On 13 Aug 2011 22:02:15 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2011-08-13, wrote:

And half the time they charge the Napa part out at Mopar price to
the customer. Not too bad if they use the premium Napa part - but the
cheap value line crap is a different story.

I've been a mechanic my whole life, too, but I got out of that facet
of it early, moving on to high tech engineering and R&D. I've found
exactly two auto mechanics I actually trust, in my entire life, which
is why I do my own work.

nb
I see you worked in a flat rate shop too??

On 13 Aug 2011 21:50:58 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2011-08-13, wrote:

The flat rate pay system encourages cheating.

Total nonsense. An honest mechanic does not become unscrupulous just
because a flat rate system is in place. I was an honest mechanic and
the customer got full measure of what he paid for, regardless of how
long it took me, whether I was quick or slow. OTOH, scumbags need no
encouragement to be unscrupulous. They'll cheat you, flat rate or no.

I spent half my working life as a mechanic - both flat rate and
straight time - including 10 years as service manager - so I got to
see both sides of the problem.

I can inderstand how certain repair circumstances create problems.
BTDT. OTOH, the training of an unexperienced new mechanic should not
be the responibility of and/or be paid for by the customer. Let more
experienced mechanics do the diagnostics. Besides, who does free
diagnostics, anymore? Sure, flat rate applies to newer warranty work,
and that's what we applied it to.

How many shops survive working on clapped out rusting hulks, unless
it's their specialty and they have the set-up and priceing structure
for it. Even if it is warranty or fairly new car work, sometimes you
get a job that's a loss. That's a std part of business. You can't
start hosing all customers just cuz you lose money on occassion. Oh
wait!! ....apparently, you can! I know it's damn sure become SOP to
try.

nb
Just a minute - nobody said ANYTHING about hosing the customer - if
you hose the customer they don't come back, and you do not maintain
high retention and absorbtion that way.

For "normal" work, on reasonably new cars - the work usually seen at
a dealership, the customer pays by flat rate, plus the appropriate
diagnostic charges and extras that are not covered by flat rate -
while the mechanic is paid straight time. Certain jobs need to be
quoted as "time and material" right from the get-go - and others are
quoted from experience - "that job, on that car, at that age and
condition, is going to run you about 6.5 hours, plus parts" and "When
we get to this point, we'll call you and let you know if it's as bad
as we suspect, better, or worse - and you can decide if you want to
fix it -".

Sometimes you need to give the customer the choice, after you get to
the point you know EXACTLY how bad it is, whether he wants to repair
or replace the major assembly (engine, transmission, etc) or replace
the vehicle. Often those choices cannot be made without getting into
the job.

If a customer asked for a price,I often gave a range - "if we are
lucky,and nothing goes wrong, we can fix it for $1300 - if it goes as
I expect, more likely $1400 - if it's really bad it could be $1750 or
more, and it's my recommendation that we do (this much work) and
reassess at that point. If it is worse than (whatever) I'd recommend
you not spend the money - cut your losses and replace the vehicle
instead" Sometimes they'd say, forget it, and replace the vehicle
right away, without even starting on the job - othertimes they'd say
go ahead and when we knew exactly where we stood, they'd say continue,
or no. And sometimes they'd say fix it, even when my recommendation
was not to. Customer's choice - but NO SURPRISES - for them, or for
me.

If a customer demanded a firm price on this type of job, I generally
quoted the highest I expected it could possibly go - figuring it might
discourage the customer from fixing what really should not be fixed,
or convince him to accept that it is sometimes difficult to know how
bad the vehicle might be and that sometimes a bit of uncertainty is
worth more than a "sure bet"

And I ALWAYS tried to do as little as necessary, cost-wise - to find
out what was required. Several times we "ate" the dissassembly charge
when the customer decided not to go ahead. It was a case of keeping
the customer happy - and keeping the customer.

A lot of little jobs went out without any charge or paperwork. If it
wasn't worth a $25 charge, it wasn't worth processing a work order.

Not being on flat rate, I could ask a mechanic to go out and install a
wiper blade, wiper arm, headlight, bulb, etc for a customer and it
didn't cost the mechanic anything. I could lube a sticky lock and say
"no charge". Made the customer feel good about the dealership, and
saved me money in not having to process all the paperwork (remember -
this was before computerization).

The biggest problem in flat rate shops is when one guy, who is really
good at a particular job, is seen to be getting all the "gravy"
because he always beats flat rate, while the other guy never or seldom
beats flat rate - and never gets those jobs. They'll cry like babies
- untill you give the complainer the "gravy job" and he loses his
shirt. Then the crybaby hides a tool or screws around with something
to make sure the guy who's been "getting all the gravy" can't do his
job as well. I've seen minor wars break out in shops over this. I've
seen mechanics fired in order to restore peace in the shop. Sometimes
several at once.

One mechanic complained the alignment guy got all the gravy - untill
he got a twin I Beam ford front end to align when the "alignment guy"
was off. The regular alignment guy could make flat rate on them MOST
of the time - the complainer lost his shirt in a big way and that shut
him up for a few months.

Another problem in a flat rate shop is nobody wants to help the other
guy learn. In a straight time shop, if John is having a problem with a
job that George is very proficient at, George will go and spend some
time with John, showing him how to do it properly -while in a flat
rate shop George keeps fumbling along because it would "cost George
too much" to show John how to do the job - and it's not in George's
best interest to have another guy in the shop be as good at that job
as George.

Happens all the time

Which is why I was never a proponent of "flat rate" shops

On 8/14/2011 9:08 AM, SMS wrote:
On 8/12/2011 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

With rare exception, dealers cost more than a good independent shop. I
really hate going to a dealer for service and only use them for warranty
work or the occasional deal they may offer on oil changes. Of course,
once they get you in there they want to sell other services.

The upselling is just too annoying and too time consuming to bother with
a dealer oil change special any more. The last time I went to the dealer
for an oil change special they tried to sell me very overpriced tires
(when I asked what the treadwear warranty was they said that tire
manufacturers no longer had them, which is untrue), as well as a list of
additional unneeded services. I finally just left, without the oil change.

I bought the set of filter wrenches that actually properly fit the
filters on my Toyota vehicles and it's made the oil changes much easier,
http://www.tooltopia.com/assenmacher-toy300.aspx. With an OEM filter
and 5 quart jugs of oil on sale, an oil change costs about $15 and takes
30-45 minutes (on my 4Runner I have to remove the skid plates which adds
15 minutes).

if you have a skinny arm, you don't have to remove them plates (at least
on my 90 you don't).