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Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing
plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Sum Guy wrote:
I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? How about using more drain hose and putting a big loop in the drain hose so it rises before going thru the hole in the floor. Also might help control sewer gas?? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:03:54 -0400, Sum Guy wrote:
I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? Most dishwashers require the drain hose to loop to a level higher than what the highest possible operating water level. Read your installation manual for your dishwasher. Some may require an air gap. Read your installation manual for your dishwasher. Some have maximum lengths for the drain hose. Read your installation manual for your dishwasher. You will find the answer to all of our questions in your installation manual for your dishwasher. Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could answer by doing a little reading? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Gordon Shumway wrote:
Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could answer by doing a little reading? This is a 14 year-old dish washer. I don't think I have the manual any more. I thought I was asking a question that would apply to all dishwashers. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 30, 6:03*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. *I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? What might happen if the “the existing drain system from the kitchen” gets plugged up. Is the sewage entering from a higher source going to start backing-up into your dishwasher and onto the floor?An air-gap prevents this from happening. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:13:29 -0400, Sum Guy wrote:
Gordon Shumway wrote: Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could answer by doing a little reading? This is a 14 year-old dish washer. I don't think I have the manual any more. I thought I was asking a question that would apply to all dishwashers. Did you go to the manufacturers web site and see if an installation manual was available for download? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
My dishwasher uses gravity drain to the basement washtub. This was a
quick temp fix 14 years ago till we put in a new kitchen which never occured. The dishwasher has been replaced twice over the years. I have a drain loop as high as the top of the dishwasher top to prevent siphoning t works fine |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
"Molly Brown" wrote What might happen if the “the existing drain system from the kitchen” gets plugged up. Is the sewage entering from a higher source going to start backing-up into your dishwasher and onto the floor?An air-gap prevents this from happening. Air gap is code in some places. OTOH, I've not had one in either of my houses, a total of 40+ years and never a problem. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message ... Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could answer by doing a little reading? You do realize you just contradicted yourself. g Why not? I get plenty of really good advice here. I don't take the advice literally but I often get steered in the right direction. Also, the process of writing the question out probably helps me more than the answers. This is a sounding board. The problem you have is always a problem someone here has already been through. Bouncing ideas here and elsewhere is priceless. Have faith in the common man and remember the choice is always up to you and you won't go wrong. If it seems like a stupid idea, it probably is, and if it seems like good advice run with it. :-) |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:48:36 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote: On Jul 30, 6:03*pm, Sum Guy wrote: I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. *I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? What might happen if the “the existing drain system from the kitchen” gets plugged up. Is the sewage entering from a higher source going to start backing-up into your dishwasher and onto the floor?An air-gap prevents this from happening. Does it really? An air gap is meant to break the siphoning action by allowing air to fill what would otherwise be a siphon. But with his suggested design and your suggested clog, it's not a matter of siphoning. The water from above, including toilet sewage, would stop at the clog, then go up the dishwasher hose to the anti-siphon**, then a little will squeeze out the anti-siphon hole and the rest would continue its route to the dishwasher, work its way through the pump blades and end up in the bottom of the dishwasher. **And up any other pipes available also, like the one to the bathtub, the shower, the sinks, if they connect before the clog. The way to avoid this is to not have clogs. I've been here 27 years and never come close to a clog, and I never had a clog anywhere else I've lived either. Because I don't let anything unusual go down the drain. But i"m not saying a conscientious person can't have a clog. I just don't know how it could happen. If it ever does happen, he'll have to run the dishwasher through a couple cycles empty to clean it out. That's a lot easier than cleaning up a dirty overflowed toilet. (but not much harder than cleaning out the bathtub) If the mechanism permits, he can speed it through the washing and rinsing part since it will all be mixed with water already anyhow. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:03:54 -0400, Sum Guy wrote:
But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running Do you mean, While you are washing the dishes, the water will be draining, since it won't require a pump to drain?** So if the water is draining while you're washing, new water, not yet heated by the dishwasher, will be added to replace the water that has drained out, and sometimes the dishwasher may pause if the water level gets too low, until it goes up again. But I sort of think the water can't drain during the wash and rinse spraying cycles, because the pump that handles the draining is redirected to handle the spraying. What about pauses, like the filling stages? Would whatever directs the water to either spray or drain keep it from draining during the fill stages? I guess the answer might be found in hallerb's post, but he has a full heigbt loop. So I"m still curious. If this is what you mean, it's not really siphoning**, which refers to going uphill on its way to going downhill. For example, siphoning from a gas tank requires it to up the hose from the tank to the outside, and then downhill after that. That it can do this is the "mystery of siphoning". But except for the footnote**, you're just talking about going downhill. That's called draining. :-) Even if you're talking about the toilet draining from upstairs getting stopped by a clog and then going up into the dishwasher, I think that's called water finding its own level. I wouldn't call it siphoning. Although it took me a while to realize this. I was also influenced by the anti-siphon thing on the sink. **Or do you mean that there is a trap in a normal dishwasher and if you drain down, it will siphon the water out of the trap. I don't think it's called a trap or built like a trap , but even if not a trap, some water is left inside the dishwasher all the time that the pump doesn't normally expel. There is such water aiui, but it's not needed to stop sewer gases normally, because the normal output of a dishwasher is to the sink drain above the sink trap. So the sink trap stops the sewer gases. Is the drain you plan to connect to, is it above a later trap, or are there no more traps before you get to the sewer? If there are no more traps, yes I think it will drain the water from the dishwasher (whether that is called a trap or not.) and the sewer gasses will come out through the dishwasher. (In the other post, I was only arguing some more about the term siphoning. If you put in a loop, woudl that be sufficient? Doesn't there need to be an anti-siphon device, or indeed it would siphon. IIUC, if you put in a loop, the inside bottom surface of the hose would only have to be as high as the water level when the machine has finished its cycle, or at most the surface water level while it is running, which isn't that much higher, but I think others said it had to be higher yet or at least theirs was higher. - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. I doubt they would, and regardless of whether you still have a problem, I'd be interested in knowing what would happen if the drain goes straight down. Comments? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
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Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Sum Guy wrote:
I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. What happens when you try your configuration? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 30, 9:22*pm, " wrote:
My dishwasher uses gravity drain to the basement washtub. This was a quick temp fix 14 years ago till we put in a new kitchen which never occured. The dishwasher has been replaced twice over the years. I have a drain loop as high as the top of the dishwasher top to prevent siphoning t works fine == Yep, way to go. == |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 8:12*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Sum Guy wrote: I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. *I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. What happens when you try your configuration?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would be first concerned about whether or not there is a trap. From the description, it sounds like it's a direct connection to a sewer pipe. If so, that;s a code violation and could allow sewer gases to enter the dishwasher. If you have a trap with a proper vent system per code, and the end of the dishwasher hose goes into the trap like a washing machine hose would, ie it's not sealed, then I don't think you have any problems. If the sewer backs up, the water will come out where the hose enters the system and not go up into the dishwasher above. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 7:38*am, wrote:
On Jul 31, 8:12*am, "HeyBub" wrote: Sum Guy wrote: I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. *I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. What happens when you try your configuration?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would be first concerned about whether or not there is a trap. *From the description, it sounds like it's a direct connection to a sewer pipe. * If so, that;s a code violation and could allow sewer gases to enter the dishwasher. If you have a trap with a proper vent system per code, and the end of the dishwasher hose goes into the trap like a washing machine hose would, ie it's not sealed, then I don't think you have any problems. If the sewer backs up, the water will come out where the hose enters the system and not go up into the dishwasher above. == If he continues to build it as he described, he will seriously compromise the sanitation of the dishwasher AND of the sewage system. Best he get some expert advice and most likely qualified plumber as well. == |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Roy wrote:
I would be first concerned about whether or not there is a trap. From the description, it sounds like it's a direct connection to a sewer pipe. If so, that's a code violation and could allow sewer gases to enter the dishwasher. You are correct - there is no trap between the dish washer and the sewer line the way I have it right now. Although I've never smelled anything strange in the dish washer, probably because there could always be some water sitting in the pump acting like a barrier preventing a direct airway connection to the sewer line. Or the pump's impeller is enough of a barrier to prevent airflow. If the sewer backs up, the water will come out where the hose enters the system and not go up into the dishwasher above. I'm not afraid of a sewer backup. We have a separate storm-water sewer system that's not tied into our sewer system, and we're sitting on a higher elevation (relatively speaking) compared to other parts of the city. We don't have sump pumps in our basements either. If he continues to build it as he described, he will seriously compromise the sanitation of the dishwasher AND of the sewage system. Hydraulically speaking, I'm not concerned about backflow from the sewer to the dish washer. But I am curious about your concern about comprimising the sanitation of the sewage system. Could you explain that point a little more? Best he get some expert advice and most likely qualified plumber as well. I can't believe that something as simple as whether or not a dishwasher drain hose must always form a loop (inverted trap) wouldn't be more well known if it was common knowledge. For example: http://lgknowledgebase.com/kb/index....y&EntryID=3072 Note that in every diagram, the peak of the hose rises to the highest level as close to the top of the sink as possible. I'm not sure what that do-hickey is in the last diagram - identified as an "air gap" that seems to protrude above the counter top. That can't be a desirable thing to have poking through your counter-top. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_0OWuFVLNw explains how sink drain water can run back into the dishwasher. In my case, I'm providing the dishwasher with it's own large 2" drain pipe that connects directly to one of the main 4" vertical lines that drains a bunch of fixtures from several rooms (probably about half the house). If that 4" line ever backed up to the level of the top of my basement ceiling, then another foot higher it would reach the level of the bottom of my dishwasher, then another 1/2 foot higher it would reach the level of the bowl of my main-floor toilet, and then another 2 feet higher the backup would start filling the kitchen sink. So if I was ever worried about a sewer backup into the dishwasher, it wouldn't take much more to backup my ground-floor toilet bowl (I don't have a basement toilet or sink, but if I did, then they'd backup before my dishwasher would). I do have a basement floor drain near my furnace where my AC condensate drains, but I'm not sure if that's tied into the storm sewer or sanitary sewer (probably sanitary sewer). So that would most likely backup before anything else would - unless the backup was caused by a plug in my main vertical 4" drain pipes. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Sum Guy wrote:
I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? As long as you are going at a continuous downward angle below the pump it will siphon out just fine. It's when they drain into the sink drain above the pump level that they need a loop above the drain level to get siphon action to completely drain the dishwasher. -- LSMFT Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin-- |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
"Sum Guy" wrote in message ... I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? Not sure I would make a direct connection to the drain in the basement. I would probably add a stand pipe with trap and air vent much like I was plumbing for a clothes washer. I would raise the drain to the dishwasher to just below the countertop before heading to the basement simply because every dishwasher install instructions that I've seen says to do it. Most instructions allow increasing the hose length if needed. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 8:55*am, Sum Guy wrote:
Roy wrote: I would be first concerned about whether or not there is a trap. From the description, it sounds like it's a direct connection to a sewer pipe. *If so, that's a code violation and could allow sewer gases to enter the dishwasher. You are correct - there is no trap between the dish washer and the sewer line the way I have it right now. Although I've never smelled anything strange in the dish washer, probably because there could always be some water sitting in the pump acting like a barrier preventing a direct airway connection to the sewer line. *Or the pump's impeller is enough of a barrier to prevent airflow.. If the sewer backs up, the water will come out where the hose enters the system and not go up into the dishwasher above. I'm not afraid of a sewer backup. *We have a separate storm-water sewer system that's not tied into our sewer system, and we're sitting on a higher elevation (relatively speaking) compared to other parts of the city. *We don't have sump pumps in our basements either. If he continues to build it as he described, he will seriously compromise the sanitation of the dishwasher AND of the sewage system. Hydraulically speaking, I'm not concerned about backflow from the sewer to the dish washer. But I am curious about your concern about comprimising the sanitation of the sewage system. *Could you explain that point a little more? Best he get some expert advice and most likely qualified plumber as well. I can't believe that something as simple as whether or not a dishwasher drain hose must always form a loop (inverted trap) wouldn't be more well known if it was common knowledge. For example: http://lgknowledgebase.com/kb/index....y&EntryID=3072 Note that in every diagram, the peak of the hose rises to the highest level as close to the top of the sink as possible. I'm not sure what that do-hickey is in the last diagram - identified as an "air gap" that seems to protrude above the counter top. *That can't be a desirable thing to have poking through your counter-top. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_0OWuFVLNw explains how sink drain water can run back into the dishwasher. In my case, I'm providing the dishwasher with it's own large 2" drain pipe that connects directly to one of the main 4" vertical lines that drains a bunch of fixtures from several rooms (probably about half the house). If that 4" line ever backed up to the level of the top of my basement ceiling, then another foot higher it would reach the level of the bottom of my dishwasher, then another 1/2 foot higher it would reach the level of the bowl of my main-floor toilet, and then another 2 feet higher the backup would start filling the kitchen sink. So if I was ever worried about a sewer backup into the dishwasher, it wouldn't take much more to backup my ground-floor toilet bowl (I don't have a basement toilet or sink, but if I did, then they'd backup before my dishwasher would). *I do have a basement floor drain near my furnace where my AC condensate drains, but I'm not sure if that's tied into the storm sewer or sanitary sewer (probably sanitary sewer). *So that would most likely backup before anything else would - unless the backup was caused by a plug in my main vertical 4" drain pipes. == Please talk to a plumber...he/she will provide the information that you need desperately. You are laboring under a load of miss- information and guesswork. == |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 10:55:27 -0400, Sum Guy wrote:
For example: http://lgknowledgebase.com/kb/index....y&EntryID=3072 Note that in every diagram, the peak of the hose rises to the highest level as close to the top of the sink as possible. In the drawing but the text says the minimum is 30 inches. I think in practice the easy place to put the air gap is at the rear of the sink. I'm not sure what that do-hickey is in the last diagram - identified as an "air gap" that seems to protrude above the counter top. That can't be a desirable thing to have poking through your counter-top. Why not? I have one. It doesn't get in the way. The air gap is the whole point of it. That's what stops the siphoning**. BTW, I once had a little chicken bone, the one next to the drumstick, in the air-vent and the dishwasher would not drain. It took a while to find the problem, and I'm still not sure how this little bone kept it from draining. **although I'll admit, I havent' figured out when there would be siphoning, or even in which direction. Stuff that would go into the dishwasher woudn't be siphoned in, I think. Maybe it is there to stop the water in the bottom of the dishwasher from being siphoned out???? This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_0OWuFVLNw explains how sink drain water can run back into the dishwasher. I'll have to look at that. In my case, I'm providing the dishwasher with it's own large 2" drain pipe that connects directly to one of the main 4" vertical lines that drains a bunch of fixtures from several rooms (probably about half the house). If that 4" line ever backed up to the level of the top of my basement ceiling, then another foot higher it would reach the level of the bottom of my dishwasher, then another 1/2 foot higher it would reach the level of the bowl of my main-floor toilet, and then another 2 feet higher the backup would start filling the kitchen sink. Yes, the toilet would overflow first if the backup was in the 4" line. So if I was ever worried about a sewer backup into the dishwasher, it wouldn't take much more to backup my ground-floor toilet bowl (I don't have a basement toilet or sink, but if I did, then they'd backup before my dishwasher would). I do have a basement floor drain near my furnace where my AC condensate drains, but I'm not sure if that's tied into the storm sewer or sanitary sewer (probably sanitary sewer). So that would most likely backup before anything else would - unless the backup was caused by a plug in my main vertical 4" drain pipes. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
LSMFT wrote:
Comments? As long as you are going at a continuous downward angle below the pump it will siphon out just fine. That's the problem. I'm wondering if the water is siphoning out when it shouldn't be. I can understand that the recommendation is that the drain hose make a loop going up to above the level where the sink water-line might be - to prevent the sink water from draining into the washer. But if you don't have to worry about the drain from a sink (because there isin't one nearby) then do you still have to worry about water draining out of the washer when you don't have a rising loop in the drain line? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Pat wrote:
Not sure I would make a direct connection to the drain in the basement. It's conveinent. I would raise the drain to the dishwasher to just below the countertop before heading to the basement simply because every dishwasher install instructions that I've seen says to do it. (I don't have a countertop - this is a portable dishwasher that I've parked in the corner of the kitchen). Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the washer, or because the washer needs the drain line to go up first before it's connected to a drain pipe because it can't stop water from siphoning out by itself. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Roy wrote:
== Please talk to a plumber...he/she will provide the information that you need desperately. You are laboring under a load of miss- information and guesswork. == Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with a similar statement. Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor, lawyer, doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked here. In other words - plonk. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 30, 9:33*pm, mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:48:36 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown wrote: On Jul 30, 6:03*pm, Sum Guy wrote: I have a dishwasher located in an area where there is no pre-existing plumbing (ie - no sink nearby). I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the dishwasher through a hole in the floor. *I've routed the drain hose from the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties into the existing drain system from the kitchen. Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a nearby sink drain pipe. But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining when it isin't supposed to. Comments? What might happen if the “the existing drain system from the kitchen” gets plugged up. Is the sewage entering from a higher source going to start backing-up into your dishwasher and onto the floor?An air-gap prevents this from happening. Does it really? An air gap is meant to break the siphoning action by allowing air to fill what would otherwise be a siphon. But with his suggested design and your suggested clog, it's not a matter of siphoning. *The water from above, including toilet sewage, would stop at the clog, then go up the dishwasher hose to the anti-siphon**, then a little will squeeze out the anti-siphon hole and the rest would continue its route to the dishwasher, work its way through the pump blades and end up in the bottom of the dishwasher. **And up any other pipes available also, like the one to the bathtub, the shower, the sinks, if they connect before the clog. The way to avoid this is to not have clogs. *I've been here 27 years and never come close to a clog, and I never had a clog anywhere else I've lived either. Because I don't let anything unusual go down the drain. *But i"m not saying a conscientious person can't have a clog. I just don't know how it could happen. If it ever does happen, he'll have to run the dishwasher through a couple cycles empty to clean it out. *That's a lot easier than cleaning up a dirty overflowed toilet. *(but not much harder than cleaning out the bathtub) * If the mechanism permits, he can speed it through the washing and rinsing part since it will all be mixed with water already anyhow.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I’ve personally seen a house in a very affluent neighborhood of California where the sewage from the street backed into the first floor and completely flooded it and believe it or not the first floor was about five feet higher than the street outside. Apparently this house was somehow last in the sewer line coming down from a very slight slope that apparently didn’t have an outlet or house for more than five feet of rise. I had to pop open a clean-out outside so that at least the sewage ran into the yard instead of the house until the city could come and snake out the street from the manhole. . |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 2:15*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
Roy wrote: == Please talk to a plumber...he/she will provide the information that you need desperately. You are laboring under a load of miss- information and guesswork. == Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with a similar statement. Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor, lawyer, doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked here. In other words - plonk. == Fine, do it your way. double plonk == |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
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Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:39:27 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote: On Jul 31, 2:15*pm, Sum Guy wrote: Roy wrote: == Please talk to a plumber...he/she will provide the information that you need desperately. You are laboring under a load of miss- information and guesswork. == Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with a similar statement. Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor, lawyer, doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked here. In other words - plonk. == Fine, do it your way. double plonk == Apparently the OP is one, that when given good information, chooses to ignore it. I still wonder why they ask in the first place. I hope I never have a neighbor like that, trying to bring the property values of the neighborhood down, every time they pick up a tool. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Gordon Shumway wrote:
Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with a similar statement. Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor, lawyer, doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked here. Apparently the OP is one, that when given good information, Where is the "good" information? All this talk about code and traps and air vents is nice, but it doesn't speak to my primary question. I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point to a drain pipe. This bit of plumbing may not be seen or noticed by most people since it can happen inside the machine's chasis or enclosure. I happen to be routing the discharge line directly through the floor under the machine, and the drain-pump outlet is just inches above the floor surface. I know I can route the discharge line up inside the enclosure for some distance (2 feet at least) before looping it back down through the hole in the floor. But I'd like to know if dishwashers depend on such an arrangement or not. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 4:49*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
Gordon Shumway wrote: Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with a similar statement. Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor, lawyer, doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked here. Apparently the OP is one, that when given good information, Where is the "good" information? All this talk about code and traps and air vents is nice, but it doesn't speak to my primary question. I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point to a drain pipe. *This bit of plumbing may not be seen or noticed by most people since it can happen inside the machine's chasis or enclosure. I happen to be routing the discharge line directly through the floor under the machine, and the drain-pump outlet is just inches above the floor surface. * I know I can route the discharge line up inside the enclosure for some distance (2 feet at least) before looping it back down through the hole in the floor. *But I'd like to know if dishwashers depend on such an arrangement or not. == Well, a plumber can tell you that and more. == |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Roy wrote:
I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point to a drain pipe. == Well, a plumber can tell you that and more. == So you're saying that I shouldn't expect an answer here from someone who might be a plumber - or who is otherwise well-informed or knowledgeable? Why does this newsgroup exist, if the pat-answer to all questions (according to you) is to ask a (plumber, electrician, pipe fitter, roofer, brick layer, engineer, chemist, contractor, lawyer, doctor, ...) ? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 5:12*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
Roy wrote: I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point to a drain pipe. == Well, a plumber can tell you that and more. == So you're saying that I shouldn't expect an answer here from someone who might be a plumber - or who is otherwise well-informed or knowledgeable? Why does this newsgroup exist, if the pat-answer to all questions (according to you) is to ask a (plumber, electrician, pipe fitter, roofer, brick layer, engineer, chemist, contractor, lawyer, doctor, ...) ? == Qualified electricians, plumbers, etc., keep up on these things because it is necessary for their job. I might remember what was up to code when I installed an appliance back in 1982, but many code changes may have come about since. I was not being a smart ass for suggesting an expert in the field of plumbing but perhaps to help you avoid an error which could cause financial or even health problems in the future. == |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Jul 31, 4:13*pm, Sum Guy wrote:
Pat wrote: Not sure I would make a direct connection to the drain in the basement. It's conveinent. Your lights go out because a 15 amp fuse blows. Following your logic, you put in a 30 amp one because it's convenient. The lights are back on. Problem solved. There is a reason why code requires a trap and vent on drains. Several people here have tried to explain to you why what you're doing can and likely will result in sewer gas entering the dishwasher and living space. But that doesn't concern you. I would raise the drain to the dishwasher to just below the countertop before heading to the basement simply because every dishwasher install instructions that I've seen says to do it. (I don't have a countertop - this is a portable dishwasher that I've parked in the corner of the kitchen). Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the washer, or because the washer needs the drain line to go up first before it's connected to a drain pipe because it can't stop water from siphoning out by itself. Going up first doesn't stop a siphon from working. I can place one bucket of water 15 feet higher than another. Take a hose, fill it with water, put it in the high bucket and let the hose rise another 2 feet above the bucket. Put the other end in the lower bucket. The water will still siphon. The high loop is there so that if the sink drain backs up, it will rise into the sink first and will only get to the dishwasher if it rises clear to the top of the high loop, ie as high as the bottom of the counter top. For it to rise that high is quite unlikely and someone will likely notice the backup, as opposed to it going unoticed and just contaminating the dishwasher. But, why all the concern? You obviously don't care about doing plumbing to code when there is an obvious and very good reason for the code, ie a trap and vent to prevent sewer gas from coming into the house. The dishwasher seems to be working, so just do it your way. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:49:36 -0400, Sum Guy wrote:
Where is the "good" information? You have been given the following "good" information several times: 1. RTFB. 2. Get professional help. Your choice is probably going to be "3. None of the above, I'm fully capable of screwing things up all by myself". |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
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Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:12:34 -0400, Sum Guy wrote:
Roy wrote: I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point to a drain pipe. == Well, a plumber can tell you that and more. == So you're saying that I shouldn't expect an answer here from someone who might be a plumber - or who is otherwise well-informed or knowledgeable? You have to admit, this thread has been running for a long time, and no one has answered your exact question. IIRC people have even disagreed with some of the things that were said. I don't remember anyone here being a licensed plumber. Why does this newsgroup exist, I think about 20, 25 years ago, someone wanted to discuss home repairs. Either that or someone just put it on the list, even though he personally wasn't interested. if the pat-answer to all questions But it's not the answer or an answer given to all questions. It wasn't even the only answer given in this thread. (according to you) is to ask a (plumber, electrician, pipe fitter, roofer, brick layer, engineer, chemist, contractor, lawyer, doctor, ...) ? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
But, why all the concern?
Because my washer does not seem to be operating properly - it seems to need to have water added at times during the various cleaning cycles as if water is leaving it for some reason. I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line. Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your dishwasher and entering your house 24/7. The dishwasher is made to vent the air/moisture inside out into your house. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point to a drain pipe. This bit of plumbing may not be seen or noticed by most people since it can happen inside the machine's chasis or enclosure. I happen to be routing the discharge line directly through the floor under the machine, and the drain-pump outlet is just inches above the floor surface. I know I can route the discharge line up inside the enclosure for some distance (2 feet at least) before looping it back down through the hole in the floor. But I'd like to know if dishwashers depend on such an arrangement or not. I think looping high is neccessary. Also since you are going into the basement a air gap may be essential. |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Pat wrote:
I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line. Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your dishwasher and entering your house 24/7. Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump? |
Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Sum Guy wrote:
Pat wrote: I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line. Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your dishwasher and entering your house 24/7. Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump? You can hook it up with or with out the loop. If it works without the loop good deal, if the water drains out as it fills then make a loop. I'd do the loop anyway, bugs have a habit of crawling inside and up anything they can and you might find a bug or two in your dishwasher someday, if there is an air gap to the floor drain in the basement there shouldn't be much chance of sewage contamination. If you and your family are healthy a year from now, no problem! Me I'd want to make sure there isn't sewer gas getting back to the dishwasher. A trap as close as possible is the best way I know of to do that and the machine gets plenty of hot water (that is really good at killing or reducing germs) and dissolving fats. FWIW I always throw in some water in before running my dishwasher, lubricates the seals before the water gets around to flowing in, starting the dishwasher dry is a good way to shorten it's life. I also turn on the hot water at the faucet to get the hot water at least that far, then shut off the faucet so the dishwasher can start with hot water coming in. And finally the purpose of requiring licensing of plumbers is to protect the public water supply. It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals, then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing can back feed to the public water system causing contamination of the public water supply system. It usually takes a chain of events for this to happen but it does, nail, shoe, horse, soldier, battle kind of thing. google "water supply cross contamination" if you are interested. There are lots of examples of this happening. You just might be drinking your neighbor's sewage or the chemicals he sprayed on his lawn. Now go forth and get the dishes washed. What are wives good for anymore? Aren't they supposed to wash the dishes? |
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