The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

On Aug 10, 10:32*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. That's a different story.

New vehicles are for saps. You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.
-----

- gpsman

On Aug 10, 10:32*pm, Metspitzer wrote:

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. *Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

To answer your question...

They'll probably start from the applied rebate, and expect you to
sign.

If you don't have your numbers straight, first, you're probably going
to get raped.

But, "A Good Deal Is A State Of Mind".
-----

- gpsman

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:02:07 -0700 (PDT), gpsman
wrote:

On Aug 10, 10:32*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. That's a different story.

Not true for most trucks. When I bought mine (ten years ago), the difference
between a new truck and a 1-yr old with 20K, was $1K. $6K bought a
six-year-old with 90K, and a rebuilt title.

I'm not even sure it's true for cars anymore, either. With the recession,
used car prices have gone through the roof.

New vehicles are for saps. You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.

So what?

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:32:04 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

The rebate has nothing to do with the sticker price. Look up the truck's
invoice price, if the dealer won't show it to you, and offer $100 over, *AND*
keep the rebate.

On Aug 10, 11:50*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:02:07 -0700 (PDT), gpsman
wrote:

On Aug 10, 10:32 pm, Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. *That's a different story.

Not true for most trucks. *When I bought mine (ten years ago), the difference
between a new truck and a 1-yr old with 20K, was $1K. *$6K bought a
six-year-old with 90K, and a rebuilt title.

That only suggests you didn't know **** about buying vehicles, 10
years ago, and it doesn't look like you've enjoyed much improvement.

I only grew up in the car business and worked in it as an adult for 6
years. I've sold and bought thousands of vehicles, and made great
money, obviously I couldn't know the first thing about vehicle sales.

I'm not even sure it's true for cars anymore, either. *With the recession,
used car prices have gone through the roof.

I know the news tried to sell that story, don't believe everything you
read.

New vehicles are for saps. *You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. *I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.

So what?

So what, what?
-----

- gpsman

On Aug 10, 11:52*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:32:04 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

The rebate has nothing to do with the sticker price. *Look up the truck's
invoice price, if the dealer won't show it to you, and offer $100 over, *AND*
keep the rebate.

There is such a thing as dealer participation wrt to some rebates.
Does that apply to his?

You should shut up about things you know so little about.
-----

- gpsman

On 8/10/2011 9:32 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?


Best in-depth advice I ever got about buying vehicles came from a book
written by a former car salesman, titled Don't Get Taken Every Time.
There's a similar website called Beat the Car Salesman.
http://beatthecarsalesman.com/

Basically a detailed overview of the buying process, including how to
do your research, how to negotiate and close the deal (including how
to know what's a fair price for the vehicle and when to walk away, if
necessary). If you go in with an understanding of the dealer's costs,
as well as market demand for that particular make and model, you have
a good idea of what's a fair price for the vehicle, and can negotiate
accordingly. It also never hurts to ask what else they can do to
motivate you to buy that vehicle from _them_ - maybe throw in free oil
changes, or putting on a hitch for free, or whatever else you and they
may be willing to work out. And this needn't be an ordeal. Keep it
civil and they probably will, too.

I walked from one dealership when shopping for my last car. I went in
knowing dealer cost and fair market value for the car. The salesman
quoted me MSRP. I told him that I was serious about buying, so we'd
have to negotiate the price. He arrogantly informed me they didn't
negotiate. I mildly asked if he was, you know, actually interested in
*selling* cars, and he repeated that they didn't have to negotiate. I
shrugged and drove to the rival dealership where they were happy to
negotiate. When the dealer's counter offer came down to $100 less than
what I was actually prepared to pay, I closed the deal. I saved
thousands, the dealer moved the car, and we were both satisfied.

This works for buying boats and other spendy items, too. My sister and
brother-in-law saved thousands on their latest boat just by politely
explaining that they were seriously interested, but they needed to see
some downward movement on its price. The dealer moved, so they began
asking for free accessories, too. They got almost everything they
asked for without hassle, just by politely asking the dealer what he
could do to close the deal.

In article , Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Woo-hoo! Big discount there...

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no. The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.

Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as more
(or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long term
payment plan). ?

I mean, if you have the means (and inclination) to fork over the full
purchase price for a new vehicle, does that work in your favor when
negotiating the price, or would the dealer (or his financing company)
rather bleed you for $300 - $700 a month for 5 years?

I negotiated to have my purchase go through 100% on my credit card when
I bought my '2000 Chrysler 300m back in the fall of 1999. After I
signed the deal, they came back and said that they can't do it because
they didn't anticipate the Visa transaction cost of putting such a large
purchase through. I balked and said they signed the deal, but
eventually settled and met them half way on the transaction cost. I got
a ****-load of frequent-flyer miles because of that purchase.

On 2011-08-11, Doug Miller wrote:

You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.

Not only that, but it was proven and time tested. New anything is a
crap shoot. A used car in mint shape with all service records is a
sound bet. Have it professionally inspected, though. Get a 3rd
parties expert opinion. A good used car is usually close to
indistructable. I bought a Honda with 120K miles on it. Sold it
with 120K more (250K) hard commute miles on it. Engine still purred.

nb

On 8/11/2011 7:16 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no. The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

Not true. As another poster pointed out, there are times when the
price difference between a late-model used vehicle and the same one
brand new is so minor, it makes no sense to buy used. That's how I
ended up buying my first new car - after shopping around and
discovering the difference between my buying the particular model new
versus two years old with 25K on it was only a few hundred bucks, I
(to my amazement) bought new. Market forces worked in my favor that
time. It may apply in some cases now, too. Low demand for new and high
demand for used may once again make the used vs. new price difference
on certain models negligible - in which case you might as well buy new.

You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.

In the example I gave above, the price difference between the vehicle
new and two years old with approx 25K on it ended up running between
$500-600. So, 25K fewer miles and two more years on the warranty for a
few hundred more? Sold.

If the financing on a new vehicle is more favorable than on a used
vehicle, and the buyer intends to finance, that's another factor to
take into account.

On 8/10/2011 11:02 PM, gpsman wrote:
On Aug 10, 10:32 pm, wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. That's a different story.

New vehicles are for saps. You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.
-----

- gpsman

Thinking you might not have looked at the used vehicle market in some
time. Used to be as you described because you could buy a used vehicle
for a lot less a year later.

Now if a new vehicle is say $25k you will find 1 year old versions of
that vehicle with 20,000 miles are $23,500.

On 8/11/2011 2:29 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Aug 10, 11:50 pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:02:07 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Aug 10, 10:32 pm, wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. That's a different story.

Not true for most trucks. When I bought mine (ten years ago), the difference
between a new truck and a 1-yr old with 20K, was $1K. $6K bought a
six-year-old with 90K, and a rebuilt title.

That only suggests you didn't know **** about buying vehicles, 10
years ago, and it doesn't look like you've enjoyed much improvement.

I only grew up in the car business and worked in it as an adult for 6
years. I've sold and bought thousands of vehicles, and made great
money, obviously I couldn't know the first thing about vehicle sales.

Just because you know what used to be doesn't mean you know how things
are *now*.



I'm not even sure it's true for cars anymore, either. With the recession,
used car prices have gone through the roof.

I know the news tried to sell that story, don't believe everything you
read.

Agree, but you can easily verify it for yourself. I have been looking
for a vehicle and everything I found over the past year was $1000 ~
$1,500 less for a one year old same version with 20,000 or more miles.


Family member and at least 4 good friends recently bought new for this
reason.



New vehicles are for saps. You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.

So what?

So what, what?
-----

- gpsman

On 8/11/2011 8:16 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Woo-hoo! Big discount there...

Considering that it was a high demand vehicle because of fuel economy he
did well. Often sticker is the best you can get in that situation
because if you don't buy it someone is standing behind you who will.

Now if it were some giant stupid fluffed up truck with 16 cup holders
and 4 DVD players 50% off wouldn't have been enough.


Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no. The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

Looked at used car prices recently? That truism you mentioned is now
null and void.


You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no.
The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or
four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

Last time I was looking at cars I was going to take the advice you offer
above. Then I decided against it and bought new.

Sure, you want a fair deal, but sometimes I'm willing to pay more to get
what I want. One financial mistake I make is buying the top of the line.
My Buick is the Limited, by Sonata is also the Limited. They cost more than
the base model and you have more goodies in it. For every dollar the top
model costs over the base models, I'm probably getting a 50¢ value.

I looked at one of the "program" cars the local Buick dealer had. It was
OK, but the first thing I noticed was the burn hole in the seat. My car
never had a lit cigarette in it., never will. Looked at some used cars, but
the price seemed high considering the miles already used up.

I also keep cars for a long time (there have been exceptions) but if I'm
going to drive a car for 15 years, I want and I'm willing to pay for
certain features. I want the color I want, the options I want and I'm
willing to pay for them. I also pay $10 a month for XM radio in one car.
That works out to about 25¢ an hour to listen to non-commercial radio. Yes,
I thought it would be silly to pay for radio that can be had for free, but I
was hooked after a week of the free trial. I spend enough time in the car
that I am willing to pay for it. At least in my primary vehicle, not the
secondary.

If all you want is transportation, buy used, by cheap. If you want some
comfort along the way, you have to be willing to pay a bit more. Repair
costs are also a consideration. In the past five years, aside from normal
maintenance, my total repair costs was $300. Buying cars with 40k miles
already on them, that number would probably be higher.

You pays your money, you make your choice.

On Aug 11, 9:26*am, George wrote to gpsman:

Thinking you might not have looked at the used vehicle market in some
time.

I sold ~40 vehicles in the last 4 years

Now if a new vehicle is say $25k you will find 1 year old versions of
that vehicle with 20,000 miles are $23,500.

Bull****. Show us an example of someone's -asking- price in that
stratosphere.
-----

- gpsman

Home Guy wrote in :

Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as
more (or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long
term payment plan). ?

I mean, if you have the means (and inclination) to fork over the full
purchase price for a new vehicle, does that work in your favor when
negotiating the price, or would the dealer (or his financing company)
rather bleed you for $300 - $700 a month for 5 years?

I negotiated to have my purchase go through 100% on my credit card
when I bought my '2000 Chrysler 300m back in the fall of 1999. After
I signed the deal, they came back and said that they can't do it
because they didn't anticipate the Visa transaction cost of putting
such a large purchase through. I balked and said they signed the
deal, but eventually settled and met them half way on the transaction
cost. I got a ****-load of frequent-flyer miles because of that
purchase.



I bought my last 2 cars on Visa. Both were used but from a new car
dealer. The first time they said max $3000, so I started to walk, they
went to half and then to the full price. The second car they agreed to
Visa right away. You're right about the load of miles, we call then
points up here in Canada. Sure there are Visa transaction costs for them
but it is just part of the dickering. All the things they bring up may
be legit but the final cost to me is all that matters. I think they made
good money on both deals.

A couple of days ago I went with my Dad to look at new cars and we said
it would go on Visa and they both agreed but we didn't get to the nitty
gritty. It seems to be more comonplace now.

gpsman wrote:
On Aug 10, 10:32 pm, wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. That's a different story.

New vehicles are for saps. You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.
-----

- gpsman
Huh?
New and old, there is not much difference in price between two. \
New one has few incentives specially with cash in hand.
Saving ~2K over the life of vehicle ownership was not worth it for me.
I bought new probably last one in my life time. Acura MDX.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
news
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

Talk to your friends. Friends don't let friends buy Fords.

Steve

On 2011-08-11, George wrote:

Agree, but you can easily verify it for yourself. I have been looking
for a vehicle and everything I found over the past year was $1000 ~
$1,500 less for a one year old same version with 20,000 or more miles.

So much depends on location and brand. In SFBA, used Hondas are more
valuble than used Beemers and Mercedes and hold their value MUCH
longer. Where I now live (CO) Hondas are red headed stepchilds.
Jeeps and Fords rule and 4x4 depreciate painfully slow. Buicks, OTOH,
drop like a rock, despite being in the top 5 fave brands. No across
the board rules.

nb

In article , Hell Toupee wrote:
On 8/11/2011 7:16 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no. The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

Not true.

Yes, it is. Do the math. You get killed on depreciation. Let someone *else*
buy the car new, and pay all the depreciation.

As another poster pointed out, there are times when the
price difference between a late-model used vehicle and the same one
brand new is so minor, it makes no sense to buy used.

You both drew the wrong conclusion. The correct conclusion is that if a new
car, and the same thing used, one year old, are basically the same price --
then they are *both* a bad deal.

Total cost of ownership is *always* lower buying a used car -- *if* you use
your head. Buying a one year old used car that's the same price as a new one
is obviously stupid. But that doesn't mean that buying new is smart, only that
buying new is (in that case) less stupid than buying the one year old used
car. Buy three years old, or five years old.

That's how I
ended up buying my first new car - after shopping around and
discovering the difference between my buying the particular model new
versus two years old with 25K on it was only a few hundred bucks, I
(to my amazement) bought new. Market forces worked in my favor that
time.

No, they didn't. Your eagerness to buy a new car worked in the car dealer's
favor that time.

How much could you have saved by getting one four years old, with 50K on it?

Did you even check?

It may apply in some cases now, too. Low demand for new and high
demand for used may once again make the used vs. new price difference
on certain models negligible - in which case you might as well buy new.

It obviously makes more sense to buy new than one year old used at the same
price -- but it makes still more sense, much more, to buy three, four, five
years old used.



You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.

In the example I gave above, the price difference between the vehicle
new and two years old with approx 25K on it ended up running between
$500-600. So, 25K fewer miles and two more years on the warranty for a
few hundred more? Sold.

And I bet you never even looked at the same thing, four years old, with 40 or
50K miles on it. The price difference would have been thousands.

If the financing on a new vehicle is more favorable than on a used
vehicle, and the buyer intends to finance, that's another factor to
take into account.

No, it's not. It's *never* a financially sound decision to buy a new car. It
may be less unsound, in some circumstances, to buy new vs. one year old, but
that does *not* make buying new a smart thing to do.

In article , George wrote:
On 8/10/2011 11:02 PM, gpsman wrote:
On Aug 10, 10:32 pm, wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. That's a different story.

New vehicles are for saps. You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.
-----

- gpsman

Thinking you might not have looked at the used vehicle market in some
time. Used to be as you described because you could buy a used vehicle
for a lot less a year later.

Now if a new vehicle is say $25k you will find 1 year old versions of
that vehicle with 20,000 miles are $23,500.

And how much for a 4 year old version of the same thing?

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:32:04 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

Why? What do you expect from a '11 truck that a used truck from previous
years won't give you? (I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad plan, I'm
just curious what the logic is)

cheers

Jules

On 8/11/2011 7:59 AM, Home Guy wrote:
Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as more
(or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long term
payment plan). ?

How you will pay for the vehicle should be a separate discussion that
takes place after you've negotiated the price of the vehicle. People
tend to assume that dealers prefer cash, but that's not a given. If
they have in-house financing and persuade you to use it, they'll make
more money with your loan. How you plan to pay will a factor they use
when negotiating the purchase price with you (the infamous example is
the standard salesman question, "How much do you want your monthly
payment to be?" You reply: you will decide to buy based on the final,
actual price of the vehicle, not by the monthly payment.)

Be non-committal and tell them you won't decide on how you'll pay for
it until after you settle on the purchase price. If they do finance,
they may specifically make an offer contingent on your financing with
them. Run the numbers and see if it's worth your while. If you were
planning on financing, compare their rates and terms to other lenders.
If you can buy the loan cheaper elsewhere, tell them so. They may be
able to negotiate that, too.

Same for trade-ins - don't bring up your desire to do a trade until
you've negotiated the best price you can get for the vehicle you'll be
buying. Negotiate the trade-in value afterwards. You should have done
your research beforehand to assess the fair trade value, decide what
you'll take for it, and what you'll do if you and the dealer can't
agree on the trade.

To sum up: all of these factors (purchase, payment/financing, and
trade-in) are separate transactions. Mixing them up will confuse
things, which almost always works to the dealer's advantage. So don't
do it.

And remember, you must always be prepared to walk away...and you need
to make that clear. Or they'll steamroll you.

In article , Hell Toupee wrote:
[snip various considerations when negotiating with car dealers]

And remember, you must always be prepared to walk away...and you need
to make that clear. Or they'll steamroll you.

To that, I'd add: and mean it. If you tell the salesman you're going to leave
unless the deal gets better, and it doesn't, and you *don't* leave, you've
lost *all* negotiating leverage.

The last time I walked out on a car salesman, I hadn't gotten a mile down the
road when his boss called me on my cell with a better deal. I wound up buying
the car for about 10% less than *that*.

Hell Toupee wrote:
On 8/11/2011 7:59 AM, Home Guy wrote:
Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the
vehicle (check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the
dealership as more (or less) desirable vs the typical way most
people buy cars (long term payment plan). ?

How you will pay for the vehicle should be a separate discussion that
takes place after you've negotiated the price of the vehicle. People
tend to assume that dealers prefer cash, but that's not a given. If
they have in-house financing and persuade you to use it, they'll make
more money with your loan. How you plan to pay will a factor they use
when negotiating the purchase price with you (the infamous example is
the standard salesman question, "How much do you want your monthly
payment to be?" You reply: you will decide to buy based on the final,
actual price of the vehicle, not by the monthly payment.)

Be non-committal and tell them you won't decide on how you'll pay for
it until after you settle on the purchase price. If they do finance,
they may specifically make an offer contingent on your financing with
them. Run the numbers and see if it's worth your while. If you were
planning on financing, compare their rates and terms to other lenders.
If you can buy the loan cheaper elsewhere, tell them so. They may be
able to negotiate that, too.

Same for trade-ins - don't bring up your desire to do a trade until
you've negotiated the best price you can get for the vehicle you'll be
buying. Negotiate the trade-in value afterwards. You should have done
your research beforehand to assess the fair trade value, decide what
you'll take for it, and what you'll do if you and the dealer can't
agree on the trade.

To sum up: all of these factors (purchase, payment/financing, and
trade-in) are separate transactions. Mixing them up will confuse
things, which almost always works to the dealer's advantage. So don't
do it.

And remember, you must always be prepared to walk away...and you need
to make that clear. Or they'll steamroll you.

The MAIN object of a dealership is to move cars out the door. Simply not
losing money on the deal is sufficient.

All the car companies (Ford, GM, etc.) monitor the finances of their
franchise holders. They require that a dealership meet ALL its operating
expenses (payroll, taxes, utilities, insurance, etc.) from the profit
generated by parts and service. The more cars a dealership "sells" the more
business for their service department.

Profit, if any, from the sale of NEW cars is (usually) devoted entirely to
the owners of the dealership.

The justification for this division is simple: If a dealership depends on
the profit from new car sales to keep the doors open, there will come a time
when they can't sell new cars - the teamsters are on strike, all they can
get are titty-pink Pintos, and so on. But cars need service every day of the
week.

The service department is much more predictable and stable.

On 8/10/2011 8:50 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I'm not even sure it's true for cars anymore, either. With the recession,
used car prices have gone through the roof.

I was quite amused when shopping for a new Toyota to see the dealer
asking more for a one year old model than they were advertising "all
model 2532 in stock at this price" for the current year model. The "all
model 2532 in stock at this price" price was more than $1500 under
factory invoice and more than $3700 under MSRP.

The dealer still makes their money of course since "invoice" bears
little resemblance to what the dealer actually pays the factory for the
vehicle. As far as I could figure (and it was really immaterial) the
dealer had a $400-500 margin after all the kickbacks (factory to dealer
incentive, ad fee, holdback, etc.) were factored in, and hoped to make
the real money selling financing, warranties, fabric guard,
undercoating, glass etching, alarms, and a host of other WAOs (worthless
add ons), including my favorite "the gold package."

Of course the used one year old vehicle was quite a bit less than the
MSRP of the new one, and that's how they find buyers for those used
cars, the people that think they have to pay MSRP for a new one because
the salesman tells them so.

However used Hondas and Toyotas fetch prices beyond logic, while it may
not be the case for Ford and GM vehicles.

No doubt in the case of the original poster, the dealer will try to
portray the $4.5K rebate as the only applicable discount, though some
dealers do distinguish between the MSRP, the dealer discount if any, and
the factory rebate. Of course the "dealer discount" is usually
negotiable as well.

On Aug 11, 9:33*am, George wrote:
On 8/11/2011 2:29 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Aug 10, 11:50 pm, "

With the recession,
used car prices have gone through the roof.

I know the news tried to sell that story, don't believe everything you
read.

Agree, but you can easily verify it for yourself. I have been looking
for a vehicle and everything I found over the past year was *$1000 ~
$1,500 less for a one year old same version with 20,000 or more miles.

Family member and at least 4 good friends recently bought new for this
reason.

I called a buddy of mine still working at a dealer. I didn't get him
but talked to his secretary. She said factory dealers jacked up used
prices to move new cars ( economy stimulus/jobs) but they weren't
paying any more for trade-ins or at the auctions.

So... I'm wrong, but still right (figgers). You can get used car
savings if you don't fall for the ruse.
-----

- gpsman

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:16:24 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Woo-hoo! Big discount there...

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no. The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.
Actually, there IS a financially sound reason for buying a new car
IF you are going to be financing the car AND the dealer is offering
zero percent financing. You can often buy the new car for the same or
less money than a 2 year old used car at bank finance rates.

If you are paying CASH, a new car NEVER makes financial sense.

On 11 Aug 2011 13:01:00 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2011-08-11, Doug Miller wrote:

You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.

Not only that, but it was proven and time tested. New anything is a
crap shoot. A used car in mint shape with all service records is a
sound bet. Have it professionally inspected, though. Get a 3rd
parties expert opinion. A good used car is usually close to
indistructable. I bought a Honda with 120K miles on it. Sold it
with 120K more (250K) hard commute miles on it. Engine still purred.

nb
Bought a mint 6 year old 1988 New Yorker Landau Mark Cross edition
with just under 100,000km on it for $5500. 12 years later I sold it
with 242,000km on it for $1700.
The original purchaser left a little over $35,000 at the dealership
when he drove it off the lot.

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:29:54 -0700 (PDT), gpsman
wrote:

On Aug 10, 11:50*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:02:07 -0700 (PDT), gpsman
wrote:

On Aug 10, 10:32 pm, Metspitzer wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have.

I think you're nuts to buy any new vehicle unless it's like buying
lunch... or you can't get a loan for used. *That's a different story.

Not true for most trucks. *When I bought mine (ten years ago), the difference
between a new truck and a 1-yr old with 20K, was $1K. *$6K bought a
six-year-old with 90K, and a rebuilt title.

That only suggests you didn't know **** about buying vehicles, 10
years ago, and it doesn't look like you've enjoyed much improvement.

How can anyone always be so wrong.

I only grew up in the car business and worked in it as an adult for 6
years. I've sold and bought thousands of vehicles, and made great
money, obviously I couldn't know the first thing about vehicle sales.

Whoopie. Look again today.

I'm not even sure it's true for cars anymore, either. *With the recession,
used car prices have gone through the roof.

I know the news tried to sell that story, don't believe everything you
read.

Try opening your eyes. There is a whole new world out there.

New vehicles are for saps. *You can get a lot more used rig for less
money. *I like Ford but I'd bet they're still installing that POS
clunky signal/flasher mechanism in my '96.

So what?

So what, what?

Who gives a rats ass about your '96 flasher?

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:42:05 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no.
The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or
four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

Last time I was looking at cars I was going to take the advice you offer
above. Then I decided against it and bought new.

Sure, you want a fair deal, but sometimes I'm willing to pay more to get
what I want. One financial mistake I make is buying the top of the line.
My Buick is the Limited, by Sonata is also the Limited. They cost more than
the base model and you have more goodies in it. For every dollar the top
model costs over the base models, I'm probably getting a 50¢ value.

I looked at one of the "program" cars the local Buick dealer had. It was
OK, but the first thing I noticed was the burn hole in the seat. My car
never had a lit cigarette in it., never will. Looked at some used cars, but
the price seemed high considering the miles already used up.

I also keep cars for a long time (there have been exceptions) but if I'm
going to drive a car for 15 years, I want and I'm willing to pay for
certain features. I want the color I want, the options I want and I'm
willing to pay for them. I also pay $10 a month for XM radio in one car.
That works out to about 25¢ an hour to listen to non-commercial radio. Yes,
I thought it would be silly to pay for radio that can be had for free, but I
was hooked after a week of the free trial. I spend enough time in the car
that I am willing to pay for it. At least in my primary vehicle, not the
secondary.

If all you want is transportation, buy used, by cheap. If you want some
comfort along the way, you have to be willing to pay a bit more. Repair
costs are also a consideration. In the past five years, aside from normal
maintenance, my total repair costs was $300. Buying cars with 40k miles
already on them, that number would probably be higher.

You pays your money, you make your choice.

I buy with 60,000 miles on them - 5 or six years old - for $5000 to
$6000. Generally, other than tires, brakes and oil changes I spend
less than $500 a year - closer to 300. And I drive them up to 12 years
before getting rid of them. The last couple years the price goes up

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:33:25 -0700 (PDT), gpsman
wrote:

On Aug 10, 11:52*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:32:04 -0400, Metspitzer wrote:

Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

The rebate has nothing to do with the sticker price. *Look up the truck's
invoice price, if the dealer won't show it to you, and offer $100 over, *AND*
keep the rebate.

There is such a thing as dealer participation wrt to some rebates.
Does that apply to his?

Dumbass, if the dealer is telling him of a rebate and not discounting from the
sticker, it is *NOT* a dealer rebate.

You should shut up about things you know so little about.

How do you continue to live? You really are too dumb to breathe.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:56:07 GMT, Reno wrote:

Home Guy wrote in :

Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as
more (or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long
term payment plan). ?

I mean, if you have the means (and inclination) to fork over the full
purchase price for a new vehicle, does that work in your favor when
negotiating the price, or would the dealer (or his financing company)
rather bleed you for $300 - $700 a month for 5 years?

I negotiated to have my purchase go through 100% on my credit card
when I bought my '2000 Chrysler 300m back in the fall of 1999. After
I signed the deal, they came back and said that they can't do it
because they didn't anticipate the Visa transaction cost of putting
such a large purchase through. I balked and said they signed the
deal, but eventually settled and met them half way on the transaction
cost. I got a ****-load of frequent-flyer miles because of that
purchase.



I bought my last 2 cars on Visa. Both were used but from a new car
dealer. The first time they said max $3000, so I started to walk, they
went to half and then to the full price. The second car they agreed to
Visa right away. You're right about the load of miles, we call then
points up here in Canada. Sure there are Visa transaction costs for them
but it is just part of the dickering. All the things they bring up may
be legit but the final cost to me is all that matters. I think they made
good money on both deals.

A couple of days ago I went with my Dad to look at new cars and we said
it would go on Visa and they both agreed but we didn't get to the nitty
gritty. It seems to be more comonplace now.
Buying a car on Visa is an AWFULL way to finace a car!!!!!!!

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:19:23 -0500, Hell Toupee wrote:

On 8/11/2011 7:59 AM, Home Guy wrote:
Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as more
(or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long term
payment plan). ?

How you will pay for the vehicle should be a separate discussion that
takes place after you've negotiated the price of the vehicle. People
tend to assume that dealers prefer cash, but that's not a given. If
they have in-house financing and persuade you to use it, they'll make
more money with your loan. How you plan to pay will a factor they use
when negotiating the purchase price with you (the infamous example is
the standard salesman question, "How much do you want your monthly
payment to be?" You reply: you will decide to buy based on the final,
actual price of the vehicle, not by the monthly payment.)

Absolutely. Dealers often get ****ed when you refuse to talk about payments,
though.

Be non-committal and tell them you won't decide on how you'll pay for
it until after you settle on the purchase price. If they do finance,
they may specifically make an offer contingent on your financing with
them. Run the numbers and see if it's worth your while. If you were
planning on financing, compare their rates and terms to other lenders.
If you can buy the loan cheaper elsewhere, tell them so. They may be
able to negotiate that, too.

With my truck, they were pushing financing. I'd already lined it up from my
CU, but told them the number they had to beat. They said they might be able
to if I had spotless credit. "Go for it". They did, so I used their
financing. I don't care that they made money, as long as they saved mine.

Same for trade-ins - don't bring up your desire to do a trade until
you've negotiated the best price you can get for the vehicle you'll be
buying. Negotiate the trade-in value afterwards. You should have done
your research beforehand to assess the fair trade value, decide what
you'll take for it, and what you'll do if you and the dealer can't
agree on the trade.

To sum up: all of these factors (purchase, payment/financing, and
trade-in) are separate transactions. Mixing them up will confuse
things, which almost always works to the dealer's advantage. So don't
do it.

Yep.

And remember, you must always be prepared to walk away...and you need
to make that clear. Or they'll steamroll you.

All good advice. In fact, when you start out looking, convince yourself that
you will *not*, under any circumstances, buy that day. Do the research,
decide what you want, and the absolute maximum you're willing to pay, *BEFORE*
talking price. If anyone pushes you out of your comfort zone, walk. If you
get emotional or attached to the vehicle, walk. You're talking serious money.
They really do want it. All. ;-)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:25:19 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:56:07 GMT, Reno wrote:

Home Guy wrote in :

Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as
more (or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long
term payment plan). ?

I mean, if you have the means (and inclination) to fork over the full
purchase price for a new vehicle, does that work in your favor when
negotiating the price, or would the dealer (or his financing company)
rather bleed you for $300 - $700 a month for 5 years?

I negotiated to have my purchase go through 100% on my credit card
when I bought my '2000 Chrysler 300m back in the fall of 1999. After
I signed the deal, they came back and said that they can't do it
because they didn't anticipate the Visa transaction cost of putting
such a large purchase through. I balked and said they signed the
deal, but eventually settled and met them half way on the transaction
cost. I got a ****-load of frequent-flyer miles because of that
purchase.



I bought my last 2 cars on Visa. Both were used but from a new car
dealer. The first time they said max $3000, so I started to walk, they
went to half and then to the full price. The second car they agreed to
Visa right away. You're right about the load of miles, we call then
points up here in Canada. Sure there are Visa transaction costs for them
but it is just part of the dickering. All the things they bring up may
be legit but the final cost to me is all that matters. I think they made
good money on both deals.

A couple of days ago I went with my Dad to look at new cars and we said
it would go on Visa and they both agreed but we didn't get to the nitty
gritty. It seems to be more comonplace now.
Buying a car on Visa is an AWFULL way to finace a car!!!!!!!

Take the cash-back and pay it off before the due date.

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:44:48 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:



The MAIN object of a dealership is to move cars out the door. Simply not
losing money on the deal is sufficient.

All the car companies (Ford, GM, etc.) monitor the finances of their
franchise holders. They require that a dealership meet ALL its operating
expenses (payroll, taxes, utilities, insurance, etc.) from the profit
generated by parts and service. The more cars a dealership "sells" the more
business for their service department.

Not totally true. The AIM of a dealership is to have 100% or better
aboption - meaning they would still cover all expenses, and hopefully
make a profit, without selling a single car.
When I was a service manager, the corporate target was , if I
remember correctly, 85 to 90%. The average dealership at the time was
75 to 80%.

We consistently did 115% and better.
And we sold a fair number of cars. We serviced more than we sold
(retention rate over 100% - almost unheard of in today's automotive
service market)

Profit, if any, from the sale of NEW cars is (usually) devoted entirely to
the owners of the dealership.

The justification for this division is simple: If a dealership depends on
the profit from new car sales to keep the doors open, there will come a time
when they can't sell new cars - the teamsters are on strike, all they can
get are titty-pink Pintos, and so on. But cars need service every day of the
week.

The service department is much more predictable and stable.


And a GOOD service department is a dealer's best car salesman.

wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:56:07 GMT, wrote:

Home wrote in :

Does anyone know (or do any of these buying guides ever say) if when
negotiating for a new vehicle, if an offer to outright buy the vehicle
(check, bank draft, credit-card, etc) is seen by the dealership as
more (or less) desirable vs the typical way most people buy cars (long
term payment plan). ?

I mean, if you have the means (and inclination) to fork over the full
purchase price for a new vehicle, does that work in your favor when
negotiating the price, or would the dealer (or his financing company)
rather bleed you for $300 - $700 a month for 5 years?

I negotiated to have my purchase go through 100% on my credit card
when I bought my '2000 Chrysler 300m back in the fall of 1999. After
I signed the deal, they came back and said that they can't do it
because they didn't anticipate the Visa transaction cost of putting
such a large purchase through. I balked and said they signed the
deal, but eventually settled and met them half way on the transaction
cost. I got a ****-load of frequent-flyer miles because of that
purchase.



I bought my last 2 cars on Visa. Both were used but from a new car
dealer. The first time they said max $3000, so I started to walk, they
went to half and then to the full price. The second car they agreed to
Visa right away. You're right about the load of miles, we call then
points up here in Canada. Sure there are Visa transaction costs for them
but it is just part of the dickering. All the things they bring up may
be legit but the final cost to me is all that matters. I think they made
good money on both deals.

A couple of days ago I went with my Dad to look at new cars and we said
it would go on Visa and they both agreed but we didn't get to the nitty
gritty. It seems to be more comonplace now.
Buying a car on Visa is an AWFULL way to finace a car!!!!!!!
Hi,
How come? We buy most of every thing with plastic. Pay full balance
every month. Collect lots of points. Most of our trips/cruises are paid
by points.

In article , wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:16:24 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote:

In article , Metspitzer
wrote:
The Ford place has a 2011 Ranger XLT I would like to have. The
sticker price is 25K. The last car I bought was a 2011 Honda Civic
last year when they first came out and I was able to get 2k off its
21K list price.

Woo-hoo! Big discount there...

Ford is giving a 4.5k rebate on the new (but a year old 2011) truck
with a sticker price of 25k. Should I expect to try to get the best
offer on the truck and then get the rebate or is the rebate usually
the best offer?

Buying a new car is *never* a financially sound decision, rebate or no. The
only thing that makes financial sense is to buy used, at least three or four
years old. Let someone else pay the depreciation.

You want to talk about discounts from list price? After our second child was
born, in 1991, we bought a 1984 Buick LeSabre for $4200; the original window
sticker was still in the glove box, showing a list price of about $14K. The
car had 54K miles on it when we bought it, and it was still running when we
sold it ten years later at 211K.
Actually, there IS a financially sound reason for buying a new car
IF you are going to be financing the car AND the dealer is offering
zero percent financing. You can often buy the new car for the same or
less money than a 2 year old used car at bank finance rates.

That doesn't mean that buying a new car is a good idea -- only that it might
be a less bad, bad idea, than buying a two year old used car.

If the dealer is offering zero percent financing, you can bet that he's making
his money some other way -- like not cutting you much of a break on the price.

If you are paying CASH, a new car NEVER makes financial sense.

It doesn't matter HOW you're paying. It's still not a sound financial
decision. Let someone *else* pay the depreciation, and buy the car after it's
lost 1/3 to 1/2 of its value.