On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 22:42:19 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Wear a sandwich board, and protest in front of their office for a week?

Heh heh. I love that idea!

There may be a bigger (hidden) point in the joke which is that it's just
not worth the time and energy.

You may be right. I've never filed a complaint before but I'd really hate
to see someone get reamed by Comfort Energy who doesn't at least have the
friends like you guys helping out.

What if a little old lady or someone too busy to double check them gets
told their $4000 AC is out when all it is is a $25 bad circuit breaker?

On Sep 15, 6:22*pm, arkland wrote:
On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 08:43:39 +0000, arkland wrote:
Now I'm really mad at the company - but first - I have to see if the new
circuit breaker (30 amp x 4, in two gangs) will fit on the bus bar which
is thicker than the opening.

I'm steaming mad. Either the company I sent out was incompetent, or,
worse yet, they're lying cheats!

They tried so hard to sell me on a new A/C unit for $4000, I should have
known. They 'said' it was the 'compressor'. They 'said' the voltage "was
within 5%". Guess what?

The problem had NOTHING to do with the air conditioning! The problem was
merely that the 30-amp quad ganged circuit breaker was broken. Of the
four 30-amp 120v circuits, one was 0 volts.

When I replaced the breaker (it wasn't easy to find a 30-amp quad
breaker), everything worked just fine.

What steams me is I can't for the life of me figure out whether the air
conditioning company was lying or if they were simply incompetent!

But, I'm so mad, I want to write them a letter! What else do you suggest?

For what it's worth, that is more commonly called a ganged breaker and
you do not need all 4 to be ganged if two are for your hvac and two
are for your dryer. You can use the much more common two ganged
breakers from lowes or home depot. They are ganged so that a short on
either leg causes both legs to disconnect. You don't need a short in
one appliance taking the other off line.

In your case I'm guessing the electrician had a 4 gang breaker handy
and used it.

Glad to hear your compressor was not bad. If you mentioned that he
fan was not starting either earlier in your post many of us could have
told you that does not suggest the compressor. Both are powered from
the contactor. It's unlikely that both would have failed at the same
time.

While it was a learning experience had you known a reliable service
guy you could have got it fixed on a single call for less than you
have spent. It might be worth your while to talk to your neighbors
about who they have had good results with.

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 05:13:36 +0000 (UTC), arkland
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 16:29:58 -0700, Oren wrote:

I would at least ask for the service charge be returned. Check your
state contractor's board web site for previous complaints or perhaps
make a complaint with them.

I never heard of a state contractor's board. I'm in California, in Santa
Clara County. Lemme look that up...

It looks like I can file a complaint he
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/consumers/Fil...AComplaint.asp

I'm confused though as this "state contractors board" seems to be for
'new construction' only.


This from your link.

Complaint Jurisdiction

[...]

"The term "contractor" includes those individuals or firms that offer
services to improve real property, including, but not limited to, home
building, remodeling, room additions, swimming pools, painting,
roofing, landscaping, plumbing, electrical, heating and air
conditioning, and installation and repair of mobile homes."

_Check a Contractor License or Home Improvement Salesperson (HIS)
Registration_

"Look up a contractor license or Home Improvement Salesperson (HIS)
registration to verify information, including complaint disclosure.
Before hiring a contractor or signing a contract, CSLB recommends you
read the Hiring a Contractor page."

https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/OnlineServices/CheckLicenseII/CheckLicense.aspx

....
In Nevada, NSCB even has a "most wanted" list of crooked
"contractors."

http://www.nvcontractorsboard.com/most_wanted.php

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:23:54 -0700, Oren wrote:

In Nevada, NSCB even has a "most wanted" list of crooked "contractors."

Yesterday, I called the co-president of "Comfort Energy", Yuka Abbot, at
408-263-3100. http://www.comfortzone-air.com (formerly Comfort Zone
Mechanical Air Company).

She was good enough to listen to what I had to say, which was mostly that
neither my fan nor my compressor was working, but it had 24 volts as the
contactor was working fine and the capacitor appeared undamaged. I
explained the experience tracking down the wrong diagnosis cost me a
couple hundred dollars and ten days and that I didn't want a little old
lady to have the same problem in the future.

She said she'd have her husband, the VP, Harry Abbott, a former cop, call
me, but, instead, they directed E.J. Hansen, the manager of the
technicians to talk to me by phone. To his credit, he almost immediately
did so.

He was personable, understanding, and said he'd call me on Wednesday to
let me know the resolution.

I'm out two hundred dollars plus my compressor is (self) damaged as I was
all this time trying to figure out what was wrong with it since they
expressly told me it was the bad part. In doing so, I removed the lower
heating thermoswitch, which turned out to not have any bearing on the
problem (of course, since the entire AC system was working in the first
place ... it just didn't have power).

I had taken that part to Marcone (who had never seen one before), and to
APED (who likewise had never seen them) and to Appliance Parts on the
Alameda in San Jose, who also had never seen it. However, John at
Appliance parts kindly referred me to Northaire in northern San Jose who
knew right away what it was. (Remember, it was Greg at Northaire who
patiently explained to me there was no way a bad fan and bad compressor
would be anything other than the capacitor, contactor, or bad power).
When I explained the power readings I obtained both before and after the
Comfort Energy visit, Greg stopped right there, and said "it's clear as
day", you have only one leg of power.

A customer, Jim, a licensed electrician and A/C guy, offered to stop by
to help me, and we exchanged calls and set up an appointment because he
too said a lot of companies aren't truthful when dealing with air
conditioners (which requires licensed technicians).

At that point, I finally realized that this is a 'special' case because
we are FORCED to trust the LICENSED people to work on our A/C. Remember,
I've talked to a dozen companies by now, and they all clam up when they
realize that I'm not a licensed technician. They won't even tell me the
price of a compressor! They certainly won't sell it to me. In fact, some
expressed surprise that they'd sell me the contactor and/or capacitor!

Anyway, after all this, the problem embarrassingly, was simply that the
circuit breaker was bad. There was only 120v at the A/C unit fuses
instead of 240 volts. But they CLEARLY (and REPEATEDLY) told me the
compressor was bad. They couldn't explain why the fan wasn' working which
made no sense to me but I had to trust them as they're the experts, not
me. And they're the only ones LICENSED to work on this A/C unit, not me!

Proving that point, unfortunately, I broke the plastic surrounds around
that thermoswitch in the process. This bottom plug in simply warms the
compressor oil, but now my compressor is likely to fail sooner simply
because of the mis-diagnosis of a compressor failure by Comfort Energy.

The end result is that it cost me a compressor component, ten days, and
two hundred dollars.

Yet, that's cheap compared to the $4000 they were desperately trying to
sell me.

After talking to Yuka Abbott, and to E.J Hansen, I'm not sure which of
the three possibilities (well, actually two) are correct:
1. I'm wrong and the technician did a good job == almost impossible
2. The technician failed to test that 240 volts existed at the AC unit
==50%
3. The technician committed the crime of fraud == 50%

The company, seemingly sincerely, is telling me that it's #2, an honest
mistake. I'll wait 'till Wednesday to make my decision as to whether or
not I will file a suit, file a grievance with the state, or what.

The problem is that this is happening to others who don't doublecheck the
technician! How do we prevent this from happening again?

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:33:21 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:

For what it's worth, that is more commonly called a ganged breaker and
you do not need all 4 to be ganged if two are for your hvac and two are
for your dryer. You can use the much more common two ganged breakers
from lowes or home depot.

Actually, Home Depot and Lowes only had 20/30 "ganged breakers" and they
do work exactly as you noted. Since every other position on the main
panel is the other hot lead, the two inside breakers are ganged with a
metal clip (for the AC) and the two outside breakers are ganged with a U-
shaped metal (for the dryer).

I had 30/30 breakers, which are much harder to find. But they're replaced
now, one for one, and it's all testing and working fine. If only I hadn't
trusted the LICENSED technician, I would have solved this problem ten
days ago as soon as I figured out that the 120V reading of the fan and
compressor was not correct (it should have been 240 volts).

If you mentioned that he fan
was not starting either earlier in your post many of us could have told
you that does not suggest the compressor. Both are powered from the
contactor. It's unlikely that both would have failed at the same time.

Now, embarrassingly, I realize that's an obvious sign that it's NOT the
compressor! But remember, I TRUSTED the LICENSED technician (and spoke to
him for 40 minutes about it). He couldn't explain why the fan wasn't
working; but he was positive the compressor was the culprit. How can I
possibly second guess a LICENSED technician, especially when he's the
ONLY ONE allowed to fix the problem (I'm not allowed to fix it, by law!).

had you known a reliable service guy
you could have got it fixed on a single call for less than you have
spent.

My real estate agent referenced this company, Comfort Energy. She has
been my savior with MANY problems, so I had every reason to trust the
recommendation! Also, I must repeat, these people are LICENSED by
someone. And, I'm not allowed to work on this unit. So, I have to trust
them.

Of course, in hindsight, that trust was badly misdirected, but, all this
time I had trusted their very definite opinion. In fact, the VP called me
when I complained that the licensed technician's explanation made no
sense to me, and he attempted to prove that the compressor was bad also
as he said the voltage was "within 5%" and provided other details (saying
the thermoswitch inside is bad because it didn't click) convincing me
that the compressor was bad. That's when I went on my ten-day journey to
find a good compressor to replace the 'bad' one.

PS: I use one nym per unrelated thread when I have more than one at the
same time; but accidentally used the other nym in the previous post.
Sorry for the confusion.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:07:30 +0000, U vigilance wrote:

Yesterday, I called the co-president of "Comfort Energy", Yuka Abbot, at
408-263-3100. http://www.comfortzone-air.com (formerly Comfort Zone
Mechanical Air Company).

Ooops. I use one nym per unrelated thread when I have more than one at
the same time; but accidentally used this nym to respond. This should
have been with the arkland nym. Sorry for the confusion.

On Sep 17, 11:17*am, arkland wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:33:21 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:
For what it's worth, that is more commonly called a ganged breaker and
you do not need all 4 to be ganged if two are for your hvac and two are
for your dryer. *You can use the much more common two ganged breakers
from lowes or home depot.

Actually, Home Depot and Lowes only had 20/30 "ganged breakers" and they
do work exactly as you noted. Since every other position on the main
panel is the other hot lead, the two inside breakers are ganged with a
metal clip (for the AC) and the two outside breakers are ganged with a U-
shaped metal (for the dryer).

I had 30/30 breakers, which are much harder to find. But they're replaced
now, one for one, and it's all testing and working fine. If only I hadn't
trusted the LICENSED technician, I would have solved this problem ten
days ago as soon as I figured out that the 120V reading of the fan and
compressor was not correct (it should have been 240 volts).

If you mentioned that he fan
was not starting either earlier in your post many of us could have told
you that does not suggest the compressor. *Both are powered from the
contactor. *It's unlikely that both would have failed at the same time.

Now, embarrassingly, I realize that's an obvious sign that it's NOT the
compressor!

I'd say the embarrasing thing here is that you did not check
for voltage at the unit as the first step. It doesn't get any
more basic than that. Outside unit not running, first things
to check are if it has voltage and if the contactor is closing.

Also, while from what you've described I think the compay
is crooked, I don't see how they did anything to damage your
compressor.



But remember, I TRUSTED the LICENSED technician (and spoke to
him for 40 minutes about it). He couldn't explain why the fan wasn't
working; but he was positive the compressor was the culprit. How can I
possibly second guess a LICENSED technician, especially when he's the
ONLY ONE allowed to fix the problem (I'm not allowed to fix it, by law!).


I second guess every contractor that I don't have a good deal
of personal experience with. Also, you are legally allowed to fix
some
of the system. You just can't work on the refrigerant section doing
anything that could possibly result in the release of refrigerant. In
your case, the problem was something perfectly legal for you
to fix, ie it not getting power.





had you known a reliable service guy
you could have got it fixed on a single call for less than you have
spent. *

My real estate agent referenced this company, Comfort Energy. She has
been my savior with MANY problems, so I had every reason to trust the
recommendation! Also, I must repeat, these people are LICENSED by
someone. And, I'm not allowed to work on this unit. So, I have to trust
them.

Of course, in hindsight, that trust was badly misdirected, but, all this
time I had trusted their very definite opinion. In fact, the VP called me
when I complained that the licensed technician's explanation made no
sense to me, and he attempted to prove that the compressor was bad also
as he said the voltage was "within 5%" and provided other details (saying
the thermoswitch inside is bad because it didn't click) convincing me
that the compressor was bad. That's when I went on my ten-day journey to
find a good compressor to replace the 'bad' one.

PS: I use one nym per unrelated thread when I have more than one at the
same time; but accidentally used the other nym in the previous post.
Sorry for the confusion.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:07:30 +0000 (UTC), U vigilance
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:23:54 -0700, Oren wrote:

In Nevada, NSCB even has a "most wanted" list of crooked "contractors."

Yesterday, I called the co-president of "Comfort Energy", Yuka Abbot, at
408-263-3100. http://www.comfortzone-air.com (formerly Comfort Zone
Mechanical Air Company).

She was good enough to listen to what I had to say, which was mostly that
neither my fan nor my compressor was working, but it had 24 volts as the
contactor was working fine and the capacitor appeared undamaged. I
explained the experience tracking down the wrong diagnosis cost me a
couple hundred dollars and ten days and that I didn't want a little old
lady to have the same problem in the future.

She said she'd have her husband, the VP, Harry Abbott, a former cop, call
me, but, instead, they directed E.J. Hansen, the manager of the
technicians to talk to me by phone. To his credit, he almost immediately
did so.


If you can get your $200 back, fine.
Maybe the guy's honest and will fire or train his tech, maybe not.
I'd still do the BBB complaint to try to protect the little old ladies
Just remember licensing doesn't mean you're not dealing with a crook
or incompetent.
If you can't do the diagnosis yourself, when somebody says it'll cost
you $4000, just get somebody else in.
At $4000, I'd probably go to a 4th opinion.
Honestly, I've never had this problem with repairs.
When I had to replace my lift system pump I was willing to pay one
joker about $1500 more than I ended up getting it done for, but that
pales compared to your story.
My Ma got taken by a chimney shaker for about 3 grand.
Real sleazeball.
Even me and 2 big brothers-in-law visiting the guy in his office
couldn't shake the money loose.
We didn't go beyond veiled threats. We wanted to think hard before
become lawbreakers ourselves,
In the meantime Ma filed a complaint with the States Attorney and got
her money back in a few weeks.
If I got screwed hard that's where I'd go.
Beyond complaining, you shouldn't let it bother you too much.
Too many crooks out there.

--Vic

On Sep 17, 11:07*am, U vigilance wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:23:54 -0700, Oren wrote:
In Nevada, NSCB even has a "most wanted" list of crooked "contractors."

Yesterday, I called the co-president of "Comfort Energy", Yuka Abbot, at
408-263-3100.http://www.comfortzone-air.com(formerly Comfort Zone
Mechanical Air Company).

She was good enough to listen to what I had to say, which was mostly that
neither my fan nor my compressor was working, but it had 24 volts as the
contactor was working fine and the capacitor appeared undamaged. *I
explained the experience tracking down the wrong diagnosis cost me a
couple hundred dollars and ten days and that I didn't want a little old
lady to have the same problem in the future.

She said she'd have her husband, the VP, Harry Abbott, a former cop, call
me, but, instead, they directed E.J. Hansen, the manager of the
technicians to talk to me by phone. To his credit, he almost immediately
did so.

He was personable, understanding, and said he'd call me on Wednesday to
let me know the resolution.

I'm out two hundred dollars plus my compressor is (self) damaged as I was
all this time trying to figure out what was wrong with it since they
expressly told me it was the bad part. In doing so, I removed the lower
heating thermoswitch, which turned out to not have any bearing on the
problem (of course, since the entire AC system was working in the first
place ... it just didn't have power).

I had taken that part to Marcone (who had never seen one before), and to
APED (who likewise had never seen them) and to Appliance Parts on the
Alameda in San Jose, who also had never seen it. However, John at
Appliance parts kindly referred me to Northaire in northern San Jose who
knew right away what it was. (Remember, it was Greg at Northaire who
patiently explained to me there was no way a bad fan and bad compressor
would be anything other than the capacitor, contactor, or bad power).
When I explained the power readings I obtained both before and after the
Comfort Energy visit, Greg stopped right there, and said "it's clear as
day", you have only one leg of power.

A customer, Jim, a licensed electrician and A/C guy, offered to stop by
to help me, and we exchanged calls and set up an appointment because he
too said a lot of companies aren't truthful when dealing with air
conditioners (which requires licensed technicians).

At that point, I finally realized that this is a 'special' case because
we are FORCED to trust the LICENSED people to work on our A/C. Remember,
I've talked to a dozen companies by now, and they all clam up when they
realize that I'm not a licensed technician. They won't even tell me the
price of a compressor! They certainly won't sell it to me. In fact, some
expressed surprise that they'd sell me the contactor and/or capacitor!

Anyway, after all this, the problem embarrassingly, was simply that the
circuit breaker was bad. There was only 120v at the A/C unit fuses
instead of 240 volts. But they CLEARLY (and REPEATEDLY) told me the
compressor was bad. They couldn't explain why the fan wasn' working which
made no sense to me but I had to trust them as they're the experts, not
me. And they're the only ones LICENSED to work on this A/C unit, not me!

Proving that point, unfortunately, I broke the plastic surrounds around
that thermoswitch in the process. This bottom plug in simply warms the
compressor oil, but now my compressor is likely to fail sooner simply
because of the mis-diagnosis of a compressor failure by Comfort Energy.

The end result is that it cost me a compressor component, ten days, and
two hundred dollars.

Yet, that's cheap compared to the $4000 they were desperately trying to
sell me.

After talking to Yuka Abbott, and to E.J Hansen, I'm not sure which of
the three possibilities (well, actually two) are correct:
1. I'm wrong and the technician did a good job == almost impossible
2. The technician failed to test that 240 volts existed at the AC unit
==50%
3. The technician committed the crime of fraud == 50%

The company, seemingly sincerely, is telling me that it's #2, an honest
mistake. I'll wait 'till Wednesday to make my decision as to whether or
not I will file a suit, file a grievance with the state, or what.

The problem is that this is happening to others who don't doublecheck the
technician! How do we prevent this from happening again?

I sympathize with you problem getting a competent guy to llok at it.
But you shouldn't have just started removing parts you did not know
what did or have any reason to believe the were bad. You really don't
need the compressor oil heater if this is truly just an AC. You
generally only need those on Heat Pumps. Once you start running an AC
it's warm enough outside that you do not need to heat the compressor
oil. Or is this another item you failed to tell us, this is really a
heat pump?

I'm sure it happens often. Sadly, so. The sandwich board
idea is fun, but how many people drive to the showroom to
ask for service?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"arkland" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 22:42:19 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Wear a sandwich board, and protest in front of their
office for a week?

Heh heh. I love that idea!

There may be a bigger (hidden) point in the joke which is
that it's just
not worth the time and energy.

You may be right. I've never filed a complaint before but
I'd really hate
to see someone get reamed by Comfort Energy who doesn't at
least have the
friends like you guys helping out.

What if a little old lady or someone too busy to double
check them gets
told their $4000 AC is out when all it is is a $25 bad
circuit breaker?

When they tell you it's going to be $4,000, say thanks and
I'll think on it. And then call two other service companies
for estimates.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"U vigilance" wrote in message
...

The problem is that this is happening to others who don't
doublecheck the
technician! How do we prevent this from happening again?

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:42:49 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:

Once you start running an AC it's warm enough
outside that you do not need to heat the compressor oil. Or is this
another item you failed to tell us, this is really a heat pump?

I don't know what a heat pump is, but this is 'only' an AC unit which is
only used in the summer when it's hot.

Greg at Northaire, in San Jose, also told me that it's not 'needed',
because it only heats the oil.

Please realize the ONLY reason I was 'removing things' is because the
licensed technician was sure it was the compressor; otherwise, I wouldn't
have removed the heating plug at the bottom of the compressor itself. (I
thought it might be the bi-metallic strip they kept mentioning 'must be
out'.

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:21:35 -0700, wrote:

I'd say the embarrassing thing here is that you did not check for
voltage
at the unit as the first step. It doesn't get any more basic than that.

Actually, I did. I checked voltage at the fuses right next to the A/C
beforehand, and 'both' leads were the same 120volts! I thought that was
weird, as there were 0 volts between them! (Now, I know, the circuit
breaker must have been broken inside to allow that!). But I didn't know
then that that's the way this thing worked (as I couldn't comprehend it
so that's why I called the AC guy in).

Once the AC licensed technician told me the voltage was fine, I
'assumed' (yes, that's my mistake) he was right and therefore, the 'same'
120 volt line must be split up on the white and black lines going into
that AC-only fuse panel. How wrong he was and how wrong I was to trust
him.

A week or so later, when we finally had concluded the original licensed
technician was either lying or outright incompetent, we measured again,
and guess what? It was 28 volts at the one lead, and 120 across, and
something like 85 volts between them!

By now, I knew enough to go to the circuit breaker, where I saw the same
thing; and then, removing the outgoing wires from that circuit breaker, I
could finally see the 0 volts on one lead and 120v on the other (with 120
on both leads going in).

Once the breaker was replaced, the normal 120 on each and 240 across
resumed, and, the A/C unit worked (which never had a problem in the first
place!).

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:21:35 -0700, wrote:

Also, while from what you've described I think the compay is crooked, I
don't see how they did anything to damage your compressor.

THEY didn't damage the compressor. I damaged it by trusting their
licensed technician, but, not understanding why he said the compressor
was clearly bad but he then couldn't explain why the fan wouldn't go on.

He was lying, of course, so none of his licensed bull**** made any sense
to me, but he was VERY CLEAR on the compressor being definitely bad and
the voltage input being definitely good!

I trusted this LICENSED technician but couldn't understand him fully (but
I figured that's just the way AC works). It didn't help that everyone I
called would barely talk to me once they found out I wasn't a licensed
trusted technician myself.

So I had to figure it all out from you guys, and, the four store's parts
people:
- Appliance Parts Equipment Distributor (Stevenscreek Blvd, San Jose)
- Appliance Parts (El Camino Real, San Jose)
- Marcone Appliance Parts (Race Street, San Jose)
- NorthAire (Zanker Street, San Jose)

If it weren't for you guys, and those four counter people (and multiple
calls to Amana, Hier America, Emerson, & Copeland Compressors), I'd never
have figured out the problem and would have gone with replacing the
entire system.

The problem now, is that the little old ladies are getting fleeced by
this company. Unless they tell me otherwise on the call next Wednesday!

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 08:26:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'm sure it happens often. Sadly, so. The sandwich board idea is fun,
but how many people drive to the showroom to ask for service?

SOMEBODY must 'license' these licensed technicians.

I'm sure there must be a board specific for AC licensing that would care
about the facts of this situation.

On Sep 18, 1:26*pm, arkland wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:42:49 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:
Once you start running an AC it's warm enough
outside that you do not need to heat the compressor oil. *Or is this
another item you failed to tell us, this is really a heat pump?

I don't know what a heat pump is, but this is 'only' an AC unit which is
only used in the summer when it's hot.

Greg at Northaire, in San Jose, also told me that it's not 'needed',
because it only heats the oil.

Please realize the ONLY reason I was 'removing things' is because the
licensed technician was sure it was the compressor; otherwise, I wouldn't
have removed the heating plug at the bottom of the compressor itself. (I
thought it might be the bi-metallic strip they kept mentioning 'must be
out'.

He's right, you do not need the compressor heater if it's straight
ac. Once it's hot eough for you to need ac then it's hot enough for
the compressor oil.

The bimetalic strip is a overload switch inside the compressor.
Completely non-servicable.

The tech and you may have both been mislead if you used a newer high
impedance meter and the unit was turned off. A bad connection can
still allow enough current to make a meter think it has 120vac. As
soon as you put an actual load on the cicuit it will drop way down,
sometimes to zero. It always pays to turn whatever you are testing on
when measuring voltages. That way you have a load on the circuit.

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 18:41:09 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:

A bad connection can still
allow enough current to make a meter think it has 120vac. As soon as
you put an actual load on the cicuit it will drop way down

What 'was' weird, was that, at first, before I called in the licensed
technician, I read off my Fluke 77 DMM 120 VAC on both the black and
white lead coming in ... but zero volts between them.

Again, that was not what I expected (I had expected 220 VAC between
them), but, at that time, I wasn't sure how the wiring worked. (Now I
know better - and so should have, IMHO, the licensed technician).

Then the licensed technician came in, and said the compressor was bad.
When I called the company to ask why then the fan wasn't also working,
they said the technician, "Matt", had tested the voltage to be "within
5%" and that he was sure it was the compressor that was bad.

I spent the next week or so tracking down compressors ... but about ten
days after the first measurement (after the circuit breaker had been
turned on and off perhaps a dozen or more times during the tests of the
compressor), the voltage changed!

It was then 120 vols at one wire, and only 25 volts AC at the other wire.
Across the two was about 85 volts. Weird!

I instantly knew now, that the problem had NOTHING to do with the AC; it
was all about the input voltage (and I'm embarrassed to say it took me
this long to figure something that simple out - but again - I had trusted
the LICENSED technician who said the voltage was "within 5%").

Back at the circuit panel, the same 120v, 25 volts existed, until I
disconnected the wiring and then the one side went to zero.

When I replaced the 30/30amp ganged (two in the middle, two on the
outside) breaker, everything worked just fine.

BTW, why would 25 volts exist on the circuit breaker output terminal when
the circuit breaker wires were connected, but zero volts on that line
when I pulled the wire out of the circuit breaker output terminal?

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:38:53 +0000, arkland wrote:

I'm sure there must be a board specific for AC licensing that would care
about the facts of this situation.

To update the team, the company manager of the technicians called me on
Wednesday and said they were re-training their technician, Matt, and that
they would pay me $200 for my out-of-pocket and other expenses in
addition to not charging me for their initial service call.

I must say they appeared 'reasonable' when confronted with the facts
(only the technician himself, and the Comfort Energy VP, who is the
husband of the owner of Comfort Energy) 'argued' with me that the
compressor was definitely bad. He only backed off when I told him I
wasn't paying anything until I had that, and the measurements, in
writing.

I guess a moral of the story is to get in writing all measurements,
whenever you're in an area beyond your expertise (which I clearly was, in
this case).

Without you guys, I would never have been able to track down the problem
(and the helpful counter guy, Greg, at Northaire in San Jose!).

On Sep 23, 2:52*pm, arkland wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 18:41:09 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:
A bad connection can still
allow enough current to make a meter think it has 120vac. *As soon as
you put an actual load on the cicuit it will drop way down

What 'was' weird, was that, at first, before I called in the licensed
technician, I read off my Fluke 77 DMM 120 VAC on both the black and
white lead coming in ... but zero volts between them.

Again, that was not what I expected (I had expected 220 VAC between
them), but, at that time, I wasn't sure how the wiring worked. (Now I
know better - and so should have, IMHO, the licensed technician).

Then the licensed technician came in, and said the compressor was bad.
When I called the company to ask why then the fan wasn't also working,
they said the technician, "Matt", had tested the voltage to be "within
5%" and that he was sure it was the compressor that was bad.

I spent the next week or so tracking down compressors ... but about ten
days after the first measurement (after the circuit breaker had been
turned on and off perhaps a dozen or more times during the tests of the
compressor), the voltage changed!

It was then 120 vols at one wire, and only 25 volts AC at the other wire.
Across the two was about 85 volts. Weird!

I instantly knew now, that the problem had NOTHING to do with the AC; it
was all about the input voltage (and I'm embarrassed to say it took me
this long to figure something that simple out - but again - I had trusted
the LICENSED technician who said the voltage was "within 5%").

Back at the circuit panel, the same 120v, 25 volts existed, until I
disconnected the wiring and then the one side went to zero.

When I replaced the 30/30amp ganged (two in the middle, two on the
outside) breaker, everything worked just fine.

BTW, why would 25 volts exist on the circuit breaker output terminal when
the circuit breaker wires were connected, but zero volts on that line
when I pulled the wire out of the circuit breaker output terminal?

That's one of the things you have to watch for with high impedance
digital meters. A very bad connection that is megohms will give you
enough current flow to show something on a meter when there is no load
on the circuit. Always test with the device turned on. In your case
I'll bet the reading would have been zero if the contactor was engaged.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:59:00 +0000 (UTC), arkland
wrote:

To update the team, the company manager of the technicians called me on
Wednesday and said they were re-training their technician, Matt, and that
they would pay me $200 for my out-of-pocket and other expenses in
addition to not charging me for their initial service call.

Feel better now. not so mad?

I've known people you had to train after a coffee break.

On Sep 23, 2:52*pm, arkland wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 18:41:09 -0700, jamesgangnc wrote:
A bad connection can still
allow enough current to make a meter think it has 120vac. *As soon as
you put an actual load on the cicuit it will drop way down

What 'was' weird, was that, at first, before I called in the licensed
technician, I read off my Fluke 77 DMM 120 VAC on both the black and
white lead coming in ... but zero volts between them.

You should give that Fluke to someone that knows how to use
it. If you can't use it to figure out that 240V is not at the outside
unit, you should not be screwing around with it. End of story.
Taking parts out of a working AC without figuring out if it has
power is just plain stupid. The tech you had out is a crook.
But you are a fool to be working on something that you haven't
got a clue about.




Again, that was not what I expected (I had expected 220 VAC between
them), but, at that time, I wasn't sure how the wiring worked. (Now I
know better - and so should have, IMHO, the licensed technician).

Yeah, the tech should have. And so should you if you're gonna
start screwing around with it.





Then the licensed technician came in, and said the compressor was bad.
When I called the company to ask why then the fan wasn't also working,
they said the technician, "Matt", had tested the voltage to be "within
5%" and that he was sure it was the compressor that was bad.

I spent the next week or so tracking down compressors ... but about ten
days after the first measurement (after the circuit breaker had been
turned on and off perhaps a dozen or more times during the tests of the
compressor), the voltage changed!

It was then 120 vols at one wire, and only 25 volts AC at the other wire.
Across the two was about 85 volts. Weird!


What;s weird is someone screwing around with eqpt when
they are clueless.



I instantly knew now, that the problem had NOTHING to do with the AC; it
was all about the input voltage (and I'm embarrassed to say it took me
this long to figure something that simple out - but again - I had trusted
the LICENSED technician who said the voltage was "within 5%").

It's not about trusting someone else. It's about knowing what
you are doing. You think if you took you car to a service shop
they would say, well the last guy said the O2 sensor was OK,
so no need to look there?




Back at the circuit panel, the same 120v, 25 volts existed, until I
disconnected the wiring and then the one side went to zero.

When I replaced the 30/30amp ganged (two in the middle, two on the
outside) breaker, everything worked just fine.

Frightening to think you're inside the panel.



BTW, why would 25 volts exist on the circuit breaker output terminal when
the circuit breaker wires were connected, but zero volts on that line
when I pulled the wire out of the circuit breaker output terminal?

On Sep 23, 2:59*pm, arkland wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:38:53 +0000, arkland wrote:
I'm sure there must be a board specific for AC licensing that would care
about the facts of this situation.

To update the team, the company manager of the technicians called me on
Wednesday and said they were re-training their technician, Matt, and that
they would pay me $200 for my out-of-pocket and other expenses in
addition to not charging me for their initial service call.

I must say they appeared 'reasonable' when confronted with the facts
(only the technician himself, and the Comfort Energy VP, who is the
husband of the owner of Comfort Energy) 'argued' with me that the
compressor was definitely bad. He only backed off when I told him I
wasn't paying anything until I had that, and the measurements, in
writing.

Are you totally stupid? They clearly tried to rip you off. That
isn't a
mistake, it;s deliberate. And now you're implying that you'd pay them
if they had "measurements in writing?" WTF? They told you the
compressor was shot and the power to the unti was OK. You
found out that it was a bad breaker and after replacing it, it's
running OK. So, WTF are you talking about?



I guess a moral of the story is to get in writing all measurements,
whenever you're in an area beyond your expertise (which I clearly was, in
this case).

Yeah, that's for sure. You're not even an educated consumer
let alone competent to work on an AC. Give the Fluke to
someone who can use it.




Without you guys, I would never have been able to track down the problem
(and the helpful counter guy, Greg, at Northaire in San Jose!).

It's remarkable you didn't get killed in the process.