On Apr 24, 4:38*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:55:25 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Also picked up this big IBM dc motor at a hamfest. Going to try making
a windmill of some sort.

Greg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You would be best to use automobile technolgy. Most of the the
problems are solved if you do.

The unsolved problem with automotive alternators is a horrible
efficiency ratio. With a petrol engine providing massive amounts of
power for a relatively small alternator draw, they do not care much
about how efficient it is. The automotive A/C units have the same
issue.

All True. But you can pick the bits out of the car (alternator,
battery and control system) and away you go. More efficient than
anything you could make yourself.

On Apr 24, 5:00*pm, George wrote:
On 4/24/2011 11:38 AM, wrote:





On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:55:25 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Also picked up this big IBM dc motor at a hamfest. Going to try making
a windmill of some sort.

Greg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You would be best to use automobile technolgy. Most of the the
problems are solved if you do.

The unsolved problem with automotive alternators is a horrible
efficiency ratio. With a petrol engine providing massive amounts of
power for a relatively small alternator draw, they do not care much
about how efficient it is. The automotive A/C units have the same
issue.

What is a typical automotive alternator? 80 Amps. Getting *960 watts
from a rotating device the size of a small grapefruit is pretty efficient..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is nothing to do with efficiency.

On Apr 24, 5:04*pm, "
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Apr 24, 2:17*am, "
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:43:28 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 5:08*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:55:39 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:10*am, "
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:02:51 -0700, "chaniarts" wrote:
Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.

if it wasn't for grants/subsidies, they would never pay for themselves as
the payback time is longer than the equipment lifetime.

Particularly in an area with the possibility of hail.

that said, the payback for my system is about 4.5 years at current
electrical rates; there is a planned increase in rates for later this year,
and we've had one every 2 years or so, so the payback time would get a bit
shorter.

As long as they don't drop the subsidies, perhaps. *You're still relying on
the grid as a "battery". *If everyone did this the grid would fail. *IOW, it's
a losing proposition.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Small generating site distributed round the grid help matters by
reducing grid loading.

No, it *hurts* by reducing control. *If even a large fraction of the people
did it, the net cash flow would be out; not good for the infrastructure,
either.

The grid tie inverters are required to have an "anti-islanding"
feature..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-islanding

Dumbass.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Whats the differnence beween 3Kw into the system and 3Kw out? Both
pose exactly the same control problems.

You really are clueless. *The sun is pretty well synchronized across a wide
area. *Loads aren't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So? *That means the input can be predicted so simplifying the problem.

Good God, you're clueless. Not only is the load varying but so is the
generation; much of it synchronized, in unpredictable areas, rather than at
random (which is actually *more* predictable).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It makes exactly no difference. The control problems are the same. PV
panels are quite predictable.

It would be different if we were PV generating on a massive scale. But
my 4Kw and thousands more round the country are neither here nor
there.
But if I had a foundry with Mw electric furnaces for example, that too
would be a massive control problem. But clearlynot insurmountable as
they exist

On Apr 24, 5:26*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/24/2011 10:36 AM, Han wrote:





*wrote in news:de2db6ae-
:

As an example, in the recent housing bubble,
everyone got the idea that housing was a great investment, that
it could only go up. *The government helped, by subsidizing real
estate with huge tax breaks, requiring lenders to make loans
in low income areas regardless of credit worthiness and keeping
interest rates very low.

In response to that, demand for housing increased, causing prices
to rise in response. *Exactly how markets behave following the
most basic rules of economics.

Exactly, on the surface. *Dig a little deeper and greed, stupidity and
abdication of responsibility played much bigger roles than "markets". *But
I dont think we'll ever agree amongst all of us who bears the most
responsibility. *Suffice it to say that the housing bubble wasn't uniform
over the US, and certainly not over all developed countries. *Therefore,
either the markets were differentially manipulated, or some countries had
"better" regulation than others.

Don't forget the clueless or greedy individuals who signed up for loans
they knew damn well they could not afford. I blame them as much as I
blame the hucksters that invited them into the tent. I could have gotten
paper for twice as much house as I bought, but saw no point in it. And
even with the housing crash, I think I could still sell this place for
as much as I paid for it. No profit, especially once you subtract out
repairs, interest, taxes, etc, but I am far from upside down. 'Blue
collar' houses didn't crash near as bad as McMansions.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They were all conned. The biggest con of all is the "American Dream".
The fact that there were so many conned points to the efficiency of
the lies and propaganda Americans are subjected to.

You need to ask yourselves, did the banks know the facts that you set
out above?

Answer, yes, obviously.

So tell me, what you suppose their motive was?

Greed? Stupidity? Incompetance? Or a desire to destroy America?
Or is it a Russion/Chinese plot?

Jim Yanik wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:43:58 -0700, "chaniarts"
wrote:

Jim Yanik wrote:
Frank wrote in
news:iosdor$und$1@dont- email.me:

On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of
yesterday.

It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see
the cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am
supplying several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net
energy exporter. (And cash importer)



how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state
grant and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few
years ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30
years to recoup.


meanwhile,the solar cells last only 20 years....,and there's no
accounting for worn out or bad batteries(that last much LESS than
20 years),or failures in the DC-AC inverter.

Plus an added fire hazard.
Oh,and maintenance on the batteries and cleaning of solar panels.

grid tie installations don't have batteries.

The grid is their battery.

solar cells are warranteed for 25 years, inverters for 10, typically

Hopefully.


WHAT sort of "warranty"?
Do they guarantee a minimum power output for a given solar input for
up to 25 years? Or does the power output decline with age,from Day
One?(As I believe.) I suspect they're figuring the usual owner will
not notice the decline.(until they get the bill for replacement
panels...and are still paying for the originals!)

yes. they're warranteed to produce 95% of rating at the 25 year mark. mine
are made by one of the largest producers in the world, so i'd expect them to
be around for that long.

WRT inverters,what good does a warranty do when your inverter fails
when you need the power? How long before a replacement is sent?
does the warranty cover the loss of revenue because you're wasting the
power generated by your panel array and can't sell it to the
utility,and have to buy power from the utility or go without?
what if the inverter starts a fire when it blows out? does the
warranty cover that loss? does your homeowner insurance cover that
sort of loss?

it's the same warrantee as any other electrical component; limited to
equipment replacement, not warranteed for any other expenses or losses. it's
covered by normal home owners insurance (hail, loss, theft, fire, etc).

my panels went through a hail storm last fall, which is very rare in my
area. golfball sized. no damage at all.

On Apr 25, 5:49*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 23:18:13 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





Don't forget the clueless or greedy individuals who signed up for loans
they knew damn well they could not afford. I blame them as much as I
blame the hucksters that invited them into the tent. I could have gotten
paper for twice as much house as I bought, but saw no point in it. And
even with the housing crash, I think I could still sell this place for
as much as I paid for it. No profit, especially once you subtract out
repairs, interest, taxes, etc, but I am far from upside down. 'Blue
collar' houses didn't crash near as bad as McMansions.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They were all conned. *The biggest con of all is the "American Dream".
The fact that there *were so many conned points to the efficiency of
the lies and propaganda Americans are subjected to.

You need to ask yourselves, did the banks know the facts that you set
out above?

Answer, yes, obviously.

So tell me, what you suppose their motive was?

Greed? Stupidity? Incompetance? Or a desire to destroy America?
Or is it a Russion/Chinese plot?

These bubbles are not anybody's plot although there were people
exploiting the situation. There were some smart builders who saw the
end of the party coming as soon as 3q2006. They stopped building
"inventory" units (only building "pre-sold houses" with $50k down) and
they tried to avoid selling to "investors", generally defined as
anyone with 2 existing mortgages. This tended to preserve the
communities that they were developing and they did not have that many
foreclosures. Other developments where they used less discretion,
became ghost towns.

It is easy to say the bankers were the only greedy ones but you can't
ignore the greed of buyers who entered into contracts they had no real
way of honoring, in the hopes that they could "flip" the house at a
profit before they had to pay the higher "adjusted" rate they signed
up for.
The victims were the ones who bought a homestead in that inflated
market. I tried to talk as many of those people I could into renting
until things settled down. The smart ones did and I know one guy who
lived rent free for over 2 years while the house he rented went
through a protracted foreclosure process. In real life, he could still
be living there because it is still hung up in court but he had a
chance to buy a house at a price he couldn't refuse. He had 2 years
rent to put down on the house ... almost $40,000. He only paid $80k
for the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There were lots of houses sold to people who had no chance of
affording mortgages payments. The only reason was the bonus the
sellers of these mortgages got. Same with insurance and lots of other
goods. The instant gratification syndrome doesn't help either.
Here in the UK some were offering 125% loans on houses. Unbelievable.
They are virtually in a negative equity position now.
Then there were endowment mortgages. Hah!

On 4/25/2011 2:18 AM, harry wrote:
On Apr 24, 5:26 pm, wrote:
On 4/24/2011 10:36 AM, Han wrote:





wrote in news:de2db6ae-
:

As an example, in the recent housing bubble,
everyone got the idea that housing was a great investment, that
it could only go up. The government helped, by subsidizing real
estate with huge tax breaks, requiring lenders to make loans
in low income areas regardless of credit worthiness and keeping
interest rates very low.

In response to that, demand for housing increased, causing prices
to rise in response. Exactly how markets behave following the
most basic rules of economics.

Exactly, on the surface. Dig a little deeper and greed, stupidity and
abdication of responsibility played much bigger roles than "markets". But
I dont think we'll ever agree amongst all of us who bears the most
responsibility. Suffice it to say that the housing bubble wasn't uniform
over the US, and certainly not over all developed countries. Therefore,
either the markets were differentially manipulated, or some countries had
"better" regulation than others.

Don't forget the clueless or greedy individuals who signed up for loans
they knew damn well they could not afford. I blame them as much as I
blame the hucksters that invited them into the tent. I could have gotten
paper for twice as much house as I bought, but saw no point in it. And
even with the housing crash, I think I could still sell this place for
as much as I paid for it. No profit, especially once you subtract out
repairs, interest, taxes, etc, but I am far from upside down. 'Blue
collar' houses didn't crash near as bad as McMansions.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They were all conned. The biggest con of all is the "American Dream".
The fact that there were so many conned points to the efficiency of
the lies and propaganda Americans are subjected to.

You need to ask yourselves, did the banks know the facts that you set
out above?

Answer, yes, obviously.

So tell me, what you suppose their motive was?

Greed? Stupidity? Incompetance? Or a desire to destroy America?
Or is it a Russion/Chinese plot?

Hard to people unless they let you. Like I said, I blame the people who
took out the loans, as much as the crooks who wrote them. Greedy or
stupid or poorly educated in basic finance (by schools or parents),
doesn't make much difference. Nobody held a gun to their heads. The ones
I truly feel sorry for are the ones who tried to buy something they
could afford, but had to buy high or lose a job, since the area they
lived in was riding the bubble up. Market collapsed, and often their job
did too, and now they are under water.

--
aem sends...

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 23:12:00 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Apr 24, 5:04*pm, "
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Apr 24, 2:17*am, "
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:43:28 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 5:08*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:55:39 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:10*am, "
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:02:51 -0700, "chaniarts" wrote:
Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.

It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)

As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter.
(And cash importer)

how about some numbers,

how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?

Mark

Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant
and it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years
ago. Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to
recoup.

if it wasn't for grants/subsidies, they would never pay for themselves as
the payback time is longer than the equipment lifetime.

Particularly in an area with the possibility of hail.

that said, the payback for my system is about 4.5 years at current
electrical rates; there is a planned increase in rates for later this year,
and we've had one every 2 years or so, so the payback time would get a bit
shorter.

As long as they don't drop the subsidies, perhaps. *You're still relying on
the grid as a "battery". *If everyone did this the grid would fail. *IOW, it's
a losing proposition.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Small generating site distributed round the grid help matters by
reducing grid loading.

No, it *hurts* by reducing control. *If even a large fraction of the people
did it, the net cash flow would be out; not good for the infrastructure,
either.

The grid tie inverters are required to have an "anti-islanding"
feature..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-islanding

Dumbass.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Whats the differnence beween 3Kw into the system and 3Kw out? Both
pose exactly the same control problems.

You really are clueless. *The sun is pretty well synchronized across a wide
area. *Loads aren't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So? *That means the input can be predicted so simplifying the problem.

Good God, you're clueless. Not only is the load varying but so is the
generation; much of it synchronized, in unpredictable areas, rather than at
random (which is actually *more* predictable).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It makes exactly no difference. The control problems are the same. PV
panels are quite predictable.

It's a damned good thing you're not an EE.

It would be different if we were PV generating on a massive scale. But
my 4Kw and thousands more round the country are neither here nor
there.

Try reading, imbecile.

But if I had a foundry with Mw electric furnaces for example, that too
would be a massive control problem. But clearlynot insurmountable as
they exist

You really are a clueless asshat.

harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:22 pm, "
wrote:
On Apr 22, 9:57 pm, wrote:





On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:26 pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:
My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.
It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)
As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)
how about some numbers,
how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?
Mark
Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.
There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive
I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.
The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

The core issue is energy storage.
Grid tie uses the utility as "storage".
If you wanna operate off-grid, you need some form of local energy
storage.
Unbuffered solar is very unreliable, even when the sun is shining.

wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 22, 6:26 pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:







My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of yesterday.
It has little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)
As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)
how about some numbers,
how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?
Mark
Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive


I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.

I never understood this kind of analysis. If you borrowed the money
at 5% (or saved it at 5%), interest would cost you $862/year. The payback
period is NEVER. Solar is financially viable only if someone else
pays for YOUR system. As a taxpayer, that someone else is ME! GRRRRRR!!!!

The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.

The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.

I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
Half of the reason I wanted to do this is to have some power when the
grid is gone. If I could get transfer equipment that would let me go
off grid I might do this for the 30% fed deal.

On Apr 26, 12:49*am, mike wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:22 pm, "
wrote:
On Apr 22, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:
On Apr 22, 6:26 pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:
My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.
It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)
As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter.. (And
cash importer)
how about some numbers,
how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?
Mark
Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.
There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive
I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.
The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. *If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

The core issue is energy storage.
Grid tie uses the utility as "storage".
If you wanna operate off-grid, you need some form of local energy
storage.
Unbuffered solar is very unreliable, even when the sun is shining.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's not about operating off grid. There is no means of storing
electricty and never will be. The issue is diversity of suppy and
geographical spread. There are much lower losses using locally
generated power.

On Apr 26, 12:55*am, mike wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 22, 6:26 pm, Frank wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:44 AM, Mark wrote:

My grid linked solar power plant is up and running as of *yesterday.
It has *little display panel on the inverter where you can see the
cash being ratcheted in.
Caching,caching,caching. (cash register noise:-)
As well as supplying my own power through the day, I am supplying
several of my nieghbours. *My home is now a net energy exporter. (And
cash importer)
how about some numbers,
how many kW does your system produce peak?
how many kWh do you use a day?
how much did it cost you to install?
what subsidies did you get?
how long will it take you to break even?
Mark
Article in local paper about installing system in a church.
They said half the cost of $738,000 was subsidized by a state grant and
it would pay for itself in 10 years.

There was a similar article about a home owner doing it a few years ago.
Can't remember subsidy but they said it would take 30 years to recoup..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
May well be right. There was previous scheme over here where they
subsidised installations in private homes. But our gov. is bust now.
So they are doing this scheme that costs them nothing now.
There is a new scheme coming out next year to encourage heat pumps &
solar thermal. I'm looking out for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive

I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.

I never understood this kind of analysis. *If you borrowed the money
at 5% (or saved it at 5%), interest would cost you $862/year. *The payback
period is NEVER. *Solar is financially viable only if someone else
pays for YOUR system. *As a taxpayer, that someone else is ME! GRRRRRR!!!!



The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.

The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.

I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
Half of the reason I wanted to do this is to have some power when the
grid is gone. If I could get transfer equipment that would let me go
off grid I might do this for the 30% fed deal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or if the price paid for electricity generated is enhanced.
What is the point of going off grid if mains electricity is more
reliably available than solar?
It's about diversity of supply.

On Apr 26, 2:48*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:49:17 -0700, mike wrote:
I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.
The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. *If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

The core issue is energy storage.
Grid tie uses the utility as "storage".
If you wanna operate off-grid, you need some form of local energy
storage.
Unbuffered solar is very unreliable, even when the sun is shining.

I have a golf cart. That is about 1200-1500 A/H of storage, right in
my garage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Next to nothing in real terms. And expensive.

On Apr 26, 2:48*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:49:17 -0700, mike wrote:
I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.
The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. *If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

The core issue is energy storage.
Grid tie uses the utility as "storage".
If you wanna operate off-grid, you need some form of local energy
storage.
Unbuffered solar is very unreliable, even when the sun is shining.

I have a golf cart. That is about 1200-1500 A/H of storage, right in
my garage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You must live somewhere with more sunshine than me.
I have a 4Kwp array and the predicted power generated is only 3200Kwh.
Aspect is near perfect too.
On a sunny day, it's doing around 20Kwh daily.

I would check these calculations out, they seem very dodgy to me. If
my installation was in Ca, I would only get 4500Kwh.

On Apr 26, 7:03*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:31:55 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

The core issue is energy storage.
Grid tie uses the utility as "storage".
If you wanna operate off-grid, you need some form of local energy
storage.
Unbuffered solar is very unreliable, even when the sun is shining.

I have a golf cart. That is about 1200-1500 A/H of storage, right in
my garage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Next to nothing in real terms. *And expensive.

It is plenty if the sun can keep the batteries up during the day and I
have modest usage at night. My only interest would be for enough power
to keep a fridge and a water pump going after a hurricane.
Maybe a little extra power for a TV.
That is 9 KWH or so. That is why I was looking at the 2300W system. In
an off grid configuration it would bring my batteries back from dead
in a day with some left over.

Don't confuse battery ampere-hours with Kwh. They are NOT the same
thing,

You need to factor in the battery voltage.
ie multiply ampere hours with the avarage battery voltage over it's
discharge cyle. Then divide by one thousand.
This will give an approximation of the Kwh a battery holds.
You will find that the power batteries carry really is negligable.

On Apr 26, 7:06*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:45:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Apr 26, 2:48*am, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:49:17 -0700, mike wrote:
I have a proposal on my fridge for 2.3KW of solar for $17,250.
They are only really willing to say I will average about 13.8 KWH a
day over a year (5037 KWH a year). I pay 13 cents a KWH so that is
$654.81 a year. That pays back in 26.34 years if it doesn't break or
get blown away by a hurricane.
The federal government will kick back 30% and that drops it to a bit
over 18 years.
The state promised to kick back another 53% but that program ran out
of money and the people who planned on that money are swinging in the
wind right now. With all of the tax payer kickbacks it really made
sense but like all things too good to be true, the deal evaporated.
I was also not really that excited about the grid tie because if the
power is out, all of that generating power on your roof is out too.
The grid tie inverters only work when the grid is present.
That'a a real kick in the ass too, ain't it? * I was quite surprised
about
that when I first learned it. *I bet most people don't even realize it
works that way. *I wonder what the core issue is here and why
they haven't figured out a way around it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The core isssue is safety. *If someone isolates and electrical circuit
they need to know it's dead, not being back fed from a PV system..

The core issue is energy storage.
Grid tie uses the utility as "storage".
If you wanna operate off-grid, you need some form of local energy
storage.
Unbuffered solar is very unreliable, even when the sun is shining.

I have a golf cart. That is about 1200-1500 A/H of storage, right in
my garage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You must live somewhere with more sunshine than me.
I have a 4Kwp array and the predicted power generated is only 3200Kwh.
Aspect is near perfect too.
On a sunny day, it's doing around 20Kwh daily.

I would check these calculations out, they seem very dodgy to me. If
my installation was in Ca, I would only get 4500Kwh.

South Florida.
They were telling me I should count on about 5 hours worth of the
rated capacity, averaged over a full day.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, I have had my array for only a week. One a bright sunny,haze
free day it does full capacity for only a couple of hours. I get half
capacity for a further four hours or so & a third for a further four
hours. It runs for long periods in the evening at around 150w,
probably not relevant to you in Florida.
In heavy overcast I get 200W, maybe 500w around midday. As our days
lenghten I will get more power obviously.
I have noted that even a slight haze knocks 500w-1000w off the
generated power which might be an issue in your climate.
One thing definitely against you in Florida is they are less efficient
when they are hot.
In Winter we have long gloomy periods in the UK when I shall be lucky
to get 3 or 4 Kwh/day I suppose.
Watch out for shading, ie shadows being cast over your site, major
issue as if one panels is shaded it affects them all on the same
string.
If the inverter overloads or detects high/low grid voltage it will
shut down. This may be an issue that effects you.

In article
,
harry wrote:

As our days
lenghten I will get more power obviously.

It will be interesting to make note of the difference you experience.
I've heard that the installation angle (assuming it's not adjustable) is
usually optimized for winter. In summer you'd get less power per hour,
but for a longer period.

On Apr 27, 12:00*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*harry wrote:
As our days
lenghten I will get more power obviously.

It will be interesting to make note of the difference you experience.
I've heard that the installation angle (assuming it's not adjustable) is
usually optimized for winter. In summer you'd get less power per hour,
but for a longer period.

There is a table that sets out orientation (ie degrees East or West of
South) and inclination of the array. On the table are percentages to
reduce the output by as the array diverges from the ideal.

The idea linclination for the UK is 35 deg. (from the horizontal.)
Obiviously a lot less in Florida.
I could send you a table but it would be no good for your area.
The inclination table is optimised for maximum annual power output,
not to partially equalise output over the year. Maybe again less
relevant in Florida.

Tracking devices exist to follow the sun. Not often seen over here.