My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

On 4/22/2011 2:14 AM, harry wrote:
My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!


The sucking sound is money coming from taxpayers to subsidize you.

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

On Apr 22, 1:14*am, harry wrote:
My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
* * Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

How about an electric car, this is UK Harry isnt it? How much is
gasolene? 10-11$ a gallon? At that price wouldnt it be pay off better
then reselling it back. What is your payback price

On Apr 22, 8:59*am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:14*am, harry wrote:





My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
* * Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

How about an electric car, this is UK Harry isnt it? How much is
gasolene? 10-11$ a gallon? At that price wouldnt it be pay off better
then reselling it back. What is your payback price- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not gasolene, it's PETROL.

On Apr 22, 2:11*pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 2:14 AM, harry wrote:





My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
* * *Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

The sucking sound is money coming from taxpayers to subsidize you.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Better to recieve money than to give. Heh Heh!

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.

On Apr 22, 2:44*pm, Mark wrote:
My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

There is a map of numbers.The numbers indicate the Kwh you will
generate per year for every Kw of installed PV array.
In the UK it ranges from 750 to 870. Obviously the jocks and taffs
have it worst. I believe it's 1000 if you live in California, even
more in Colorado.
You need to get the map and see what the number is where you live.
These numbers are average as of course the climate varies.
My number is 850. I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate 3400
Kwh,
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?
(Not in the USA I know)

So, at today's rates it would pay for itself in eight years. But as
the price paid to me is inflationlinked it will be less. Also the
value of the powerI save willbe more. I reckon five years or less.
With ****yousheila in Japan, nuclear power has been set back ten
years. The price of gas and electricity will go through the roof
meantime. And PETROL Heh Heh.

We are reorganising our lives round this panel now. Not much gets
switched on without first checking power being generated.
Seems to be generating 20Kwh/day this last two days. Weather sunny
but slight haze. This will improve as Summer advances.

On Apr 22, 2:59*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:14*am, harry wrote:





My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
* * Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

How about an electric car, this is UK Harry isnt it? How much is
gasolene? 10-11$ a gallon? At that price wouldnt it be pay off better
then reselling it back. What is your payback price- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have thought about it. They are now mass producing electric cars
over here, the gov is subsidising them too. But they still cost
around £30,000 ($50,000).
But I only do 3,000 miles a year so not worth it. My car is a dog
anyway.
I am retired,if I was working & travelling more then maybe I would do
it. However these batteries are very suspect in my book.

On Apr 22, 5:55*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Apr 22, 8:59*am, ransley wrote:





On Apr 22, 1:14*am, harry wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday..

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
* * Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

How about an electric car, this is UK Harry isnt it? How much is
gasolene? 10-11$ a gallon? At that price wouldnt it be pay off better
then reselling it back. What is your payback price- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not gasolene, it's PETROL.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Glad some one here is educated:-)

On Apr 22, 2:59*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:14*am, harry wrote:





My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

I can lie out in the garden now and close my eyes and imagine pound
notes floating down from the sky and being sucked into my roof top
array and transferred to my bank balance,
* * Whatsiss? I see a little cloud drifting over, casting a shadow on
my array/bankbalance.
GO AWAY, GO AWAY!!!

How about an electric car, this is UK Harry isnt it? How much is
gasolene? 10-11$ a gallon? At that price wouldnt it be pay off better
then reselling it back. What is your payback price- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you only have a small array, they don't fit an export electricity
meter. They assume you export half what you generate.
You get a good price for all you generate whether you use it yourself
or not.
The export money is extra on top of that.

On Apr 22, 6:26*pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:







My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive

Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.

if it wasn't for grants/subsidies, they would never pay for themselves as
the payback time is longer than the equipment lifetime.

that said, the payback for my system is about 4.5 years at current
electrical rates; there is a planned increase in rates for later this year,
and we've had one every 2 years or so, so the payback time would get a bit
shorter.

On Apr 22, 7:02*pm, "chaniarts" wrote:
Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday..

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.

if it wasn't for grants/subsidies, they would never pay for themselves as
the payback time is longer than the equipment lifetime.

that said, the payback for my system is about 4.5 years at current
electrical rates; there is a planned increase in rates for later this year,
and we've had one every 2 years or so, so the payback time would get a bit
shorter.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are solar panels here in the UK forty years old. (Running at
about 60% of previous capacity).
There will be huge hikes in energy costs coming up.

On 4/21/2011 11:14 PM harry spake thus:

[I'm curious; why do you consider this to be off-topic?]

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

Let me be the first to say "mazeltov!".

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

Ever heard of these newfangled things called "batteries"?

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. But I am good at this.

Must have been mustachioed, sombrero'd Mexicans, eh, Harry?


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate *3400
Kwh,
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.


if i did my math right that is £0.48 per Kwh or about $US 0.77 per
Kwh.

Is that what you pay for electricity over there?...

or is that what they pay you for the electricity you generate?

That's about 5x what I pay. (in the US)

If that is true, then yes a PV solar panel may be a good idea.

Mark

Mark wrote:
I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate 3400
Kwh,
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.


they don't generate this peak all the time. they generate power on an almost
perfect bell curve, because of both the tilt (or lack of it) and the height
of the sun in the sky. you generate the most when it's between 1100 and
1300, tailing off to the ends of the solar day where it generates 0.

you also generate less during winter months than summer (in the N
hemisphere), again because of the tilt and shorter days).

other factors:
- the temperature of the panels (they generate less when it's hotter)
- passing clouds/rain
- dust deposits on the panels (i can get a 3-4% increase just by washing
them)

on a good day currently, my 7.7kw installation generates about 52 kwh/day.
in the last 10 months since turnon date, i've generated 1.2mwh, but i live
in a very sunny part of the world.

if i did my math right that is £0.48 per Kwh or about $US 0.77 per
Kwh.

Is that what you pay for electricity over there?...

or is that what they pay you for the electricity you generate?

That's about 5x what I pay. (in the US)

If that is true, then yes a PV solar panel may be a good idea.

Mark

On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...

Frank wrote in news:iosdor$und$1@dont-
email.me:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.


meanwhile,the solar cells last only 20 years....,and there's no accounting
for worn out or bad batteries(that last much LESS than 20 years),or
failures in the DC-AC inverter.

Plus an added fire hazard.
Oh,and maintenance on the batteries and cleaning of solar panels.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Jim Yanik wrote:
Frank wrote in
news:iosdor$und$1@dont- email.me:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of
yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.


meanwhile,the solar cells last only 20 years....,and there's no
accounting for worn out or bad batteries(that last much LESS than 20
years),or failures in the DC-AC inverter.

Plus an added fire hazard.
Oh,and maintenance on the batteries and cleaning of solar panels.

grid tie installations don't have batteries.

solar cells are warranteed for 25 years, inverters for 10, typically

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:02:51 -0700, "chaniarts" wrote:

Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.

if it wasn't for grants/subsidies, they would never pay for themselves as
the payback time is longer than the equipment lifetime.

Particularly in an area with the possibility of hail.

that said, the payback for my system is about 4.5 years at current
electrical rates; there is a planned increase in rates for later this year,
and we've had one every 2 years or so, so the payback time would get a bit
shorter.

As long as they don't drop the subsidies, perhaps. You're still relying on
the grid as a "battery". If everyone did this the grid would fail. IOW, it's
a losing proposition.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:43:58 -0700, "chaniarts" wrote:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Frank wrote in
news:iosdor$und$1@dont- email.me:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of
yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.


meanwhile,the solar cells last only 20 years....,and there's no
accounting for worn out or bad batteries(that last much LESS than 20
years),or failures in the DC-AC inverter.

Plus an added fire hazard.
Oh,and maintenance on the batteries and cleaning of solar panels.

grid tie installations don't have batteries.

The grid is their battery.

solar cells are warranteed for 25 years, inverters for 10, typically

Hopefully.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:49:07 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:



I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate *3400
Kwh,
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.


if i did my math right that is £0.48 per Kwh or about $US 0.77 per
Kwh.

Is that what you pay for electricity over there?...

or is that what they pay you for the electricity you generate?

That's about 5x what I pay. (in the US)

Almost 10x what I pay. It's been pretty unreliable, but it's cheap. :-)

If that is true, then yes a PV solar panel may be a good idea.

On Apr 22, 7:49*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/21/2011 11:14 PM harry spake thus:

[I'm curious; why do you consider this to be off-topic?]

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

Let me be the first to say "mazeltov!".

Maybe we will break away and form our own state, free of our lying
b@@@@d politicians.

We would have to sit in the dark at night of course.

Ever heard of these newfangled things called "batteries"?

They were a bunch of ******s who came to fit it. Clueless. I had to
give them a hard time. *But I am good at this.

Must have been mustachioed, sombrero'd Mexicans, eh, Harry?

--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

* *yo
* *wassup
* *nuttin
* *wan2 hang
* *k
* *where
* *here
* *k
* *l8tr
* *by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

They were probably worse than Mexicans.

On Apr 22, 9:49*pm, Mark wrote:
I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate *3400

Kwh,
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.

if i did my math right that is £0.48 per Kwh or about *$US 0.77 per
Kwh.

Is that what you pay for electricity over there?...

or is that what they pay you for the electricity you generate?

That's about 5x what I pay. *(in the US)

If that is true, then yes a PV solar panel may be a good idea.

Mark

The solar panel electricity price is enhanced. Our normal price for
electricity is around a quarter of that. Other electricity users will
eventually have to pay more to cover it.
The gov.over here is commited to X amount of "green" electricity. They
are bust as is your lot. They see this as a way round the problem.

On Apr 22, 10:02*pm, "chaniarts" wrote:
Mark wrote:
I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate 3400
Kwh,
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.

they don't generate this peak all the time. they generate power on an almost
perfect bell curve, because of both the tilt (or lack of it) and the height
of the sun in the sky. you generate the most when it's between 1100 and
1300, tailing off to the ends of the solar day where it generates 0.

you also generate less during winter months than summer (in the N
hemisphere), again because of the tilt and shorter days).

other factors:
- the temperature of the panels (they generate less when it's hotter)
- passing clouds/rain
- dust deposits on the panels (i can get a 3-4% increase just by washing
them)

on a good day currently, my 7.7kw installation generates about 52 kwh/day..
in the last 10 months since turnon date, i've generated 1.2mwh, but i live
in a very sunny part of the world.



if i did my math right that is £0.48 per Kwh or about *$US 0.77 per
Kwh.

Is that what you pay for electricity over there?...

or is that what they pay you for the electricity you generate?

That's about 5x what I pay. *(in the US)

If that is true, then yes a PV solar panel may be a good idea.

Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not as simple as that. Efficiency varies with light intensity, angle
of incidence of the light and also with the operating/ambient
temperature. .
But the number I mentioned takes all this into account.
There can be shading issues also

On Apr 23, 12:06*am, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:





On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago..
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you wait until you've runout of oil before developing the new
technology?
Is that it?
It's a chicken and egg sitution.

On Apr 23, 12:38*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
Frank wrote innews:iosdor$und$1@dont-
email.me:





On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday..

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago..
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.

meanwhile,the solar cells last only 20 years....,and there's no accounting
for worn out or bad batteries(that last much LESS than 20 years),or
failures in the DC-AC inverter.

Plus an added fire hazard.
Oh,and maintenance on the batteries and cleaning of solar panels.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are no batteries. There are forty year old panels still
running over here.

On Apr 23, 1:10*am, "
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:02:51 -0700, "chaniarts" wrote:
Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.

if it wasn't for grants/subsidies, they would never pay for themselves as
the payback time is longer than the equipment lifetime.

Particularly in an area with the possibility of hail.

that said, the payback for my system is about 4.5 years at current
electrical rates; there is a planned increase in rates for later this year,
and we've had one every 2 years or so, so the payback time would get a bit
shorter.

As long as they don't drop the subsidies, perhaps. *You're still relying on
the grid as a "battery". *If everyone did this the grid would fail. *IOW, it's
a losing proposition.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Small generating site distributed round the grid help matters by
reducing grid loading.
The grid tie inverters are required to have an "anti-islanding"
feature..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-islanding

On 4/23/2011 1:51 AM, harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 12:06 am, wrote:
On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:





On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you wait until you've runout of oil before developing the new
technology?
Is that it?
It's a chicken and egg sitution.

Pay attention when you read, harry. I have no heartburn with seed money
for the R&D phase. I do have heartburn with them spending MY money to
subsidize rich yuppie early adapters installing the just-developed new
technology, thereby supporting startup companies that assume those
taxpayer subsidies as part of their business model for survival. Once
the subsidies go away, most of those startup companies will go belly-up
overnight. Saw it before with liquid-based roof solar panels. Most of
the early installs of those have long since been ripped out. The only
thing I would support subsidizing for end users is set-and-forget simple
technology like insulation and storm windows, and I would only support
that for lower-income folk that would never be able to afford it
otherwise. Cutting $50 or $100 a month off their fuel bills has
immediate and long-term benefits to society, since they now may need
less financial help in other areas, and every slight reduction in fuel
burned results in less pollution and less imported oil. But to help some
rich yuppie who could afford PV panels anyway if they really wanted them
that bad? Not so much. The market pressures to bring unit cost down only
work if the cost to the end user is close to the actual cost of the
product. Until the street price is low enough for Everyman, it will be a
rich person niche product. IMHO, PV for residential use will only become
a significant source of power when the actual (unsubsidized) cost per
Kwh, taken over the entire service life of the system, is competitive
with mains power from the grid. At this point, I think end users can get
a lot more bang for the buck with other lower-tech measures like
insulation and light-pipe skylights (see Solatube), and learned
lifestyle changes like not lighting the whole house like an O.R. 18
hours a day.

--
aem sends...

On Apr 22, 9:57*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Apr 22, 6:26*pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive

I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.

The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.

I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.

That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?

On Apr 23, 12:01*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/23/2011 1:51 AM, harry wrote:





On Apr 23, 12:06 am, *wrote:
On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup..

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you wait until you've runout of oil before developing the new
technology?
Is that it?
It's a chicken and egg sitution.

Pay attention when you read, harry. I have no heartburn with seed money
for the R&D phase. I do have heartburn with them spending MY money to
subsidize rich yuppie early adapters installing the just-developed new
technology, thereby supporting startup companies that assume those
taxpayer subsidies as part of their business model for survival. Once
the subsidies go away, most of those startup companies will go belly-up
overnight. Saw it before with liquid-based roof solar panels. Most of
the early installs of those have long since been ripped out. The only
thing I would support subsidizing for end users is set-and-forget simple
technology like insulation and storm windows, and I would only support
that for lower-income folk that would never be able to afford it
otherwise. Cutting $50 or $100 a month off their fuel bills has
immediate and long-term benefits to society, since they now may need
less financial help in other areas, and every slight reduction in fuel
burned results in less pollution and less imported oil. But to help some
rich yuppie who could afford PV panels anyway if they really wanted them
that bad? Not so much. The market pressures to bring unit cost down only
work if the cost to the end user is close to the actual cost of the
product. Until the street price is low enough for Everyman, it will be a
rich person niche product. IMHO, PV for residential use will only become
a significant source of power when the actual (unsubsidized) cost per
Kwh, taken over the entire service life of the system, is competitive
with mains power from the grid. At this point, I think end users can get
a lot more bang for the buck with other lower-tech measures like
insulation and light-pipe skylights (see Solatube), and learned
lifestyle changes like not lighting the whole house like an O.R. 18
hours a day.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
The price will fall in a few years. Like flat screen TVs. But the
need is now and urgent.
The prices will be competitive with prices on the grid in just a few
years. There has to be an element of forsight in something as
important as energy supplies.
You can't just leave things to the "market". We've seen where that
leads lately.
These selfish b***s are not interested in anyone but themselves.
Naked capitalism doesn't work, especially the American brand.

The government is there to govern for everybody not just for the
benifit of the rich. the USA has a welfare system for the wealthy.
They rob the poor to pay the rich

On Apr 23, 12:01*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/23/2011 1:51 AM, harry wrote:





On Apr 23, 12:06 am, *wrote:
On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup..

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you wait until you've runout of oil before developing the new
technology?
Is that it?
It's a chicken and egg sitution.

Pay attention when you read, harry. I have no heartburn with seed money
for the R&D phase. I do have heartburn with them spending MY money to
subsidize rich yuppie early adapters installing the just-developed new
technology, thereby supporting startup companies that assume those
taxpayer subsidies as part of their business model for survival. Once
the subsidies go away, most of those startup companies will go belly-up
overnight. Saw it before with liquid-based roof solar panels. Most of
the early installs of those have long since been ripped out. The only
thing I would support subsidizing for end users is set-and-forget simple
technology like insulation and storm windows, and I would only support
that for lower-income folk that would never be able to afford it
otherwise. Cutting $50 or $100 a month off their fuel bills has
immediate and long-term benefits to society, since they now may need
less financial help in other areas, and every slight reduction in fuel
burned results in less pollution and less imported oil. But to help some
rich yuppie who could afford PV panels anyway if they really wanted them
that bad? Not so much. The market pressures to bring unit cost down only
work if the cost to the end user is close to the actual cost of the
product. Until the street price is low enough for Everyman, it will be a
rich person niche product. IMHO, PV for residential use will only become
a significant source of power when the actual (unsubsidized) cost per
Kwh, taken over the entire service life of the system, is competitive
with mains power from the grid. At this point, I think end users can get
a lot more bang for the buck with other lower-tech measures like
insulation and light-pipe skylights (see Solatube), and learned
lifestyle changes like not lighting the whole house like an O.R. 18
hours a day.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW talking of R&D, the US gov spends billions in supporting R&D in
weapons technology. Supporting of course the rich.
They could spend it on national infrastructure so creating work but
they don't.

On Apr 23, 1:22*pm, "
wrote:
On Apr 22, 9:57*pm, wrote:





On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 22, 6:26*pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter.. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive

I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.

The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.

I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.

That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

On Apr 23, 7:01*am, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/23/2011 1:51 AM, harry wrote:





On Apr 23, 12:06 am, *wrote:
On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup..

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you wait until you've runout of oil before developing the new
technology?
Is that it?
It's a chicken and egg sitution.

Pay attention when you read, harry. I have no heartburn with seed money
for the R&D phase. I do have heartburn with them spending MY money to
subsidize rich yuppie early adapters installing the just-developed new
technology, thereby supporting startup companies that assume those
taxpayer subsidies as part of their business model for survival. Once
the subsidies go away, most of those startup companies will go belly-up
overnight. Saw it before with liquid-based roof solar panels. Most of
the early installs of those have long since been ripped out. The only
thing I would support subsidizing for end users is set-and-forget simple
technology like insulation and storm windows, and I would only support
that for lower-income folk that would never be able to afford it
otherwise. Cutting $50 or $100 a month off their fuel bills has
immediate and long-term benefits to society, since they now may need
less financial help in other areas, and every slight reduction in fuel
burned results in less pollution and less imported oil. But to help some
rich yuppie who could afford PV panels anyway if they really wanted them
that bad? Not so much. The market pressures to bring unit cost down only
work if the cost to the end user is close to the actual cost of the
product. Until the street price is low enough for Everyman, it will be a
rich person niche product. IMHO, PV for residential use will only become
a significant source of power when the actual (unsubsidized) cost per
Kwh, taken over the entire service life of the system, is competitive
with mains power from the grid. At this point, I think end users can get
a lot more bang for the buck with other lower-tech measures like
insulation and light-pipe skylights (see Solatube), and learned
lifestyle changes like not lighting the whole house like an O.R. 18
hours a day.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with you on all the above. Here in NJ, the money to subsidize
solar comes from a tax levied on electric bills. So, the tree
huggers
have what amounts to a tax that hits the poor almost as much as
it hits the middle class or even upper income households. Then
to top it off, they set up the program so that it's one of the
stupidest
I've ever seen. They take the money and hand it out quarterly.
You have to fill out a COMPLETE application, which includes
loads of data on the solar installation that only the contractor
actually doing the work can supply, together with a signed
contract, etc. Then, you are supposed to get a grant of about
$10K or so for your home system.

The problem is that they don;t have enough money in the fund.
So what happens? The people who happen to get their
applications in first, get their full amount. When it runs out
the rest get zippo. And even worse, they don't stay in the
process for the next quarter, they just lose out and get
zippo. Great way to run a program.....

Another way to look at what you are saying is to ask the
question: Would we get better results by taking
the money now being used on installation subsidies and
using it instead for
more research to find a cost effective technology
breakthrough? And another good question to ask is
why have all kinds of other technologies, even more
complex, eg flat screen TVs, make it to market without
govt subsidizing people to buy them?

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

Once
the subsidies go away, most of those startup companies will go belly-up
overnight.

I live in startup company heaven. There are boatloads of investment
capital around here, just waiting to be squandered. I've seen the
startup model over and over again. As soon as OPM (other people's money)
gets involved, the extravagance and waste are boundless. I've seen
50,000 sq. ft. buildings with $50,000,000 worth of equipment in them to
accommodate 6 egocentric engineers, and nary a customer on the horizon.

Real entrepreneurs start their operations in dilapidated barns with
equipment bought at the thrift store, but those guys are all but extinct.

On Apr 23, 9:52*am, wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 05:22:41 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.

That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?

I haven't tried it but I was wondering if you had a small battery
excited inverter on the "generator" side of a transfer switch if it
would trick your grid tie solar inverter into turning on.

Don't know, but if would first be good to know what the reason
is that the normal PV arrays aren't allowed to power the house
when the grid is down. I suspect it's to avoid issues like a
cloud comes by and suddenly without the grid the house
would start to brown out, possibly causing damage to
motors, etc. I guess it could just cut off the power at that
point, but then you'd have intermittent power which would
be a PIA. It would be frustrating to spend $35K on a system
and not have it able to supply power if a storm knocks
down power lines.

On Apr 23, 8:32*am, harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 12:01*pm, aemeijers wrote:



On 4/23/2011 1:51 AM, harry wrote:

On Apr 23, 12:06 am, *wrote:
On 4/22/2011 1:26 PM, Frank wrote:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.

And they wonder why pretty much all the governmental units in US are
broke. 'Free' money from gummint ain't free- they stole it from everyone
else.

Sorry, I'm as much of a tree-hugger and techno-geek as the next guy (and
the two are NOT mutually exclusive), but once something gets past the
proof-of-concept R&D stage, the public seed money should stop. It either
meets cost-benefits on its own, or it doesn't (at least not until
competing tech goes up in price.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you wait until you've runout of oil before developing the new
technology?
Is that it?
It's a chicken and egg sitution.

Pay attention when you read, harry. I have no heartburn with seed money
for the R&D phase. I do have heartburn with them spending MY money to
subsidize rich yuppie early adapters installing the just-developed new
technology, thereby supporting startup companies that assume those
taxpayer subsidies as part of their business model for survival. Once
the subsidies go away, most of those startup companies will go belly-up
overnight. Saw it before with liquid-based roof solar panels. Most of
the early installs of those have long since been ripped out. The only
thing I would support subsidizing for end users is set-and-forget simple
technology like insulation and storm windows, and I would only support
that for lower-income folk that would never be able to afford it
otherwise. Cutting $50 or $100 a month off their fuel bills has
immediate and long-term benefits to society, since they now may need
less financial help in other areas, and every slight reduction in fuel
burned results in less pollution and less imported oil. But to help some
rich yuppie who could afford PV panels anyway if they really wanted them
that bad? Not so much. The market pressures to bring unit cost down only
work if the cost to the end user is close to the actual cost of the
product. Until the street price is low enough for Everyman, it will be a
rich person niche product. IMHO, PV for residential use will only become
a significant source of power when the actual (unsubsidized) cost per
Kwh, taken over the entire service life of the system, is competitive
with mains power from the grid. At this point, I think end users can get
a lot more bang for the buck with other lower-tech measures like
insulation and light-pipe skylights (see Solatube), and learned
lifestyle changes like not lighting the whole house like an O.R. 18
hours a day.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The price will fall in a few years. Like flat screen TVs. *But the
need is now and urgent.
The prices will be competitive with prices on the grid in just a few
years.

Citation please....

*There has to be an element of forsight in something as
important as energy supplies.
You can't just leave things to the "market". We've seen where that
leads lately.

The govt has been applying foresight to the energy situation
since at least the days of Jimmy Carter. He poured a billion
dollars into a shale oil project that didn't produce one gallon
on oil. Yet, so far, we have very little to show for all the
money spent.

Funny if govt foresight is required, how is it that we have all
kinds of other high tech solutions coming out of free markets?
Did the govt invent the cell phone? or develop those flat
screen TVs?

Oh, but the free market did finally develop oil from shale,
when it became economically viable.


These selfish b***s are not interested in anyone but themselves.
Naked capitalism doesn't work, especially the American brand.

Try taking a course in basic economics. Free markets work
precisely because each participant is trying to make as much
money as they can. They maximize profits. And with free
markets, those profits attract MORE participants and
together they compete and drive the price down to the point
where they all are making a reasonable profit. It seems to
have worked everyplace in the world it has been tried.
By comparison, the countries with the most govt involvement
have had less innovation and less economic growth.



The government is there to govern for everybody not just for the
benifit of the rich. the USA has a welfare system for the wealthy.
They rob the poor to pay the rich- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Where do we apply for this welfate system for the rich? And
if that is true, why is it that those with the top 1% of all income
in the USA pay 40% of all taxes?

In article
,
" wrote:

On Apr 23, 9:52*am, wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 05:22:41 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.

That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?

I haven't tried it but I was wondering if you had a small battery
excited inverter on the "generator" side of a transfer switch if it
would trick your grid tie solar inverter into turning on.

Don't know, but if would first be good to know what the reason
is that the normal PV arrays aren't allowed to power the house
when the grid is down.

Anit-islanding, as has been mentioned. It is a bit ironic that you could
spend $30,000 for your own power system and still be dependent on the
grid, but that's the standard model.

I suspect it's to avoid issues like a
cloud comes by and suddenly without the grid the house
would start to brown out, possibly causing damage to
motors, etc. I guess it could just cut off the power at that
point, but then you'd have intermittent power which would
be a PIA. It would be frustrating to spend $35K on a system
and not have it able to supply power if a storm knocks
down power lines.

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 09:55:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 05:38:24 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 23, 1:22*pm, "
wrote:
On Apr 22, 9:57*pm, wrote:





On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 22, 6:26*pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive

I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.

The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.

I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.

That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

That is called a transfer switch. Anyone with any kind of site
generated power should have one if they plan on running when the grid
is down. It would be trivial to add it to a PV system.

Hmm, the "transfer switch" in this case would only be a single-pole switch.
Perhaps a single point of failure (switch or its actuator) isn't safe enough?