In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote:

George wrote:

On 1/16/2011 10:21 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
-snip-

That's exactly what I do. I NEVER carry a balance on any of the three
cards* I have ( four, with the new Visa).
They hate people like us, nyah, nyah, nyah.


They just don't like as as much. Since they are still inserted into the
transaction they get to collect the non-trivial merchant fees which the
merchant is not allowed to display.

Zackly-- I haven't paid any CC interest in a decade. They pay me
about $100 a month in rewards. My credit is excellent- I don't know
the numbers, I just see the dealer's face light up when I go for a car
loan.

Jim

If you're getting 1% cash back, then you're spending 10,000/month on
your credit cards. I imagine there's a few things about your situation
that would make a car dealer's eyes light up.

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote:
-snip-

Zackly-- I haven't paid any CC interest in a decade. They pay me
about $100 a month in rewards. My credit is excellent- I don't know
the numbers, I just see the dealer's face light up when I go for a car
loan.

Jim

If you're getting 1% cash back, then you're spending 10,000/month on
your credit cards. I imagine there's a few things about your situation
that would make a car dealer's eyes light up.

Juggling 4 cards, I get [this quarter]
5% on gas, 3% on Amazon, 5% 'in a grocery store' , 1-2% on anything
else--- plus all the 'we're dying to have you as a customer' bonuses.
If it is over $20, I'll bite. I've gotten $100 several times, $50 is
common.

They slowed down for a while- but the past few months have picked up
again.

Jim

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:26:27 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Josh wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 07:30:58 -0500, "The Henchman"
wrote:



"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

I've heard tell that occasionally using a credit card but always keeping
it paid off every month is the best strategy for keeping ones score high.

And I've heard that it's better to have an outstanding balance with a
history of regular payments.

----------------

Outstanding balance means paying interest. At 20% interest per year for
many cards, you think that's wise?

Think carefully about what types of outstanding balances are good and bad.

No, it doesn't -- the credit report only shows your average and
maximum balances (If I recall my last one correctly), and whether you
"pay as agreed" or have late payments. Charging and paying it off
without interest every month shows up the same as paying less (with a
similar ending balance, of course). Unless something's changed in the
last year or so?

Josh

Do you have a cite for that, Josh? I'd like to see something definitive,
and all we're doing so far in this thread is trading opinions based on
what each of has heard in the rumor mill.

I just went to annualcreditreport.com (the official FTC-sponsored
site) and pulled my Transunion report because I hadn't in a couple
years. We pay all of our cards off every month, and all of them show:

Balance: $x (the amount on our last bill, which we paid in full)

High Balance: $y (as far as I can tell, the highest monthly balance
the card has ever had).

And then a bunch of green "OK" boxes indicating no late payments for
the last 48 months (or less if the card is newer).

I can't guarantee that there's not further information that someone
could get (especially if the one doing the credit evaluation is from
the same bank), but I'm pretty sure this report is supposed to have
all of the data about you that's used for such things. I'm open to
any contrary information.

An important observation:

Be careful with "signature" cards with "no preset spending limit" and
the like. The two of these we have don't have a "credit limit" field,
so any analysis of credit used vs available won't be correct (I recall
a few years ago some scoring algorithms counted them as a 0 limit,
which clearly isn't right). And contrary to what you might think,
having more available credit is often *better* for your score, up to a
certain point. For those with mortgages or other large loans with
good histories, it's probably not a big deal, but others should be
aware of that.

Josh

Smitty Two wrote:
-snip-

No, I don't think it's wise, at least not for me in my current
situation. I'm just saying that I've heard it's better for one's credit
score to *not* pay in full every month. I do carry a balance on one
card; I bought a car with it a few years ago and it's fixed at 1.99%.

OOPs! That reminds me--- I *am* paying CC interest. A 3.9% we used
for a used car we don't even own anymore--- but hey- who wants to pay
off a 4% loan when the market is doing so well.g

Jim

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 21:09:05 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 1/16/2011 7:34 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

That link says you lose the history of good credit on that card.
If you're never use it it's worthless for credit history.
But it does add onto your "available" credit, and that's not good.

No, it's good, because it lowers your debt to credit ratio. It's
counter-intuitive, but that the way it works.

Lots of apples and oranges.
My reading of the debt/credit ratio component of FICO scoring is the
debt part is based on revolving credit balance.
So if you don't carry a balance the ratio is always sterling.
And even if you occasionally carry a balance, since FICO is
periodically recalculated, having useless credit cards around is
senseless, especially if they are sending you zero balance bills and
adding to the junk mail.

Much of this FICO stuff is lender and CC scamming.
They want you to keep the card so they get transaction fees.
FICO is a decent tool for creditors, but way too much of it made for
those who pay their bills on time and use their CC's as a convenience,
and not as a loan machine
Of course the FICO algorithms are "trade secrets."


You're right about the debt/credit ratio having a FICO score effect
for those with revolving credit balances.
But you can't say how much. That factoring is a "secret."
Good way to scare those folks to get more credit cards, get into more
debt, and ultimately increase the already usurious interest rates on
their cards.

When I got my mortgage in 1997 my mortgage broker told me to cancel
unused cards. I had a hefty balance on one card.
And a couple other unused cards with high limits.
According to him the lenders didn't like all the "available credit."
So FICO was only one criteria they used.
Of course lenders had a sense of fiduciary responsibility then.
Similarly, insurance companies use a modified "insurance FICO" to
assign risk and determine premiums - some of them don't use FICO at
all. It's all "trade secrets" of course.

No question that you don't want a poor FICO score.
And you want to avoid felony convictions too.
But for the average Joe who pays his bills on time and doesn't carry a
CC balance, you don't have to worry about it.
Certainly not enough to listen to bankers threatening your FICO score
if you don't keep their credit card.

--Vic

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:34:35 -0800, Josh
wrote:



I just pulled my Transunion report, and nowhere does it indicate
whether I've paid interest -- all of the balances are the most recent
month's purchase total and per-month "OK"s; no way to tell whether it
was paid in full or something lower.


Interesting. Maybe I shouldn't have said what I said about it not
affecting the credit/debt ratio if you pay in full each month.
According to what you said they just use the balance at the time they
do the report. Makes sense for easy accounting.
Still not convinced that the Transunion and other reports have
everything that go into developing the FICO.
So much of the whole apparatus is "secret."

One simple way to get an idea would be to get your FICO score, then
without changing other habits, add a credit card.
Then get your FICO score again.
But you have to pay for your FICO score unless you go about it by
having somebody who can pull it for you.
Of course that's a "hit" against your FICO score!
Sweet deal they got going.

But I still say that worrying about the FICO score is immaterial for
those not deep in debt and paying bills normally.
For those the score is going to be good enough not to affect any
thing they do.
But I'm guessing - because the algorithms are secret.
And I haven't taken out any kind of loan in many years, except
mortgage refis. Always got terrific rates on those.

--Vic

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Nancy Young" wrote:


Here is what determines your credit sco

http://www.myfico.com/crediteducatio...yourscore.aspx



Interesting, but ultimately almost uselessly vague.

I think they're being clear what they're using to come up with
your score.

nancy

On 1/17/2011 4:33 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In ,
wrote:


However one strange thing I came across when re-financing my house was
that a high HELOC limit was bad. They said that they treat the HELOC as
if it were maxed out and I were paying the minimum amount each month,
even when it's not being used at all. Yet high limits on credit cards,
that could also be maxed out at interest rates 4-8 times as high, were
not a problem. Or maybe because it's so expensive to get cash advances
on credit cards they are less worried about it. Yet a HELOC is a secured
loan so I'd be much less likely to default on it, while credit card debt
is unsecured.

The HELOC is another encumberance on the same property. So, you were
probably hit more because the HELOC (even though unused, but could be)
effectively lowered your equity in the house. If you were buying a car
instead of refinancing a house, it probably wouldn't have impacted as
much.

The best thing to do if you're on the edge of being approved is to max
out the HELOC and use the money to pay down the balance of the mortgage
so you need a smaller 1st mortgage. They'll subordinate the HELOC when
they do the new loan. Also, the HELOC, if you got it a while ago,
probably has a lower interest rate than even the best mortgage interest
rate. My HELOC is at prime-1/2 which is currently 2.75%. The best first
mortgage interest rate I could get was 3.75% on a 10 year fixed.

On 1/17/2011 6:43 AM, willshak wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote the following:
I want to cancel a Visa that I never use (from Bank of America, tfui,
tfui). I searched long and hard on their Web site to find a link, and
finally came across the following:

http://tinyurl.com/48p2qo7

They "threaten" that cancelling a card might lower one's credit
score. ??? Is this true? Or is it a marketing
gimmick?

Your real-world experience valued.

HB


Don't cancel it.
http://www.creditcards.com/credit-ca...score-1267.php

If you're carrying balances on any cards then it makes sense to not
cancel unused cards. But if you're not carrying a balance then your
credit utilization percentage is 0 no matter how much available credit
you have.

A while back Discover offered a deal I couldn't pass up. 0% no-fee
balance transfers with 0% interest for as long as you had the card and
missed no payments. You did have to make at least two charges of at
least $1 every month which would be subject to interest (later they
dropped that requirement). I took out $30,000 and bought CDs. I have to
make a payment each month but the interest rate is 0%.

In article ,
Vic Smith wrote:


FICO is a decent tool for creditors, but way too much of it made for
those who pay their bills on time and use their CC's as a convenience,
and not as a loan machine
Of course the FICO algorithms are "trade secrets."

I get a real kick out of the commercials for the credit score
"monitoring" people. They keep an eye "on all three of your credit
scores", while the one used most often and probably the most important
(the FICO) isn't included. Is to guffaw.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:49:41 -0800, SMS
wrote:


The best thing to do if you're on the edge of being approved is to max
out the HELOC and use the money to pay down the balance of the mortgage
so you need a smaller 1st mortgage. They'll subordinate the HELOC when
they do the new loan. Also, the HELOC, if you got it a while ago,
probably has a lower interest rate than even the best mortgage interest
rate. My HELOC is at prime-1/2 which is currently 2.75%. The best first
mortgage interest rate I could get was 3.75% on a 10 year fixed.


A lot of it is a dice game. The HELOCs are variable rate, so unlike
the fixed you have to be able to pay it off if rates jump.
If you can do that it's a good play
I had a zero balance HELOC for a while as a safety when my job looked
dicey and my mortgage principle was still high.
I could use it to pay my mortgage if I was out of work.
Luckily never had to use it.
But it never came close to beating my fixed, or even my variable rate
mortgage when I refied.
But the HELOC was prime +2.

--Vic

SMS wrote:
-snip-

A while back Discover offered a deal I couldn't pass up. 0% no-fee
balance transfers with 0% interest for as long as you had the card and
missed no payments. You did have to make at least two charges of at
least $1 every month which would be subject to interest (later they
dropped that requirement). I took out $30,000 and bought CDs. I have to
make a payment each month but the interest rate is 0%.


Yup- I got that one. I read that letter 3 times, on three different
days because I was sure there was a hitch. I got 20K & set up an
auto-payment from my bank-- and paid my $5/mo AOL account, and a $2/mo
website. Seems like it was a 5yr payback or so-- not bad for
$7/mo, even if I wasn't using those 2 accounts.

If Discover hadn't been such pricks with all the solicitations over
the next month I would have been their friend for life. It took
some major threats and a talk to a 2nd level supervisor to convince
them that I wasn't buying anything else. And never will. [though
I've been tempted by their 5% gas reward card]

Jim

On Jan 16, 10:21*pm, Higgs Boson wrote:
So is the consensus that I
just should let it sit there, unused, rather than cancel it?

That's a double-edged sword too.

If you don't use the card, they start dropping the credit limit on the
card, which hurts your credit score too.

On 1/17/2011 1:58 PM, SMS wrote:

If you're carrying balances on any cards then it makes sense to not
cancel unused cards. But if you're not carrying a balance then your
credit utilization percentage is 0 no matter how much available credit
you have.

A while back Discover offered a deal I couldn't pass up. 0% no-fee
balance transfers with 0% interest for as long as you had the card and
missed no payments. You did have to make at least two charges of at
least $1 every month which would be subject to interest (later they
dropped that requirement). I took out $30,000 and bought CDs. I have to
make a payment each month but the interest rate is 0%.

They are betting that people use the card for more and more purchases,
then your payments only go toward the 0% principle. Your purchases add
up and keep charging you 21% interest month after month. I think they
may have passed a law against it. It got my ex. We split up our debts
and I told her to get a new card to use and not to use that one for
purchases. No, she used it. Then she and her father were ****ed at me
for giving her that debt.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:33:17 -0500, George wrote:

On 1/16/2011 11:42 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:16:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 19:23:11 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:



Just effing INSANE! Even for people like moi who never carry a
balance??? It sounds so soulless and mechanical!

Of course. They don't make the rules for people who pay their bills
right away. Too few of them.

That's actually not true. Only a little over half have carried a CC balance in
the past year.

But your statistical sample period is way to small to catch the period
not too long ago when it was a good thing to not even have a budget.
Just simply buy what you wanted because somehow it would work out.


You listen to the Nightly News too much. The situation has bettered somewhat,
but it wasn't just all of a sudden that almost half of the people paid off
their CCs. Not everyone maxed out on their home equity, either.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 07:36:41 -0500, "The Henchman" wrote:



"Higgs Boson" wrote in message
...

I want to cancel a Visa that I never use (from Bank of America, tfui,
tfui). I searched long and hard on their Web site to find a link, and
finally came across the following:

http://tinyurl.com/48p2qo7

They "threaten" that cancelling a card might lower one's credit
score. ??? Is this true? Or is it a marketing
gimmick?

Your real-world experience valued.

HB

--------------

A trend is appearing that unused credit accounts will be subject to yearly
account fees. Like $25 or $35 a year fees. That's what they are starting
to do in Canada and our banking system is a lot stronger than the American
for the time being. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet in the US.

They'll find a *lot* of closed accounts. Don't think that's going to happen,
not when they're making the vig on every transaction.

For security and peace of mind if it were me. It's another account that's
open to fraud or misuse to theft etc etc.

I'd cancel the card and stop worrying about credit score. Your credit score
fluctuates every day anyways. As long as you are over 750 you'll always be
entitled to the best rates.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:22:13 -0600, "
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:33:17 -0500, George wrote:

On 1/16/2011 11:42 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:16:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 19:23:11 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:



Just effing INSANE! Even for people like moi who never carry a
balance??? It sounds so soulless and mechanical!

Of course. They don't make the rules for people who pay their bills
right away. Too few of them.

That's actually not true. Only a little over half have carried a CC balance in
the past year.

But your statistical sample period is way to small to catch the period
not too long ago when it was a good thing to not even have a budget.
Just simply buy what you wanted because somehow it would work out.


You listen to the Nightly News too much. The situation has bettered somewhat,
but it wasn't just all of a sudden that almost half of the people paid off
their CCs. Not everyone maxed out on their home equity, either.

It would still be a lot bewtter to know figures for years ago, when
the credit card company rules referred to were made.

On 1/17/2011 7:22 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:33:17 -0500, wrote:

On 1/16/2011 11:42 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:16:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 19:23:11 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:



Just effing INSANE! Even for people like moi who never carry a
balance??? It sounds so soulless and mechanical!

Of course. They don't make the rules for people who pay their bills
right away. Too few of them.

That's actually not true. Only a little over half have carried a CC balance in
the past year.

But your statistical sample period is way to small to catch the period
not too long ago when it was a good thing to not even have a budget.
Just simply buy what you wanted because somehow it would work out.


You listen to the Nightly News too much. The situation has bettered somewhat,
but it wasn't just all of a sudden that almost half of the people paid off
their CCs. Not everyone maxed out on their home equity, either.

There is a nightly news? What time does it come on?

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
SMS wrote:
-snip-

A while back Discover offered a deal I couldn't pass up. 0% no-fee
balance transfers with 0% interest for as long as you had the card and
missed no payments. You did have to make at least two charges of at
least $1 every month which would be subject to interest (later they
dropped that requirement). I took out $30,000 and bought CDs. I have to
make a payment each month but the interest rate is 0%.


Yup- I got that one. I read that letter 3 times, on three different
days because I was sure there was a hitch. I got 20K & set up an
auto-payment from my bank-- and paid my $5/mo AOL account, and a $2/mo
website. Seems like it was a 5yr payback or so-- not bad for
$7/mo, even if I wasn't using those 2 accounts.

If Discover hadn't been such pricks with all the solicitations over
the next month I would have been their friend for life. It took
some major threats and a talk to a 2nd level supervisor to convince
them that I wasn't buying anything else. And never will. [though
I've been tempted by their 5% gas reward card]

Jim


It's easy to deal with the solicitations. Set up a custom ring tone known as
"silent". That took care of the clowns from Citibank, who always call from
the same phone number. They rarely leave messages, so all I see when I look
at the phone is a missed call.

Discover did something interesting a few years ago. I paid off my balance
and didn't use the card for a year. I got a note saying they were raising my
rate from 14% to 19%. No problem. I wasn't using it anyway. Then, I got a
call from some genius who wanted to know if there was anything they could do
to entice me to do business. I asked the women if she could see my rate
history on her screen. She said yes. I asked if she had any further
questions. She didn't. I said goodbye.

Silly people.

On Jan 17, 1:09*pm, wrote:
On Jan 16, 10:21*pm, Higgs Boson wrote:

So is the consensus that I
just should let it sit there, unused, rather than cancel it?

That's a double-edged sword too.

If you don't use the card, they start dropping the credit limit on the
card, which hurts your credit score too.

Sheeeeet! They get me comin' & goin'!!! Damned if cancel, damned if
I keep and don't use. I don't like the bank (B of A), which is one
reason I got a new Visa from another bank. I hate to kiss B of A's
royal *** every so often if only for a $10 purchase to keep THEM from
dropping ME -- if I'm understanding how this works.

Are you SURE they "start dropping the credit limit on the card"? Why
would they do that?? Anybody have real-world experience on this one?

TIA

HB

On 1/17/2011 8:49 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Jan 17, 1:09 pm, wrote:
On Jan 16, 10:21 pm, Higgs wrote:

So is the consensus that I
just should let it sit there, unused, rather than cancel it?

That's a double-edged sword too.

If you don't use the card, they start dropping the credit limit on the
card, which hurts your credit score too.

Sheeeeet! They get me comin'& goin'!!! Damned if cancel, damned if
I keep and don't use. I don't like the bank (B of A), which is one
reason I got a new Visa from another bank. I hate to kiss B of A's
royal *** every so often if only for a $10 purchase to keep THEM from
dropping ME -- if I'm understanding how this works.

Are you SURE they "start dropping the credit limit on the card"? Why
would they do that?? Anybody have real-world experience on this one?

It's never happened to me, and I do play games with the CC companies to
get the incentive then never use the card again. I let them go a year
or two then when I look at my credit report, I decide to cancel two or
three I didn't even remember having.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:35:48 -0500, mm wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:22:13 -0600, "
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:33:17 -0500, George wrote:

On 1/16/2011 11:42 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:16:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 19:23:11 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
wrote:



Just effing INSANE! Even for people like moi who never carry a
balance??? It sounds so soulless and mechanical!

Of course. They don't make the rules for people who pay their bills
right away. Too few of them.

That's actually not true. Only a little over half have carried a CC balance in
the past year.

But your statistical sample period is way to small to catch the period
not too long ago when it was a good thing to not even have a budget.
Just simply buy what you wanted because somehow it would work out.


You listen to the Nightly News too much. The situation has bettered somewhat,
but it wasn't just all of a sudden that almost half of the people paid off
their CCs. Not everyone maxed out on their home equity, either.

It would still be a lot bewtter to know figures for years ago, when
the credit card company rules referred to were made.

You can probably find them on the web.

In article ,
"Nancy Young" wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Nancy Young" wrote:


Here is what determines your credit sco

http://www.myfico.com/crediteducatio...yourscore.aspx



Interesting, but ultimately almost uselessly vague.

I think they're being clear what they're using to come up with
your score.

nancy

I disagree. They're giving the things titles, but they aren't giving you
information about what's good and what's bad. Suppose I said I'd loan
you some money based on:

The year you were born
Your height
How many cars you own
Whether or not your kitchen has an island
How many days per month you paint your toenails

Now, tell me, based on your knowledge of those things, would I loan you
money?

Higgs Boson wrote:

On Jan 17, 1:09*pm, wrote:
-snip-
If you don't use the card, they start dropping the credit limit on the
card, which hurts your credit score too.
-snip-

Are you SURE they "start dropping the credit limit on the card"? Why
would they do that?? Anybody have real-world experience on this one?

Years ago I've had them raise the limit on an unused card. A month
or so ago I had Chase close 2 $3000 cards, and send me a new $10000
card with a $100 reward if I used it. All in the same mail.

I think if a limit was lowered, it wasn't just because the card was
unused.

Jim

There was a time a couple of years ago when banks were trying to
reduce the amount of regulatory capital they had to hold so they were
cutting credit lines where they thought it wouldn't affect their
business much (or any).

On 1/17/2011 1:37 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:

They are betting that people use the card for more and more purchases,
then your payments only go toward the 0% principle. Your purchases add
up and keep charging you 21% interest month after month. I think they
may have passed a law against it.

Yeah, last year I got a letter from Discover telling me that the
requirement for two monthly charges had been dropped which was rather
strange, and I thought that maybe it was illegal for them to require
that. I have been paying about $1.50 a month in interest because of
those charges, but now I'm back to no interest at all. I don't use the
card at all, it's not accepted at many of the places I shop.

On 1/17/2011 5:48 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

Silly people.

At one point I got a solicitation for a Delta Amex with a lot of
miles/points to start out. So I got the card and it had such a
ridiculously low credit limit (not even enough to buy four peak travel
coast to coast r/t tickets for my family) that I called to cancel it.
They did not offer to raise the limit, what they said was that if I
would lower the limit on my Costco Amex (which is around $30K) that they
would raise the limit on the Delta Amex. I declined their offer.

SMS wrote:
On 1/17/2011 1:37 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:

They are betting that people use the card for more and more purchases,
then your payments only go toward the 0% principle. Your purchases add
up and keep charging you 21% interest month after month. I think they
may have passed a law against it.

Yeah, last year I got a letter from Discover telling me that the
requirement for two monthly charges had been dropped which was rather
strange, and I thought that maybe it was illegal for them to require
that. I have been paying about $1.50 a month in interest because of
those charges, but now I'm back to no interest at all. I don't use the
card at all, it's not accepted at many of the places I shop.
Hi,
If one can't pay off the balance every month, what is it? Living beyond
one's means? It is funny world. I just bought a new vehicle and they
don't like cash deal. I had to keep it a secret until deal was
finalized.. Banks don't like us when we pay card balance in full every
month. I am using their money interest free.

On 1/18/2011 10:26 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

If one can't pay off the balance every month, what is it? Living beyond
one's means? It is funny world. I just bought a new vehicle and they
don't like cash deal. I had to keep it a secret until deal was
finalized.

You _never_ want to disclose to a dealer that you're paying cash. In
fact it doesn't hurt to ask all sorts of questions about monthly
payments so it appears as if you're going to finance it. Those that
expect to get a better deal because it's a cash sale are clueless.

I had a car dealer renege on a sale after it became clear that we were
not financing, not buying an extended warranty, not buying fabric guard,
paint protectant, gold package, or any of the ridiculous stuff they
offer (much of which is actually bad for the vehicle). They made up a
cock and bull excuse that the vehicle had been damaged on the lot, then
repaired, but Toyota had not "cleared it for sale." Almost certainly
illegal, but what could I do at that point?

We went back the next day, talked to a different sales person, financed
the car, then paid it off when the first payment came. The dealer was
selling the vehicle for about $1500 below invoice, and while this was
still more than the dealer cost of the vehicle, they were only
interested in selling them to people that would provide some sort of
additional revenue.

"SMS" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2011 5:48 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

Silly people.

At one point I got a solicitation for a Delta Amex with a lot of
miles/points to start out. So I got the card and it had such a
ridiculously low credit limit (not even enough to buy four peak travel
coast to coast r/t tickets for my family) that I called to cancel it. They
did not offer to raise the limit, what they said was that if I would lower
the limit on my Costco Amex (which is around $30K) that they would raise
the limit on the Delta Amex. I declined their offer.


I feel sorry for the phone service people who have to convey some of the
scripted bull**** given to them by higher-ups. Chase raised my rate from
9.9% to 14.9% a year ago. I asked why. The answer was something foolish,
like "Increased cost of doing business". Translation: We're bailing out the
company's sorry ass after years of bad management.

--
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If you don't carry a balance, and don't use up much of your available
credit, then dropping one should not make any significant difference.


I think that's wrong. The way it was once explained to me is that part
of the score is based on how much you owe compared to your total
credit lines. So, cancelling a card that gives you a $5k credit line
will up your percentage owed compared to your total credit. That
assumes, of course, that the OP owes any balance. Of course, you
always owe a balance since you use the cards, even if you pay it all
when due.

On Jan 19, 5:54*am, dgk wrote:
--
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If you don't carry a balance, and don't use up much of your available
credit, then dropping one should not make any significant difference.

I think that's wrong. The way it was once explained to me is that part
of the score is based on how much you owe compared to your total
credit lines. So, cancelling a card that gives you a $5k credit line
will up your percentage owed compared to your total credit. That
assumes, of course, that the OP owes any balance. Of course, you
always owe a balance since you use the cards, even if you pay it all
when due.

The various opinions and experiences on this thread are all very
interesting, But I wonder if there has ever been an objective study
done of exactly WHAT is the attitude of the banks toward cancelling
cards and opening others. The assumption is that user is debt-free,
pays on time, does not exceed limit, and does not have an inordinate
number of cards. Surely SOMEONE or some entity has studied this?

HB

"The Henchman" wrote in message
...


"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Nate Nagel wrote:

I've heard tell that occasionally using a credit card but always keeping
it paid off every month is the best strategy for keeping ones score high.

And I've heard that it's better to have an outstanding balance with a
history of regular payments.

----------------

Outstanding balance means paying interest. At 20% interest per year for
many cards, you think that's wise?

Think carefully about what types of outstanding balances are good and bad.

Well...I pay my entire previous month's balance every month, but because I
use the card for everything, there's always an outstanding balance for the
current month and I never pay any interest.

Higgs Boson wrote:

The various opinions and experiences on this thread are all very
interesting, But I wonder if there has ever been an objective study
done of exactly WHAT is the attitude of the banks toward cancelling
cards and opening others. The assumption is that user is debt-free,
pays on time, does not exceed limit, and does not have an inordinate
number of cards. Surely SOMEONE or some entity has studied this?

HB

Certainly seems like an obvious and interesting question.

I would try asking a realestate agent. They deal with credit and credit
scores to get a mortgage. They should be real aware of what influences
the scores.

Wikipedia maybe?

--
bud--

Don't think anybody has the ability to conduct an objective study,
other than the three credit bureaus that keep that data as
proprietary.

The banks themselves don't do independent analyses of this, they take
the credit score itself, plus your income, asset and debt levels, to
decide on credit.

The credit bureaus say that they look at how much you owe vs. total
credit available- in other words, are your credit cards maxed out, or
do you use them only a little.

So it seems that if you have ten credit cards each with a $5000 limit
and you owe $5000, cancelling one won't make that much (or maybe any)
difference (owing 10% vs. 11%). But if you have only 3 of them and
cancel one, then you've gone from 33% to 50% and that's a big change.

Note that usage includes what's outstanding when they measure it- so
if you use your cards a lot but pay them off every month you will
still show some 'debt.'

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 07:15:23 -0800 (PST), Shaun Eli
wrote:

Don't think anybody has the ability to conduct an objective study,
other than the three credit bureaus that keep that data as
proprietary.

The banks themselves don't do independent analyses of this, they take
the credit score itself, plus your income, asset and debt levels, to
decide on credit.

Certainly they do. You said it yourself, they take your income and assets
into account. They often have real people analyze the risk, too. FICO is
just one input.

The credit bureaus say that they look at how much you owe vs. total
credit available- in other words, are your credit cards maxed out, or
do you use them only a little.

So it seems that if you have ten credit cards each with a $5000 limit
and you owe $5000, cancelling one won't make that much (or maybe any)
difference (owing 10% vs. 11%). But if you have only 3 of them and
cancel one, then you've gone from 33% to 50% and that's a big change.

Note that usage includes what's outstanding when they measure it- so
if you use your cards a lot but pay them off every month you will
still show some 'debt.'

Yes, it's rather surprising that they don't show revolving debt, but they
don't. One can infer it, with reasonable accuracy, fairly easily, though.

I had a boss who would say "Stop using pronouns" to avoid ambiguity.

I meant that banks take the FICO score as one input. They don't
independently analyze what goes into THAT, the FICO score. They use
the credit score and other data. But they don't dissect what goes into
the credit score.

They may have real people look at an application for serious amounts
of money (mortgage, etc.) but credit cards? I have applied on-line and
gotten approval as fast as my screen refreshes. No people there,
probably a formula using credit score and whatever I told them about
income (they don't seem to ask about assets, only whether you have a
bank account, and what type(s) plus what my rent/mortgage payment is).

"Higgs Boson" wrote in message
...


I've heard tell that occasionally using a credit card but always keeping
it paid off every month is the best strategy for keeping ones score
high.

That's exactly what I do. I NEVER carry a balance on any of the three
cards* I have ( four, with the new Visa).
They hate people like us, nyah, nyah, nyah.

The credit card industry term for people who pay off their balance every
month is "deadbeat"--ironic, is it not? If you ever get the chance to watch
the PBS series Frontline episode on the credit card industry, it is
enlightening. Needless to say the CC industry's dream customer is one who
pays only the minimum balance every month, as such a person is a source of
profit forever.

*of which I was proposing to cancel one. So is the consensus that I
just should let it sit there, unused, rather than cancel it?

Sometimes a, credit card company will cancel a card that isn't used for a
long time, I had that happen. They're also instituting fees these days to
substitute for the interest you're not paying. I occasionally carry a
balance for a month or two just to keep them from putting a fee on my cards.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 11:12:53 -0800 (PST), Shaun Eli
wrote:

I had a boss who would say "Stop using pronouns" to avoid ambiguity.

I meant that banks take the FICO score as one input. They don't
independently analyze what goes into THAT, the FICO score. They use
the credit score and other data. But they don't dissect what goes into
the credit score.

If they thought there was a need to reanalyze the FICO score why would they
pay good money to FICO for the score?

They may have real people look at an application for serious amounts
of money (mortgage, etc.) but credit cards?

That depends on the bank, and the customer.

I have applied on-line and
gotten approval as fast as my screen refreshes. No people there,
probably a formula using credit score and whatever I told them about
income (they don't seem to ask about assets, only whether you have a
bank account, and what type(s) plus what my rent/mortgage payment is).

Of course not. A bank may question and rethink a marginal score, particularly
from a good customer, however.

The bottom line is that the FICO score is one of the tools available to banks.
Nothing more.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2011 11:39:52 -0800, "DGDevin" wrote:



"Higgs Boson" wrote in message
...


I've heard tell that occasionally using a credit card but always keeping
it paid off every month is the best strategy for keeping ones score
high.

That's exactly what I do. I NEVER carry a balance on any of the three
cards* I have ( four, with the new Visa).
They hate people like us, nyah, nyah, nyah.

The credit card industry term for people who pay off their balance every
month is "deadbeat"--ironic, is it not? If you ever get the chance to watch
the PBS series Frontline episode on the credit card industry, it is
enlightening. Needless to say the CC industry's dream customer is one who
pays only the minimum balance every month, as such a person is a source of
profit forever.

*of which I was proposing to cancel one. So is the consensus that I
just should let it sit there, unused, rather than cancel it?

Sometimes a, credit card company will cancel a card that isn't used for a
long time, I had that happen. They're also instituting fees these days to
substitute for the interest you're not paying. I occasionally carry a
balance for a month or two just to keep them from putting a fee on my cards.

Just get a card from someone who isn't so greedy. Many are happy to just take
the vig, as long as you put a few hundred on them a month (I should really put
a lot more on mine, though).