I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

On Dec 17, 8:43*am, "RogerT" wrote:
I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? *or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? *Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

Probably at least 50% more cost to do the entire job. If you are
worried about lead paint, there is much more to worry about than just
the windows. Every painted surface in the house probably has lead
paint.

"RogerT" wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.


I've just finished replacing all the windows in my old house. I
bought 'new construction' windows for all of them. One huge
difference is that I did all my own work- so labor was a minor issue--
but here was my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than
getting 'replacement windows'
1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.
2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.
3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than the
old ones. I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.
4. When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

I personally don't think the windows themselves were a lot more work-
but I *did* spread the job over 20 years.g

The downside is that siding and sheetrock need to be accounted for.
The sheetrock was no problem as I was re-doing the rooms anyway. The
siding wasn't an issue for because I've been replacing chalky aluminum
with vinyl as I go along.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

Lead abatement questions should be addressed with the contractor. *If*
you have lead and have to deal with it, you have my sympathy.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

And maybe putting in headers and a kneewall-- my house is balloon
construction & they paid no attention to such things-- just threw a
window in where they wanted it.

They weren't difficult to do - but took more time and needed more
tearing apart of the inside wall.

Jim

"RogerT" wrote in message
How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace
the entire windows, frames and all...


If you ask me, that is the only way to do it. I've found many air
leaks in the surrounding frames. The old frames sometimes are not
"square". And old wood may not be totally sealed and will
expand/shrink with changes in humidity.

This is one thing where it is well worth any extra expense to replace
the entire window.

"RogerT" wrote in message
...

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering
about the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and
all, rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to
the studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I
won't be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Replacing all (i.e. frames as well as windows) is the normal way
window contractors work: i.e. you need not plan to provide any
special instructions to your workforce. Current methods of
installing window frames use technology unavailable in the 1970s
(e.g. expanding foam to fill voids with thermal insulation.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

"RogerT" wrote in message
...
I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering
about the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and
all, rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to
the studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I
won't be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential
sources of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work
these days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe
practices etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows
in the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement
part is roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.


On a frame house where the exterior siding is to be replaced a complete rip
out is the only way I would do it.

A brick or stone home presents more of a challenge but new construction
style is still my preference.

I was moderately surprised to see that posters to date agree with me.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

On Dec 17, 10:36*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"RogerT" wrote:
I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

I've just finished replacing all the windows in my old house. * *I
bought 'new construction' windows for all of them. * *One huge
difference is that I did all my own work- so labor was a minor issue--
but here was my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than
getting 'replacement windows'
1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.
2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.
3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than the
old ones. * I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. * * I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.
4. *When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

I personally don't think the windows themselves were a lot more work-
but I *did* spread the job over 20 years.g

The downside is that siding and sheetrock need to be accounted for.
The sheetrock was no problem as I was re-doing the rooms anyway. *The
siding wasn't an issue for because I've been replacing chalky aluminum
with vinyl as I go along.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

Lead abatement questions should be addressed with the contractor. *If*
you have lead and have to deal with it, you have my sympathy.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

And maybe putting in headers and a kneewall-- my house is balloon
construction & they paid no attention to such things-- just threw a
window in where they wanted it.

They weren't difficult to do - but took more time and needed more
tearing apart of the inside wall. * * *

Jim

"my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than getting
'replacement windows'"

1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.

You didn't have to worry about that. See Item 4

2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.

I'm not sure what you mean by either of those items. Are you referring
to "new" as in "new construction" or "new" as in newer than the old
windows - which would mean that "new" would also include VRW. Please
explain. Are new construction windows more energy efficient than a
properly installed VRW?

3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than
the
old ones. I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.

You didn't have to worry about that. See Item 4

4. When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

You didn't have to worry about that.

If you stay away from the big box stores, VRW are custom made to your
size specifications for the same price as stock big box windows.

I bought all of my VRW from the local Norandex-Reynolds outlet and
paid the same price for custom-sized, higher-spec'd windows as the big
boxes charged for the stock sizes/specs. Comparatively, it was "one
step up" spec-wise from the big box stock windows - for the same
price.

I only had to wait about a week for each order. They placed all orders
on Tuesdays for delivery the following Tuesday, so the max wait would
be 13 days if I ordered on a Wednesday. One window or 10. I think I
did 9, then 3, then 1 and it was all the same process. I've got one 48
x 48 picture window to go this spring.

I also bought my entry door and storm door from the same dealer.
Everything I said about the VRW applies to the doors also.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

As far as I'm concerned, and having worked for 2 reputable window
contractors over the years, the ONLY correct way to replace a window
is "frame out" Tear the old window out to the original rough opening
and replace the entire window. It sure makes a better LOOKING job, and
you get to properly seal and insulate where the window goes into the
framing.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:36:24 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

"RogerT" wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.


I've just finished replacing all the windows in my old house. I
bought 'new construction' windows for all of them. One huge
difference is that I did all my own work- so labor was a minor issue--
but here was my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than
getting 'replacement windows'
1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.
2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.
3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than the
old ones. I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.
4. When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

I personally don't think the windows themselves were a lot more work-
but I *did* spread the job over 20 years.g

The downside is that siding and sheetrock need to be accounted for.
The sheetrock was no problem as I was re-doing the rooms anyway. The
siding wasn't an issue for because I've been replacing chalky aluminum
with vinyl as I go along.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

Lead abatement questions should be addressed with the contractor. *If*
you have lead and have to deal with it, you have my sympathy.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

And maybe putting in headers and a kneewall-- my house is balloon
construction & they paid no attention to such things-- just threw a
window in where they wanted it.

They weren't difficult to do - but took more time and needed more
tearing apart of the inside wall.

Jim
And you need to remember, custom windows can be made to ANY size, so
the original can be replaced with a brand new window that fits the
original hole with no siding or drywall issues. I've even been able to
re-install the original trim in several cases.

I've seen some real butchers install both insert and frame-out windows
- - - - -.

On Dec 17, 4:05*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:36:24 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:





"RogerT" wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

I've just finished replacing all the windows in my old house. * *I
bought 'new construction' windows for all of them. * *One huge
difference is that I did all my own work- so labor was a minor issue--
but here was my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than
getting 'replacement windows'
1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.
2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.
3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than the
old ones. * I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. * * I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.
4. *When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

I personally don't think the windows themselves were a lot more work-
but I *did* spread the job over 20 years.g

The downside is that siding and sheetrock need to be accounted for.
The sheetrock was no problem as I was re-doing the rooms anyway. *The
siding wasn't an issue for because I've been replacing chalky aluminum
with vinyl as I go along.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

Lead abatement questions should be addressed with the contractor. *If*
you have lead and have to deal with it, you have my sympathy.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim..

And maybe putting in headers and a kneewall-- my house is balloon
construction & they paid no attention to such things-- just threw a
window in where they wanted it.

They weren't difficult to do - but took more time and needed more
tearing apart of the inside wall. * * *

Jim

*And you need to remember, custom windows can be made to ANY size, so
the original can be replaced with a brand new window that fits the
original hole with no siding or drywall issues. I've even been able to
re-install the original trim in several cases.

I've seen some real butchers install both insert and frame-out windows
- - - - -.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"I've even been able to re-install the original trim in several
cases."

I did just that with the exterior aluminum and the interior wood trim.

The exterior trim had been installed after the triple track storms so
it had to be removed in order to get the storms off.

Removing the spacers that had been used allowed me to slip the
aluminum trim up against the VRW and use caulk to fill in any gaps.

Every contractor I spoke to told me I would have to have the trim
replaced - at a cost of course - if they installed the windows. It
probably would have been faster for them to bend new trim than it took
me to remove, clean and replace the old, but I had time on my side and
saved a lot of money by doing that.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.


Can't speak to the lead. Might only be in the exterior paint.
But for renting that's a valid concern.
You might take chips/scrapings to a lab that will tell you if it's
lead-based paint.
After that, the folks doing the work can give you estimates of inserts
vs. frame/window. That's how you know the cost difference.
Then you hope the workers have good framing skills.
I had inserts put in all my windows a few years ago.
Brick house.
There were no sizing issues in getting exactly the windows we wanted,
and they look/operate real good.
Frames were all square enough and sills were sound so the guys doing
the work had no problems, and they insulated all voids that were
uncovered.


--Vic

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.


What type of siding do you have? With new construction (NC) windows
you will have to cut/lift/remove some siding back and install the
moisture wrap behind the siding. The exterior moisture wrap barrier is
important and needs to be installed properly. My house is stucco, so
NC windows require cutting the stucco back some inches to tuck the
moisture wrap.

The warranty may void if the window company determines the windows
were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is trained
to factory expectations.

On Dec 17, 5:00*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:





I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? *or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? *Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

What type of siding do you have? *With new construction (NC) windows
you will have to cut/lift/remove some siding back and install the
moisture wrap behind the siding. The exterior moisture wrap barrier is
important and needs to be installed properly. My house is stucco, so
NC windows require cutting the stucco back some inches to tuck the
moisture wrap.

The warranty may void if the window company determines the windows
were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is trained
to factory expectations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The warranty may void if the window company determines the
windows were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is
trained to factory expectations."

You know, I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure that's as big
a factor as some folks claim. Let's look at the numbers.

I saved a boat-load of cash by installing my own windows.

What's the percentage of labor v. material to have a contractor do it?
Let's say it's as low as 50% - and I'm sure it's more in many cases.

Now, what are the odds that I'm going to have a warranty related issue
*and* that the company is going to void the warranty because they
don't like the way I installed them?

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.
That's $2000 for a DIY job, $3000 for a contractor to do them. Even at
a low 50% upcharge, I'd have to have 5 windows go bad *and* be denied
warranty coverage before I'd be out any more money than if the
contractor did them originally.

If a window goes bad and the company balks, I'd simply buy a new one
for $200 and put it in myself. I'd still be $800 ahead for the whole
job, and that's assuming I had to buy a whole new window and not just
a sash or two. 2 windows go bad? I'm still ahead $600.

What are the odds that any competent DIYer is going to screw up more
than half the windows he installs to such an extent that the warranty
is voided?



..

On 12/17/2010 2:23 PM DerbyDad03 spake thus:

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.

Can you get windows that cheap? Decent ones?

I ask because I just installed two new windows, Marvin Integrity
casements. The client paid almost $700 for them (but will be able to
claim a 30% tax credit for them by the end of this year).

These were low-end windows (wood interiors but vinyl exteriors). And I
assume that double-hungs will be more expensive than casements.


--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:23:42 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 17, 5:00*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:





I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? *or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? *Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

What type of siding do you have? *With new construction (NC) windows
you will have to cut/lift/remove some siding back and install the
moisture wrap behind the siding. The exterior moisture wrap barrier is
important and needs to be installed properly. My house is stucco, so
NC windows require cutting the stucco back some inches to tuck the
moisture wrap.

The warranty may void if the window company determines the windows
were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is trained
to factory expectations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The warranty may void if the window company determines the
windows were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is
trained to factory expectations."

You know, I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure that's as big
a factor as some folks claim. Let's look at the numbers.

I saved a boat-load of cash by installing my own windows.

What's the percentage of labor v. material to have a contractor do it?
Let's say it's as low as 50% - and I'm sure it's more in many cases.

Now, what are the odds that I'm going to have a warranty related issue
*and* that the company is going to void the warranty because they
don't like the way I installed them?

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.
That's $2000 for a DIY job, $3000 for a contractor to do them. Even at
a low 50% upcharge, I'd have to have 5 windows go bad *and* be denied
warranty coverage before I'd be out any more money than if the
contractor did them originally.

If a window goes bad and the company balks, I'd simply buy a new one
for $200 and put it in myself. I'd still be $800 ahead for the whole
job, and that's assuming I had to buy a whole new window and not just
a sash or two. 2 windows go bad? I'm still ahead $600.

What are the odds that any competent DIYer is going to screw up more
than half the windows he installs to such an extent that the warranty
is voided?



.
That all makes sense. I would install my own windows/doors and never
worry about a warranty.

The OP will hire the job out. That is the installer he needs to worry
about.

On Dec 17, 2:33*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 17, 10:36*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:





"RogerT" wrote:
I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

I've just finished replacing all the windows in my old house. * *I
bought 'new construction' windows for all of them. * *One huge
difference is that I did all my own work- so labor was a minor issue--
but here was my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than
getting 'replacement windows'
1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.
2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.
3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than the
old ones. * I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. * * I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.
4. *When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

I personally don't think the windows themselves were a lot more work-
but I *did* spread the job over 20 years.g

The downside is that siding and sheetrock need to be accounted for.
The sheetrock was no problem as I was re-doing the rooms anyway. *The
siding wasn't an issue for because I've been replacing chalky aluminum
with vinyl as I go along.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

Lead abatement questions should be addressed with the contractor. *If*
you have lead and have to deal with it, you have my sympathy.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

And maybe putting in headers and a kneewall-- my house is balloon
construction & they paid no attention to such things-- just threw a
window in where they wanted it.

They weren't difficult to do - but took more time and needed more
tearing apart of the inside wall. * * *

Jim

"my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than getting
'replacement windows'"

1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.

You didn't have to worry about that. See Item 4

2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.

I'm not sure what you mean by either of those items. Are you referring
to "new" as in "new construction" or "new" as in newer than the old
windows - which would mean that "new" would also include VRW. Please
explain. Are new construction windows more energy efficient than a
properly installed VRW?

3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than
the
old ones. * I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. * * I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.

You didn't have to worry about that. See Item 4

4. *When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

You didn't have to worry about that.

If you stay away from the big box stores, VRW are custom made to your
size specifications for the same price as stock big box windows.

I bought all of my VRW from the local Norandex-Reynolds outlet and
paid the same price for custom-sized, higher-spec'd windows as the big
boxes charged for the stock sizes/specs. Comparatively, it was "one
step up" spec-wise from the big box stock windows - for the same
price.

I only had to wait about a week for each order. They placed all orders
on Tuesdays for delivery the following Tuesday, so the max wait would
be 13 days if I ordered on a Wednesday. One window or 10. I think I
did 9, then 3, then 1 and it was all the same process. I've got one 48
x 48 picture window to go this spring.

I also bought my entry door and storm door from the same dealer.
Everything I said about the VRW applies to the doors also.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of can't bear the thought of VRW. We want REAL windows. Vinyl-
clad may make sense to keep upkeep down, but IMHO vinyl is not a
structural material. People always talk about 'lifetime' warrantees,
and how their 20 YO VRW look fine, but from hearing moans and wails of
people with plastic windows, I am dubious. A properly installed wood
window, as long as you keep a coat of paint on it (which many people
don't, sadly) can easily last 100 years or more.

--
aem sends, stuck on Google till New Years Eve...

On Dec 17, 7:50*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 12/17/2010 2:23 PM DerbyDad03 spake thus:

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.

Can you get windows that cheap? Decent ones?

I ask because I just installed two new windows, Marvin Integrity
casements. The client paid almost $700 for them (but will be able to
claim a 30% tax credit for them by the end of this year).

These were low-end windows (wood interiors but vinyl exteriors). And I
assume that double-hungs will be more expensive than casements.

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

* *To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
* *who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
* *that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

"Can you get windows that cheap? Decent ones?"

From: http://www.vinyl-replacement-windows...uidelines.html

*** Begin Included Text ***

Vinyl Replacement Window Cost Guidelines

On average, vinyl windows can be one of the lesser expensive types of
windows. The average window size is 30 inch by 48 inch and can range
in average cost from $150.00 to $500.00 per window.

*** End Included Text ***

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:50*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 12/17/2010 2:23 PM DerbyDad03 spake thus:

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.

Can you get windows that cheap? Decent ones?

I ask because I just installed two new windows, Marvin Integrity
casements. The client paid almost $700 for them (but will be able to
claim a 30% tax credit for them by the end of this year).

These were low-end windows (wood interiors but vinyl exteriors). And I
assume that double-hungs will be more expensive than casements.


[...]


"Can you get windows that cheap? Decent ones?"

From: http://www.vinyl-replacement-windows...uidelines.html

*** Begin Included Text ***

Vinyl Replacement Window Cost Guidelines

On average, vinyl windows can be one of the lesser expensive types of
windows. The average window size is 30 inch by 48 inch and can range
in average cost from $150.00 to $500.00 per window.

*** End Included Text ***


"...As a pioneer in the industry, CertainTeed has been building a
strong brand presence in vinyl windows and patio doors for over 25
years. In 2006, CertainTeed was recognized as a leading brand in vinyl
windows by JD Power and Associates and has been one of the most
recognized brands by builders and contractors nationwide for the last
five years."

As a retro-fit, these windows work fine in our harsh desert heat. One
of the easiest to install -- ever, for me.

Oh! http://www.certainteed.com/

Check your location and regional climate requirements...

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:23:42 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 17, 5:00Â*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:





I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. Â*I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. Â*In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. Â*I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. Â*I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? Â*My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? Â*or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Â*Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

What type of siding do you have? Â*With new construction (NC) windows
you will have to cut/lift/remove some siding back and install the
moisture wrap behind the siding. The exterior moisture wrap barrier is
important and needs to be installed properly. My house is stucco, so
NC windows require cutting the stucco back some inches to tuck the
moisture wrap.

The warranty may void if the window company determines the windows
were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is trained
to factory expectations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The warranty may void if the window company determines the
windows were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is
trained to factory expectations."

You know, I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure that's as big
a factor as some folks claim. Let's look at the numbers.

I saved a boat-load of cash by installing my own windows.

What's the percentage of labor v. material to have a contractor do it?
Let's say it's as low as 50% - and I'm sure it's more in many cases.

Now, what are the odds that I'm going to have a warranty related issue
*and* that the company is going to void the warranty because they
don't like the way I installed them?

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.
That's $2000 for a DIY job, $3000 for a contractor to do them. Even at
a low 50% upcharge, I'd have to have 5 windows go bad *and* be denied
warranty coverage before I'd be out any more money than if the
contractor did them originally.

If a window goes bad and the company balks, I'd simply buy a new one
for $200 and put it in myself. I'd still be $800 ahead for the whole
job, and that's assuming I had to buy a whole new window and not just
a sash or two. 2 windows go bad? I'm still ahead $600.

What are the odds that any competent DIYer is going to screw up more
than half the windows he installs to such an extent that the warranty
is voided?



Well, that depends on the DIYer. And the definition of "competent"
I just looked at a house this week that I was interested in - nice
bungalow in a good neighbourhood - looked decent from the street.
There had been a lot of work done on that house - DIY or moonlighter
or contractor, I don't know - but NOTHING had been done right. It
would have given Mike Holmes a couple of good episodes.

Definitely could have screwed up half the window installations and
compared to the other work, they'd have looked good.

.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 16:50:32 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 12/17/2010 2:23 PM DerbyDad03 spake thus:

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.

Can you get windows that cheap? Decent ones?

I ask because I just installed two new windows, Marvin Integrity
casements. The client paid almost $700 for them (but will be able to
claim a 30% tax credit for them by the end of this year).

These were low-end windows (wood interiors but vinyl exteriors). And I
assume that double-hungs will be more expensive than casements.
From my memory, casements are more than double hungs, and more than
side sliders (more, and more expensive, hardware) and solid vinyls are
often less expensive than the "hybrids".

Depends on the size too. Large casement sashes need to be stronger
than double-hung sashes of the same size.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:06:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:23:42 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 17, 5:00Â*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:





I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. Â*I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. Â*In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. Â*I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. Â*I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? Â*My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? Â*or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Â*Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

What type of siding do you have? Â*With new construction (NC) windows
you will have to cut/lift/remove some siding back and install the
moisture wrap behind the siding. The exterior moisture wrap barrier is
important and needs to be installed properly. My house is stucco, so
NC windows require cutting the stucco back some inches to tuck the
moisture wrap.

The warranty may void if the window company determines the windows
were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is trained
to factory expectations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The warranty may void if the window company determines the
windows were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is
trained to factory expectations."

You know, I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure that's as big
a factor as some folks claim. Let's look at the numbers.

I saved a boat-load of cash by installing my own windows.

What's the percentage of labor v. material to have a contractor do it?
Let's say it's as low as 50% - and I'm sure it's more in many cases.

Now, what are the odds that I'm going to have a warranty related issue
*and* that the company is going to void the warranty because they
don't like the way I installed them?

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.
That's $2000 for a DIY job, $3000 for a contractor to do them. Even at
a low 50% upcharge, I'd have to have 5 windows go bad *and* be denied
warranty coverage before I'd be out any more money than if the
contractor did them originally.

If a window goes bad and the company balks, I'd simply buy a new one
for $200 and put it in myself. I'd still be $800 ahead for the whole
job, and that's assuming I had to buy a whole new window and not just
a sash or two. 2 windows go bad? I'm still ahead $600.

What are the odds that any competent DIYer is going to screw up more
than half the windows he installs to such an extent that the warranty
is voided?



.
That all makes sense. I would install my own windows/doors and never
worry about a warranty.

The OP will hire the job out. That is the installer he needs to worry
about.
Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:50:49 -0800 (PST), aemeijers
wrote:

On Dec 17, 2:33Â*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 17, 10:36Â*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:





"RogerT" wrote:
I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. Â*I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. Â*In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. Â*I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

I've just finished replacing all the windows in my old house. Â* Â*I
bought 'new construction' windows for all of them. Â* Â*One huge
difference is that I did all my own work- so labor was a minor issue--
but here was my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than
getting 'replacement windows'
1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.
2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.
3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than the
old ones. Â* I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. Â* Â* I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.
4. Â*When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

I personally don't think the windows themselves were a lot more work-
but I *did* spread the job over 20 years.g

The downside is that siding and sheetrock need to be accounted for.
The sheetrock was no problem as I was re-doing the rooms anyway. Â*The
siding wasn't an issue for because I've been replacing chalky aluminum
with vinyl as I go along.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. Â*I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

Lead abatement questions should be addressed with the contractor. *If*
you have lead and have to deal with it, you have my sympathy.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? Â*My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

And maybe putting in headers and a kneewall-- my house is balloon
construction & they paid no attention to such things-- just threw a
window in where they wanted it.

They weren't difficult to do - but took more time and needed more
tearing apart of the inside wall. Â* Â* Â*

Jim

"my reasoning behind replacing the windows rather than getting
'replacement windows'"

1. Don't know if I could get same-size replacements.

You didn't have to worry about that. See Item 4

2. New windows look better, and are more energy efficient.

I'm not sure what you mean by either of those items. Are you referring
to "new" as in "new construction" or "new" as in newer than the old
windows - which would mean that "new" would also include VRW. Please
explain. Are new construction windows more energy efficient than a
properly installed VRW?

3. About 1/2 of the new windows were different sizes- by far- than
the
old ones. Â* I made the north & west side windows smaller- and the
south facing windows larger. Â* Â* I also shrunk the 36x60 windows that
were in a bathroom, a hallway & a closet.

You didn't have to worry about that. See Item 4

4. Â*When I went window shopping- I was able to shop for what I
wanted-- not what would plug into what I had.

You didn't have to worry about that.

If you stay away from the big box stores, VRW are custom made to your
size specifications for the same price as stock big box windows.

I bought all of my VRW from the local Norandex-Reynolds outlet and
paid the same price for custom-sized, higher-spec'd windows as the big
boxes charged for the stock sizes/specs. Comparatively, it was "one
step up" spec-wise from the big box stock windows - for the same
price.

I only had to wait about a week for each order. They placed all orders
on Tuesdays for delivery the following Tuesday, so the max wait would
be 13 days if I ordered on a Wednesday. One window or 10. I think I
did 9, then 3, then 1 and it was all the same process. I've got one 48
x 48 picture window to go this spring.

I also bought my entry door and storm door from the same dealer.
Everything I said about the VRW applies to the doors also.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some of can't bear the thought of VRW. We want REAL windows. Vinyl-
clad may make sense to keep upkeep down, but IMHO vinyl is not a
structural material. People always talk about 'lifetime' warrantees,
and how their 20 YO VRW look fine, but from hearing moans and wails of
people with plastic windows, I am dubious. A properly installed wood
window, as long as you keep a coat of paint on it (which many people
don't, sadly) can easily last 100 years or more.

Sadly, many houses today won't outlast a GOOD wooden window, properly
cared for, or even a top quality vinyl window.
They (vinyl windows) are sure a lot better than the aluminum framed or
sashless windows installed in so many houses in the early
seventies!!!!!

On Dec 17, 10:57*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:23:42 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03



wrote:
On Dec 17, 5:00*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 09:43:41 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. *I am wondering about
the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and all,
rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. *In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to the
studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. *I won't
be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential sources
of lead paint as possible. *I do know that to do that kind of work these
days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe practices
etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows in
the old frames? *My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement part is
roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? *or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? *Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

What type of siding do you have? *With new construction (NC) windows
you will have to cut/lift/remove some siding back and install the
moisture wrap behind the siding. The exterior moisture wrap barrier is
important and needs to be installed properly. My house is stucco, so
NC windows require cutting the stucco back some inches to tuck the
moisture wrap.

The warranty may void if the window company determines the windows
were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is trained
to factory expectations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The warranty may void if the window company determines the
windows were not installed correctly. Best to use an installer the is
trained to factory expectations."

You know, I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure that's as big
a factor as some folks claim. Let's look at the numbers.

I saved a boat-load of cash by installing my own windows.

What's the percentage of labor v. material to have a contractor do it?
Let's say it's as low as 50% - and I'm sure it's more in many cases.

Now, what are the odds that I'm going to have a warranty related issue
*and* that the company is going to void the warranty because they
don't like the way I installed them?

Let's use round numbers and say I paid $200 per window for 10 windows.
That's $2000 for a DIY job, $3000 for a contractor to do them. Even at
a low 50% upcharge, I'd have to have 5 windows go bad *and* be denied
warranty coverage before I'd be out any more money than if the
contractor did them originally.

If a window goes bad and the company balks, I'd simply buy a new one
for $200 and put it in myself. I'd still be $800 ahead for the whole
job, and that's assuming I had to buy a whole new window and not just
a sash or two. 2 windows go bad? I'm still ahead $600.

What are the odds that any competent DIYer is going to screw up more
than half the windows he installs to such an extent that the warranty
is voided?

Well, that depends on the DIYer. And the definition of "competent"
I just looked at a house this week that I was interested in - nice
bungalow in a good neighbourhood - looked decent from the street.
There had been a lot of work done on that house - DIY or moonlighter
or contractor, I don't know - but NOTHING had been done right. It
would have given Mike Holmes a couple of good episodes.

Definitely could have screwed up half the window installations and
compared to the other work, they'd have looked good.



.

Well, that depends on the DIYer. And the definition of
"competent"

True for the first part but not for the second.

There is no definition of "competent" that would allow for half of the
windows to be installed sub-warranty.

OK, maybe half if we're talking 1 out of 2 (we all make mistakes) but
if someone screws up 5 out of 10 windows then they weren't competent
enough to be called competent.

RogerT wrote:

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property
was built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many
potential sources of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do
that kind of work these days the contractors will need to be
certified and use lead safe practices etc.


Can't help you on the windows, but I am curious as to why you would want to
remove sources of lead paint?

Lead poisoning from paint was extremely rare, even back when lead paint was
in common use. The most common method of ingestion was from children eating
the paint chips!

You're on the horns of a dilemma. If you hire an EPA-certified lead
abatement team, you'll pay maybe 50% more for the project, but there may be
no lead involved! On the other hand, if you test for lead - with a view
toward saving the premium - and lead is discovered, you'll have to disclose
that the property is, or once was, contaminated with lead and may present a
hazard to humans and chickens.

In my view, the most economical practice is to paint over whatever's there,
sealing in any problem.

"HeyBub" wrote

Can't help you on the windows, but I am curious as to why you would want
to remove sources of lead paint?

Lead poisoning from paint was extremely rare, even back when lead paint
was in common use. The most common method of ingestion was from children
eating the paint chips!

You're on the horns of a dilemma. If you hire an EPA-certified lead
abatement team, you'll pay maybe 50% more for the project, but there may
be no lead involved! On the other hand, if you test for lead - with a view
toward saving the premium - and lead is discovered, you'll have to
disclose that the property is, or once was, contaminated with lead and may
present a hazard to humans and chickens.

In my view, the most economical practice is to paint over whatever's
there, sealing in any problem.

IMO, if lead is known to exist, best to get rid of it on your own now,
before any testing is done. With the hysteria it causes today, painting
over is not an option and having it reduces the ability to sell the house
later.

I cannot imagine the tedium of removing lead from window panes, especially
if you have 12 over 12.

Thanks everyone for all of the ideas, suggestions, and feedback. I didn't
realize that replacing the entire window, frames and all, is fairly common.
I also found some YouTube videos that show how its done and what would be
involved if I decide to go ahead with the "full frame window replacement"
idea.

I do know that doing full frame window replacements won't solve all of the
possible issues with lead based paint. But part of my thinking is that if I
can eliminate some of the potential sources of lead exposure, that may be
worth doing from a risk management point of view. So, if I am replacing the
windows anyway, maybe going to the extra step and expense of removing all of
the old frames and trim will be worthwhile. It's a one-time cost, so I may
just go ahead and do that.

"RogerT" wrote in message
...
I am planning on replacing all of the windows in a house that I own that is
being completely rehabbed and will then be rented out. I am wondering
about the possibility of replacing the entire windows, frames and trim and
all, rather than just inserting new replacement windows within the existing
frames. In other words, ripping out all of the existing windows down to
the studs and putting in new windows and new inside and outside trim. I
won't be doing the work myself; I will be hiring people to do it.

Part of why I am thinking of doing it that way is that the property was
built long before 1978 and I would like to remove as many potential
sources of lead paint as possible. I do know that to do that kind of work
these days the contractors will need to be certified and use lead safe
practices etc.

How much more difficult or complicated is it to go ahead and replace the
entire windows, frames and all, versus just inserting replacement windows
in the old frames? My guess is that the window rip-out and replacement
part is roughly the same either way, and the additional work in a complete
replacement will mostly just involve buying and installing the new trim.

Is that correct? or, is there more to it that I am not taking into
consideration? Any thoughts or experiences regarding this idea would be
appreciated.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not installed
correctly water will leak into the home.

It is tricky to plumb an 8' door frame with a 6' level. G

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not installed
correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}

It is tricky to plumb an 8' door frame with a 6' level. G

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:36:36 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

Thanks everyone for all of the ideas, suggestions, and feedback. I didn't
realize that replacing the entire window, frames and all, is fairly common.

Happens all the time. Say, replacing a set of casement windows with a
garden window.

pic:

http://www.metronyinsulation.com/userfiles/images/garden_window_5101rt.jpg


I also found some YouTube videos that show how its done and what would be
involved if I decide to go ahead with the "full frame window replacement"
idea.

Get the written install instructions from the window maker and be
safe.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not installed
correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}


Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In my view, the most economical practice is to paint over whatever's
there, sealing in any problem.

IMO, if lead is known to exist, best to get rid of it on your own now,
before any testing is done. With the hysteria it causes today,
painting over is not an option and having it reduces the ability to
sell the house later.


You make a good point, but if you discover lead, no matter what you do, your
ability to sell the house later is reduced. Remember the mantra: "If you
don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question."

The reason is you must disclose the (former) presence of lead.

On Dec 19, 5:34*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In my view, the most economical practice is to paint over whatever's
there, sealing in any problem.

IMO, if lead is known to exist, best to get rid of it on your own now,
before any testing is done. *With the hysteria it causes today,
painting over is not an option and having it reduces the ability to
sell the house later.

You make a good point, but if you discover lead, no matter what you do, your
ability to sell the house later is reduced. Remember the mantra: "If you
don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question."

The reason is you must disclose the (former) presence of lead.

That sounds like "don't ask, dont't tell".

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 08:00:05 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Dec 19, 5:34*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In my view, the most economical practice is to paint over whatever's
there, sealing in any problem.

IMO, if lead is known to exist, best to get rid of it on your own now,
before any testing is done. *With the hysteria it causes today,
painting over is not an option and having it reduces the ability to
sell the house later.

You make a good point, but if you discover lead, no matter what you do, your
ability to sell the house later is reduced. Remember the mantra: "If you
don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question."

The reason is you must disclose the (former) presence of lead.

That sounds like "don't ask, dont't tell".

No, it's not at all. They're asking, you (legally) have to tell. If you
don't, and it can be proven, you're in for a world of hurt. You could get the
house back, trashed, in a decade *and* have to pay the current owner,
big-time.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:49:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not installed
correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}


Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

EVERY pro installer uses spray foam - to install it right.(the spray
foam isn't the be-all and end-all, but is virtually "required" for a
tight installation.) Use the "low expanding foam" only, or it will
warp the window very badly.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:16:40 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:49:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not installed
correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}


Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

EVERY pro installer uses spray foam - to install it right.(the spray
foam isn't the be-all and end-all, but is virtually "required" for a
tight installation.) Use the "low expanding foam" only, or it will
warp the window very badly.

I was half-way joking. The "pro" installer might also use closed
cell backer rod and stuff the window/door jamb cavity with it.

I don't know the R-Value of backer rod vs. spray foam.

On 12/18/2010 9:49 PM Oren spake thus:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some
attention, but not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not
installed correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}

Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

Yabbut ... even Marvin recommends (or at least approves as an option)
sealing with spray foam, right there in their installation instructions:

If desired, apply a 1"-2" thick bead of low expansion foam insulation on
the back side of the nailing fin or brick mould casing. Don't apply too
much as it is possible to bow the jambs.


--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

On 12/18/2010 8:46 PM Oren spake thus:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:36:36 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

I also found some YouTube videos that show how its done and what
would be involved if I decide to go ahead with the "full frame
window replacement" idea.

Get the written install instructions from the window maker and be
safe.

Good suggestion. In fact, look at them *before* you buy the windows. I
got the instructions for the Marvins I installed from their web site,
and would guess that other mfrs. would make them available as well.


--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:08:44 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 12/18/2010 9:49 PM Oren spake thus:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some
attention, but not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not
installed correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}

Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

Yabbut ... even Marvin recommends (or at least approves as an option)
sealing with spray foam, right there in their installation instructions:

If desired, apply a 1"-2" thick bead of low expansion foam insulation on
the back side of the nailing fin or brick mould casing. Don't apply too
much as it is possible to bow the jambs.

I don't like Marvin windows -- just me.

Why does a nailing fin or brick mould casing need expansion foam?

Sounds stupid

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:06:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 13:16:40 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:49:48 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some attention, but
not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not installed
correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}


Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

EVERY pro installer uses spray foam - to install it right.(the spray
foam isn't the be-all and end-all, but is virtually "required" for a
tight installation.) Use the "low expanding foam" only, or it will
warp the window very badly.

I was half-way joking. The "pro" installer might also use closed
cell backer rod and stuff the window/door jamb cavity with it.

I don't know the R-Value of backer rod vs. spray foam.
In most cases the closed cell blocker, if used, is just to keep the
foam in place. (so it doesn't run out all over either the inside wall
or the outside trim) as it expands.

The R value would be pretty close (per inch), but the Backer rod does
not make as sure a seal, and you will likely get more foam in the
joint than you will get backer rod - so the total r value would be
higher

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:22:55 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:08:44 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 12/18/2010 9:49 PM Oren spake thus:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:21:02 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:54:53 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:01:14 -0500, wrote:

Big thing with waranty is plumb and square. Takes some
attention, but not rocket science.

The other thing is exterior moisture barrier / flashing. Not
installed correctly water will leak into the home.

That's what spray foam is for ;}

Spray foam is for rookies. Put the window in right!

Yabbut ... even Marvin recommends (or at least approves as an option)
sealing with spray foam, right there in their installation instructions:

If desired, apply a 1"-2" thick bead of low expansion foam insulation on
the back side of the nailing fin or brick mould casing. Don't apply too
much as it is possible to bow the jambs.

I don't like Marvin windows -- just me.

Why does a nailing fin or brick mould casing need expansion foam?

Sounds stupid
It makes a more sure seal, and it effectively glues the window in
place.

If the window is a VERY accurate fit in the rough opening, a bead og
caulk will do the job just as well, but a fit that close on a retrofit
is more good luck than good planning!!!!!