Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

"Rebel1" wrote in message
...

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

. . . its 24" width can make the snow load heavy . . .

In snowy parts of Canada (here 10 to 15 ft. total every winter, 4 months)
we distinguish between true shovels (to lift snow) and pushers (to
push it along the ground. They require different technique, according
to snowfall and terrain. Shovels are no more than 18" wide. Actual
market purchases suggest no preference for bent or offset handles.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Dec 28, 3:15*pm, Rebel1 wrote:
Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

I have 2 types of snow shovels:

A heavy duty plastic pusher like this:

http://s7.sears.com/is/image/Sears/0...0&op_sharpen=1

and a metal lifter like the one on the right:

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uima...ohoshovels.jpg

After most snowfalls, I push and throw with the pusher. The lifter is
for when the pushed-piles are too heavy. I still push as much as I can
into piles along the edge of the driveway or walkway and then lift and
throw smaller loads with the lifter.

For the deck, it's all lifter since I have to throw it over the
railing.

I tend to shovel "wide" - a few feet up onto the lawn - and I throw
the snow as far as I can. Not only is it good exercise, but if it
doesn't melt fast enough, you can quickly find yourself having to lift
the snow onto taller and taller piles as the winter goes on. I go
"wide and far" from the beginning of the season so I'll always have a
place to put snow if the big one comes.

BTW...I bought one of these in the fall, so I won't be pushing as much
snow around this year, but I sure can throw it farther.

http://www.ariens.com/products_snow/...s/default.aspx

On 12/28/2010 3:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1


I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from junk
steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons. Now the
strip is usually worn out after one.

" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:




I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.



I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It
really is a back-saver.



One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.







I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.




Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)




Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?



That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.



I wouldn't waste time on a plastic shovel. Well,
maybe at the beach.



You may not believe it, but it works.


--
Tegger

?
"RicodJour" wrote
After a couple of attempts to get used to a snow shovel with an offset
handle I gave up. They are slightly easier on the back (if you don't
know that you can actually bend your knees), but that benefit is more
than offset by awkwardness in use. As someone else noted, you don't
see regular shovels with offset handles as they are not a benefit.


I like the offset shovel and that is my #1 choice if I'm going to shovel.
Regular shovels are for heavier loads of dirt and digging, holes thus the
straight handle. I don't see them a direct comparison in use.

Getting back to the OP's question, you usually need more than one shovel,
just as you need more than one hammer, screwdriver, or kitchen knife. Deep
light snow needs a different tool tan a few inches of heavy wet stuff or a
light coating.

My favorite tool though, is the snow blower. Mine is a cheap single stage,
but it is easier on the back than any shovel. Only ting better is when my
neighbor comes over and he blows the heavy stuff the plow leaves.

?
"Tegger" wrote

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else. I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never
see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Sure, and I've also noticed that people don't dig holes in dirt with snow
shovels. Different tools for different uses.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:15:30 -0500, Rebel1
wrote:

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

I won't buy anything EXCEPT plastic blade snow shovels anymore, and
the "bent" handles really do help the back. I like 24 inch or wider,
but then I only use the shovel when the snowfall is a couple inches at
a time - heavier snowfalls warrant getting the blower out.

Then again, when it gets REALLY sloppy, the blower just plugs up, so
it's out with the shovel. Sometimes I really wish I had a narrower
one, but that's not very often compared to when the wide one is nice.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

On 12/28/2010 3:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1


I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from junk
steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons. Now the
strip is usually worn out after one.
And the plastic ones with no strip last me 3. I won't buy
snow-pushers with a metal edge any more - particularly with my
interlocking stone driveway.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:19:45 -0600, "
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:




I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.



I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the shovel. You
don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It really is a
back-saver.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you never
see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on a spade
to sink them into the ground. Snow shovels aren't used this way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many times
rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel, the more snow
can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?


Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

I had two, one of the crooked shovels as above and a curved reinforced
steel scoop, for pushing (don't want to lift that monster). ...and of
course, a 10HP snow blower. ;-)

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from
junk steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons.
Now the strip is usually worn out after one.

What's the point of a "wear strip" if its not replaceable?



I'm seeing a lot of shovels up here being sold without the metal strip.
After one of mine fell off, I discovered that the shovel actually worked
BETTER than it did with the metal strip. It does wear down (in the manner
of beavers' front teeth), but in the process it self-sharpens, aiding in
scraping packed snow. I now only buy the ones with no metal strip.

I can see a steel strip on an aluminum shovel, but steel on steel makes no
sense. I wouldn't waste time on a plastic shovel. Well, maybe at the beach.


Again, because you've never tried it you say "waste time". I, and many
others in snow country, would never buy anything else.

Don't bother replying.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:




I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.



I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It
really is a back-saver.



One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. They really are better on your back.


I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.




Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)




Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?



That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough?

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. Wasted movement is not efficient.

I wouldn't waste time on a plastic shovel. Well,
maybe at the beach.



You may not believe it, but it works.

I've used them. They suck in all types of snow. It really does take
different shovels for different snow situations, but plastic isn't the answer
for *any* of them.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:55:45 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:19:45 -0600, "
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:




I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.



I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the shovel. You
don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It really is a
back-saver.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you never
see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on a spade
to sink them into the ground. Snow shovels aren't used this way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many times
rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel, the more snow
can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?


Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

I had two, one of the crooked shovels as above and a curved reinforced
steel scoop, for pushing (don't want to lift that monster). ...and of
course, a 10HP snow blower. ;-)

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from
junk steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons.
Now the strip is usually worn out after one.

What's the point of a "wear strip" if its not replaceable?



I'm seeing a lot of shovels up here being sold without the metal strip.
After one of mine fell off, I discovered that the shovel actually worked
BETTER than it did with the metal strip. It does wear down (in the manner
of beavers' front teeth), but in the process it self-sharpens, aiding in
scraping packed snow. I now only buy the ones with no metal strip.

I can see a steel strip on an aluminum shovel, but steel on steel makes no
sense. I wouldn't waste time on a plastic shovel. Well, maybe at the beach.


Again, because you've never tried it you say "waste time". I, and many
others in snow country, would never buy anything else.

Of course, you're wrong as always. I lived in "snow country" all my life.

Don't bother replying.

Then why to you post, stupid?

On 12/28/2010 8:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 28, 7:55 pm, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 4:48 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Dec 28, 4:10 pm, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 3:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from junk
steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons. Now the
strip is usually worn out after one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I drilled out the steel strip and removed almost as soon as I bought
the pusher many years ago.

I can't see how that would work. You need an edge to clean down to the
concrete.

Umm...a plastic shovel has an edge. What do you think is left when you
take the strip off?


A blunt edge? I drilled out the rivets holding the remains of the strip
last year just to see. I tried using it and the next step was to put it
out on trash day. It might work if trying to clear a grassy area etc but
useless if you want to clean down to bare pavement.




All it does is get caught on the driveway and walkway.

The plastic glides a lot easier over all surfaces, including the
frozen grass.


I don't need to clean any unpaved areas so maybe that's why it works for
you.

No, it works for me because it works just fine on asphalt and cement
and well as the lawn.

Is my shovel a little smaller than it was a few years ago? Probably,
but it's never been a problem.

I've looked at the pushers without the steel strip and they're just
not as sturdy as mine. If I ever replace the one I have, I'll look for
a sturdy one with the steel strip and then drill it out and toss it.

wrote:
-snip-

Then again, when it gets REALLY sloppy, the blower just plugs up, so
it's out with the shovel.

That's when I pull out the single stage electric. [an old Toro 12amp]
It will empty mud puddles, and shoots thick-shake consistency snow
20-30'.

Jim

On 12/28/2010 03:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1



I noticed the shovel with the bent handle costs twice as much. Nobody
invented the hydraulic snow shovel yet?



--
LSmFT

I'm trying to think but nothing happens............

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:15:30 -0500, Rebel1 wrote:

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

I have a couple - a 24" plastic scoop thing (rather like the Garant one
on the site you linked to) and an 18" metal shovel. I cleared around
100'x12'x1' with them last week so the propane truck could get through
and my back's not complaining (some idiot put the tank waaaay round the
back of our house :-)

With the scoop one I keep the adjustable handle short so I can grip the
back of the scoop with one hand (with the other hand left on the end of
the handle) and lift - I find it's easier to move snow out with less
strain on the back doing it that way.

I'm indifferent about the curvy handle on that Ames one, I think. I
expect that wedge-shaped blade would **** me off though; snow usually
packs pretty well so it's useful to run the blade a few feet into the
snowfall to pack it tightly before lifting it out of the way, and I could
see a lot of it just falling off the back with a wedge-shaped design.

cheers

Jules

On Dec 29, 6:30*am, George wrote:
On 12/28/2010 8:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Dec 28, 7:55 pm, *wrote:
On 12/28/2010 4:48 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Dec 28, 4:10 pm, * *wrote:
On 12/28/2010 3:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from junk
steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons. Now the
strip is usually worn out after one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I drilled out the steel strip and removed almost as soon as I bought
the pusher many years ago.

I can't see how that would work. You need an edge to clean down to the
concrete.

Umm...a plastic shovel has an edge. What do you think is left when you
take the strip off?

A blunt edge? I drilled out the rivets holding the remains of the strip
last year just to see. I tried using it and the next step was to put it
out on trash day. It might work if trying to clear a grassy area etc but
useless if you want to clean down to bare pavement.

By "you" I assume you mean *you*, not me. Since you've never used my
shovel or seen my driveway after it's been shoveled, you certainly
can't be claiming that *my* shovel is useless.

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from
different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to
wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

All I can do is repeat what I said befo *My* shovel works fine on
all the surfaces I need it to: Asphalt, concrete and lawn. It cleans
down to the bare pavement yet doesn't get caught on rough edges or the
lawn.

You have my condolences that your shovel was "useless" after you
removed the strip, but mine has been extremely use*ful* for many
years.


All it does is get caught on the driveway and walkway.

The plastic glides a lot easier over all surfaces, including the
frozen grass.

I don't need to clean any unpaved areas so maybe that's why it works for
you.

No, it works for me because it works just fine on asphalt and cement
and well as the lawn.

Is my shovel a little smaller than it was a few years ago? Probably,
but it's never been a problem.

I've looked at the pushers without the steel strip and they're just
not as sturdy as mine. If I ever replace the one I have, I'll look for
a sturdy one with the steel strip and then drill it out and toss it.

On Dec 29, 12:32*am, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. *It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. *You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. *It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. *They really are better on your back.



I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. *You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold. The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic. I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow. This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. *If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. People vary.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. *Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough? *

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. *Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least? It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

The second sentence is even more vague. You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

R

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:56:05 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Dec 29, 12:32*am, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. *It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. *You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. *It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. *They really are better on your back.



I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. *You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing.

Shovels are made for more than sand, so it certainly does have a bearing. Snow
shovels are made for one purpose (even though there are different sorts of
snow shovels).

The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold.

Complete nonsense. They work. I wouldn't have one if I could only have one
shovel, but they work for what they're intended for.

The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic.

Swing the arms in an arc. Don't change directions. Even a straight shovel
will twist with a good load of snow. Mostly I did shovel more or less in a
straight line, though. Twisting the back when throwing snow isn't a good
practice.

I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow.

Nonsense.

This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

You're shoveling technique is screwed if you're sliding your hand.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. *If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. People vary.

Smaller is *NOT* more efficient. You may hurt yourself if you take too much
of a bite, but that's a different discussion.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. *Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough? *

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. *Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least?

"you to move the least"; "move" modifies "you".

It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

You like pain. No wonder you like crappy tools.

The second sentence is even more vague. You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

Waste == inefficient. sheesh

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

You'll use less energy with a larger shovel and work faster. Your back can
give out in any case. Assuming no injury, you'll last longer with a more
efficient technique.

On Dec 29, 12:56*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 29, 12:32*am, "





wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. *It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. *You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. *It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. *They really are better on your back.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. *You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. *The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold. *The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic. *I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow. *This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. *The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. *If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. *People vary.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. *Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough? *

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. *Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least? *It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. * *Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. *Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. *A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. *It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

The second sentence is even more vague. *You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. *You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. *Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully
you'll finish shoveling before your back gives out. "

Hmm...I'm was on your side up until you added that line.

If there is a numerical relationship between weight and back problems
then a bigger shovel offers no advantage or it might even be a
detriment.

Just throwing numbers out and obviously using extremes, consider
this...

Perhaps I can toss 100 five-pound shovelfuls or 50 ten-pound
shovelfuls before my back goes out . I tossed the same 500 pounds
either way so I gain no benefit from the bigger shovel.

Now, going to the extremes, let's say I tossed 1,000,000 spoonfuls vs.
1 huge shovelful that cleared the entire driveway. Odds are my brain
will go out before my back would when using the spoon, but my back
would be shot as soon as I tried to lift the huge shovelful.

My point is that a bigger shovel may not be any advantage since I
don't think back issues are "timed" as much as they are related to the
strain put on the muscles. I'd have to lean towards bigger shovels
having more risk than smaller ones.

On Dec 29, 1:17*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:56:05 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:





On Dec 29, 12:32 am, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels..
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. They really are better on your back.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing.

Shovels are made for more than sand, so it certainly does have a bearing. Snow
shovels are made for one purpose (even though there are different sorts of
snow shovels).

The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold.

Complete nonsense. *They work. *I wouldn't have one if I could only have one
shovel, but they work for what they're intended for.

The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic.

Swing the arms in an arc. *Don't change directions. *Even a straight shovel
will twist with a good load of snow. *Mostly I did shovel more or less in a
straight line, though. *Twisting the back when throwing snow isn't a good
practice. *

I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow.

Nonsense.

This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. *The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

You're shoveling technique is screwed if you're sliding your hand.





Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. *People vary.

Smaller is *NOT* more efficient. *You may hurt yourself if you take too much
of a bite, but that's a different discussion.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough?

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least?

"you to move the least"; * "move" modifies "you".

It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. * *Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. *Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. *A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. *It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

You like pain. *No wonder you like crappy tools. *

The second sentence is even more vague. *You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. *You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. *Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

Waste == inefficient. *sheesh

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

You'll use less energy with a larger shovel and work faster. *Your back can
give out in any case. *Assuming no injury, you'll last longer with a more
efficient technique.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"You'll use less energy with a larger shovel and work faster. "

Maybe not..see my response to RicodJour.

It's all relative and a larger shovel could actually be a detriment.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:28:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 29, 12:56*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 29, 12:32*am, "





wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. *It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. *You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. *It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. *They really are better on your back.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. *You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. *The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold. *The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic. *I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow. *This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. *The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. *If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. *People vary.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. *Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough? *

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. *Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least? *It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. * *Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. *Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. *A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. *It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

The second sentence is even more vague. *You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. *You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. *Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully
you'll finish shoveling before your back gives out. "

Hmm...I'm was on your side up until you added that line.

If there is a numerical relationship between weight and back problems
then a bigger shovel offers no advantage or it might even be a
detriment.

Just throwing numbers out and obviously using extremes, consider
this...

Perhaps I can toss 100 five-pound shovelfuls or 50 ten-pound
shovelfuls before my back goes out . I tossed the same 500 pounds
either way so I gain no benefit from the bigger shovel.

Now, going to the extremes, let's say I tossed 1,000,000 spoonfuls vs.
1 huge shovelful that cleared the entire driveway. Odds are my brain
will go out before my back would when using the spoon, but my back
would be shot as soon as I tried to lift the huge shovelful.

My point is that a bigger shovel may not be any advantage since I
don't think back issues are "timed" as much as they are related to the
strain put on the muscles. I'd have to lean towards bigger shovels
having more risk than smaller ones.

Now add in the weight of your back, arms, and the shovel.

On Dec 29, 2:52*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:28:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:





On Dec 29, 12:56 pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 29, 12:32 am, "

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. They really are better on your back.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold. The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic. I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow. This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. People vary.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough?

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least? It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

The second sentence is even more vague. You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully
you'll finish shoveling before your back gives out. "

Hmm...I'm was on your side up until you added that line.

If there is a numerical relationship between weight and back problems
then a bigger shovel offers no advantage or it might even be a
detriment.

Just throwing numbers out and obviously using extremes, consider
this...

Perhaps I can toss 100 five-pound shovelfuls or 50 ten-pound
shovelfuls before my back goes out . I tossed the same 500 pounds
either way so I gain no benefit from the bigger shovel.

Now, going to the extremes, let's say I tossed 1,000,000 spoonfuls vs.
1 huge shovelful that cleared the entire driveway. Odds are my brain
will go out before my back would when using the spoon, but my back
would be shot as soon as I tried to lift the huge shovelful.

My point is that a bigger shovel may not be any advantage since I
don't think back issues are "timed" as much as they are related to the
strain put on the muscles. I'd have to lean towards bigger shovels
having more risk than smaller ones.

Now add in the weight of your back, arms, and the shovel.

OK, let's see, the average head weighs about 8% of the total body
weight, the legs are about 40% and each butt cheek is at least 4 - 5
lbs (depending, of course...)

Now all I need to do is figure out where my front stops and my back
begins and I'll have that figure for you.

Please stand by.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 12:59:21 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 29, 2:52*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:28:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:





On Dec 29, 12:56 pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 29, 12:32 am, "

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. They really are better on your back.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold. The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic. I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow. This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. People vary.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough?

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least? It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

The second sentence is even more vague. You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully
you'll finish shoveling before your back gives out. "

Hmm...I'm was on your side up until you added that line.

If there is a numerical relationship between weight and back problems
then a bigger shovel offers no advantage or it might even be a
detriment.

Just throwing numbers out and obviously using extremes, consider
this...

Perhaps I can toss 100 five-pound shovelfuls or 50 ten-pound
shovelfuls before my back goes out . I tossed the same 500 pounds
either way so I gain no benefit from the bigger shovel.

Now, going to the extremes, let's say I tossed 1,000,000 spoonfuls vs.
1 huge shovelful that cleared the entire driveway. Odds are my brain
will go out before my back would when using the spoon, but my back
would be shot as soon as I tried to lift the huge shovelful.

My point is that a bigger shovel may not be any advantage since I
don't think back issues are "timed" as much as they are related to the
strain put on the muscles. I'd have to lean towards bigger shovels
having more risk than smaller ones.

Now add in the weight of your back, arms, and the shovel.

OK, let's see, the average head weighs about 8% of the total body
weight, the legs are about 40% and each butt cheek is at least 4 - 5
lbs (depending, of course...)

Now all I need to do is figure out where my front stops and my back
begins and I'll have that figure for you.

Please stand by.

The point being that you're only counting part of the energy used.

On 12/29/2010 10:02 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 29, 6:30 am, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 8:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Dec 28, 7:55 pm, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 4:48 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Dec 28, 4:10 pm, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 3:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from junk
steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons. Now the
strip is usually worn out after one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I drilled out the steel strip and removed almost as soon as I bought
the pusher many years ago.

I can't see how that would work. You need an edge to clean down to the
concrete.

Umm...a plastic shovel has an edge. What do you think is left when you
take the strip off?

A blunt edge? I drilled out the rivets holding the remains of the strip
last year just to see. I tried using it and the next step was to put it
out on trash day. It might work if trying to clear a grassy area etc but
useless if you want to clean down to bare pavement.

By "you" I assume you mean *you*, not me. Since you've never used my
shovel or seen my driveway after it's been shoveled, you certainly
can't be claiming that *my* shovel is useless.

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from
different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to
wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

Well clearly I don't have your level of sophistication but I did manage
to drill out 3 rivets...

And did you ever consider your criticism of a basic well proven
commodity item is a little odd?

Most snow shovels have a steel edge. Manufacturers have made millions or
maybe 10s of millions of them because it is a proven design and it
works. Steel and rivets aren't expensive but why would they bother doing
it if it doesn't work? I have honestly never heard anyone complain that
the edge is a flaw and they needed to remove it before they could use
the shovel.


All I can do is repeat what I said befo *My* shovel works fine on
all the surfaces I need it to: Asphalt, concrete and lawn. It cleans
down to the bare pavement yet doesn't get caught on rough edges or the
lawn.

You have my condolences that your shovel was "useless" after you
removed the strip, but mine has been extremely use*ful* for many
years.


All it does is get caught on the driveway and walkway.

The plastic glides a lot easier over all surfaces, including the
frozen grass.

I don't need to clean any unpaved areas so maybe that's why it works for
you.

No, it works for me because it works just fine on asphalt and cement
and well as the lawn.

Is my shovel a little smaller than it was a few years ago? Probably,
but it's never been a problem.

I've looked at the pushers without the steel strip and they're just
not as sturdy as mine. If I ever replace the one I have, I'll look for
a sturdy one with the steel strip and then drill it out and toss it.

On Dec 29, 6:32*pm, George wrote:
On 12/29/2010 10:02 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from
different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to
wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

Well clearly I don't have your level of sophistication but I did manage
to drill out 3 rivets...

Your shovel had only three rivets holding on the edge? I don't think
I've ever seen a riveted edge show shovel with fewer than five, and
more is more common.

And did you ever consider your criticism of a basic well proven
commodity item is a little odd?

You mean like questioning the quality of Detroit iron from the late
60's and early 70's? Or Thompson's Water Seal? Both sold just fine,
but they were/are largely crap products.

Most snow shovels have a steel edge. Manufacturers have made millions or
maybe 10s of millions of them because it is a proven design and it
works. Steel and rivets aren't expensive but why would they bother doing
it if it doesn't work? I have honestly never heard anyone complain that
the edge is a flaw and they needed to remove it before they could use
the shovel.

No one is arguing that a good edge is a bad thing. What I have an
issue with is an edge that gets destroyed way before the shovel gives
out. Then you have a hanging edge, so you have to grab a rivet gun,
then another rivet goes, or the edge gets bent and/or burrs. It's bad
edges that I object to, and if you've seen what they're selling in the
stores, most of them have aluminum edges now.

I don't remove the edge until it becomes a lost cause. I was just
using one shovel a little while ago (the shallower one that came
without a metal edge) and was surprised to see that there are molded
ridges and obvious attachment markings for a metal edge - but no edge
was ever attached. I guess they sell the same shovel in two different
versions.

R

On Dec 29, 1:28*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 29, 12:56*pm, RicodJour wrote:

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

Hmm...I'm was on your side up until you added that line.

If there is a numerical relationship between weight and back problems
then a bigger shovel offers no advantage or it might even be a
detriment.

Just throwing numbers out and obviously using extremes, consider
this...

Perhaps I can toss 100 five-pound shovelfuls or 50 ten-pound
shovelfuls before my back goes out . I tossed the same 500 pounds
either way so I gain no benefit from the bigger shovel.

Now, going to the extremes, let's say I tossed 1,000,000 spoonfuls vs.
1 huge shovelful that cleared the entire driveway. Odds are my brain
will go out before my back would when using the spoon, but my back
would be shot as soon as I tried to lift the huge shovelful.

My point is that a bigger shovel may not be any advantage since I
don't think back issues are "timed" as much as they are related to the
strain put on the muscles. I'd have to lean towards bigger shovels
having more risk than smaller ones.

Ummm, DD...? I was making a funny, or at least trying to. I wasn't
recommending a large shovel. I would generally counsel just the
opposite for a number of reasons.

R

RicodJour wrote in
:



If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold. The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic. I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow. This is due to the offset and is simple
physics. The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.



Bingo. You hit it right on the head, on all counts.

A straight shaft works the best for me, even if I end up needing to bend
over a bit more.

For me, with a single-wide driveway that's only 50-feet long, this is the
best scenario for a snow shovel:
- a 20" plastic blade with raised edges on the sides;
- no metal edge on the blade;
- a pronounced curve on the blade (for a certain technique used with dry,
light snow);
- a straight shaft.


--
Tegger

On Dec 29, 6:32*pm, George wrote:

.... major snippage...

I drilled out the steel strip and removed almost as soon as I bought
the pusher many years ago.

I can't see how that would work. You need an edge to clean down to the
concrete.

Umm...a plastic shovel has an edge. What do you think is left when you
take the strip off?

A blunt edge? I drilled out the rivets holding the remains of the strip
last year just to see. I tried using it and the next step was to put it
out on trash day. It might work if trying to clear a grassy area etc but
useless if you want to clean down to bare pavement.

By "you" I assume you mean *you*, not me. Since you've never used my
shovel or seen my driveway after it's been shoveled, you certainly
can't be claiming that *my* shovel is useless.

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from
different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to
wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

Well clearly I don't have your level of sophistication but I did manage
to drill out 3 rivets...

And did you ever consider your criticism of a basic well proven
commodity item is a little odd?

Most snow shovels have a steel edge. Manufacturers have made millions or
maybe 10s of millions of them because it is a proven design and it
works. Steel and rivets aren't expensive but why would they bother doing
it if it doesn't work? I have honestly never heard anyone complain that
the edge is a flaw and they needed to remove it before they could use
the shovel.



All I can do is repeat what I said befo *My* shovel works fine on
all the surfaces I need it to: Asphalt, concrete and lawn. It cleans
down to the bare pavement yet doesn't get caught on rough edges or the
lawn.

You have my condolences that your shovel was "useless" after you
removed the strip, but mine has been extremely use*ful* for many
years.

All it does is get caught on the driveway and walkway.

The plastic glides a lot easier over all surfaces, including the
frozen grass.

I don't need to clean any unpaved areas so maybe that's why it works for
you.

No, it works for me because it works just fine on asphalt and cement
and well as the lawn.

Is my shovel a little smaller than it was a few years ago? Probably,
but it's never been a problem.

I've looked at the pushers without the steel strip and they're just
not as sturdy as mine. If I ever replace the one I have, I'll look for
a sturdy one with the steel strip and then drill it out and toss it..

Here's what I don't get...

I told you what I did. I told you why I did it. I told you that it
works fine for me. I told you that the same shovel has worked fine for
years.

Why do you keep pushing back?

Are you expecting me to suddenly take it all back and tell you that I
was lying?

Are you expecting me to go find the strip, put it back on and use it
like the other 10's of millions of shovels out there?

Are you expecting me to go out into the garage and throw the shovel
out because, based on your experience, it can't possibly work?

Just what is it that makes you keep coming back to this ng and arguing
with me?

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 23:34:37 -0600, "
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:55:45 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:19:45 -0600, "
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:




I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. It does work.



I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the shovel. You
don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. It really is a
back-saver.

I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you never
see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. You use your feet on a spade
to sink them into the ground. Snow shovels aren't used this way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many times
rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel, the more snow
can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?


Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

I had two, one of the crooked shovels as above and a curved reinforced
steel scoop, for pushing (don't want to lift that monster). ...and of
course, a 10HP snow blower. ;-)

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from
junk steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons.
Now the strip is usually worn out after one.

What's the point of a "wear strip" if its not replaceable?



I'm seeing a lot of shovels up here being sold without the metal strip.
After one of mine fell off, I discovered that the shovel actually worked
BETTER than it did with the metal strip. It does wear down (in the manner
of beavers' front teeth), but in the process it self-sharpens, aiding in
scraping packed snow. I now only buy the ones with no metal strip.

I can see a steel strip on an aluminum shovel, but steel on steel makes no
sense. I wouldn't waste time on a plastic shovel. Well, maybe at the beach.


Again, because you've never tried it you say "waste time". I, and many
others in snow country, would never buy anything else.

Of course, you're wrong as always. I lived in "snow country" all my life.

Don't bother replying.

Then why to you post, stupid?
anyone else is welcome to reply, but I knew what you were going to
say (and I was right).

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 07:08:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

wrote:
-snip-

Then again, when it gets REALLY sloppy, the blower just plugs up, so
it's out with the shovel.

That's when I pull out the single stage electric. [an old Toro 12amp]
It will empty mud puddles, and shoots thick-shake consistency snow
20-30'.

Jim
I piched one of those up this fall too. Works pretty good for a small
accumulation of wet snow on the driveway, but on a 60X120 corner lot
it takes a lot of cord to do the sidewalk, and with basically a
thraight throw pattern it's a lot of work to do a 20X40 driveway and
the "apron" on the boulevard.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 12:17:25 -0600, "
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:56:05 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Dec 29, 12:32Â*am, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. Â*It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. Â*You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. Â*It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. Â*They really are better on your back.



I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. Â*You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing.

Shovels are made for more than sand, so it certainly does have a bearing. Snow
shovels are made for one purpose (even though there are different sorts of
snow shovels).

The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold.

Complete nonsense. They work. I wouldn't have one if I could only have one
shovel, but they work for what they're intended for.

The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic.


Actually, with the weight of the snow and shovel below the pivot
point where your hand is half way down the handle, it is MORE stable
than a straight handle. Pretty hard for the snow load to tip the
shovel when I lift it - unlike a straight shovel.

What I will NEVER own again is either a steel or aluminum snow
"pusher" shovel.
Swing the arms in an arc. Don't change directions. Even a straight shovel
will twist with a good load of snow. Mostly I did shovel more or less in a
straight line, though. Twisting the back when throwing snow isn't a good
practice.

I toss the snow, as another
poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a
much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when
you're tossing the snow.

Nonsense.

This is due to the offset and is simple
physics.
The simple physics works exactly opposite, in my experience, as
explained above.
The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section
of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't
allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when
tossing snow.

You're shoveling technique is screwed if you're sliding your hand.

Otherwise...wait for it... I would have called a spade a spade! (I'm
LOL'ing to myself right now!)

Snow shovels aren't used this
way.

I prefer a smaller, plastic-bladed shovel, lifting smaller loads many
times rather than larger loads fewer times. The lighter the shovel,
the more snow can be moved with the same ultimate effort.

Nonsense. Â*If you believe that, why don't you use a teaspoon?

That's a silly question. Do you eat your soup with a snow shovel? Or
with an eyedropper? There's a "right" size, and a "not-right" size.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. People vary.

Smaller is *NOT* more efficient. You may hurt yourself if you take too much
of a bite, but that's a different discussion.

You just said that a smaller shovel was more efficient. Â*Well, isn't a
teaspoon small enough? Â*

The most efficient is the tool that allows you to move the least and not
overload (injure) the muscles. Â*Wasted movement is not efficient.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways
to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full,
or move your body the least?

"you to move the least"; "move" modifies "you".

It doesn't really matter as your core
concept belief is stuck in the snow. Snow shoveling is a sport -
at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where
there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus
endurance. Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps,
at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance
(stamina) and a more efficient result. A high cadence in cycling is a
perfect analogy. It improves long term efficiency and minimizes
injuries.

You like pain. No wonder you like crappy tools.

The second sentence is even more vague. You have no idea if a "wasted
movement" is efficient on an overall basis. You're starting out with
the presupposition that the movement is wasted. Measure calories and
we can talk overall efficiency.

Waste == inefficient. sheesh

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll
finish shoveling before your back gives out.

You'll use less energy with a larger shovel and work faster. Your back can
give out in any case. Assuming no injury, you'll last longer with a more
efficient technique.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 18:32:50 -0500, George
wrote:

On 12/29/2010 10:02 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 29, 6:30 am, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 8:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Dec 28, 7:55 pm, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 4:48 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Dec 28, 4:10 pm, wrote:
On 12/28/2010 3:15 PM, Rebel1 wrote:

Anyone have experience with the yellow Ames Snowboss shovel shown here?

http://search.gifts.com/find?keyword=snow+shovel

What I like about it is that the left hand has a handle to grip so the
hand doesn't slide up a slippery pole away from the blade toward the top
handle. But I'm not wild about its being made of plastic. And its 24"
width can make the snow load heavy, especially on a warm day when the
snow has melted and is heavy.

What's been your experience with shovels with offset poles (like the
blue Ames Superlight 18" shovel to the right of the yellow one)? The
claim is that they are easier on the back.

Thanks,

Rebel1

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from junk
steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons. Now the
strip is usually worn out after one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I drilled out the steel strip and removed almost as soon as I bought
the pusher many years ago.

I can't see how that would work. You need an edge to clean down to the
concrete.

Umm...a plastic shovel has an edge. What do you think is left when you
take the strip off?

A blunt edge? I drilled out the rivets holding the remains of the strip
last year just to see. I tried using it and the next step was to put it
out on trash day. It might work if trying to clear a grassy area etc but
useless if you want to clean down to bare pavement.

By "you" I assume you mean *you*, not me. Since you've never used my
shovel or seen my driveway after it's been shoveled, you certainly
can't be claiming that *my* shovel is useless.

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from
different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to
wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

Well clearly I don't have your level of sophistication but I did manage
to drill out 3 rivets...

And did you ever consider your criticism of a basic well proven
commodity item is a little odd?

Most snow shovels have a steel edge. Manufacturers have made millions or
maybe 10s of millions of them because it is a proven design and it
works. Steel and rivets aren't expensive but why would they bother doing
it if it doesn't work? I have honestly never heard anyone complain that
the edge is a flaw and they needed to remove it before they could use
the shovel.

The vast majority of plastic shovels up here have no metal edge, and
towards the end of the winter or after a particularly heavy dump, the
ones WITH the edge are the only ones available,

Steel (pusher type snow) shovels are almost non-existant, and the
steel-edged aluminum ones are dissapearing from our local market quite
markedly over the last few years since the plastic ones have gotten so
much better than they used to be.
My aluminum ones seldom lasted 2 full seasons, and aluminum or steel,
they always got the edge bent and torn.

The plastics just keep right on going. They get a little lower after
a couple of years, and the angle where it contacts the sidewalk gets a
bit less optimal. Then I throw them away and get another one. (3 or 4
years)

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:38:52 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 12:17:25 -0600, "
wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:56:05 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Dec 29, 12:32*am, "
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 02:56:44 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:
" wrote in
:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 00:35:35 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

" wrote in
:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:19 -0500, George
wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back.

They save your back by allowing you to lift with your back
straight(er) so you naturally use your legs. *It does work.

I think it depends on the person using it, like anything else.

You may not believe it, but it works for anyone taller than the
shovel. *You don't have to reach down as far to grab the handle. *It
really is a back-saver.

One size does not fit all.

I'm 6'2", and often need to bend over with the straight-shaft shovels.
But I still dislike the cranked ones: they just don't /feel/ right.

You've just not given them a chance. *They really are better on your back.



I hate the
curved/offset handle, and prefer a straight one. Ever notice that you
never see curved/offset handles on regular shovels?

Completely different tool with different action. *You use your feet on
a spade to sink them into the ground.

Um, spades are not the kind of "shovel" I was referring to.

Then WTF were you talking about?

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel
into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate
the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing.

Shovels are made for more than sand, so it certainly does have a bearing. Snow
shovels are made for one purpose (even though there are different sorts of
snow shovels).

The reason I don't
like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more-
shovels is twofold.

Complete nonsense. They work. I wouldn't have one if I could only have one
shovel, but they work for what they're intended for.

The first is that with a bent handle there is a
greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight
ahead of the shovel more problematic.


Actually, with the weight of the snow and shovel below the pivot
point where your hand is half way down the handle, it is MORE stable
than a straight handle. Pretty hard for the snow load to tip the
shovel when I lift it - unlike a straight shovel.

People try to pivot the blade to toss snow to the side. That's bad form and
can get you hurt. It's much harder with the crooked shovel, but shouldn't be
done at all.

What I will NEVER own again is either a steel or aluminum snow
"pusher" shovel.

I have a steel one I liked a lot. It's heavy as hell, but it's not designed
to lift snow. It works great as a pusher. Of course now I only use it to
sweep up sawdust (and a few weeks ago, pine bark mulch). ;-)

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:46:25 -0500, wrote:


The plastics just keep right on going. They get a little lower after
a couple of years, and the angle where it contacts the sidewalk gets a
bit less optimal. Then I throw them away and get another one. (3 or 4
years)

That's what I use. I avoid metal edges. They stop dead when they hit
a sidewalk crack. They edges don't last anyway.
Straight handle, flat blade with just a little side edge.
I push snow to the sidewalk edges, then toss it while facing where I
want it to go straight on, with sort of a flip. Consider that a
separate operation.
Mostly arm movement, never stressed my back.
The big trick is to think about it a bit and don't hurry.
Have fun with it.
I don't like the scoop type. Gets too heavy and the snow compacts in
the scoop. If it's wet snow it sticks, making it harder to flip out.

--Vic

On 30 Dec 2010 01:12:11 GMT, "Lisa BB."
wrote:



I found a product online called the Sno Wovel. I'd be interested to know
if anyone has one and how they like it. Such as if it works with heavy
snow.
Lisa

I saw that. Even watched the video.
http://www.amazon.com/Wovel-W0208-Wh.../dp/B001I7JWTO


Thought it was crazy. Still do.
But it gets good reviews.
Might work for people with particular back problems.
If it wasn't so big - and was cheaper to buy - I wouldn't mind trying
it just for kicks
For now though I'll take a pass.

--Vic

On Dec 29, 8:12*pm, "Lisa BB." wrote:

.... Major Snippage ...

I found a product online called the Sno Wovel. *I'd be interested to know
if anyone has one and how they like it. *Such as if it works with heavy
snow.
Lisa

I watch the video and here are my thoughts:

It doesn't seem like it would work well on narrow driveways where you
are shoveling from side to side. Heck, if you include the operator
it's almost as wide as a single car driveway. There would no room to
maneuver across the width of a narrow area.

It doesn't seem like it would work for short people. Once the handle
was adjusted to be comfortable for pushing, I don't know that you get
enough leverage to throw the snow very far.

I'm not sure what you would do once the piles get high, like the ones
on both sides of the EOD. I can left a shovel and either toss the snow
high or carry it around the pile. I'm not how you handle that with the
Sno Wovel.

Just my thoughts...

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:32:20 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 07:08:04 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

wrote:
-snip-

Then again, when it gets REALLY sloppy, the blower just plugs up, so
it's out with the shovel.

That's when I pull out the single stage electric. [an old Toro 12amp]
It will empty mud puddles, and shoots thick-shake consistency snow
20-30'.

Jim
I piched one of those up this fall too. Works pretty good for a small
accumulation of wet snow on the driveway, but on a 60X120 corner lot
it takes a lot of cord to do the sidewalk, and with basically a
thraight throw pattern it's a lot of work to do a 20X40 driveway and
the "apron" on the boulevard.

That must be what I would call an electric shovel. [and who knows what
it is supposed to be calledg] My electric blower is 18" wide &
has a chute that adjusts from left to right-- or if you want to throw
the snow 40, feet- straight ahead.

Jim

George wrote:

I don't care for the offset versions and can't see how it helps your
back. Also one shovel isn't sufficient. I have one steel blade shovel
for the icy slushy stuff that the lighter shovels won't touch and two
different widths of pushers.

Another thing I noticed is that the steel wear strips are made from
junk steel anymore. Snow shovels used to last for many, many seasons.
Now the strip is usually worn out after one.

Thanks for your observations - I'll certainly bear them in mind.

It's 72 degrees in Houston; it may be awhile.

On 12/29/2010 7:03 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Dec 29, 6:32 pm, wrote:
On 12/29/2010 10:02 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from
different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to
wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

Well clearly I don't have your level of sophistication but I did manage
to drill out 3 rivets...

Your shovel had only three rivets holding on the edge? I don't think
I've ever seen a riveted edge show shovel with fewer than five, and
more is more common.

Only three remained. The steel edge was worn. So as a test I drilled out
the remaining rivets. Next storm I tried it and then put it out for
trash pickup.



And did you ever consider your criticism of a basic well proven
commodity item is a little odd?

You mean like questioning the quality of Detroit iron from the late
60's and early 70's? Or Thompson's Water Seal? Both sold just fine,
but they were/are largely crap products.


But they have nothing to do with the edge on a shovel. Did you ever
remember seeing advertising buy this snow shovel *because* it has a
steel edge?

The steel edge is a good design and it works.

Most snow shovels have a steel edge. Manufacturers have made millions or
maybe 10s of millions of them because it is a proven design and it
works. Steel and rivets aren't expensive but why would they bother doing
it if it doesn't work? I have honestly never heard anyone complain that
the edge is a flaw and they needed to remove it before they could use
the shovel.

No one is arguing that a good edge is a bad thing. What I have an
issue with is an edge that gets destroyed way before the shovel gives
out. Then you have a hanging edge, so you have to grab a rivet gun,
then another rivet goes, or the edge gets bent and/or burrs. It's bad
edges that I object to, and if you've seen what they're selling in the
stores, most of them have aluminum edges now.

Every one I have seen is galvanized steel. I don't doubt there is an
aluminum big box version.


I don't remove the edge until it becomes a lost cause. I was just
using one shovel a little while ago (the shallower one that came
without a metal edge) and was surprised to see that there are molded
ridges and obvious attachment markings for a metal edge - but no edge
was ever attached. I guess they sell the same shovel in two different
versions.

R