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#1
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we
took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. |
#2
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
In article , " wrote:
OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? No. With tape or paint, it would be. |
#3
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
I'm not sure what the code is. But, it's a good courtesy to
put some red or black paint or tape on the insullation at the ends of the hot white. That signals the next workers that the wire is hot. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. |
#4
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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#5
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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#6
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
In article , " wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2011 00:45:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , " wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? No. With tape or paint, it would be. I have some (un)Sharpies in my electrical toolbox to mark wires. Yeah, same here. Better than tape. |
#8
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked |
#9
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On Mon, 02 May 2011 02:01:27 GMT, (Doug
Miller) wrote: In article , " wrote: On Mon, 02 May 2011 00:45:44 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , " wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? No. With tape or paint, it would be. I have some (un)Sharpies in my electrical toolbox to mark wires. Yeah, same here. Better than tape. First post I have seen from you in a while, Doug. Have you been well? |
#10
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked You haven't seen the runs to my shop tools. ;-) |
#11
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 12:22*am, "
wrote: On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked You haven't seen the runs to my shop tools. *;-) SHUT UP FREAK, WE DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM EITHER. WE WANT TO SEE YOU DEAD! DEAD, LIKE OSAMA BIN LADEN. TGITM |
#12
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD |
#13
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel |
#14
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/2/2011 5:37 AM, RBM wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel I could swear the darn things have been hooked up for years with a 3 wire plug and 10/2 but I do go with a 4 wire hook up now. The last one I installed was in a restaurant where I ran EMT 3 #8's and a #10 ground. The last one I installed in a home was an 8-3 w/gr Romex circuit with the four wire receptacle. I used #8 because it was on the far end of the house, short runs to a dryer get 10-3 w/gr and 4 wire plug and cord. http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ff8ata http://preview.tinyurl.com/3pmzqgc TDD |
#15
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 6:37*am, "RBM" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring *wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. |
#16
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 1, 10:02*pm, (Doug Miller)
wrote: In article , wrote: On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. You can wrap a piece of black tape around it if you like but most electricians don't bother because the wires are in the same jacket. If it's a loose wire pulled into conduit and the installer didn't have a red wire and used a white instead, it's going to be marked with a strip of black or red tape every 6 inches or so to indicate it's another hot leg. You may see green tape on a black or white wire to indicate it's being used as a ground. And if you do, that's a code violation AFAIK. You will see this on larger sized loose wire where the conductors are all black and each is marked with red, white or green tape to indicate their purpose. It all depends on the inspectors in your area. Around here what I wrote will pass inspection but may not in another jurisdiction. TDD It is not a code violation on conductors larger than number six American Wire Gauge. He did say that "You will see this on larger wires..." -- Tom Horne |
#17
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 7:45*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 2, 6:37*am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring *wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne |
#18
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 9:03*am, Tom Horne wrote:
On May 2, 7:45*am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 2, 6:37*am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring *wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? The op mentioned it related to the ac compressors. On pure 240 circuits such as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been and is still accpetable. Same is true for hot water heaters. New wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. And a 4 prong outlet. RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable for dryers and that's just false. For many years dryers were wired using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground together. If you move the dryer outlet that is a change. Any changes to an existing circuit must be borught up to current code. If the original cicuit has 10/2 then a new piece of 10/3 will have to be run. What I'm not so certain about is simply replacing the appliance. SInce it's a plug in appliance replacing it is not a change to the circuit. I would expect that you could continue to use the older 10/2 circuit. |
#19
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 10:11*am, wrote:
On Mon, 2 May 2011 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. * Not really. The code called that 3d wire a "neutral" that was also being used as a ground and the neutral was always required to be an insulated conductor. I agree a lot of inspectors ignored this violation but that did not make it right. Millions of existing installations suggest that at some point the code did not make that distinction. Or it was hugely ignored. Either way there are a LOT of 10/2 dryer circuits. |
#20
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 9:25*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 2, 10:11*am, wrote: On Mon, 2 May 2011 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote: Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. * Not really. The code called that 3d wire a "neutral" that was also being used as a ground and the neutral was always required to be an insulated conductor. I agree a lot of inspectors ignored this violation but that did not make it right. Millions of existing installations suggest that at some point the code did not make that distinction. *Or it was hugely ignored. *Either way there are a LOT of 10/2 dryer circuits. Since the 120 V circuit was usually a timer, you did not have much of a safety issue. If the dryer motor was a 120 V motor, things were a little less safe. The new rules cover all situations. |
#21
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
Millions of existing installations suggest that at some point the code did not make that distinction. *Or it was hugely ignored. *Either way there are a LOT of 10/2 dryer circuits. Since the 120 V circuit was usually a timer, you did not have much of a safety issue. *If the dryer motor was a 120 V motor, things were a little less safe. *The new rules cover all situations.- Hide quoted text - the current used by a timer motor is more then enough to kill. Mark |
#22
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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#23
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
I'm guessing a lot of people will have the old dryer hauled
off, taking the three prong plug with it. They will then buy a new four prong dryer, and find out that the plug doesn't fit the recepticle. That will create a bit of confusion. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. TDD Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. |
#24
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 12:45*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: I'm guessing a lot of people will have the old dryer hauled off, taking the three prong plug with it. They will then buy a new four prong dryer, and find out that the plug doesn't fit the recepticle. That will create a bit of confusion. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "jamesgangnc" wrote in ... in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. TDD Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. Every time I have bought a dryer it did not come with a cord. If the old dryer was broken, usually was, I used the cord from it. Though I tend to buy basic no frills appliances so maybe when you spend more you get a cord :-) |
#25
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On Mon, 2 May 2011 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote: On May 2, 12:45*pm, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I'm guessing a lot of people will have the old dryer hauled off, taking the three prong plug with it. They will then buy a new four prong dryer, and find out that the plug doesn't fit the recepticle. That will create a bit of confusion. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "jamesgangnc" wrote in ... in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. TDD Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. *Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. *The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. *But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. *I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. *Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. Every time I have bought a dryer it did not come with a cord. If the old dryer was broken, usually was, I used the cord from it. Though I tend to buy basic no frills appliances so maybe when you spend more you get a cord :-) I bought a dryer two years ago at Sears. It too did not come with a cord. If you bought a dryer over a set amount, you get the delivery free. I told the sales guy that I had an existing dryer. I would like to have the delivery guys remove the old dryer, I would change the cord, they could then set the new dryer and haul the old one away. Since the delivery guys only subbed for Sears, the sales guy gave me a cord at the store for free. He said that he did not want any problems with the delivery guys having to wait for me to change the cord. I think the cord would have been around 30 bucks. |
#26
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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#27
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
Waiter (French accent that doesn't quite make it): "Would
m'seur like a fork with that?" -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... Every time I have bought a dryer it did not come with a cord. If the old dryer was broken, usually was, I used the cord from it. Though I tend to buy basic no frills appliances so maybe when you spend more you get a cord :-) |
#28
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"French fries with that?" Somehow, that really
strikes me as tacky, "power cord not included". -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message news Dryers usually do not come with a power cord. It is an extra charge item you have to specify and purchase. The installer will have both kinds on the truck if you pay for the install |
#29
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
The last two power supplies I bought for computer builds did not come
with power cords either. It should be criminal that cell phones still use proprietary chargers and cables. On Mon, 2 May 2011 14:15:18 -0400, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: "French fries with that?" Somehow, that really strikes me as tacky, "power cord not included". |
#30
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"jamesgangnc" wrote in message ... On May 2, 9:03 am, Tom Horne wrote: On May 2, 7:45 am, jamesgangnc wrote: On May 2, 6:37 am, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually 10/2 with a three prong plug was acceptable for dyers for a long time. Dryers have a metal strap inside them that connected neutral and ground together. The code now calls for a 4 prong plug and 10/3 with ground now. But I'll bet there are still millions of 3 prong installations out there. I don't know if replacing the dryer meet the code requirement to upgrade to 10/3 since you are not actually touching the circuit any. Existing circuits do not have to be upgraded to meet newer code releases. He was talking about moving the dryer not just replacing it. -- Tom Horne- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't see anything in the thread about moving a dryer? The op mentioned it related to the ac compressors. On pure 240 circuits such as an ac compressor use of 2 conductors with a ground always has been and is still accpetable. Same is true for hot water heaters. New wiring for appliances that use both 240 and 120 such as stoves and electric dryers now requires 3 conductors plus ground. And a 4 prong outlet. RBM stated that 2 condutor with a ground was never accpetable for dryers and that's just false. For many years dryers were wired using 10/2 and the strap inside the dryer connected neutral and ground together. ** NO, RBM stated that 10/2g was never acceptable for electric dryers. 10/2 copper SEU cable would be acceptable, but I have never seen it. You would typically see 8/2 aluminum SEU. 10/2g Romex has NEVER been Nec approved for electric dryers |
#31
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
wrote in message ... On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked It is not legal to use 10-2 for a dryer because there is a neutral load. You need to have an insulated wire for the ground/neutral. The same is true for a range if there is a neutral load. Exactly, with the exception of type "SE" cable, originating from the main service panel |
#32
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
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#33
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On May 2, 6:15*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sun, 1 May 2011 22:12:42 -0400, "RBM" wrote: "The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. *Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. *There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. *Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. *I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked It is not legal to use 10-2 for a dryer because there is a neutral load. You need to have an insulated wire for the ground/neutral. The same is true for a range if there is a neutral load. Exactly, with the exception of type "SE" cable, originating from the main service panel THAT'S RIGHT RIBCAGE, EVEN THE 240 MODEL NEEDS A NEUTRAL BECAUSE THE CLOCK IS 120 VOLTS. THIS TOPIC IS DEJA VU TO ME.... OH OH, I THINK THE MACHINE MAY BE STARTING TO THINK ON ITS OWN AGAIN. THIS IS KIND OF SAD, IF PROTEUS REAWAKENS I MAY HAVE TO LEAVE THESE GROUPS AND RETURN TO ASGARD. ISN'T THIS A TOPIC BEST DISCUSSED IN AN ELECTRICAL GROUP??? OH WELL. PATECUM TGITM |
#34
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/2/2011 2:26 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
It should be criminal that cell phones still use proprietary chargers and cables. Cell phones built the last 2 years have standardize on micro-usb plugs. We have three newer cell phones in our home, they are all micro-usb and can all use the same charger. |
#35
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote:
.... --** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was" acceptable for electric dryers Could be; I don't have a copy... Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did seem worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier installations were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed by (essentially) dishonest inspections passing violations. -- |
#36
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"dpb" wrote in message ... On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote: ... --** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was" acceptable for electric dryers Could be; I don't have a copy... Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did seem worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier installations were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed by (essentially) dishonest inspections passing violations. -- ** What we have here, is a total misconception of the code on the part of some of these posters. The rules for non insulated neutral/ground use on cooking and electric dryers are still applicable. New installations must be 4 wire, but existing installations are perfectly acceptable, if they were done properly to begin with. The rules simply required that the non insulated ground/neutral is part of a type "SE" cable not smaller than 10 gauge, originating from the main service panel. I never suggested that a two wire cable with uninsulated ground wasn't acceptable, only that 10/2g Romex was never acceptable, as it is not type SE, the only acceptable type of cable that can be used for this purpose |
#37
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/2/2011 6:22 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message ... On 5/2/2011 5:24 PM, RBM wrote: ... --** If you look in 250-140 of any newer code book is shows what "was" acceptable for electric dryers Could be; I don't have a copy... Doesn't really matter; the old rules are no longer in effect but did seem worthy to correct the idea that somehow all those earlier installations were not Code-compliant at the time and only were allowed by (essentially) dishonest inspections passing violations. -- ** What we have here, is a total misconception of the code on the part of some of these posters. The rules for non insulated neutral/ground use on cooking and electric dryers are still applicable. New installations must be 4 wire, but existing installations are perfectly acceptable, if they were done properly to begin with. The rules simply required that the non insulated ground/neutral is part of a type "SE" cable not smaller than 10 gauge, originating from the main service panel. I never suggested that a two wire cable with uninsulated ground wasn't acceptable, only that 10/2g Romex was never acceptable, as it is not type SE, the only acceptable type of cable that can be used for this purpose Roger...wasn't clear on the SE rating earlier, thanks for pointing it out....hmmm...looking at earlier posting I see the way I paraphrased wasn't really good in indicating that the run does have to be service cable SE-rated as well as the no branching rule--I was focused on the bare connector part too much from wording earlier. -- |
#38
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
On 5/2/2011 6:27 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 02 May 2011 13:00:03 -0500, wrote: On 5/2/2011 12:20 PM, wrote: ... OK lets look it up together. Start in 250-60(b) where you get the permission to use the "GROUNDED" conductor. (That is the neutral). 250-60(c) further says that grounded conductor "is insulated" unless it is SE cable originating at the service equipment. The practical result of that is that you will be using 10-3 if you use Romex and usually that will turn out being 10-3/wg. The ground wire was either cut off or terminated in the box. Not the pertinent section. As noted, 338-3(b) is the subject paragraph allowing the previous practice that was modified. 338 only applies to SE cable. We already determined SE cable was an exception to the insulated grounded conductor rule. It does not allow 10-2 romex. That's so; see other response. That's the way the uninsulated connector could be used. _IF_ the installation used non-SE rated, that indeed would have been a violation. -- |
#39
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ... On 5/2/2011 5:37 AM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 9:12 PM, RBM wrote: "The Daring wrote in message ... On 5/1/2011 7:40 PM, wrote: OK, here'e the questiond du jour. Was helping a friend and when we took off the circuit breaker panel cover we discovered that for both AC units, whoever did this used white for one of the 240V hots. There is no tape or tag to identify it as a hot. Is this allowed by code? Even if it is, seems bad practice to me. I would have used either red or black. If you see a 10/2 with ground hooked to a two pole breaker on one end and disconnect for an AC condensing unit, water heater or dryer plug on the other end, you pretty much know that the white wire is another 240 volt leg. I agree with you, although, you should NEVER have a 10/2G feeding an electric dryer, unless you can find a piece of 10/2 SEU copper, which I've never seen. Despite the code, it is extremely rare that I ever see the white wire remarked I've seen it for years but as of late the rule change calls for a four wire circuit. Years ago I installed a lot of dryers with 10/2 w/gr but now I use 10/3 w/gr or 8/3 w/gr. The smallest aluminum SEU you can run in a house around here is #2 which I often use for stoves. Moving an old dryer to a new location has us removing the old 3 wire cord and plug for the 4 wire cord and plug. I often run 10/2 w/gr to the disconnect for a 2 ton condensing unit and never bother to mark the white wire because it's in the same jacket as the black and ground. TDD 10/2g is fine for hot water heaters, or A/C units. It has never been acceptable for an electric dryer, because the ground/neutral was required to be insulated. The only exception was using SUE cable, originating from the main service panel I could swear the darn things have been hooked up for years with a 3 wire plug and 10/2 but I do go with a 4 wire hook up now. The last one I installed was in a restaurant where I ran EMT 3 #8's and a #10 ground. The last one I installed in a home was an 8-3 w/gr Romex circuit with the four wire receptacle. I used #8 because it was on the far end of the house, short runs to a dryer get 10-3 w/gr and 4 wire plug and cord. http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ff8ata http://preview.tinyurl.com/3pmzqgc TDD ** The issue isn't the 3 wire plug and cord set. You just can't connect it to 10/2g Romex. To be Nec compliant, it had to be connected to 10/2 service entrance cable, which I've never seen in copper, so it would typically be connected to 8/2 aluminum service entrance cable. |
#40
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Can you use white for one leg of 240V circuit?
Metspitzer wrote:
[snip] It should be criminal that cell phones still use proprietary chargers and cables. The 2 that I bought recently (Motorola and LG), as well as the MiFi device all have micro-USB connectors (and will work with the same chargers, both home and auto). As to the electric dryers, I bought one in 1991 and another in 2007. Neither came with a cord. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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