SMS wrote:

-Length of each trip
-Temperature of the engine when started (coolant temperature)
-Temperature of each trip (ambient)
-Speed of each trip
-Mileage since previous oil change
-Time since previous oil change
-Cumulative mileage of the vehicle
-How much the turbo-charger is used (if present)
-Load (determined by transmission gear and engine rpm)

and Idle time

On 8/31/2011 6:24 PM, SMS wrote:
On 8/31/2011 2:47 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 8/30/2011 9:17 PM, SMS wrote:
If changing oil at 3000 miles is
cheap insurance, than changing it at 2000 miles, or 1000 miles, is even
more cheap insurance, though actually changing oil too often is not good
for the engine either.


Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the engine.

Two reasons actually.

First is that new oil has chemicals that accelerate the deterioration of
the catalytic converter.

"That oil change? Turns out every 5,000 miles is often enough. New oil
has chemicals that eat away the catalytic converter, says Donny Seyfer,
a Colorado-based certified master technician, and changing oil too often
can damage that pricey part."

So when did the catalytic converter become an engine part?

Second is that as the oil ages it becomes less volatile.

"Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil
change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.

Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost
fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the
rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and
intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it
combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet
valves and combustion chambers in gunk."

Bottom line, do your engine a favor and don't overdo it. 5000 mile oil
changes are more than enough.

Now you may have had some real info above, I don't know, but you ruin it
all by telling me how often to change my oil without knowing what kind
of vehicle I drive, or under what conditions I drive it in.

On 8/31/2011 3:38 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 8/31/2011 6:24 PM, SMS wrote:
On 8/31/2011 2:47 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 8/30/2011 9:17 PM, SMS wrote:
If changing oil at 3000 miles is
cheap insurance, than changing it at 2000 miles, or 1000 miles, is even
more cheap insurance, though actually changing oil too often is not
good
for the engine either.


Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the
engine.

Two reasons actually.

First is that new oil has chemicals that accelerate the deterioration of
the catalytic converter.

"That oil change? Turns out every 5,000 miles is often enough. New oil
has chemicals that eat away the catalytic converter, says Donny Seyfer,
a Colorado-based certified master technician, and changing oil too often
can damage that pricey part."

So when did the catalytic converter become an engine part?

Yes, you're right. I should have distinguished between exhaust system
components and actual moving engine parts. BTW, certain oils cause more
problems for catalytic converters than others.

Second is that as the oil ages it becomes less volatile.

"Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil
change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.

Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost
fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the
rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and
intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it
combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet
valves and combustion chambers in gunk."

Bottom line, do your engine a favor and don't overdo it. 5000 mile oil
changes are more than enough.

Now you may have had some real info above, I don't know, but you ruin it
all by telling me how often to change my oil without knowing what kind
of vehicle I drive, or under what conditions I drive it in.

You're right. You may actually have a vehicle that requires 3000 mile
oil changes. Sorry.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:57:35 -0700, sms88
wrote:

On 8/31/2011 1:44 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:18:24 -0700,
wrote:

On 8/30/2011 8:10 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 8/30/2011 9:09 PM, ed_h wrote:

Ignore your owner's manual at your peril. You're wrong.

Many owner's manuals, including mine, don't include the definition of
severe service. They say to change the oil when the engine oil
monitor says to, or 7500 miles, whichever comes first. The later is
apparently to cover the possibility of a failed monitor.

For my rather typical driving, which often includes some of the items
on the severe service list, my monitor tells me to change oil at
around 7000 miles.

"The List" is hard to apply to a specific car and driver.
Intentionally, maybe.

I'd like to see the manual that doesn't have a sever recommendation.

New Toyotas sold in the U.S.. Toyota may have over-reacted, but they
believed that there were too many people that qualified for severe
service (5000 miles) that were following the normal service (7500
miles), so they went to 5000 miles period. This may change as they fit
newer models with oil monitoring systems, since the result has been many
people changing their oil far more often than necessary.

In YOUR opinion.

No, it's not my opinion. When the whole sludge thing happened Toyota
stated that it was the result of drivers that should have followed the
severe service oil change interval (5000 miles) following the normal oil
change interval (7500 miles). They thought it too confusing to have the
two service schedules so they rolled everything back to 5000 miles.

If the extra oil changes eliminate the sludge/coke
failures, they are NOT being changed far more often than "necessary"

No argument there. But it's still a far cry from the days of lower
quality oils when 3000 miles was the norm.
Like I said before - it's NOT better oils - it's less agressive
fuels and better mixture control - which allows what ammounts to a
POORER oil to do an adequate job. To be more accurate, a slightly
DIFFERENT oil - better in some ways, inferior in others.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:47:41 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 8/30/2011 9:17 PM, SMS wrote:
If changing oil at 3000 miles is
cheap insurance, than changing it at 2000 miles, or 1000 miles, is even
more cheap insurance, though actually changing oil too often is not good
for the engine either.


Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the engine.
There's some guys out there believe slightly dirty oil is better -
they think the detergent package is "too agrssive". No credible
evidence to support the theory.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:24:56 -0700, SMS
wrote:

On 8/31/2011 2:47 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 8/30/2011 9:17 PM, SMS wrote:
If changing oil at 3000 miles is
cheap insurance, than changing it at 2000 miles, or 1000 miles, is even
more cheap insurance, though actually changing oil too often is not good
for the engine either.


Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the engine.

Two reasons actually.

First is that new oil has chemicals that accelerate the deterioration of
the catalytic converter.


Not any more - and that is only a factor if the engine burns oil.
Engines burn more oil when the oil gets old.
"That oil change? Turns out every 5,000 miles is often enough. New oil
has chemicals that eat away the catalytic converter, says Donny Seyfer,
a Colorado-based certified master technician, and changing oil too often
can damage that pricey part."

Second is that as the oil ages it becomes less volatile.
Because it has deteriorated. And in ACTUAL FACT the rate of oil
consumption INCREASES as the oil accumulates mileage. Quality oils
don't avaporate appreciably.

"Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil
change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.

Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost
fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the
rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and
intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it
combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet
valves and combustion chambers in gunk."

Bottom line, do your engine a favor and don't overdo it. 5000 mile oil
changes are more than enough.
In many cases 5000 miles IS adequate.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:14:54 -0700, SMS
wrote:

On 8/31/2011 3:38 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 8/31/2011 6:24 PM, SMS wrote:
On 8/31/2011 2:47 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 8/30/2011 9:17 PM, SMS wrote:
If changing oil at 3000 miles is
cheap insurance, than changing it at 2000 miles, or 1000 miles, is even
more cheap insurance, though actually changing oil too often is not
good
for the engine either.


Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the
engine.

Two reasons actually.

First is that new oil has chemicals that accelerate the deterioration of
the catalytic converter.

"That oil change? Turns out every 5,000 miles is often enough. New oil
has chemicals that eat away the catalytic converter, says Donny Seyfer,
a Colorado-based certified master technician, and changing oil too often
can damage that pricey part."

So when did the catalytic converter become an engine part?

Yes, you're right. I should have distinguished between exhaust system
components and actual moving engine parts. BTW, certain oils cause more
problems for catalytic converters than others.


And the CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED AND SUPPLIED oils do NOT damage the cat.
They have almost totally removed the zinc and phosphorous extreme
pressure additives from all the oils from 10W40 down
Second is that as the oil ages it becomes less volatile.

"Oil volatility is at its greatest in the first 3000km after an oil
change. After that the volatility reduces and the oil stabilises.

Volatility is particularly bad for a DI engine because all of the lost
fractions exit via the PCV system. Much of it goes out through the
rocker cover vent, into the intake, through the turbo compressor and
intercooler, then puddles in the bottom of the inlet manifold where it
combines with the stuff coming through the PCV valve to coat the inlet
valves and combustion chambers in gunk."

Bottom line, do your engine a favor and don't overdo it. 5000 mile oil
changes are more than enough.

Now you may have had some real info above, I don't know, but you ruin it
all by telling me how often to change my oil without knowing what kind
of vehicle I drive, or under what conditions I drive it in.

You're right. You may actually have a vehicle that requires 3000 mile
oil changes. Sorry.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:34:14 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:14:54 -0700, SMS
wrote:

On 8/31/2011 3:38 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:


So when did the catalytic converter become an engine part?

Yes, you're right. I should have distinguished between exhaust system
components and actual moving engine parts. BTW, certain oils cause more
problems for catalytic converters than others.


And the CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED AND SUPPLIED oils do NOT damage the cat.
They have almost totally removed the zinc and phosphorous extreme
pressure additives from all the oils from 10W40 down

Steven simply uses what he can to bolster his long oil change
argument.
I don't think he knows that the big push in engine oils is low SAPS,
low volatility.
And he doesn't know that phosphorous volatility is unrelated to new
oil volatility, but is related to additive package.
Otherwise he wouldn't have used the entirely bogus claim about oil
volatiles only affecting the cat for the first 500 miles of oil life..
He gleaned crackpot comments from the net instead of using established
science to support his "idea" of when you should change your oil.
He's been doing this for years.
Just hates changing his damn oil.
I don't know why he just doesn't admit that.

--Vic

On 8/31/2011 5:34 PM, wrote:

And the CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED AND SUPPLIED oils do NOT damage the cat.
They have almost totally removed the zinc and phosphorous extreme
pressure additives from all the oils from 10W40 down

That's correct, except for many of the Amsoil products which should not
be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

wrote

Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the engine.
There's some guys out there believe slightly dirty oil is better -
they think the detergent package is "too agrssive". No credible
evidence to support the theory.

They may be correct if you suddenly put a good detergent oil in a '53 Chevy
in-line 6.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:58:01 -0700, SMS
wrote:

On 8/31/2011 5:34 PM, wrote:

And the CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED AND SUPPLIED oils do NOT damage the cat.
They have almost totally removed the zinc and phosphorous extreme
pressure additives from all the oils from 10W40 down

That's correct, except for many of the Amsoil products which should not
be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.
They shouldn't be used in anything worth more than the oil, in my
opinion.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:13:53 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote

Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the engine.
There's some guys out there believe slightly dirty oil is better -
they think the detergent package is "too agrssive". No credible
evidence to support the theory.

They may be correct if you suddenly put a good detergent oil in a '53 Chevy
in-line 6.
And not even then if the engine is freshened up first. (and an oil
filter installed - since to the best of my recollection the filter
wasn't standard on the 235 stove-bolt)

On 8/31/2011 7:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the
engine.
There's some guys out there believe slightly dirty oil is better -
they think the detergent package is "too agrssive". No credible
evidence to support the theory.

They may be correct if you suddenly put a good detergent oil in a '53
Chevy in-line 6.

It's not that they believe that slightly dirty oil is better, it's that
they believe, correctly, that the additives (not just detergent
additives) are in new oil in volumes designed for normal oil change
intervals.

What the manufacturers of motor oil should do is to market an oil
designed for short oil change intervals with lower quantities of
additives, sort of the opposite of the synthetic oils. If you look at
Amsoil, in their flagship product they have such a high quantity of ZDDP
that they cannot get API certification because they contain too much
phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl
Dithiophosphates)).

The other option would be to do short-interval oil changes with half
multi-weight detergent oils, and half straight 30W oil (assuming your
engine calls for 10W30). You don't need the quantities of additives
present in multi-weight oil if you're going to change the oil at only
3000 miles, though you do lose some of the low-temperature viscosity if
you dilute the multi-weight oil.

The fact that it would be better to just do oil changes at the proper
interval is immaterial. There is a big market out there to sell
ridiculous products to clueless people.

In article ,
SMS wrote:

The algorithms each manufacturer
uses are proprietary

Is algorithm a euphemism for "random number generator?"

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 07:40:37 -0700, SMS
wrote:

On 8/31/2011 7:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Please tell me how changing the oil too often is not good for the
engine.
There's some guys out there believe slightly dirty oil is better -
they think the detergent package is "too agrssive". No credible
evidence to support the theory.

They may be correct if you suddenly put a good detergent oil in a '53
Chevy in-line 6.

It's not that they believe that slightly dirty oil is better, it's that
they believe, correctly, that the additives (not just detergent
additives) are in new oil in volumes designed for normal oil change
intervals.

What the manufacturers of motor oil should do is to market an oil
designed for short oil change intervals with lower quantities of
additives, sort of the opposite of the synthetic oils. If you look at
Amsoil, in their flagship product they have such a high quantity of ZDDP
that they cannot get API certification because they contain too much
phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl
Dithiophosphates)).

The other option would be to do short-interval oil changes with half
multi-weight detergent oils, and half straight 30W oil (assuming your
engine calls for 10W30). You don't need the quantities of additives
present in multi-weight oil if you're going to change the oil at only
3000 miles, though you do lose some of the low-temperature viscosity if
you dilute the multi-weight oil.

You don't have a CLUE what you are talking about. Some straight grade
oils have a much higher level of additives than many multi-grade oils.
There is NO co-relation between additive levels and viscosity - except
for the VI improvers added to multi-grade oils that straight grade
oils don't get - but they have nothing to do with improving the
lifespan of an oil. In actual fact, Multigrade oils have a SHORTER
lifespan than straight grade oils due to shear degradation of the
long-chain polymers used to stabilize the viscosity. This is another
reason extended drain intervals are not a good idea, particularly with
broad viscosity range oils. Nothing wrong with 10W40 or 20W50 oil
with a relatively short drain interval - but they start suffering
shear degradation around 5000 miles under normal service - shorter
distance under high load and high speed (engine bearing surface speed
- not road speed) use. More pronounced in today's highly stressed,
tightly wound, little 4 bangers.
The fact that it would be better to just do oil changes at the proper
interval is immaterial. There is a big market out there to sell
ridiculous products to clueless people.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:14:55 -0700, SMS wrote:
You have to wonder why, in Europe, the average oil change interval is
10,000 miles while it's 5000 miles in the U.S.

Hmm, most of Europe uses km, not mi - are you sure you're not mixing up
units? I used to do oil changes around 6000mi in England (on my modern
vehicles - I still did my vintage ones at 3000mi) - which isn't too
different from 10,000km.

That's still higher than the US, of course, but only twice as much :-)

Historically, I think the US was reluctant to change tried-and-tested
engine designs, at a time where much of the rest of the world was aiming
for better efficiency and power to weight ratios. That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

(My brother in law's a GM mechanic, incidentally, and I know he quotes
3000mi - I'll try and remember to ask him why next time I see him :-)

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:46:41 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:14:55 -0700, SMS wrote:
You have to wonder why, in Europe, the average oil change interval is
10,000 miles while it's 5000 miles in the U.S.

Hmm, most of Europe uses km, not mi - are you sure you're not mixing up
units? I used to do oil changes around 6000mi in England (on my modern
vehicles - I still did my vintage ones at 3000mi) - which isn't too
different from 10,000km.

That's still higher than the US, of course, but only twice as much :-)

Historically, I think the US was reluctant to change tried-and-tested
engine designs, at a time where much of the rest of the world was aiming
for better efficiency and power to weight ratios.

In the US, for better or worse, pollution controls have trumped efficiency.

That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

So you know better than the engineers who designed the engine?

(My brother in law's a GM mechanic, incidentally, and I know he quotes
3000mi - I'll try and remember to ask him why next time I see him :-)

Your brother is a mechanic, yet you know better than he. What, exactly, are
your qualifications?

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:46:41 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:14:55 -0700, SMS wrote:
You have to wonder why, in Europe, the average oil change interval is
10,000 miles while it's 5000 miles in the U.S.

Hmm, most of Europe uses km, not mi - are you sure you're not mixing up
units? I used to do oil changes around 6000mi in England (on my modern
vehicles - I still did my vintage ones at 3000mi) - which isn't too
different from 10,000km.

That's still higher than the US, of course, but only twice as much :-)

Historically, I think the US was reluctant to change tried-and-tested
engine designs, at a time where much of the rest of the world was aiming
for better efficiency and power to weight ratios. That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.


The main reason oil change intervals are longer in Europe is the OEM's
take part in oil "design." Of course longer changes is a marketing
tool also.

http://www.smartmotorist.com/car-acc...fications.html

I have no idea how long European engines last compared to this market.
No idea how much repair work is done there versus here due to
lubrication issues.
All I know (unless I want to argue) is I change oil at 3-4000 miles
and don't have lube related issues.
The cost of doing that is a drop in the bucket of car ownership costs.
All my recent cars got close to 200k miles before rust made them junk.
No lube issues at all.
I don't have a problem with people doing extended changes.
Their call.
But it's really unwise to tell folks to do extended oil changes when
you don't know what the results of that will be for them.
You won't find conclusive scientific testing anywhere that supports
long duration oil changes. It's all marketing.
Anecdotally, for instance Toyota engine sludging, the evidence
supports 3-5000 mile oil changes.

--Vic

That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

So you know better than the engineers who designed the engine?

At risk of harping:

The engineers that designed my engine say to follow the advice of
their oil monitoring system
The oil monitoring system on my car usually tells me to change at
7000-7500 miles.
I'm a typical driver whose driving includes some of the items on the
so-called "severe service" list

In effect, the engineers who designed my engine are telling me that,
for my driving, 7000-7500 miles is appropriate.

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:04:55 -0700 (PDT), ed_h wrote:

That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

So you know better than the engineers who designed the engine?

At risk of harping:

The engineers that designed my engine say to follow the advice of
their oil monitoring system
The oil monitoring system on my car usually tells me to change at
7000-7500 miles.
I'm a typical driver whose driving includes some of the items on the
so-called "severe service" list

In effect, the engineers who designed my engine are telling me that,
for my driving, 7000-7500 miles is appropriate.

....and that has to do with JR's second-guessing, how?

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 10:05:11 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

So you know better than the engineers who designed the engine?

My bad; it was meant as a question... speculation - not a statement of
fact :-) There does seem to be a discrepancy between the recommended
frequency of changes in the US and some other countries though, and yet
surely the formulation of the oil is the same - as are engineering
tolerances, the quality of parts etc.

I suppose the US climate is extremely diverse - often in contrast to
other countries - but I'm not sure that could account for it, as if that
were the sole reason I'd think the auto makers could regionalize their
recommendations.

(My brother in law's a GM mechanic, incidentally, and I know he quotes
3000mi - I'll try and remember to ask him why next time I see him :-)

Your brother is a mechanic, yet you know better than he.

I never said that I knew better, just that I'd ask if he knew what the
'official' reason was (because it might be he's just doing what he's
told, after all).

I change the oil on the Chevy van at 3000mi, as per factory
recommendation. The Toyota usually gets done around 4000mi.
Interestingly, the Ford is 6000mi though (I had it in my head that it was
3000) - that's a 1967 build, so it seems that in the last 40-something
years things have gone backward...

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:04:55 -0700 (PDT), ed_h
wrote:

That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

So you know better than the engineers who designed the engine?

At risk of harping:

The engineers that designed my engine say to follow the advice of
their oil monitoring system
The oil monitoring system on my car usually tells me to change at
7000-7500 miles.
I'm a typical driver whose driving includes some of the items on the
so-called "severe service" list

In effect, the engineers who designed my engine are telling me that,
for my driving, 7000-7500 miles is appropriate.
The manufacturers are, in effect, saying your car will last through
warranty with 7000 to 7500 mile oil change intervals. It will most
likely last as long as the average new car owner owns the vehicle.
They are not saying anything else.

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 23:13:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 10:05:11 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
That gap seems to have
closed these days, but perhaps there's a lot of inertia left in the
system - 3000mi changes used to be the norm in the US, so that's what's
still advised even though modern engines don't need it.

So you know better than the engineers who designed the engine?

My bad; it was meant as a question... speculation - not a statement of
fact :-) There does seem to be a discrepancy between the recommended
frequency of changes in the US and some other countries though, and yet
surely the formulation of the oil is the same - as are engineering
tolerances, the quality of parts etc.

I suppose the US climate is extremely diverse - often in contrast to
other countries - but I'm not sure that could account for it, as if that
were the sole reason I'd think the auto makers could regionalize their
recommendations.

(My brother in law's a GM mechanic, incidentally, and I know he quotes
3000mi - I'll try and remember to ask him why next time I see him :-)

Your brother is a mechanic, yet you know better than he.

I never said that I knew better, just that I'd ask if he knew what the
'official' reason was (because it might be he's just doing what he's
told, after all).

I change the oil on the Chevy van at 3000mi, as per factory
recommendation. The Toyota usually gets done around 4000mi.
Interestingly, the Ford is 6000mi though (I had it in my head that it was
3000) - that's a 1967 build, so it seems that in the last 40-something
years things have gone backward...

cheers

Jules



European oils are different than american oils. There are more specs -
some significantly higher - and BMW, Mercedes, Peugot, etc all specify
exactly what oil is required for their long change intervals. Many of
those oil specifications can not be met by the oils sold in America.

Also - as far as "going backwards" - except for the removal of lead
and the associated purge chemicals and bwetter fuel mixture control,
todays engines are more highly stressed (generally speaking) than the
engines of 1967.

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 23:13:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:


My bad; it was meant as a question... speculation - not a statement of
fact :-) There does seem to be a discrepancy between the recommended
frequency of changes in the US and some other countries though, and yet
surely the formulation of the oil is the same - as are engineering
tolerances, the quality of parts etc.


The "formulation of the oil" is NOT the same.
Emission standards are NOT the same.
And even if you have a VW, BMW or Mercedes here in the U.S.
a European spec (ACEA) oil will probably be recommended.
And most likely synthetic.
It's not like a Chevy or Toyota owner just grabbing the recommended
weight of the cheapest API spec brand.
So surely you're not Shirley.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote
All I know (unless I want to argue) is I change oil at 3-4000 miles
and don't have lube related issues.

Nor do I at 7500 miles or so.



I don't have a problem with people doing extended changes.
Their call.
But it's really unwise to tell folks to do extended oil changes when
you don't know what the results of that will be for them.

Just as it is financial interest the overriding reason the oil change places
slap that 3000 mile sticker on the windshield. They don't care how you
drive, they just want the money. Best to read the manual, assess your
driving conditions and make an informed decision.

As for cost, I drive 25000 miles a year and get maybe 4 changes versus 8 at
3000 miles.

In article ,
Vic Smith wrote:
...snipped...
All I know (unless I want to argue) is I change oil at 3-4000 miles
and don't have lube related issues.
The cost of doing that is a drop in the bucket of car ownership costs.
All my recent cars got close to 200k miles before rust made them junk.
No lube issues at all.

All my cars for the last 20 years or so went over 200,000 miles with
6000 mile oil change intervals. My 78 Chevy pickup with original 350
small block V8 was around 270,000 when I finally got rid of it, and
the engine still ran fine. Current 96 Jeep Cherokee has 166,000.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 23:36:38 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote


I don't have a problem with people doing extended changes.
Their call.
But it's really unwise to tell folks to do extended oil changes when
you don't know what the results of that will be for them.

Just as it is financial interest the overriding reason the oil change places
slap that 3000 mile sticker on the windshield. They don't care how you
drive, they just want the money. Best to read the manual, assess your
driving conditions and make an informed decision.


I was talking about people here flatly saying that it's okay to do
6-8000 mile oil changes without knowing the driving circumstances.
I change my own oil and jot down miles.
When my work schedule had me at the lube places their stickers worked
for me. Nobody is forced to follow their schedule.
Extended oil changes are a marketing tool as much as 3000 mile
stickers.
It's not unusual to see people plunking down +$30 for a car, including
$thousands for a trim package, then crowing about how they only have
to change the oil every 10k miles for a huge savings of what - 30-80
bucks a year?
And some cars are now requiring synthetic.
In some of their cars Toyota requires synthetic and still wants 5000
mile oil changes!


As for cost, I drive 25000 miles a year and get maybe 4 changes versus 8 at
3000 miles.



My car is driven 12 miles round trip a day, 5 days a week for
commuting.
That's 3120 miles a year, max speed is 40, mostly 35, all stop and go.
Average about another 25 per weekend for shopping and visits.
1300 miles a year, 90% max speed is 40, mostly 35, all stop and go.
Once a year I put on about 2500 highway miles on vacation.
At my destination I drive about another 200, stop and go.
This year I'll add a 1000 mile trip for a wedding to that.
That's a bit over 8000 miles this year.

This car is a 1997 Lumina with a 3.1 and 160k miles on it.
I agree about reading the manual.
Mine says that this qualifies for the short trip schedule.

"Most trips are less than 5 to 10 miles (8 to 16 km).
This is particularly important when outside
temperatures are below freezing."

I live north of Chicago and we have freezing winters.

"Every 3,000 Miles (5 000 km): Engine Oil and Filter
Change (or 3 months, whichever occurs first)."

So I'm following the manual pretty close.
I change more like every 4 months.
BTW, for mostly highway driving the manual recommends the 7500 mile
changes you do.
So that's at least 15 years GM has been recommending this.
My next car will probably be a Chevy or Buick with the oil sensor and
no schedule. It'll be interesting to see how that works.

--Viic