Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

On 4/16/2011 11:13 PM, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Get it spray-foamed. You can probably take an energy credit (if I
understand the IRS page correctly), and you can depreciate it on your
taxes (schedule E) as a substantial improvement.

--
aem sends...

wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard
Hi,
Fiber is out if there is a possibility of getting wet.

wrote in message
...
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

There is price and there is value. No way would I use fiber in a crawl
space. Could be good rodent nesting. Spray foam is best for that, but foam
board would be my next choice.

On Apr 17, 4:13*am, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. *I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

If you have the space, go for the cheap option (which will be thicker)

The ridgid board is more expensive so should be used only where the is
a space restriction or some other problem like it needing to be walked
on.

Rodents are not a problem in mineral fibre, more so in natural fibres.

More time and care is need to install the board. Very important not
to leave any gaps.

"Crawlies" get everywhere whatever you have.

On Apr 16, 10:13*pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. *I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch.
Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero, filber glass
irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets. With gas
prices going up I think foam will be alot more.

aemeijers wrote:

On 4/16/2011 11:13 PM, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Get it spray-foamed. You can probably take an energy credit (if I
understand the IRS page correctly), and you can depreciate it on your
taxes (schedule E) as a substantial improvement.

Second the spray foam. Your gain will be more noticeable in comfort
than $$ saved--- but if you're renting, keeping those tenants for a
second winter is a plus.

Fiberglass will last a couple years before critters make it useless.
Rigid foam *could* be done with a whole lot of crawling in the dirt
and sealing edges with great stuff. [ideally the rigid stuff would be
placed between the joists with 1/2 dead air space between it and the
floor-- edges 'caulked' with expanding foam-- a foil sheet in there
would probably be a good idea, too.]

The spray foam will be most expensive-- but you can be doing something
more productive for the days you would have spent crawling in the
dirt.

Jim

ransley wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:13 pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13
or 1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier
on the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch.

Getting foamboard to fit tightly will be way more work, IMHO.

Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero,

Really? Where did this come "data" come from?


filber glass
irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets.

Somehow, I doubt that. Cutting foam to fit, especially around cross bracing will
never be easy.

On Apr 17, 8:15*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
aemeijers wrote:
On 4/16/2011 11:13 PM, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. *I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Get it spray-foamed. You can probably take an energy credit (if I
understand the IRS page correctly), and you can depreciate it on your
taxes (schedule E) as a substantial improvement.

Second the spray foam. * *Your gain will be more noticeable in comfort
than $$ saved--- but if you're renting, keeping those tenants for a
second winter is a plus.

Fiberglass will last a couple years before critters make it useless.
Rigid foam *could* be done with a whole lot of crawling in the dirt
and sealing edges with great stuff. *[ideally the rigid stuff would be
placed between the joists with 1/2 dead air space between it and the
floor-- edges 'caulked' with expanding foam-- a foil sheet in there
would probably be a good idea, too.]

The spray foam will be most expensive-- but you can be doing something
more productive for the days you would have spent crawling in the
dirt. *

Jim

Thanks folks,

Foam seems to be the favorite for this application. Yes, my intent is
to keep a tenant as long as possible. Paying utility bills is another
burden/factor.

Will leaving a dead space not cause a problem with moisture
accumulation/condensation?

Again, thanks. Will go with foam.

richard

On Apr 17, 12:04*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:13 pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13
or 1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier
on the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch.

Getting foamboard to fit tightly will be way more work, IMHO.

Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero,

Really? Where did this come "data" come from?

filber glass

irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets.

Somehow, I doubt that. Cutting foam to fit, especially around cross bracing will
never be easy.

Google it,

On Apr 17, 12:04*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:13 pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13
or 1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier
on the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch.

Getting foamboard to fit tightly will be way more work, IMHO.

Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero,

Really? Where did this come "data" come from?

filber glass

irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets.

Somehow, I doubt that. Cutting foam to fit, especially around cross bracing will
never be easy.

Loosing r value as it gets colder is a fact and at zero might be
10-25% or more, if you read fiberglass manufactuers they admit it but
say its minimal, if you read cellulose manufacturers thay will say
50%. Maybe www.energystar.org or www.Energystar.com the US gov site
will have the best info. Its documented, but the exact percentage and
at what temp I dont know. For southern areas its not to relavent, but
up north it is. Cellulose is supposed to settle more than fiberglass,
but both do settle. Best is to over do it and take a higher standard,
not your minimum code requirements. For my area Zone 5 is R35, but I
did R100 and iy settled to R 90 about. Heat rises and doing an attic
is actualy cheap in what you can save over time. foam seals out air,
so it helps even more.

On 4/17/2011 2:16 PM, ransley wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:04 pm, "Bob wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:13 pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13
or 1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier
on the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch.

Getting foamboard to fit tightly will be way more work, IMHO.

Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero,

Really? Where did this come "data" come from?

filber glass

irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets.

Somehow, I doubt that. Cutting foam to fit, especially around cross bracing will
never be easy.

Google it,

Okay, dumb question- what if you applied foam board below the joists,
running it crossways. Hang it with those screwgun screws with the big
washers, and tape the joints? Would the dead space between foam and
subfloor cause problems, assuming the foam board was rated as a vapor
barrier? That way it would go up pretty quick, and if you marked where
any ducts or utility lines run, it would be pretty easy to get at them,
later. Is there something obvious I am missing? I've seen detached
garage ceilings done this way, to keep the vented attic from
superheating the garage bay while it is closed up all day.

--
aem sends....

--
aem sends...

On Apr 17, 2:33*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/17/2011 2:16 PM, ransley wrote:





On Apr 17, 12:04 pm, "Bob *wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:13 pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13
or 1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier
on the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch..

Getting foamboard to fit tightly will be way more work, IMHO.

Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero,

Really? Where did this come "data" come from?

filber glass

irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets.

Somehow, I doubt that. Cutting foam to fit, especially around cross bracing will
never be easy.

Google it,

Okay, dumb question- what if you applied foam board below the joists,
running it crossways. Hang it with those screwgun screws with the big
washers, and tape the joints? Would the dead space between foam and
subfloor cause problems, assuming the foam board was rated as a vapor
barrier? That way it would go up pretty quick, and if you marked where
any ducts or utility lines run, it would be pretty easy to get at them,
later. Is there something obvious I am missing? I've seen detached
garage ceilings done this way, to keep the vented attic from
superheating the garage bay while it is closed up all day.

--
aem sends....

--
aem sends...

It would work and lower humidity in the house in summer by keeping it
in the crawl space. Just butting the joints will seal most of the air.
I wonder if just stuffing batts up in the rafters might not be best
for a cost reason, fiberglass has to be cheaper. and it wont get any
drafts or rel low temps that would disadvantage it. It has to be a
cost decision I would guess. Unless the crawlspace is a swamp !

wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Do fire codes actually allow installing foam without covering it with
something highly fire resistant? Should they allow it?

"larry moe 'n curly" wrote

Do fire codes actually allow installing foam without covering it with
something highly fire resistant? Should they allow it?


Foam is made from modified materials that will not burn unless thee is
another source of ignition present. Unlike a living space, there is no
heater, etc. that will start a fire. Local codes can always vary though.

On Apr 17, 10:20*pm, "larry moe 'n curly"
wrote:
wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. *I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Do fire codes actually allow installing foam without covering it with
something highly fire resistant? *Should they allow it?

It may be code to cover it, I think its the fumes that will kill you
if it burns. Fiberglass doesnt have that issue. I think.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"larry moe 'n curly" wrote

Do fire codes actually allow installing foam without covering it with
something highly fire resistant? Should they allow it?

Foam is made from modified materials that will not burn unless there is
another source of ignition present. Unlike a living space, there is no
heater, etc. that will start a fire. Local codes can always vary though.

Regular styrofoam is like that, and that's why I don't trust the term
"self extinguishing" very much.

On 4/18/2011 9:48 AM, ransley wrote:
On Apr 17, 10:20 pm, "larry moe 'n
wrote:
wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13 or
1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier on
the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Do fire codes actually allow installing foam without covering it with
something highly fire resistant? Should they allow it?

It may be code to cover it, I think its the fumes that will kill you
if it burns. Fiberglass doesnt have that issue. I think.

I thought the requirement to cover it was only within the living area,
or around ignition sources? I'd love to hang a foam panel curtain from
the sill plate in my abandoned barely-accessible garage bay in the
basement, but nobody around here sells the fire-rated stuff. Don't wanna
stud it out and finish it due to moisture problems, but I figured a foam
curtain from the sill plate to a few inches above the slab (and well
below grade) would would warm the space and the bedrooms above it, and
still let me see any leaks as they occur. Remove a couple screws, and
the panel could pop right off.

--
aem sends....

"aemeijers" wrote


I thought the requirement to cover it was only within the living area, or
around ignition sources? I'd love to hang a foam panel curtain from the
sill plate in my abandoned barely-accessible garage bay in the basement,
but nobody around here sells the fire-rated stuff.

ALL foam made for insulation and construction is made from "modified grade"
material. It must meet the specifications or cannot be sold.
I must be in compliance with ASTM C578
Typical specification:
1.01 INSULATION
A. Foam-Control EPS in compliance with ASTM C578.
B. Foam-Control EPS with flame spread of less than 25 and a smoke developed
index of less than 450

On 4/18/2011 10:46 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"aemeijers" wrote


I thought the requirement to cover it was only within the living area,
or around ignition sources? I'd love to hang a foam panel curtain from
the sill plate in my abandoned barely-accessible garage bay in the
basement, but nobody around here sells the fire-rated stuff.

ALL foam made for insulation and construction is made from "modified
grade" material. It must meet the specifications or cannot be sold.
I must be in compliance with ASTM C578
Typical specification:
1.01 INSULATION
A. Foam-Control EPS in compliance with ASTM C578.
B. Foam-Control EPS with flame spread of less than 25 and a smoke
developed index of less than 450



So why do all the panels in the local Borg say they have to be covered
with drywall? I thought that one flavor of foam panel (can never
remember the name) had been blessed for uncovered installations?

I'm tempted to just buy the thickest foil-covered iso panels I can stand
to pay for, and do it anyway, since there is pretty much no inspection
out here. I'm just afraid I'd have to rip it all down at sale time
though, and that stuff adds up fast.

--
aem sends...

--
aem sends...

On Apr 17, 1:04*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
ransley wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:13 pm, wrote:
Hello all,

Looking for opinions on crawl space insulation. This is for an old
rent house on block and pad foundation. I am considering either R13
or 1 1/2" rigid foam (vapor barrier on one side and radiant barrier
on the other).

Fiber seems to have better cumulative R-value. However, I don't know
if bugs and crawlies nesting in it will be an issue. I can get the 1
1/2 for about 10 dollars a piece. Fiber will let me do this
incrementally as time allows.

Trying to get a feel on what is the better option.

thanks
richard

Foam board is easier to work with , not affected by moisture, no itch.

Getting foamboard to fit tightly will be way more work, IMHO.

Fiberglass looses R value as it gets colder near zero,

Really? Where did this come "data" come from?

filber glass

irritates but there are types they say dont but they cost more. Foam
should be easier to get an airtight seal between sheets.

Somehow, I doubt that. Cutting foam to fit, especially around cross bracing will
never be easy.

Fiberglas is considered poor for small currents that build up when
there is a high temperature differential. I guess the orientation is
also important. Cellular is better at blocking air flow, thus offering
better r value. Rigid foam has no
Air flow. I believe the thinner the glass fibers, the better r value.
I liked when corning made the no itch fine fibers.
Also best in speaker boxes.

Greg

"aemeijers" wrote
So why do all the panels in the local Borg say they have to be covered
with drywall? I thought that one flavor of foam panel (can never remember
the name) had been blessed for uncovered installations?

Foam will not support combustion on its own, but it will burn if others
things around it are burning. Put a match to it and it burns. Take the
match away, the fire goes out in seconds.


I'm tempted to just buy the thickest foil-covered iso panels I can stand
to pay for, and do it anyway, since there is pretty much no inspection out
here. I'm just afraid I'd have to rip it all down at sale time though, and
that stuff adds up fast.

I'd probably do that.

On Apr 19, 5:25*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 4/18/2011 10:46 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:





"aemeijers" wrote

I thought the requirement to cover it was only within the living area,
or around ignition sources? I'd love to hang a foam panel curtain from
the sill plate in my abandoned barely-accessible garage bay in the
basement, but nobody around here sells the fire-rated stuff.

ALL foam made for insulation and construction is made from "modified
grade" material. It must meet the specifications or cannot be sold.
I must be in compliance with ASTM C578
Typical specification:
1.01 INSULATION
A. Foam-Control EPS in compliance with ASTM C578.
B. Foam-Control EPS with flame spread of less than 25 and a smoke
developed index of less than 450

So why do all the panels in the local Borg say they have to be covered
with drywall? *I thought that one flavor of foam panel (can never
remember the name) had been blessed for uncovered installations?

I'm tempted to just buy the thickest foil-covered iso panels I can stand
to pay for, and do it anyway, since there is pretty much no inspection
out here. I'm just afraid I'd have to rip it all down at sale time
though, and that stuff adds up fast.

--
aem sends...

--
aem sends...

local code would by why, the fumes are poisonous when burnt. Another
example in my area 5/8" Firecode X drywall is all i can use in my
building, and my HD has it. Fire codes are getting tougher every year
and affect you when you sell.

"ransley" wrote

local code would by why, the fumes are poisonous when burnt.

The iso plastic can be poisonous, but the styrene foams are not "poisonous"
, but in quantity are not good for you. The products of combustion are the
same a a candle or kerosene lamp, mostly soot. Breathing too much soot from
any source in harmful.

On Apr 20, 9:38*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"ransley" wrote



local code would by why, the fumes are poisonous when burnt.

The iso plastic can be poisonous, but the styrene foams are not "poisonous"
, but in quantity are not good for you. *The products of combustion are the
same a a candle or kerosene lamp, mostly soot. *Breathing too much soot from
any source in harmful.

I thought the smoldering fumes from all foams and plastic based
materials were bad, { most things in your home]. Have you tried it,
just kidding.