderly mom she needed a whole new HVAC system
installed every few years...


I wound up at a deposition at a lawyers office when I went behind
another HVAC service company where the tech actually sabotaged the
AC unit of my friend's elderly mother. My friend won his case because
the other company decided to settle out of court. Most service companies
are honest and don't rip off their customers, unfortunately there are
a few that can cause problems and give a bad name to a whole industry.
Believe me, if you hang around any supply house for a while, you'll
hear from the guys who the crooks are. Upsell or trying to sell service
contracts is activity that's more common among the larger service
companies. It really depends on the corporate culture of the company
as to whether or not customers are treated as valued friends or as a
mark to be swindled. I'm very protective of my elderly customers and
tell them to call me if anyone tries to sell them on anything no matter
what. A lot of times a swindler will vanish if one of elderly friends
tells them to wait until they call me. ^_^

TDD

On Dec 10, 9:19*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 12/10/2011 7:51 AM, Bill wrote:

wrote in message
If it needed a hard start kit when operating normally, don't
you think Rheem would have put one in?

I think the HVAC tech needed more income. Must be related to the HVAC
tech who told my elderly mom she needed a whole new HVAC system
installed every few years...

I wound up at a deposition at a lawyers office when I went behind
another HVAC service company where the tech actually sabotaged the
AC unit of my friend's elderly mother. My friend won his case because
the other company decided to settle out of court. Most service companies
are honest and don't rip off their customers, unfortunately there are
a few that can cause problems and give a bad name to a whole industry.
Believe me, if you hang around any supply house for a while, you'll
hear from the guys who the crooks are. Upsell or trying to sell service
contracts is activity that's more common among the larger service
companies. It really depends on the corporate culture of the company
as to whether or not customers are treated as valued friends or as a
mark to be swindled. I'm very protective of my elderly customers and
tell them to call me if anyone tries to sell them on anything no matter
what. A lot of times a swindler will vanish if one of elderly friends
tells them to wait until they call me. ^_^

TDD

Someone had posted a link here couple months ago to
a Dateline video done in Pheonix. They had an AC that
was about 10 years old checked out by a reputable company
and found to be working OK. They then pulled the disconnect
out slightly so that the outside unit would not work and
called several companies for service. Out of about 4
I think 2 were crooks. They showed the tech telling her
the system was getting power, but was shot and she
needed a whole new one.
One guy not only pushed the disconnect back in, he
also didn't charge her for the call.

So, yeah, if a system is starting normally, not tripping
the breaker, I sure would not be putting a hard start
kit on it because some tech says so. And $200 to
install one is out of line, especially if that was in
addition to whatever he paid for the regular service
call. I would also find a new AC company.

On Dec 8, 2:44*pm, (Rich Greenberg) wrote:
I had my A.C./heat pump serviced today. *The tech is suggesting adding
something called a "hard start" to the compressor starting circut which
supposedly reduces wear on the motor. *And costs almost $200.

I have never heard of this. *Have any of you and is it a good idea?

--
Rich Greenberg *Sarasota, FL, USA richgr atsign panix.com *+ 1 941 378 2097begin_of_the_skype_highlighting************+ 1 941 378 2097
Eastern time. *N6LRT *I speak for myself & my dogs only. * *VM'er since CP-67
Canines: Val, Red, Shasta, Zero & Casey (At the bridge) * * * *Owner:Chinook-L
Canines: Red & Cinnar (Siberians) *Retired at the beach *Asst Owner:Sibernet-L

A hard start kit for the compressor is ONLY needed if the compressor
doesnt come online right away when a call for cooling occurs by the
thermostat . It is useful for tight old compressors or for low
voltage conditions and/or for a/c systems that dont equalize the
internal pressure quick enough before the next cooling cycle occurs.
$200 installed is a tad on the high side unless hes going to be
servicing the whole unit at the same time.

Similar thing, I saw years ago. They had the system checked, then someone
unwired one of the low voltage wires to the contactor. Much the same
results, one company just reattached the wire. Another company tech used
wire cutters to cut the coil wire on the contactor.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

Someone had posted a link here couple months ago to
a Dateline video done in Pheonix. They had an AC that
was about 10 years old checked out by a reputable company
and found to be working OK. They then pulled the disconnect
out slightly so that the outside unit would not work and
called several companies for service. Out of about 4
I think 2 were crooks. They showed the tech telling her
the system was getting power, but was shot and she
needed a whole new one.
One guy not only pushed the disconnect back in, he
also didn't charge her for the call.

So, yeah, if a system is starting normally, not tripping
the breaker, I sure would not be putting a hard start
kit on it because some tech says so. And $200 to
install one is out of line, especially if that was in
addition to whatever he paid for the regular service
call. I would also find a new AC company.

On 12/9/2011 12:05 PM, Rich Greenberg wrote:
Thanks all for your responses. Unit has been working fine so I am going
to (probably) pass on getting the hard start unit. My house lights do
not dim when the unit starts which I understand is one of the symptoms of
needing the hard start. But just to make sure, I will call the
manufacturer (Rheem).


If you have a digital thermostat, see if there is a start up delay that
can be programmed into it for keeping the compressor from short cycling.
I set them anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes. If the power blinks or the AC
stops after reaching its set-point and someone immediately sets the temp
down calling for cooling, the time delay prevents the compressor from
trying to start before systems pressures equalize allowing the
compressor to start under the least load. If you have a mechanical
thermostat, a timer can be added out at the condensing unit inside the
electrical junction box. In rural areas where power go out frequently
during storms, I'll add anti short cycle timers and surge arresters to
the inside and outside units to protect the capacitors and circuit boards.

TDD

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 9:10:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

You could have too small a wire supplying power to your AC or there could be a bad connection. The only way to check it is to measure the current and voltage being supplied to your AC unit when it starts and while running. If you have an electronic thermostat, check the instructions or Google information on it and see if you can program it for a time delay known as "Anti Short Cycle". This will keep the compressor from starting until the pressure equalizes in the system and the compressor will draw the least amount of current when it starts. If you have an old mechanical thermostat, a timer can be installed in the control housing outside in the condensing unit for your AC system. If you're not handy with electrical devices, call a trustworthy HVAC guy to check out your AC unit. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Cool Monster

On 6/8/2016 10:09 PM, wrote:
Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?


Can't hurt. How much is the AC company charging?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

wrote in message
...

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house
all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this
problem?


****Your question is will the hard start kit help any, Well I will say with
experience that I had it will not hurt any. However must likely your service
is undersize, you could have line to long between your property and
transformer that is someplace on the poll. Usually what you are describing
the supply line is not large enough to give amount of current at startup,
remember startup could be four (4) times running condition, so start up kit
could help but eliminate €œNO€�

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.


That was my thoughts also. That the hard start kit might make it worse
as it should cause the motor to draw more current on startup. Unlike
some devices that ramp up the motors slowly.

Could be loose connections of the house wiring or just too small of wire
feeding the house.

I don't know about the Rheem unit, but I was looking at some of the
Trane units and they have what seems to be a hard start kit already in
them.

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 9:41:53 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.

I've seen hard start kits break the connecting rod in a compressor. The best first move is to install a anti-short cycle timer to let the system pressures equalise so the compressor starts under minimum load. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Hard Monster

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 11:04:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.


That was my thoughts also. That the hard start kit might make it worse
as it should cause the motor to draw more current on startup. Unlike
some devices that ramp up the motors slowly.

Could be loose connections of the house wiring or just too small of wire
feeding the house.

I don't know about the Rheem unit, but I was looking at some of the
Trane units and they have what seems to be a hard start kit already in
them.

Curious minds and all...

Would it matter at all when the problem started? OP just moved in or
has been there years with no problems...

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:41:20 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 9:41:53 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.

I've seen hard start kits break the connecting rod in a compressor. The best first move is to install a anti-short cycle timer to let the system pressures equalise so the compressor starts under minimum load. ^_^

It is worth being sure there is not this kind of protection in the
unit or in the thermostat already. They seem pretty ubiquitous these
days.

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 12:56:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:41:20 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 9:41:53 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.

I've seen hard start kits break the connecting rod in a compressor. The best first move is to install a anti-short cycle timer to let the system pressures equalise so the compressor starts under minimum load. ^_^

It is worth being sure there is not this kind of protection in the
unit or in the thermostat already. They seem pretty ubiquitous these
days.

Or that maybe the cap that is there is going bad? Has that been checked?

On 6/8/2016 7:30 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 9:10:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

You could have too small a wire supplying power to your AC or there could be a bad connection. The only way to check it is to measure the current and voltage being supplied to your AC unit when it starts and while running. If you have an electronic thermostat, check the instructions or Google information on it and see if you can program it for a time delay known as "Anti Short Cycle". This will keep the compressor from starting until the pressure equalizes in the system and the compressor will draw the least amount of current when it starts. If you have an old mechanical thermostat, a timer can be installed in the control housing outside in the condensing unit for your AC system. If you're not handy with electrical devices, call a trustworthy HVAC guy to check out your AC unit. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Cool Monster


Does Uncle Monster use AC or DC on his anal vibrator?

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 11:56:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:41:20 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 9:41:53 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder on
the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and will
not kick over reliably on it's own.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just indicate
that your service conductors are too long or too small.

I've seen hard start kits break the connecting rod in a compressor. The best first move is to install a anti-short cycle timer to let the system pressures equalise so the compressor starts under minimum load. ^_^

It is worth being sure there is not this kind of protection in the
unit or in the thermostat already. They seem pretty ubiquitous these
days.

Most electronic thermostats have an anti-short cycle timer as a programmable option. You have to look for it because it doesn't come in the default program from the factory. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Default Monster

Thu, 09 Jun 2016 14:41:39 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in
my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start
kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder
on the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and
will not kick over reliably on it's own.

A slight flickering is normal on central hvac startup, depending on
the size of the unit and the panel amperage rating. If the unit is
equipped with a hard start pack, it may not cause any
flickering/dimming effect when powered up.

If it doesn't have this hard start pack though, it could cause the
flicker/dimming without anything actually being 'wrong' with the OPs
electrical system.

On a dead stop, the motor is pulling more amps than it would during a
run phase; a considerable amount more, actually. The additional (but
temporary) request for more amps is causing the temporary flickering
or dimming effect. A hard start kit if properly installed and of
sufficient size for the compressor it's going to be used with, should
reduce if not outright eliminate the dimming effect because it's
taking some of the load stress off the power source. Atleast, that's
been my experience and that of others I know who do hvac
professionally for a living. --- I'm not hvac, I'm electrical/IT.

I'm confused about why you wrote that installing a hard start could
make it worse? I would think the opposite would occur. It's reducing
the load being placed on the panel by the compressor when it's used.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/gpb5dhk

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/119...ard-start-kits

It's the same concept as placing a cap into your cars electrical
system so that the amplifier you just had to have won't seriously dim
your headlights and/or stallout the car when a bass note of
sufficient strength hits at a decent volume.

If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just
indicate that your service conductors are too long or too small.

It may also indicate nothing. As, like I said before, the initial
power required for starting an electric motor from a dead stop is
several amps more than it's going to pull once it's up and going.
Considering that the compressor motor is actually pushing a fluid/gas
around with resistance to the process, it's going to pull a
considerable amount of amps to get rolling.

https://www.amazon.ca/SUPCO-SPP6-Sta.../dp/B0002YTLFE

The comment:

4 of 4 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Easy install & Can hear the different with the A/C
performance May 15 2014
By K K - Published on Amazon.com
Verified Purchase
My street has only 2 electrical transformers and 15 new houses have
been put in the past 2-3 yrs so the power coming into the house does
vary a bit depending on load on the central lines.

When the A/C used to kick on, the lights in the house dimmed and the
A/C unit took 3-6 secs to be running at full speed. Since installing
this, the lights don't dim when it kicks on and the A/C unit is
running at speed in 2-3 secs. The sound of the A/C unit is now
constant with no humming/buzzing anymore. Unit is just over one yr
old on my one yr townhouse.

The reason I shared that comment about a hard start kit is because
that has also been my experience when I've installed them on a few
machines, to reduce 'flicker' effect. I've never seen one make the
situation worse as they don't cause MORE of a power drain on startup,
they eliminate some of it.

It's also entirely possible I've missed something here and I respect
your electrical expertise, so I'm asking why in your professional
opinion you think that installing a hard start kit could make the
flickering/dimming situation worse and not improve it?


--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 1:54:39 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

Thu, 09 Jun 2016 14:41:39 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in
my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start
kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder
on the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and
will not kick over reliably on it's own.

A slight flickering is normal on central hvac startup, depending on
the size of the unit and the panel amperage rating. If the unit is
equipped with a hard start pack, it may not cause any
flickering/dimming effect when powered up.

If it doesn't have this hard start pack though, it could cause the
flicker/dimming without anything actually being 'wrong' with the OPs
electrical system.

On a dead stop, the motor is pulling more amps than it would during a
run phase; a considerable amount more, actually. The additional (but
temporary) request for more amps is causing the temporary flickering
or dimming effect. A hard start kit if properly installed and of
sufficient size for the compressor it's going to be used with, should
reduce if not outright eliminate the dimming effect because it's
taking some of the load stress off the power source. Atleast, that's
been my experience and that of others I know who do hvac
professionally for a living. --- I'm not hvac, I'm electrical/IT.

I'm confused about why you wrote that installing a hard start could
make it worse? I would think the opposite would occur. It's reducing
the load being placed on the panel by the compressor when it's used.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/gpb5dhk

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/119...ard-start-kits

It's the same concept as placing a cap into your cars electrical
system so that the amplifier you just had to have won't seriously dim
your headlights and/or stallout the car when a bass note of
sufficient strength hits at a decent volume.


Agree with your other points, but not this one. When you put a cap
in a DC circuit on the power input to an amplifier, it does act as
a reservoir. It's fully charged during light or normal loads, when
the amp has a sudden increase in power needed, that cap can supply
some of it and being close to the destination, it can do so without
the impedance effects of many feet of wire.

However, I don't think a hard start kit works that way. If it did,
it could only be effective for 1/120 of a second, because that's
all the initial charge that's there prior to starting will last.
After that the AC voltage has reversed, the cap is drained, there
is no reserervoir and it's being charged in the opposite direction.
Current is needed through the AC supply to go into the cap and to
supply the motor which is trying to start. So, unless the motor
gets over it's starting difficulty in 1/120 of a second, I don't
see how the cap can be helping by being a reservoir like it is in
a DC circuit. I think the hard start kit probably works by
creating more phase shift to the start winding, which will go on
as long as the cap is in the circuit.




If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just
indicate that your service conductors are too long or too small.

It may also indicate nothing. As, like I said before, the initial
power required for starting an electric motor from a dead stop is
several amps more than it's going to pull once it's up and going.
Considering that the compressor motor is actually pushing a fluid/gas
around with resistance to the process, it's going to pull a
considerable amount of amps to get rolling.

https://www.amazon.ca/SUPCO-SPP6-Sta.../dp/B0002YTLFE

The comment:

4 of 4 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Easy install & Can hear the different with the A/C
performance May 15 2014
By K K - Published on Amazon.com
Verified Purchase
My street has only 2 electrical transformers and 15 new houses have
been put in the past 2-3 yrs so the power coming into the house does
vary a bit depending on load on the central lines.

When the A/C used to kick on, the lights in the house dimmed and the
A/C unit took 3-6 secs to be running at full speed. Since installing
this, the lights don't dim when it kicks on and the A/C unit is
running at speed in 2-3 secs. The sound of the A/C unit is now
constant with no humming/buzzing anymore. Unit is just over one yr
old on my one yr townhouse.

The reason I shared that comment about a hard start kit is because
that has also been my experience when I've installed them on a few
machines, to reduce 'flicker' effect. I've never seen one make the
situation worse as they don't cause MORE of a power drain on startup,
they eliminate some of it.


Agree. Best evidence of this is that they are often installed when
the motor has started blowing fuses. That's what happened with my
old AC. Once the kit was put in, no more blown fuses for 15 more
years until it was replaced, while still working. If it increased
the demand instead of moderating it, you'd have blown fuses, tripped
breakers, and they wouldn't work.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 1:54:39 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:

Thu, 09 Jun 2016 14:41:39 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:09:57 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hello, I have a Rheem heat pump, model Rpnl-043jaz. The lights in
my house all flicker every time it goes on....Will the hard start
kit resolve this problem?

A hard start might actually make that worse. It does just what it
implies. It adds an extra capacitor to the motor to kick it harder
on the start. This is used when the compressor is getting old and
will not kick over reliably on it's own.

A slight flickering is normal on central hvac startup, depending on
the size of the unit and the panel amperage rating. If the unit is
equipped with a hard start pack, it may not cause any
flickering/dimming effect when powered up.

If it doesn't have this hard start pack though, it could cause the
flicker/dimming without anything actually being 'wrong' with the OPs
electrical system.

On a dead stop, the motor is pulling more amps than it would during a
run phase; a considerable amount more, actually. The additional (but
temporary) request for more amps is causing the temporary flickering
or dimming effect. A hard start kit if properly installed and of
sufficient size for the compressor it's going to be used with, should
reduce if not outright eliminate the dimming effect because it's
taking some of the load stress off the power source. Atleast, that's
been my experience and that of others I know who do hvac
professionally for a living. --- I'm not hvac, I'm electrical/IT.

I'm confused about why you wrote that installing a hard start could
make it worse? I would think the opposite would occur. It's reducing
the load being placed on the panel by the compressor when it's used.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/gpb5dhk

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/119...ard-start-kits

It's the same concept as placing a cap into your cars electrical
system so that the amplifier you just had to have won't seriously dim
your headlights and/or stallout the car when a bass note of
sufficient strength hits at a decent volume.


Agree with your other points, but not this one. When you put a cap
in a DC circuit on the power input to an amplifier, it does act as
a reservoir. It's fully charged during light or normal loads, when
the amp has a sudden increase in power needed, that cap can supply
some of it and being close to the destination, it can do so without
the impedance effects of many feet of wire.

However, I don't think a hard start kit works that way. If it did,
it could only be effective for 1/120 of a second, because that's
all the initial charge that's there prior to starting will last.
After that the AC voltage has reversed, the cap is drained, there
is no reserervoir and it's being charged in the opposite direction.
Current is needed through the AC supply to go into the cap and to
supply the motor which is trying to start. So, unless the motor
gets over it's starting difficulty in 1/120 of a second, I don't
see how the cap can be helping by being a reservoir like it is in
a DC circuit. I think the hard start kit probably works by
creating more phase shift to the start winding, which will go on
as long as the cap is in the circuit.

*** I am sorry but you need little more knowledge about Capacitors
And how are used. In his application capacitor is always drained and it
is use for two reasons to limit current and keep compressor running in
"right direction" in AC systems. In DC system are used as surge or spiking
Limiters and yes it could be use as instantaneous supply like in Cameras
are even car start up but they always must be connected to source
before it can be used that is why you need to wait to charge before your
flash on camera will work and if capacitor start to leak you lose both.
This Capacitors are call (ELECTROLYTIC) they are not consider Caps.


If your connections are solid from the utility, it may just
indicate that your service conductors are too long or too small.

It may also indicate nothing. As, like I said before, the initial
power required for starting an electric motor from a dead stop is
several amps more than it's going to pull once it's up and going.
Considering that the compressor motor is actually pushing a fluid/gas
around with resistance to the process, it's going to pull a
considerable amount of amps to get rolling.

https://www.amazon.ca/SUPCO-SPP6-Sta.../dp/B0002YTLFE

The comment:

4 of 4 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Easy install & Can hear the different with the A/C
performance May 15 2014
By K K - Published on Amazon.com
Verified Purchase
My street has only 2 electrical transformers and 15 new houses have
been put in the past 2-3 yrs so the power coming into the house does
vary a bit depending on load on the central lines.

When the A/C used to kick on, the lights in the house dimmed and the
A/C unit took 3-6 secs to be running at full speed. Since installing
this, the lights don't dim when it kicks on and the A/C unit is
running at speed in 2-3 secs. The sound of the A/C unit is now
constant with no humming/buzzing anymore. Unit is just over one yr
old on my one yr townhouse.

The reason I shared that comment about a hard start kit is because
that has also been my experience when I've installed them on a few
machines, to reduce 'flicker' effect. I've never seen one make the
situation worse as they don't cause MORE of a power drain on startup,
they eliminate some of it.


Agree. Best evidence of this is that they are often installed when
the motor has started blowing fuses. That's what happened with my
old AC. Once the kit was put in, no more blown fuses for 15 more
years until it was replaced, while still working. If it increased
the demand instead of moderating it, you'd have blown fuses, tripped
breakers, and they wouldn't work.

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 9:26:38 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote:


Agree with your other points, but not this one. When you put a cap
in a DC circuit on the power input to an amplifier, it does act as
a reservoir. It's fully charged during light or normal loads, when
the amp has a sudden increase in power needed, that cap can supply
some of it and being close to the destination, it can do so without
the impedance effects of many feet of wire.

However, I don't think a hard start kit works that way. If it did,
it could only be effective for 1/120 of a second, because that's
all the initial charge that's there prior to starting will last.
After that the AC voltage has reversed, the cap is drained, there
is no reserervoir and it's being charged in the opposite direction.
Current is needed through the AC supply to go into the cap and to
supply the motor which is trying to start. So, unless the motor
gets over it's starting difficulty in 1/120 of a second, I don't
see how the cap can be helping by being a reservoir like it is in
a DC circuit. I think the hard start kit probably works by
creating more phase shift to the start winding, which will go on
as long as the cap is in the circuit.

*** I am sorry but you need little more knowledge about Capacitors
And how are used. In his application capacitor is always drained


It's true that it's mostly drained, which is exactly what I posted,
but like any capacitor, when voltage is applied to it,
it does start to charge for the first half of the first AC cycle it sees. That is what I described and stated that isn't how it works because the
small amount of energy stored at that point is obviously insignificant.




and it
is use for two reasons to limit current and keep compressor running in
"right direction" in AC systems.

Does it do that by poking the rotor with a stick? It does it by providing
a phase shift, which is what I stated.


In DC system are used as surge or spiking
Limiters and yes it could be use as instantaneous supply like in Cameras
are even car start up but they always must be connected to source
before it can be used that is why you need to wait to charge before your
flash on camera will work and if capacitor start to leak you lose both.
This Capacitors are call (ELECTROLYTIC) they are not consider Caps.



It's true that caps on DC circuit boards will help limit surges or spiking,
but that is not their main function. MOVs are used primarily for that
purpose an you will find them there together with a cap where power comes
on to a board. The main function of the cap is to provide a close by
current reservoir to accomodate the fast changing power requirements
of that circuit board. If you have a circuit that is switching on
and off, the current needed changes in nano seconds. IF that current
has to come through a length of wire that goes to the power supply,
that wire has impedance and it will limit how fast the current can
ramp up. The local cap doesn't have that limitation and can supply
the increased current immediately. Without the cap, the voltage
would spike downward and that spike would be seen not only by the
components on this board, but other nearby boards in the system.
So, in that sense it limits surges, but it does it by serving as
a near instantaneous supply of current.

Tony944 explained :

This Capacitors are call (ELECTROLYTIC) they are not consider Caps.

Electrolytic capacitors are still capacitors, electrolytic only refers
to the type of construction.

trader_4
Sun, 28
Aug 2016 13:16:53 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Agree with your other points, but not this one. When you put a
cap in a DC circuit on the power input to an amplifier, it does
act as a reservoir. It's fully charged during light or normal
loads, when the amp has a sudden increase in power needed, that
cap can supply some of it and being close to the destination, it
can do so without the impedance effects of many feet of wire.

It may not have been the best example. was just the easiest to
explain...

However, I don't think a hard start kit works that way. If it
did, it could only be effective for 1/120 of a second, because
that's all the initial charge that's there prior to starting will
last.

The hard start cap is only good for momentary contact. It's to be
disconnected as soon as the motor has achieved 'run' rpms. Otherwise,
you'd toast the cap. IE; it sends a surge of current to the start
windings to get the motor up and going, and within a few seconds, a
relay is supposed (in some) to kick it off the start cap/windings and
onto the run cap/run windings.

As I said though, hvac isn't my specialty and I fully admit I could
be wrong in how the cap is being used in this way.

http://www.capacitorformotor.com/start_capacitor.html

This website seems to agree with me though...

What is a Start Capacitor?

Designed for momentary use, the start capacitor is what lets a motor
start up instantly instead of taking a long time to come up to speed
before it can be used. It stays energized long enough to rapidly
bring the motor to 3/4 of its full speed and is then taken out of the
circuit. It will briefly increase motor starting torque and allow a
motor to be cycled on and off rapidly, but is not meant to be used
for more than a few seconds.

What exactly does it do?

Single phase motors will commonly have both a start and run
capacitor. The difference between the two is that the start capacitor
has a much higher ability to store charge, also known as its
capacitance rating, for its size than that of the run capacitor.
Essentially, the start cap gives the motor a bolt of energy in order
to get it up and running, while the run capacitor keeps the motor
going after the start capacitor shuts down.



--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

In article ,
says...


The hard start cap is only good for momentary contact. It's to be
disconnected as soon as the motor has achieved 'run' rpms. Otherwise,
you'd toast the cap. IE; it sends a surge of current to the start
windings to get the motor up and going, and within a few seconds, a
relay is supposed (in some) to kick it off the start cap/windings and
onto the run cap/run windings.

As I said though, hvac isn't my specialty and I fully admit I could
be wrong in how the cap is being used in this way.


Everyone seems to be dancing around the hard start capacitor.

It allows the motor to draw lots more current for a very short time to
get the motor up to speed faster. As the motor spins up it draws less
and less current. When it is at its rated speed , it will draw less
current .
As most fuses and breakers do not trip at the instant they reach their
marked current, but take some time to heat up and trip depending on how
much over the marked value the current is. By using the hard start kit
the current will be over the marked value by a good ammount, but it will
be short enough not to trip the breaker. Where without the kit it will
take the motor longer to get up to speed and the breaker will trip
during the longer slightly over loaded condition.

Think of it as how long you can hold your hand to a hot surface. You
can touch a very hot object for a very short time and not get burnt.
YOu can touch a cooler object longer before a burn.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 5:29:05 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Sun, 28
Aug 2016 13:16:53 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Agree with your other points, but not this one. When you put a
cap in a DC circuit on the power input to an amplifier, it does
act as a reservoir. It's fully charged during light or normal
loads, when the amp has a sudden increase in power needed, that
cap can supply some of it and being close to the destination, it
can do so without the impedance effects of many feet of wire.

It may not have been the best example. was just the easiest to
explain...

However, I don't think a hard start kit works that way. If it
did, it could only be effective for 1/120 of a second, because
that's all the initial charge that's there prior to starting will
last.

The hard start cap is only good for momentary contact. It's to be
disconnected as soon as the motor has achieved 'run' rpms. Otherwise,
you'd toast the cap.

Yes, I know that. The point is the start cap is not holding a charge
to send to the motor. As I showed you, all the cap would have in
the way of charge is whatever it accumulates in under 1/120 of a
second and that's insignificant.

IE; it sends a surge of current to the start
windings to get the motor up and going,

There is no charge to make a surge. It works by creating a phase
shift, which is necessary to get the motor rotating. Where is this
alleged surge coming from? The start cap has no power to it prior
to the motor attempting to start, so it has no charge store.
It can't get but a tiny, insignificant charge from the AC, because
in under 1/120 of a second, the AC voltage reverseds and what's
been charged in one direction is now being discharged in the other.
And whatever is going on there, the motor has barely moved, if at
all at that point.


and within a few seconds, a
relay is supposed (in some) to kick it off the start cap/windings and
onto the run cap/run windings.

As I said though, hvac isn't my specialty and I fully admit I could
be wrong in how the cap is being used in this way.


You are.


http://www.capacitorformotor.com/start_capacitor.html

This website seems to agree with me though...

What is a Start Capacitor?

Designed for momentary use, the start capacitor is what lets a motor
start up instantly instead of taking a long time to come up to speed
before it can be used. It stays energized long enough to rapidly
bring the motor to 3/4 of its full speed and is then taken out of the
circuit. It will briefly increase motor starting torque and allow a
motor to be cycled on and off rapidly, but is not meant to be used
for more than a few seconds.

What exactly does it do?

Single phase motors will commonly have both a start and run
capacitor. The difference between the two is that the start capacitor
has a much higher ability to store charge, also known as its
capacitance rating, for its size than that of the run capacitor.
Essentially, the start cap gives the motor a bolt of energy in order
to get it up and running, while the run capacitor keeps the motor
going after the start capacitor shuts down.



Sometimes even folks that should know better get it wrong. They're a
supplier, but they have it wrong. There is no "surge", it's a
phase shift. They only understand the static concept of a cap,
ie how it stores charge. They assume it's releasing that energy
somehow to make the motor go. They don't understand that a capacitor
in an AC circuit causes the current to lead the voltage by 90 degrees.
It's that effect that is used to create a second magnetic field that
is phase shifted in the motor.

The above is also consistent with the fact that many motors have
a run capacitor. If caps work in motors by doing a "surge",
then what is one doing in some motors all the time? The answer
is those motors need that phase shift to run.

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 5:57:41 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...


The hard start cap is only good for momentary contact. It's to be
disconnected as soon as the motor has achieved 'run' rpms. Otherwise,
you'd toast the cap. IE; it sends a surge of current to the start
windings to get the motor up and going, and within a few seconds, a
relay is supposed (in some) to kick it off the start cap/windings and
onto the run cap/run windings.

As I said though, hvac isn't my specialty and I fully admit I could
be wrong in how the cap is being used in this way.


Everyone seems to be dancing around the hard start capacitor.

It allows the motor to draw lots more current for a very short time to
get the motor up to speed faster.

That isn't true. As I said before, a classic symptom of an AC system
that needs a HS cap is that it starts to occasionally blow fuses,
because it's drawing too much current when trying to start. If the
HS cap increased the current, it would make it worse, not better.
The cap works by increasing the phase shift in the motor. It's
not magically somehow providing more current to the motor.



As the motor spins up it draws less
and less current. When it is at its rated speed , it will draw less
current .
As most fuses and breakers do not trip at the instant they reach their
marked current, but take some time to heat up and trip depending on how
much over the marked value the current is. By using the hard start kit
the current will be over the marked value by a good ammount, but it will
be short enough not to trip the breaker. Where without the kit it will
take the motor longer to get up to speed and the breaker will trip
during the longer slightly over loaded condition.

Think of it as how long you can hold your hand to a hot surface. You
can touch a very hot object for a very short time and not get burnt.
YOu can touch a cooler object longer before a burn.


Essentially what you are arguing is that the HS kit makes it draw more
current for awhile, then less. But that is still incorrect. By what
mechanism do you claim that the HS kit somehow provides more current?
I can explain what it's doing, it's not supplying more current, it's
shifting the PHASE of the current to create the proper rotating field
to get the motor going. That results in it using less current, less
power because the motor is getting started via a better method, as
opposed to brute forcing it.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
k.net...

In article ,
says...


The hard start cap is only good for momentary contact. It's to be
disconnected as soon as the motor has achieved 'run' rpms. Otherwise,
you'd toast the cap. IE; it sends a surge of current to the start
windings to get the motor up and going, and within a few seconds, a
relay is supposed (in some) to kick it off the start cap/windings and
onto the run cap/run windings.

As I said though, hvac isn't my specialty and I fully admit I could
be wrong in how the cap is being used in this way.


Everyone seems to be dancing around the hard start capacitor.

It allows the motor to draw lots more current for a very short time to
get the motor up to speed faster. As the motor spins up it draws less
and less current. When it is at its rated speed , it will draw less
current .
As most fuses and breakers do not trip at the instant they reach their
marked current, but take some time to heat up and trip depending on how
much over the marked value the current is. By using the hard start kit
the current will be over the marked value by a good ammount, but it will
be short enough not to trip the breaker. Where without the kit it will
take the motor longer to get up to speed and the breaker will trip
during the longer slightly over loaded condition.

Think of it as how long you can hold your hand to a hot surface. You
can touch a very hot object for a very short time and not get burnt.
YOu can touch a cooler object longer before a burn.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Again yes MOV are used in power supplies, but MOV came out about 30 years
ago
what was used before that time? There some Capacitors that are made for very
high-power in switching circuits like power station that can very easily
kill person
but I do not think that we are talking about those.
Electrolytic common definition in DC systems not necessarily in the AC
systems
and no commonly they do not get charge in AC systems as I said, they are use
limit current but 90 deg. out of phase to the AC line to start or run
motors, what
would be classification of running Capacitor which is on at all the time
when power
source is applied. You can also change power consumption by change the value
of capacitor. (Don't do it unless you know what you are doing)
Go back to DC: the DC voltage most not be able to pass through any capacitor
unless it is bad and is leaking through, but the CA will' because that is
what is should do.
Some of you guys can say whatever you want I am not here to squabble over
some stupidity.
So gents have nice day...

"Tony944" wrote in message
...



"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
k.net...

In article ,
says...


The hard start cap is only good for momentary contact. It's to be
disconnected as soon as the motor has achieved 'run' rpms. Otherwise,
you'd toast the cap. IE; it sends a surge of current to the start
windings to get the motor up and going, and within a few seconds, a
relay is supposed (in some) to kick it off the start cap/windings and
onto the run cap/run windings.

As I said though, hvac isn't my specialty and I fully admit I could
be wrong in how the cap is being used in this way.


Everyone seems to be dancing around the hard start capacitor.

It allows the motor to draw lots more current for a very short time to
get the motor up to speed faster. As the motor spins up it draws less
and less current. When it is at its rated speed , it will draw less
current .
As most fuses and breakers do not trip at the instant they reach their
marked current, but take some time to heat up and trip depending on how
much over the marked value the current is. By using the hard start kit
the current will be over the marked value by a good ammount, but it will
be short enough not to trip the breaker. Where without the kit it will
take the motor longer to get up to speed and the breaker will trip
during the longer slightly over loaded condition.

Think of it as how long you can hold your hand to a hot surface. You
can touch a very hot object for a very short time and not get burnt.
YOu can touch a cooler object longer before a burn.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Again yes MOV are used in power supplies, but MOV came out about 30 years
ago
what was used before that time? There some Capacitors that are made for very
high-power in switching circuits like power station that can very easily
kill person
but I do not think that we are talking about those.
Electrolytic common definition in DC systems not necessarily in the AC
systems
and no commonly they do not get charge in AC systems as I said, they are use
to limit current but 90 deg. out of phase to the AC line to start or run
motors. What would be classification of running Capacitor which is on at all
the time
when power source is applied. You can also change power consumption by
change the
value of capacitor. (Don't do it unless you know what you are doing)
Go back to DC: the DC voltage most not be able to pass through any capacitor
unless it is bad and is leaking through, but the "AC" will' because that is
what is suppose to do.
Some of you guys can say whatever you want I am not here to squabble over
some stupidity.
So gents have nice day...