I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15”dia, 46”high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there’s water/
air in it. Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I’m guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.

Thanks!
Theodore

millinghill wrote:
I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15”dia, 46”high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there’s water/
air in it. Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I’m guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.
....

Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

--

On Sep 23, 12:58*pm, dpb wrote:
millinghill wrote:
I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15”dia, 46”high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there’s water/
air in it. *Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. *I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. *Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I’m guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.

...

Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Usable size of a 32 is probably around 18 or so. If the differential
between the cutoff and cuton is not very much a couple gallons might
be all it takes. Why is it a problem? You use the water, the pump
comes on. You want a bigger reserve before the pump comes on get a
bigger tank.

Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

I'll check the line to the pressure switch (located on the pump).
I don't follow what draining the tank will do. Can you explain?

Usable size of a 32 is probably around 18 or so. *If the differential
between the cutoff and cuton is not very much a couple gallons might
be all it takes. *Why is it a problem? *You use the water, the pump
comes on. *You want a bigger reserve before the pump comes on get a
bigger tank.- Hide quoted text -

I suspect a problem because it sounds very peculiar that withdrawing
only 2gallons will cause a pump cycle. If the usable capacity is
around 18gallons, it sounds weird that I only actively use 10% of
that. That's why I'm concerned.

On Sep 23, 11:39*am, millinghill wrote:
I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15”dia, 46”high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there’s water/
air in it. *Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. *I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. *Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I’m guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.

Thanks!
Theodore

When my pump comes on too quickly or runs a long time before shutting
off after I turn water off at the sink, I usually pump some air in the
bladder. Those things lose air pressure sometimes. When I put air in,
I usually check to see if I'm getting a lot of water blowing out the
pressure valve. If that happens, I drain all the air/water out of the
bladder before bringing the air pressure up to snuff.

David

millinghill wrote:
Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

I'll check the line to the pressure switch (located on the pump).
I don't follow what draining the tank will do. Can you explain?

That's when you need to check pressure and reset it.

If there's a pinhole leak in the bladder, that'll rezero it and the
behavior will be better (for a while) until lose more air volume if it
does have a leak...

--

On 9/23/2010 1:26 PM, millinghill wrote:
Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

I'll check the line to the pressure switch (located on the pump).
I don't follow what draining the tank will do. Can you explain?

You must release all pressure from the tank before setting the air pressure!

In article , millinghill wrote:

I suspect a problem because it sounds very peculiar that withdrawing
only 2gallons will cause a pump cycle. If the usable capacity is
around 18gallons, it sounds weird that I only actively use 10% of
that. That's why I'm concerned.

Note that the pressures measured on your gauge are psig; the relevant
information is the absolute pressures in psia, which are 1 atm = about 15 psi
higher.

So... cut-in of 30psig, cut-out of 50psig = 45psia and 65psia respectively.

Increasing the pressure in an empty tank from 45psia to 65psia means reducing
the volume of air by (65 - 45) / 65 = 31%. 31% of a 32-gallon tank is about
ten gallons.

So you're not getting anywhere near the drawdown you should.

My conclusion is that your tank is waterlogged.

In article , Tony wrote:
On 9/23/2010 1:26 PM, millinghill wrote:
Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

I'll check the line to the pressure switch (located on the pump).
I don't follow what draining the tank will do. Can you explain?

You must release all pressure from the tank before setting the air pressure!

Nonsense. You need to get all the water out, that's all.

In article , millinghill wrote:
Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

I'll check the line to the pressure switch (located on the pump).
I don't follow what draining the tank will do. Can you explain?

It'll get rid of the water that's reduced its effective capacity. When the
tank is at (actually, slightly below) the cut-in pressure, there should be
*no* water in it. That's not the case with your tank.

millinghill wrote:
I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15”dia, 46”high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there’s water/
air in it. Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I’m guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.


It sounds like something could be restricting the flow of water into the tank,
if the bladder is good and properly pressurized.

You did measure the tank pressure with no water left in it?

It sounds like something could be restricting the flow of water into the tank,
if the bladder is good and properly pressurized.

You did measure the tank pressure with no water left in it?-

I measured the tank air pressure with the pump electrical cord
unplugged and the enough water withdrawn to just trigger the low
pressure switch to come on.
I will also try to let all the water out of the tank and see what the
air pressure reads.
Honestly, the tank doesn't SOUND water logged. Knocking on the tank
anywhere above the sweat line makes it ping like a bell. Wouldn't it
thud if waterlogged?

On 9/23/2010 6:54 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
In , wrote:
On 9/23/2010 1:26 PM, millinghill wrote:
Check the small diameter line to the pressure switch...perhaps it's
where the problem is.

Otherwise, sounds like classic case of the waterlogged pressure tank.

32 gal isn't real big, a small change in pressure is a good volume.

I'd drain the tank and reset the pressure and see if the symptoms
improve....I'm betting they will.

I'll check the line to the pressure switch (located on the pump).
I don't follow what draining the tank will do. Can you explain?

You must release all pressure from the tank before setting the air pressure!

Nonsense. You need to get all the water out, that's all.

Yes, I agree. I just worded it wrong.

On 9/23/2010 11:17 PM, millinghill wrote:
It sounds like something could be restricting the flow of water into the tank,
if the bladder is good and properly pressurized.

You did measure the tank pressure with no water left in it?-

I measured the tank air pressure with the pump electrical cord
unplugged and the enough water withdrawn to just trigger the low
pressure switch to come on.
I will also try to let all the water out of the tank and see what the
air pressure reads.
Honestly, the tank doesn't SOUND water logged. Knocking on the tank
anywhere above the sweat line makes it ping like a bell. Wouldn't it
thud if waterlogged?


Possibly, first pressurize it properly and see if that cures the problem.

On Sep 23, 8:17*pm, millinghill wrote:
It sounds like something could be restricting the flow of water into the tank,
if the bladder is good and properly pressurized.

You did measure the tank pressure with no water left in it?-

I measured the tank air pressure with the pump electrical cord
unplugged and the enough water withdrawn to just trigger the low
pressure switch to come on.
I will also try to let all the water out of the tank and see what the
air pressure reads.
Honestly, the tank doesn't SOUND water logged. *Knocking on the tank
anywhere above the sweat line makes it ping like a bell. *Wouldn't it
thud if waterlogged?

I haved never seen a case where the pressure jumped around like that.
Please posst back when you find the problem.

Probably repeating (but adding a bit) to what has been said.

Drain the tank then measure the precharge. I should be 2psi below cut
in OR the same as cut-in depending what outfit makes the
recommendation - 2psi below seems to be the standard though. I think
you said cut-in is 28 and precharge 30. That is too high.

While the tank is empty it won't hurt to pull the small riser pipe to
the pressure switch. I had to ream mine out due to erratic operation.


Harry K

It does sound like there is not enough air in the expansion tank. One
well I worked on, years ago. There was a device with a bit of a
diaphragm. Aparently, it had an air intake valve. Every time the pump
turned on and off, it would inject a tiny bit of air into the
expansion tank. Of course, these fail after a while. And then the tank
gets water filled.

If there is a tire valve at top of the tank, you could pump some air
in, using an air compressor. Might help. I havn't got much experience
with well tank systems.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"millinghill" wrote in message
...
I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15"dia, 46"high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there's water/
air in it. Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I'm guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.

Thanks!
Theodore

I may be mistaken, but I'd expect that draining the tank would be:
1) turn off electricity to the pump
2) open a faucet
3) Inflate till air comes out the faucet
4) Close valve
5) Inflate to just below cut-in pressure
6) disconnect air compressor, screw the cap on the valve stem.
7) turn on the electricty to the pump

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"hibb" wrote in message
...


When my pump comes on too quickly or runs a long time before shutting
off after I turn water off at the sink, I usually pump some air in the
bladder. Those things lose air pressure sometimes. When I put air in,
I usually check to see if I'm getting a lot of water blowing out the
pressure valve. If that happens, I drain all the air/water out of the
bladder before bringing the air pressure up to snuff.

David

On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:17:48 -0700 (PDT), millinghill
wrote Re Well pump comes on after only 2
gallons used???:

I measured the tank air pressure with the pump electrical cord
unplugged and the enough water withdrawn to just trigger the low
pressure switch to come on.

Here's the procedure for checking/fixing a "waterlogged" pressure tank
problem:

Shut power to the pump

Drain water from the tank by opening the water drain at the bottom of
the tank OR the lowest water outlet in the plumbing system. After the
water finishes draining, close the valve.

Use a tire pressure gague to check the pressure of the air bladder in
the tank. It should be about 2 psi ABOVE the low pressure pump turn
on pressure. If it is significantly lower, then you have a
"waterlogged" tank which will cause rapid pump cycling. If the air
presure is too low, use a compressor to add pressure to about 2 psi
about the low pressure pump turn on pressure.

Turn on pump.

If you have to add pressure more than once or twice a year, you need a
new pressure tank.

--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

It does sound like there is not enough air in the expansion tank. One
well I worked on, years ago. There was a device with a bit of a
diaphragm. Aparently, it had an air intake valve. Every time the pump
turned on and off, it would inject a tiny bit of air into the
expansion tank. Of course, these fail after a while. And then the tank
gets water filled.

If there is a tire valve at top of the tank, you could pump some air
in, using an air compressor. Might help. I havn't got much experience
with well tank systems.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"millinghill" wrote in message
...
I measured several times and each time my water pump comes after LESS
than 2gallons are used in the house.

I have:

1hp jet pump
Bladder water tank Amtrol Model CM8003 (32gal, 15"dia, 46"high,
closest similar model specs on their website)
Well water is hard water.

The sweat line on outside of water tank is 1/3 of the way up the tank,
and the upper 2/3 of the tank sounds hollow, so I know there's water/
air in it. Tank specs say air pressure in tank should be 30. I
measured 32 with tire gage, so kinda close. Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50.

I'm guessing maybe the stub to the water tank might be mostly clogged
and that the tank is not acting like the reservoir it should be???
Opinions appreciated.

Thanks!
Theodore

Sounds the check valve is leaking. just replaced ours yesterday.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI
http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/index.php?lng=fr&acc=true

On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 20:17:48 -0700 (PDT), millinghill
wrote Re Well pump comes on after only 2
gallons used???:

I measured the tank air pressure with the pump electrical cord
unplugged and the enough water withdrawn to just trigger the low
pressure switch to come on.

the tank. It should be about 2 psi ABOVE the low pressure pump turn

CORRECTION: the above should read "2 psi BELOW", not "ABOVE"

sorry of the brain-jam.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I'd expect that draining the tank would be:
1) turn off electricity to the pump
2) open a faucet
3) Inflate till air comes out the faucet
4) Close valve
5) Inflate to just below cut-in pressure
6) disconnect air compressor, screw the cap on the valve stem.
7) turn on the electricty to the pump

Unless the bladder is leaking, I wouldn't really expect air to come out the
faucet. I would expect the water to quit flowing.

millinghill wrote:
It sounds like something could be restricting the flow of water into
the tank, if the bladder is good and properly pressurized.

You did measure the tank pressure with no water left in it?-

I measured the tank air pressure with the pump electrical cord
unplugged and the enough water withdrawn to just trigger the low
pressure switch to come on.
I will also try to let all the water out of the tank and see what the
air pressure reads.
Honestly, the tank doesn't SOUND water logged. Knocking on the tank
anywhere above the sweat line makes it ping like a bell. Wouldn't it
thud if waterlogged?

The way your pressure jumps around really makes me suspect the tank pipe
restriction problem. Is your pressure gauge on the tank or the line to the
plumbing? If the pump output goes directly to the guage and plumbing, with a
separate pipe to the tank, a restriction in the pipe to the tank could cause the
pressure rise/drop symptoms you described. Is there a valve on the line to the
tank that might not be fully open?

"Pressure switch turns on
at 28psi, instantly jumps to 40 where it stays for about 10sec,
quickly rises (in less than 5sec) to 58 , then shuts off and instantly
drops to 50."

On Sep 24, 6:14*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I'd expect that draining the tank would be:
1) turn off electricity to the pump
2) open a faucet
3) Inflate till air comes out the faucet
4) Close valve
5) Inflate to just below cut-in pressure
6) disconnect air compressor, screw the cap on the valve stem.
7) turn on the electricty to the pump

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"hibb" wrote in message

...

When my pump comes on too quickly or runs a long time before shutting
off after I turn water off at the sink, I usually pump some air in the
bladder. Those things lose air pressure sometimes. When I put air in,
I usually check to see if I'm getting a lot of water blowing out the
pressure valve. If that happens, I drain all the air/water out of the
bladder before bringing the air pressure up to snuff.

David

If you are getting any water at all blowing out the pressure valve,
the bladder is busted. Harry K

Harry K

The way your pressure jumps around really makes me suspect the tank pipe
restriction problem. Is your pressure gauge on the tank or the line to the
plumbing? If the pump output goes directly to the guage and plumbing, with a
separate pipe to the tank, a restriction in the pipe to the tank could cause the
pressure rise/drop symptoms you described. Is there a valve on the line to the
tank that might not be fully open?


Pressure gage is immediately after pump.
I have a photo of it he
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/a...ghill/pump.jpg

Here's a video of the same pressure gage as the pump turns on, cycles
through, and stops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmI8y-l5aS8

I'm confident that all valves are fully opened.
Any advice or guidance is grealty appreciated!!

millinghill wrote:
The way your pressure jumps around really makes me suspect the tank
pipe restriction problem. Is your pressure gauge on the tank or the
line to the plumbing? If the pump output goes directly to the guage
and plumbing, with a separate pipe to the tank, a restriction in the
pipe to the tank could cause the pressure rise/drop symptoms you
described. Is there a valve on the line to the tank that might not
be fully open?


Pressure gage is immediately after pump.
I have a photo of it he
http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/a...ghill/pump.jpg

Here's a video of the same pressure gage as the pump turns on, cycles
through, and stops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmI8y-l5aS8

I'm confident that all valves are fully opened.
Any advice or guidance is grealty appreciated!!

Is this a new problem? Has something changed? Have you clearly determined that
the tank bladder is not leaking?

It looks like there is another guage over by the tank. If so, does it show the
same pressure changes?

The pressure switch looks like it gets its pressure directly from the pump. If
you connected it to the tank instead, or much closer to the tank, you'd get more
pressure into the tank before the pump switches off.

It also looks like there are smaller fittings between the pump and the tank.
Increasing the diameter of those would help too, I would guess.

At the cottage I drain system in winter & startup in spring. One year
pressure came up to normal pump stopped & then pressure started to drop
right away.
After a little frustration I found my pump has a valve that directions
say open until pump pumping water & then close until flow looks normal?
Well I had closed it all the way.
This was my probem. after opening the valve, pump started to work
properly.
I have no idea what this thing is for but I leave it open all the time &
pump works great.
Bob
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

It does sound like there is not enough air in the expansion tank. One
well I worked on, years ago. There was a device with a bit of a
diaphragm. Aparently, it had an air intake valve. Every time the pump
turned on and off, it would inject a tiny bit of air into the
expansion tank. Of course, these fail after a while. And then the tank
gets water filled.

If there is a tire valve at top of the tank, you could pump some air
in, using an air compressor. Might help. I havn't got much experience
with well tank systems.