On Jul 31, 8:19*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
wrote:
Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the
washer, or because the washer needs the drain line to go up
first before it's connected to a drain pipe because it can't
stop water from siphoning out by itself.

Going up first doesn't stop a siphon from working.

Replace the word "siphoning" with "draining" above.

The high loop is there so that if the sink drain backs up,

I don't have a sink drain. *The dish washer is not competing with a sink
in this case. *The washer is located in a corner of the kitchen away
from the kitchen counter and sink. *The dish washer is not sharing a
common 2" drain pipe with an adjacent sink. *


No **** Sherlock, There was discussion about why the high loop was
called for in dishwasher installations. That was the point. It's
perfectly clear that you not only don't have a sink, but in fact are
connecting the dishwasher drain straight downhill into a sewer pipe
without a trap. I think just about everyone here will tell you:

A - That's a clear code violation

B - It's one code where the reason for it is clear and it makes
perfect sense.




I've explained many times - I've arranged it so that the dish washer
discharge line is fed directly DOWN from the drain pump outlet through
the floor to a dedicated 2" ABS line that runs at a slight down-angle
for 10 feet to a connection on one of my primary 4" vertical sewer pipes
that runs into my concrete basement floor.

If something backs up on that 4" line, then I've got more of a problem
that could ever be solved by having a proper dedicated trap and vent for
the washer.


Sigh... Once again, traps in sewer systems are not there to prevent
your sewer from backing up. They are there to prevent SEWER GASES
FROM ENTERING YOUR HOUSE every day. If traps aren't needed, why the
hell does every sink, washer, toilet, etc have one? You're concerned
that water may be running out of the dishwasher, but not that sewer
gas can be coming back in? Sounds great. Cleaned dishes sitting in
a closed dishwasher, exposed to sewer gas.




But, why all the concern?

Because my washer does not seem to be operating properly - it seems to
need to have water added at times during the various cleaning cycles as
if water is leaving it for some reason.

I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because
there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.


If it's behaving that way, then it could very well be happening. Do
you think every dishwasher uses exactly the same pump out design? No
one here is gonna know how your dishwasher, which you don't even
indicate the make or model is going to behave when you use it in a way
MOST people never would. As others have suggested, you could go to
the manfacturer's website and see if you can find an owners manual.
But even that will probably not answer the question. They will show
how it should be installed, but likely won't tell you what happens if
you do it another way.

But instead of speculating, why don't you just put a high loop in it
temporarily and see if it then works correctly? And regardless, get a
trap and do it right.

FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:

Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer
gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?

Ok, so I guess nobody's gonna answer that.

It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
of the public water supply system.

So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
and spread to adjacent houses?

Wouldn't I need

a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
at high pressure back into my main water supply line
c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

There are lots of examples of this happening. You just might be
drinking your neighbor's sewage or the chemicals he sprayed on
his lawn.

Where did I say that I was on well water? I'm not.

wrote:

Sigh... Once again, traps in sewer systems are not there to
prevent your sewer from backing up. They are there to prevent
SEWER GASES FROM ENTERING YOUR HOUSE every day. If traps aren't
needed, why the hell does every sink, washer, toilet, etc have
one?

I've never argued against the fact that traps are needed and perform an
important function.

Yes, for fixtures like sinks and toilets that would otherwise have a
direct, open-air path to the sewer, the traps prevent an open-air direct
path.

But dishwashers and even clothes washers don't have such an open-air
path to a sewer pipe. They have pumps and maybe even solenoid valve
blocking that path.

You're concerned that water may be running out of the dishwasher,
but not that sewer gas can be coming back in? Sounds great.
Cleaned dishes sitting in a closed dishwasher, exposed to sewer
gas.

When the dishwasher is running and circulating water, then obviously
there can't be a direct open-air path from the inside of the washer to
the sewer pipe, otherwise the water would immediately drain out.

No one here is gonna know how your dishwasher, which you don't
even indicate the make or model

Kenmore portable, purchased fall 1996. I found the operating manual and
installation instructions. The model numbers on the manual don't match
the number on the decal on the washer. There is no mention of
hose-routing concerns in either manual. Probably because it's
physically impossible to route the drain line at a continuous down-angle
from the pump given a "normal" installation.

But even that will probably not answer the question. They will
show how it should be installed, but likely won't tell you what
happens if you do it another way.

Correct.

But instead of speculating, why don't you just put a high loop in
it temporarily and see if it then works correctly?

That I will have to do. I just thought that I wouldn't have been the
only one here who would have run a dishwasher discharge line directly
down through the floor below the washer.

And regardless, get a trap and do it right.

By adding an "up-loop", I am effectively forming a trap inside the
washer that will always contain some water. Or do you dispute that?

Sum Guy wrote:
FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:

Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer
gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?

Ok, so I guess nobody's gonna answer that.

It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
of the public water supply system.

So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
and spread to adjacent houses?

Wouldn't I need

a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
at high pressure back into my main water supply line
c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

There are lots of examples of this happening. You just might be
drinking your neighbor's sewage or the chemicals he sprayed on
his lawn.

Where did I say that I was on well water? I'm not.

Where did I say you waz?

On Aug 1, 9:30*am, Sum Guy wrote:
wrote:
Sigh... * Once again, traps in sewer systems are not there to
prevent your sewer from backing up. * They are there to prevent
SEWER GASES FROM ENTERING YOUR HOUSE every day. * If traps aren't
needed, why the hell does every sink, washer, toilet, etc have
one?

I've never argued against the fact that traps are needed and perform an
important function.


No, you just say you're gonna do it without a trap.




Yes, for fixtures like sinks and toilets that would otherwise have a
direct, open-air path to the sewer, the traps prevent an open-air direct
path.

But dishwashers and even clothes washers don't have such an open-air
path to a sewer pipe. *They have pumps and maybe even solenoid valve
blocking that path.


You have enough knowledge of the design of that pump to know that it
can't let sewer gas through? Does the plumbing code say it's OK to
rely on what you're doing instead of a trap?




You're concerned that water may be running out of the dishwasher,
but not that sewer gas can be coming back in? * Sounds great.
Cleaned dishes sitting in a closed dishwasher, exposed to sewer
gas.

When the dishwasher is running and circulating water, then obviously
there can't be a direct open-air path from the inside of the washer to
the sewer pipe, otherwise the water would immediately drain out.

No one here is gonna know how your dishwasher, which you don't
even indicate the make or model

Kenmore portable, purchased fall 1996. *I found the operating manual and
installation instructions. *The model numbers on the manual don't match
the number on the decal on the washer. *There is no mention of
hose-routing concerns in either manual. *Probably because it's
physically impossible to route the drain line at a continuous down-angle
from the pump given a "normal" installation.

But even that will probably not answer the question. *They will
show how it should be installed, but likely won't tell you what
happens if you do it another way.

Correct.

But instead of speculating, why don't you just put a high loop in
it temporarily and see if it then works correctly?

That I will have to do. *I just thought that I wouldn't have been the
only one here who would have run a dishwasher discharge line directly
down through the floor below the washer.

And regardless, get a trap and do it right.

By adding an "up-loop", I am effectively forming a trap inside the
washer that will always contain some water. *Or do you dispute that?


Yes I dispute that. What you will have isn't a trap. It's an upside
down trap. When the dishwasher is done pumping, water on the sewer
side will run into the sewer. It will likely siphon the rest of the
water from the dishwasher side with it. Or the water left in that
side could run back into the bottom of the dishwasher basin. That
leaves the hose empty.

I can just imagine what other improvisations you have made that are
illegal.

"Sum Guy" wrote in message ...
FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:

Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer
gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?

Ok, so I guess nobody's gonna answer that.

It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
of the public water supply system.

So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
and spread to adjacent houses?

Wouldn't I need

a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
at high pressure back into my main water supply line
c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

Well, if Saturn is behind the moon and the temperature is below 50 degrees
and your roses bloomed and . . . . . .

Backflow preventers are required by code for lawn sprinkler systems, boilers
that use chemicals, pretty much an process that is connected to a municipal
water supply. The fear is that if the town water pressure drops you can
even get a vacuum that willd raw contaminants into the system.

In the case of a dishwasher, the drain would first have to back up into the
wash chamber, (getting past the drain valve) and then past the solenoid
operated valve on the supply line, then sucked into the supply line as there
is no pressure to force it. I'd say it is a rather unlikely scenario.

FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:

Where did I say that I was on well water? I'm not.

Where did I say you waz?

You said:

You just might be drinking your eighbor's sewage
or the chemicals he sprayed on his lawn.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How could I be "drinking the chemicals he sprayed on his lawn" if both
he and myself are served by a municipal water source? Even taking into
account that I don't have a trap on my dish washer drain line?

And you didn't respond to the other comment I made about your last post:

It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
of the public water supply system.

So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
and spread to adjacent houses?

Wouldn't I need

a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
at high pressure back into my main water supply line
c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

Backflow preventers are required by code for lawn sprinkler systems,
boilers that use chemicals, pretty much an process that is connected
to a municipal water supply.

Does that include installing one at your dish washer or clothes washer?

The truth is that even if my (somewhat large city, not town) water
supply pressure fails (which has never happened in my living memory) I
garantee you that when it comes back that they'll tell people to run
their taps for several hours anyways. They'll treat the system as if it
*is* contaminated.

In the case of a dishwasher (...) - I'd say it is a rather
unlikely scenario.

Agreed.

wrote:

By adding an "up-loop", I am effectively forming a trap inside
the washer that will always contain some water. Or do you
dispute that?

Yes I dispute that. What you will have isn't a trap. It's an
upside down trap. When the dishwasher is done pumping, water
on the sewer side will run into the sewer.

And the pump will not likely be able to push ALL the water over the top
of the loop, so when it turns off, the water that was trying to make it
up the rising part of the loop will fall back into the pump and the
drain reservior, as happens with conventional under-counter
installations. That water will form a block, preventing a direct air
path between the inside of the washer and the sewer line.

I say that the pump will not likely be able to push all the water up the
loop because ventually the pump will suck air and it won't be able to
push the air and remaining water up the loop and over the top (the pumps
are probably not air-tight).

Take a hose and try to blow some water up over a short loop and out.
You won't be able to, unless you've got a source of compressed air
behind you.

It will likely siphon the rest of the water from the
dishwasher side with it.

Siphon action won't pull all the water up and over an up-loop. Some
will fall back. Enough to form a trap.

In fact, according to your theory, even conventional traps should siphon
and empty out if that was the case. But they don't.

Or the water left in that side could run back into the bottom
of the dishwasher basin. That leaves the hose empty.

No, the lowest part of the hose wouldn't be empty if the water ran back
downhill into it.

I can just imagine what other improvisations you have made
that are illegal.

You should see my furnace...

If there was a fire and the fire truck hooked up to a hydrant close enough
it could cause a negative pressure and thus suck water out of your pipes
"Sum Guy" wrote in message ...
FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:

Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer
gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?

Ok, so I guess nobody's gonna answer that.

It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
of the public water supply system.

So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
and spread to adjacent houses?

Wouldn't I need

a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
at high pressure back into my main water supply line
c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

There are lots of examples of this happening. You just might be
drinking your neighbor's sewage or the chemicals he sprayed on
his lawn.

Where did I say that I was on well water? I'm not.

"Sum Guy" wrote in message ...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?

Backflow preventers are required by code for lawn sprinkler systems,
boilers that use chemicals, pretty much an process that is connected
to a municipal water supply.

Does that include installing one at your dish washer or clothes washer?

Some towns are trying to do just that. Every home would have one at the
meter. Seems like a rather expensive cure for a non-problem.

I've never heard of anything like it ever happening, but our society wants
to protect us from every possible scenario, not matter how slime the odds of
it happening.

"Sum Guy" wrote in message ...
Pat wrote:

I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump
because there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.

Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your dishwasher
and entering your house 24/7.

Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer gas vs
trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?

May sometimes and may not sometimes. What happens when you turn on a vent
fan sucking air out of the house?

The truth is that even if my (somewhat large city, not town) water
supply pressure fails (which has never happened in my living memory) I
garantee you that when it comes back that they'll tell people to run
their taps for several hours anyways. They'll treat the system as if it
*is* contaminated.


Water systems do fail and loose pressure. When a city makes an announcement
do you suppose every resident hears it?

In article , (Sum Guy) writes:

| I just thought that I wouldn't have been the
| only one here who would have run a dishwasher discharge line directly
| down through the floor below the washer.

As I said, I had a configuration like that for years. When I encountered
a dishwasher that would not work correctly with it, a high loop was not
enough by itself to solve the problem. I believe that if I had inserted
an air admittance valve at the top of the high loop it would have worked,
but it was easier to find a different brand that still supported the
arrangement. That gave me a whole dishwasher life cycle to adjust the
plumbing to the current expectation.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In ,
Pat typed:
But, why all the concern?

Because my washer does not seem to be operating properly -
it seems to need to have water added at times during the
various cleaning cycles as if water is leaving it for some
reason. I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain
pump because there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.

Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your
dishwasher and entering your house 24/7. The dishwasher is
made to vent the air/moisture inside out into your house.

Here's a novel approach: RTFM! It even explains the siphoning action and why
it happens in 99% of the cases.

don &/or Lucille top-poasted:

If there was a fire and the fire truck hooked up to a hydrant close
enough it could ...

Did you have to full-quote me, just to add that ridiculous scenario?

Pat wrote:

Water systems do fail and loose pressure. When a city makes an
announcement do you suppose every resident hears it?

When they've lost water pressure, and they're glued to the (TV, radio,
newspaper, etc), then sure they're going to catch such an announcement.
It will be big news. Some sort of catastrophe would have caused it.

On Aug 1, 12:25*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
wrote:
By adding an "up-loop", I am effectively forming a trap inside
the washer that will always contain some water. *Or do you
dispute that?

Yes I dispute that. What you will have isn't a trap. *It's an
upside down trap. * When the dishwasher is done pumping, water
on the sewer side will run into the sewer.

And the pump will not likely be able to push ALL the water over the top
of the loop, so when it turns off, the water that was trying to make it
up the rising part of the loop will fall back into the pump and the
drain reservior, as happens with conventional under-counter
installations. *That water will form a block, preventing a direct air
path between the inside of the washer and the sewer line.

I say that the pump will not likely be able to push all the water up the
loop because ventually the pump will suck air and it won't be able to
push the air and remaining water up the loop and over the top (the pumps
are probably not air-tight).

Take a hose and try to blow some water up over a short loop and out.
You won't be able to, unless you've got a source of compressed air
behind you.

It will likely siphon the rest of the water from the
dishwasher side with it.

Siphon action won't pull all the water up and over an up-loop. *Some
will fall back. *Enough to form a trap.

In fact, according to your theory, even conventional traps should siphon
and empty out if that was the case. *But they don't.

Or the water left in that side could run back into the bottom
of the dishwasher basin. That leaves the hose empty.

No, the lowest part of the hose wouldn't be empty if the water ran back
downhill into it.

I can just imagine what other improvisations you have made
that are illegal.

You should see my furnace...


Just tell us one thing smart guy. What does the plumbing code say
about what you are doing? What would any home inspector say when he
spotted a dishwasher or washing machine that was tied directly into
the sewer with no trap?

And if you're so smart, and know so much about what can or can't pass
through any dishwasher pumpout system, why are you here asking about
high loops?

wrote:

Just tell us one thing smart guy. What does the plumbing code say
about what you are doing?

Building codes are based on engineering principles.

We are discussing the fluid engineering principles of dishwasher
drainage.

What we theorize about what is needed for the correct and safe operation
of a dishwasher drain system should be (but may not be) described in the
local building code.

As far as I can tell, this is a copy of the building code for my
jurisdiction:

http://www.hastingshighlands.ca/uplo...ode%202007.pdf

It does not specify if a trap or air gap or air break is needed for a
domestic dishwasher.

This thread:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...al-inspection/
20168-dishwasher-directly-into-trap-crawlspace.html

(re-assemble the long line as necessary)

has a post that says this:

-------------
Here is what the NC plumbing code says -

802.1.6 Domestic dishwashing machines.

Domestic dishwashing machines shall discharge indirectly through an air
gap or air break into a standpipe or waste receptor in accordance with
Section 802.2,
--------------

An air gap (or air break) is presumably formed by an up-loop in the
drain line. I believe this is an acknowledgement that such an
arrangement would always lead to some water sitting in the dishwasher
basin and pump, effectively forming it's own trap.

What would any home inspector say when he spotted a dishwasher or
washing machine that was tied directly into the sewer with no
trap?

Again, any appliance that has it's own pump may require that it's
discharge line rise to some level relative to the top of the device
before being connected to a drain pipe or drain stack. I'm not aware
that washing machines need their own trap (if installed remote from a
sink) and I've never installed the pumbing for a washing machine.

And besides, as a home-owner, I don't have to know or follow the code
for things that don't need a permit.

And if you're so smart,

It's not a question of being smart. If you understand that the plumbing
code is trying to enforce a certain engineering principle (that there
should be no direct air connection between the sewer air and household
air) then we can theorize how such a connection does (or doesn't) happen
when considering a given dishwasher drain configuration.

Since I'm NOT smelling sewer gas in my kitchen or in my dishwasher, I
think we can move off this tangent and get back to my original question,
which is:

Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from the drain
pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to make a connection to
a drain line? Do they depend on this arrangement to prevent fill water
from draining unintentionally from the machine?

Sum Guy wrote:
wrote:

Just tell us one thing smart guy. What does the plumbing code say
about what you are doing?

Building codes are based on engineering principles.

We are discussing the fluid engineering principles of dishwasher
drainage.

What we theorize about what is needed for the correct and safe operation
of a dishwasher drain system should be (but may not be) described in the
local building code.

As far as I can tell, this is a copy of the building code for my
jurisdiction:

http://www.hastingshighlands.ca/uplo...ode%202007.pdf

It does not specify if a trap or air gap or air break is needed for a
domestic dishwasher.

This thread:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...al-inspection/
20168-dishwasher-directly-into-trap-crawlspace.html

(re-assemble the long line as necessary)

has a post that says this:

-------------
Here is what the NC plumbing code says -

802.1.6 Domestic dishwashing machines.

Domestic dishwashing machines shall discharge indirectly through an air
gap or air break into a standpipe or waste receptor in accordance with
Section 802.2,
--------------

An air gap (or air break) is presumably formed by an up-loop in the
drain line. I believe this is an acknowledgement that such an
arrangement would always lead to some water sitting in the dishwasher
basin and pump, effectively forming it's own trap.

What would any home inspector say when he spotted a dishwasher or
washing machine that was tied directly into the sewer with no
trap?

Again, any appliance that has it's own pump may require that it's
discharge line rise to some level relative to the top of the device
before being connected to a drain pipe or drain stack. I'm not aware
that washing machines need their own trap (if installed remote from a
sink) and I've never installed the pumbing for a washing machine.

And besides, as a home-owner, I don't have to know or follow the code
for things that don't need a permit.

And if you're so smart,

It's not a question of being smart. If you understand that the plumbing
code is trying to enforce a certain engineering principle (that there
should be no direct air connection between the sewer air and household
air) then we can theorize how such a connection does (or doesn't) happen
when considering a given dishwasher drain configuration.

Since I'm NOT smelling sewer gas in my kitchen or in my dishwasher, I
think we can move off this tangent and get back to my original question,
which is:

Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from the drain
pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to make a connection to
a drain line? Do they depend on this arrangement to prevent fill water
from draining unintentionally from the machine?

I vote yes.

On Aug 2, 7:40*am, Sum Guy wrote:
wrote:
Just tell us one thing smart guy. * What does the plumbing code say
about what you are doing?

Building codes are based on engineering principles.

We are discussing the fluid engineering principles of dishwasher
drainage.

What we theorize about what is needed for the correct and safe operation
of a dishwasher drain system should be (but may not be) described in the
local building code.

As far as I can tell, this is a copy of the building code for my
jurisdiction:

http://www.hastingshighlands.ca/uplo...lding%20Code%2...

It does not specify if a trap or air gap or air break is needed for a
domestic dishwasher.

This thread:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...system-home-in...
20168-dishwasher-directly-into-trap-crawlspace.html

(re-assemble the long line as necessary)

has a post that says this:

-------------
Here is what the NC plumbing code says -

802.1.6 Domestic dishwashing machines.

Domestic dishwashing machines shall discharge indirectly through an air
gap or air break into a standpipe or waste receptor in accordance with
Section 802.2,
--------------

An air gap (or air break) is presumably formed by an up-loop in the
drain line. *I believe this is an acknowledgement that such an
arrangement would always lead to some water sitting in the dishwasher
basin and pump, effectively forming it's own trap.

What would any home inspector say when he spotted a dishwasher or
washing machine that was tied directly into the sewer with no
trap?

Again, any appliance that has it's own pump may require that it's
discharge line rise to some level relative to the top of the device
before being connected to a drain pipe or drain stack. *I'm not aware
that washing machines need their own trap (if installed remote from a
sink) and I've never installed the pumbing for a washing machine.

And besides, as a home-owner, I don't have to know or follow the code
for things that don't need a permit.

And if you're so smart,

It's not a question of being smart. *If you understand that the plumbing
code is trying to enforce a certain engineering principle (that there
should be no direct air connection between the sewer air and household
air) then we can theorize how such a connection does (or doesn't) happen
when considering a given dishwasher drain configuration.

Since I'm NOT smelling sewer gas in my kitchen or in my dishwasher, I
think we can move off this tangent and get back to my original question,
which is:

Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from the drain
pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to make a connection to
a drain line? *Do they depend on this arrangement to prevent fill water
from draining unintentionally from the machine?

==
If you don't set up the dishwasher drain in a similar manner as
washing machines require, then we can assume that you don't care to do
the installation to code specifications and are potentially
endangering your health and that of others in your household.
Stubbornness on your part may result in unexpected circumstances where
the local authority could hold you liable for damages and extract a
monetary penalty.
==

Roy wrote:

Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from
the drain pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to
make a connection to a drain line? Do they depend on this
arrangement to prevent fill water from draining unintentionally
from the machine?

If you don't set up the dishwasher drain in a similar manner as
washing machines require, then we can assume that you don't
care to do the installation to code specifications

Tbat is a *non-answer*.

I want to know if the correct mechanical (hydraulic) operation of a
dishwasher requires a certain way to plumb the discharge line.

You keep wanting to talk about code. **** the code.

The code doesn't speak to the plumbing requirements of the device in
question.

I posted a link to the code of my jurisdiction. To my reading, it
doesn't talk about how to plumb the discharge line of a dishwasher.

So stop pedantically talking about code and put your engineering hat on
and consider the device in question and it's engineering requirements.
If you're incapable or unwilling to do that, then just say so, and this
conversation is over.

Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from the drain
pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to make a connection to
a drain line? Do they depend on this arrangement to prevent fill water
from draining unintentionally from the machine?

No. In a normal installation the drain for the sink is above the water
level in the dishwasher so the machine will not drain in this manner. The
loop negates the need for an air gap. However in your case the loop would
probably help prevent such drainage. Your installation dropping thru the
floor into the basement may well create a strong siphon action preventing
the loop from functioning as it should. An air gap may be required to break
the siphon. A trap and vent is needed in the basement. A vent can be
created using a one way air valve so the vent does not have to extended thru
the roof.

On Aug 2, 4:01*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
Roy wrote:
Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from
the drain pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to
make a connection to a drain line? *Do they depend on this
arrangement to prevent fill water from draining unintentionally
from the machine?

If you don't set up the dishwasher drain in a similar manner as
washing machines require, then we can assume that you don't
care to do the installation to code specifications

Tbat is a *non-answer*.

I want to know if the correct mechanical (hydraulic) operation of a
dishwasher requires a certain way to plumb the discharge line.

You keep wanting to talk about code. ***** the code.

The code doesn't speak to the plumbing requirements of the device in
question.

I posted a link to the code of my jurisdiction. *To my reading, it
doesn't talk about how to plumb the discharge line of a dishwasher.

So stop pedantically talking about code and put your engineering hat on
and consider the device in question and it's engineering requirements.
If you're incapable or unwilling to do that, then just say so, and this
conversation is over.

==
Okay, when I bought this old house there was no provision to drain an
automatic washing machine properly. I drilled a hole through the floor
for a standpipe following the directions from the machine manual for
its height. The black poly standpipe went through the floor and into a
trap which was attached to about a six foot horizontal pipe with a bit
of a drop which attached to the main vertical sewer main using the
proper fittings. All of this was held up by straps which were
attached to floor joists in a number of spots. Of course the vertical
stand pipe was attached to a wall as well with the proper strapping to
prevent it from wobbling around. All connections were roughened and
the proper adhesive used to ensure a tight leak-proof seal.

Since you are using a "portable" dishwasher much like the one I have
here but no longer use...the drain is probably incorporated with the
filling connection, right? This small drain hose could be disassembled
and routed to a similar standpipe with the same setup as I described
for my washer setup.

When your dishwasher drained, it would pump the water down the pipe
which would be as high as the top of your dishwasher (or close to that
height). You would have the protection of the trap in the basement
preventing sewer gas from rising to the dishwasher level and an air
gap in the top of the standpipe as well which would prevent siphoning.
Draining from the bottom as you proposed could easily cause problems
in my estimation.

You would probably need an extension to the present drain hose with a
simple adaptor (any hardware or plumbing shop could supply), as you
wouldn't want it to fall out but it should go into the standpipe for
three or four inches anyway.

I still say, take a rough drawing to a plumbing shop and get their
advice. Most plumbers will give SOME tips without charging for it or
getting annoyed. Some will even come out and give you a free estimate
for the renovation project should you find it too daunting.

Happy adapting...over and out.

===

Ridiculous?

On Aug 2, 6:42*pm, "don &/or Lucille"
wrote:
Ridiculous?

Care to elaborate?
==

After adding an extra 4-foot section of drain hose to form an inverted U
loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
wash-water during wash cycles.

Something else that was happening (before the loop was added) was that
the motor would make a loud squeeling noise at the end of every drain
cycle - probably caused by a complete evacuation of water from the
washer basin. This noise doesn't happen any more, presumably because
the discharge pump can't push ALL the water up and over the loop during
the drain cycle.

So I would conclude that dish washers needs the drain hose to rise to
some level above the level of the discharge outlet in order to prevent
fill or wash water from draining out of the basin during wash cycles
because the discharge line is not really fully sealed off from the tub
basin drain.

This arrangement of having the drain line rise to some level (1 foot? 2
feet?) relative to the bottom of the washer is normally accomplished by
plumbing the line into a nearby sink drain line, which are normally set
high up under the sink. Many people think this is necessary for the
washer drain line to be connected before the sink's own trap, but it's
clear that the washer's drain hose will form it's own trap either in or
slightly below the drain-hose outlet.

But I've found that even that trap is not needed (from a sewer gas POV)
because there isin't enough of an open path between the sewer line and
the inside of the washer compartment to allow for sewer gas to enter the
washer very easily.

"Sum Guy" wrote in message ...
After adding an extra 4-foot section of drain hose to form an inverted U
loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
wash-water during wash cycles.


Thanks for clearing that up

On Aug 11, 7:43*am, Sum Guy wrote:
After adding an extra 4-foot section of drain hose to form an inverted U
loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
wash-water during wash cycles.

Something else that was happening (before the loop was added) was that
the motor would make a loud squeeling noise at the end of every drain
cycle - probably caused by a complete evacuation of water from the
washer basin. *This noise doesn't happen any more, presumably because
the discharge pump can't push ALL the water up and over the loop during
the drain cycle.

So I would conclude that dish washers needs the drain hose to rise to
some level above the level of the discharge outlet in order to prevent
fill or wash water from draining out of the basin during wash cycles
because the discharge line is not really fully sealed off from the tub
basin drain. *

This arrangement of having the drain line rise to some level (1 foot? 2
feet?) relative to the bottom of the washer is normally accomplished by
plumbing the line into a nearby sink drain line, which are normally set
high up under the sink. *Many people think this is necessary for the
washer drain line to be connected before the sink's own trap, but it's
clear that the washer's drain hose will form it's own trap either in or
slightly below the drain-hose outlet.

But I've found that even that trap is not needed (from a sewer gas POV)
because there isin't enough of an open path between the sewer line and
the inside of the washer compartment to allow for sewer gas to enter the
washer very easily.

==
I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra work.
==

On Aug 12, 12:46*am, Roy wrote:
On Aug 11, 7:43*am, Sum Guy wrote:





After adding an extra 4-foot section of drain hose to form an inverted U
loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
wash-water during wash cycles.

Something else that was happening (before the loop was added) was that
the motor would make a loud squeeling noise at the end of every drain
cycle - probably caused by a complete evacuation of water from the
washer basin. *This noise doesn't happen any more, presumably because
the discharge pump can't push ALL the water up and over the loop during
the drain cycle.

So I would conclude that dish washers needs the drain hose to rise to
some level above the level of the discharge outlet in order to prevent
fill or wash water from draining out of the basin during wash cycles
because the discharge line is not really fully sealed off from the tub
basin drain. *

This arrangement of having the drain line rise to some level (1 foot? 2
feet?) relative to the bottom of the washer is normally accomplished by
plumbing the line into a nearby sink drain line, which are normally set
high up under the sink. *Many people think this is necessary for the
washer drain line to be connected before the sink's own trap, but it's
clear that the washer's drain hose will form it's own trap either in or
slightly below the drain-hose outlet.

But I've found that even that trap is not needed (from a sewer gas POV)
because there isin't enough of an open path between the sewer line and
the inside of the washer compartment to allow for sewer gas to enter the
washer very easily.

==
I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra work.
==- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
plumbing code. And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten
the message that the drain line in a normal installation installation
isn't supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. It's
supposed to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the
bottom of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.

On Aug 12, 6:57*am, wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:46*am, Roy wrote:



On Aug 11, 7:43*am, Sum Guy wrote:

After adding an extra 4-foot section of drain hose to form an inverted U
loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
wash-water during wash cycles.

Something else that was happening (before the loop was added) was that
the motor would make a loud squeeling noise at the end of every drain
cycle - probably caused by a complete evacuation of water from the
washer basin. *This noise doesn't happen any more, presumably because
the discharge pump can't push ALL the water up and over the loop during
the drain cycle.

So I would conclude that dish washers needs the drain hose to rise to
some level above the level of the discharge outlet in order to prevent
fill or wash water from draining out of the basin during wash cycles
because the discharge line is not really fully sealed off from the tub
basin drain. *

This arrangement of having the drain line rise to some level (1 foot? 2
feet?) relative to the bottom of the washer is normally accomplished by
plumbing the line into a nearby sink drain line, which are normally set
high up under the sink. *Many people think this is necessary for the
washer drain line to be connected before the sink's own trap, but it's
clear that the washer's drain hose will form it's own trap either in or
slightly below the drain-hose outlet.

But I've found that even that trap is not needed (from a sewer gas POV)
because there isin't enough of an open path between the sewer line and
the inside of the washer compartment to allow for sewer gas to enter the
washer very easily.

==
I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra work.
==- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
plumbing code. * And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten
the message that the drain line in a normal installation installation
isn't supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. *It's
supposed to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the
bottom of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.

==
Yep, he is a stubborn one...I hope he likes dishes splattered with raw
sewage. It can happen.
==

Roy full-quoted:

I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra
work.

Cheap insurance - for what?

What am I insuring when I put in a trap for a dish washer?

Haven't I already said that there are no sewer gasses entering my
dishwasher as-is?

Haven't I already said that the vent-stack going through my roof
presents an ultra-low resistance path for sewer gasses compared to the
pump mechanism of my dish washer?

Or are you too dense to comprehend the physics at work here?

unnecessarily full-quoted:


I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the
drain just below the floor level.

That actually wouldn't have solved the problem of water draining out of
the washer when it wasn't supposed to. A rising loop inside the washer
was needed to solve that problem.

He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
plumbing code.

And you are showing how ignorant you are of understanding basic
hydraulic principles.

A dish washer isin't a sink or a toilet. Maybe you don't understand why
those fixtures need a trap. And you certainly don't understand how a
trap is formed by the washer's drain hose when it's arranged as a simple
rising loop or inverted U.

And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten the message
that the drain line in a normal installation installation isn't
supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. It's supposed
to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the bottom
of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.

And you continue to fail to realize that I do not have a situation where
a nearby sink drain is competing with the dishwasher as far as draining
is concerned.

If I don't want water in my sink to flow into my dishwasher when the
sink is draining, then a high-loop for the dishwasher should prevent
that. But when there IS NO SINK involved, then the high loop would also
not be needed. Except that the washer needs the high loop for ANOTHER
REASON - to prevent wash water from draining out the bottom of the tub
during the wash cycle.

Roy using bad form unncessarily, massively and lazily full-quoted:

Yep, he is a stubborn one...I hope he likes dishes splattered with
raw sewage. It can happen.

I challenge you to explain how.

How sad it is that you think that a simple trap can prevent a sewage
backup into an upstream fixture, or even that that's what a trap is
for. Your knowledge of plumbing hydraulics and physics is pathetic.

On Aug 12, 4:29*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
Roy full-quoted:

I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra
work.

Cheap insurance - for what?

What am I insuring when I put in a trap for a dish washer?

Haven't I already said that there are no sewer gasses entering my
dishwasher as-is?

Haven't I already said that the vent-stack going through my roof
presents an ultra-low resistance path for sewer gasses compared to the
pump mechanism of my dish washer?

Or are you too dense to comprehend the physics at work here?

==
Plug up your vent pipe with an accumulation of ice or snow or a bird's
nest and see where your sewer gas will go. Do sewer gases only go in
one direction? When the sewer gasses get to your drain pipe do they
just rush by and not enter? There is nothing stopping them, right? Why
do you not want to "build to code"? Don't you believe what plumbers
have said about your "amateurish" plumbing job? I excelled in physics,
did you even study it at all?
==

On Aug 12, 6:36*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
unnecessarily full-quoted:

I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the
drain just below the floor level.

That actually wouldn't have solved the problem of water draining out of
the washer when it wasn't supposed to. *A rising loop inside the washer
was needed to solve that problem.

He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
plumbing code.

And you are showing how ignorant you are of understanding basic
hydraulic principles.

Having a degree in engineering, I understand hydraulic principles
quite well. Apparently you don't because you are the one that came
here asking why your dishwasher installation that is in violation of
plumbing code and practice doesn't work.




A dish washer isin't a sink or a toilet. *Maybe you don't understand why
those fixtures need a trap. * And you certainly don't understand how a
trap is formed by the washer's drain hose when it's arranged as a simple
rising loop or inverted U.

You came here asking how the pump out system in your dishwasher works,
without even identifying what make or model it was. Only an imbecile
would think every make from Bosch to Kitchenaid all share the same
design and have had the same pump-out design over the last 20 years.

I understand that a high loop was never intended to serve as a trap.
That's because the "trap" isn't one at all. It's UPSIDE DOWN. You
do understand the concept of gravity, no? Water on the side
connected to the waste system will empty. What happens on the
dishwasher side is anyone's guess unless you fully understand the
design of all dishwashers. You obvioulsy don't even understand the
design of yours, because you came here asking about it. Now you want
us to believe that the dishwasher side of the high loop will function
as an upside down trap. No one here knows what multiple paths there
may or may not be in the pump system of your dishwasher that might
leave the dishwasher side of the high loop empty and allow a path for
sewer gas to enter. Who says the hose stays full of water or where
the water may wind up in the dishwasher once it shuts off? Yes, in
some dishwashers the hose may stay full. Apparently relying on that
warm fuzzy feeling to keep sewer gases out of your dishwasher and
house is enough for you.





*And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten the message
that the drain line in a normal installation installation isn't
supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. *It's supposed
to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the bottom
of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.

And you continue to fail to realize that I do not have a situation where
a nearby sink drain is competing with the dishwasher as far as draining
is concerned.

I and it seems just about everyone else here understands exactly what
you are doing. You are broadly proposing that all dishwashers do not
need a proper trap on the waste system based on pure speculation,
without even knowing the internal plumbing of your own.





If I don't want water in my sink to flow into my dishwasher when the
sink is draining, then a high-loop for the dishwasher should prevent
that. *But when there IS NO SINK involved, then the high loop would also
not be needed. *Except that the washer needs the high loop for ANOTHER
REASON - to prevent wash water from draining out the bottom of the tub
during the wash cycle.

Again, you are clueless about how exactly the plumbing inside your
dishwasher is laid out and whether in fact it can be relied upon to
always form a seal against sewer gases. Why don't you call up you
local plumbing inspector and ask him the simple question of whether or
not a real trap is required when you install a dishwasher or clothes
washer, etc. Everyone else here knows the answer. So stop saying
"It ain't a sink or toilet." Because last time I checked a waste
system trap is ALWAYS used on dishwashers and clothes washers. Are
you just too cheap or too pig-headed to do it right?

On Aug 13, 8:25*am, wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:36*pm, Sum Guy wrote:

unnecessarily full-quoted:

I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the
drain just below the floor level.

That actually wouldn't have solved the problem of water draining out of
the washer when it wasn't supposed to. *A rising loop inside the washer
was needed to solve that problem.

He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
plumbing code.

And you are showing how ignorant you are of understanding basic
hydraulic principles.

Having a degree in engineering, I understand hydraulic principles
quite well. * Apparently you don't because you are the one that came
here asking why your dishwasher installation that is in violation of
plumbing code and practice doesn't work.



A dish washer isin't a sink or a toilet. *Maybe you don't understand why
those fixtures need a trap. * And you certainly don't understand how a
trap is formed by the washer's drain hose when it's arranged as a simple
rising loop or inverted U.

You came here asking how the pump out system in your dishwasher works,
without even identifying what make or model it was. * Only an imbecile
would think every make from Bosch to Kitchenaid all share the same
design and have had the same pump-out design over the last 20 years.

I understand that a high loop was never intended to serve as a trap.
That's because the "trap" isn't one at all. *It's UPSIDE DOWN. * You
do understand the concept of gravity, no? * *Water on the side
connected to the waste system will empty. * What happens on the
dishwasher side is anyone's guess unless you fully understand the
design of all dishwashers. * You obvioulsy don't even understand the
design of yours, because you came here asking about it. * Now you want
us to believe that the dishwasher side of the high loop will function
as an upside down trap. * No one here knows what multiple paths there
may or may not be in the pump system of your dishwasher that might
leave the dishwasher side of the high loop empty and allow a path for
sewer gas to enter. * Who says the hose stays full of water or where
the water may wind up in the dishwasher once it shuts off? * Yes, in
some dishwashers the hose may stay full. *Apparently relying on that
warm fuzzy feeling to keep sewer gases out of your dishwasher and
house is enough for you.



*And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten the message
that the drain line in a normal installation installation isn't
supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. *It's supposed
to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the bottom
of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.

And you continue to fail to realize that I do not have a situation where
a nearby sink drain is competing with the dishwasher as far as draining
is concerned.

I and it seems just about everyone else here understands exactly what
you are doing. *You are broadly proposing that all dishwashers do not
need a proper trap on the waste system based on pure speculation,
without even knowing the internal plumbing of your own.



If I don't want water in my sink to flow into my dishwasher when the
sink is draining, then a high-loop for the dishwasher should prevent
that. *But when there IS NO SINK involved, then the high loop would also
not be needed. *Except that the washer needs the high loop for ANOTHER
REASON - to prevent wash water from draining out the bottom of the tub
during the wash cycle.

Again, you are clueless about how exactly the plumbing inside your
dishwasher is laid out and whether in fact it can be relied upon to
always form a seal against sewer gases. * Why don't you call up you
local plumbing inspector and ask him the simple question of whether or
not a real trap is required when you install a dishwasher or clothes
washer, etc. * Everyone else here knows the answer. * *So stop saying
"It ain't a sink or toilet." * Because last time I checked a waste
system trap is ALWAYS used on dishwashers and clothes washers. * Are
you just too cheap or too pig-headed to do it right?

==
Oh...Oh...Sum Guy has gone silent...wonder if the sewer gas got to
him.
==