Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

On May 29, 6:52*am, ls02 wrote:
Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

What kind of solar panel? Electricity generation, preheat hot
water,?????

On May 29, 9:22*am, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On May 29, 6:52*am, ls02 wrote:

Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

What kind of solar panel? *Electricity generation, preheat hot
water,?????

Electricity.

http://www.green-trust.org/
This guy has a lot of eperience in the field.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"ls02" wrote in message
...


What kind of solar panel? Electricity generation, preheat hot
water,?????

Electricity.

In article
,
ls02 wrote:

Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

If you come to usenet through a newsreader instead of google, more
people will see your post.

Local codes vary. Around here, you can't get subsidies/rebates unless
the equipment is on the approved list, and the installer is a licensed
contractor on the approved list. Also, different utilities have
different buy-back rates for grid-tied systems.

You have a lot of homework to do, but installed "dollars per watt" are
running about 10 here, while panel dollars per watt for
self-installation are readily available for about 3. So theoretically
you can bring the cost into the economically viable range by DIY.

I'm reasonably sure that it's illegal everywhere for anyone other than a
licensed electrician to actually tie your system to the grid.

ls02 wrote:
Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

Most federal and state incentives are for the purchase, not the
installation. So you can do it yourself. I got tax deductions for my
replacement windows and biomass pellet stove and did it myself.
When I do solar water and electric I will do it myself.
Some low income weatherization and insulation installations may be
subsidized though.


--
LSMFT

I haven't spoken to my wife in 18 months.
I don't like to interrupt her.

On May 29, 4:52*am, ls02 wrote:
Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

Please remember that solar panels have about a twenty year life span.
After twenty years you will need to buy new ones.

Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.


*I am an electrical contractor in NJ. I am currently not promoting the
installation of photovoltaic panels through my business. I have taken some
classes and talked with several installers of solar panels and have not
become convinced it is something that everyone should have. With rebates
and tax credits it can almost make economic sense for an average homeowner,
but you need to look at the big picture. Where will you install the panels?
Not every roof can withstand the extra weight. What will you do when the
roof needs replacing? How will you keep the panels clean? Will replacement
parts be available as well as someone to repair the system after a few
years? Will you be living in your house long enough to realize a payback?
Is this something that will affect the value of your house one way or
another? Will the panels look attractive? Since you plan to do the work
yourself, do you have any experience working with live electricity? The
panels start putting out juice as soon as they are exposed to daylight.

I have been hearing Trinity Solar in NJ advertise free installation. Give
them a call and see what that is about.

I personally believe that you will get a better and faster payback with
insulation which includes windows, doors, caulking and sealing and by
improving energy efficiency. I've noticed that a number of customers are
going for window replacement due to tax credits.

The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing your own
home is a good investment. Of course your home will appreciate in value over
time. However when you add up the interest paid on the mortgage, the taxes,
insurance, maintenance and upkeep as well as the purchasing and selling
costs it can actually be a loss.

John Grabowski wrote:
Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.


*I am an electrical contractor in NJ. I am currently not promoting the
installation of photovoltaic panels through my business. I have taken
some classes and talked with several installers of solar panels and have
not become convinced it is something that everyone should have. With
rebates and tax credits it can almost make economic sense for an average
homeowner, but you need to look at the big picture. Where will you
install the panels? Not every roof can withstand the extra weight. What
will you do when the roof needs replacing? How will you keep the panels
clean? Will replacement parts be available as well as someone to repair
the system after a few years? Will you be living in your house long
enough to realize a payback? Is this something that will affect the
value of your house one way or another? Will the panels look
attractive? Since you plan to do the work yourself, do you have any
experience working with live electricity? The panels start putting out
juice as soon as they are exposed to daylight.

I have been hearing Trinity Solar in NJ advertise free installation.
Give them a call and see what that is about.

I personally believe that you will get a better and faster payback with
insulation which includes windows, doors, caulking and sealing and by
improving energy efficiency. I've noticed that a number of customers
are going for window replacement due to tax credits.

The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing your
own home is a good investment. Of course your home will appreciate in
value over time. However when you add up the interest paid on the
mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep as well as the
purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a loss.

You've been warned before about speaking with common sense on here.....

--
aem sends...

Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.


*I am an electrical contractor in NJ. I am currently not promoting the
installation of photovoltaic panels through my business. I have taken
some classes and talked with several installers of solar panels and have
not become convinced it is something that everyone should have. With
rebates and tax credits it can almost make economic sense for an average
homeowner, but you need to look at the big picture. Where will you
install the panels? Not every roof can withstand the extra weight. What
will you do when the roof needs replacing? How will you keep the panels
clean? Will replacement parts be available as well as someone to repair
the system after a few years? Will you be living in your house long
enough to realize a payback? Is this something that will affect the value
of your house one way or another? Will the panels look attractive?
Since you plan to do the work yourself, do you have any experience
working with live electricity? The panels start putting out juice as
soon as they are exposed to daylight.

I have been hearing Trinity Solar in NJ advertise free installation.
Give them a call and see what that is about.

I personally believe that you will get a better and faster payback with
insulation which includes windows, doors, caulking and sealing and by
improving energy efficiency. I've noticed that a number of customers are
going for window replacement due to tax credits.

The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing your
own home is a good investment. Of course your home will appreciate in
value over time. However when you add up the interest paid on the
mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep as well as the
purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a loss.



You've been warned before about speaking with common sense on here.....


*Sorry :-)

John Grabowski wrote:

The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing
your own home is a good investment. Of course your home will
appreciate in value over time. However when you add up the interest
paid on the mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep as
well as the purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a loss.

You have completely discounted the value of "feeling good about saving the
environment." While admittedly this is hard to quantify, contentment is
often a high-priced item.

For those for whom intent trumps results, solar panels would be a good deal
at twice the price.

"HeyBub" wrote in
:

You have completely discounted the value of "feeling good about saving
the environment." While admittedly this is hard to quantify,
contentment is often a high-priced item.

For those for whom intent trumps results, solar panels would be a good
deal at twice the price.

Nobody can predict the future price of electricity. I can hardly think the
price would come down. So that is another imponderable.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing
your own home is a good investment. Of course your home will
appreciate in value over time. However when you add up the interest
paid on the mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep as
well as the purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a loss.

You have completely discounted the value of "feeling good about saving the
environment." While admittedly this is hard to quantify, contentment is
often a high-priced item.

For those for whom intent trumps results, solar panels would be a good
deal at twice the price.


*I also did not consider bragging rights. I am not familiar with the
manufacturing process for solar panels, but I would think that the factory
uses electricity (Solar?) and other utilities for lighting, heat, computers
etc. Then there's the diesel trucks that deliver the panels to a warehouse
and get unloaded by a forklift. Then a local gas or diesel powered truck
delivers them to the end user. How many trees were cut down for the factory
and warehouse to be built? How much wildlife was displaced to make room for
the parking lots and driveways? How much fertilizer will be put down on the
factory lawn and garden to make it look pretty?

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment and
live in harmony with it is to stop population growth. There are too many
people living on this planet sucking the life out of it. Unfortunately our
economic system depends on growth and expansion. We bank on that premise.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment and live in
harmony with it is to stop population growth. There are too many people living on this
planet sucking the life out of it. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth
and expansion. We bank on that premise.

Why stop there? Why not kill everyone so that the Earth may once again be
its own native, non-exploited, pollution free environment where all life lives
in peaceful harmony with one another. It's a picture perfect utopia. Hell, even
the microbes and various other parasites will stop being what they are once
the evil human influence is gone.

No more ice ages.

No more mega volcanoes.

I bet the comets and large asteroids will steer clear of the Earth, too.

What bliss...

In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:



My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment and
live in harmony with it is to stop population growth. There are too many
people living on this planet sucking the life out of it. Unfortunately our
economic system depends on growth and expansion. We bank on that premise.

While channel surfing the other day I happened upon an author being
interviewed; apparently his book had just been published. He says the
population is due to stabilize in a few years. Worldwide, women are
having half as many kids as their mothers did. He stressed that this
isn't just a worldwide average, but a phenomena that is happening all
over the world, in all cultures.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing
your own home is a good investment. Of course your home will
appreciate in value over time. However when you add up the interest
paid on the mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep as
well as the purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a loss.

You have completely discounted the value of "feeling good about saving
the environment." While admittedly this is hard to quantify, contentment
is often a high-priced item.

For those for whom intent trumps results, solar panels would be a good
deal at twice the price.


*I also did not consider bragging rights. I am not familiar with the
manufacturing process for solar panels, but I would think that the factory
uses electricity (Solar?) and other utilities for lighting, heat,
computers etc. Then there's the diesel trucks that deliver the panels to
a warehouse and get unloaded by a forklift. Then a local gas or diesel
powered truck delivers them to the end user. How many trees were cut down
for the factory and warehouse to be built? How much wildlife was
displaced to make room for the parking lots and driveways? How much
fertilizer will be put down on the factory lawn and garden to make it look
pretty?

Solar cell manufacture or any semi-conductor mfr is one of the "filthiest"
industrial process on the planet, which is why most of it is made in asia.
I don't know if the EPA would even allow those plants in Merka.


My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment
and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth. There are too
many people living on this planet sucking the life out of it.
Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and expansion. We
bank on that premise.

A super-excellent point.
Our economies, by mere dint of the demand that they constantly grow and
expand, makes them *by definition* ponzi schemes.
The words "equilibrium" or "sustainable" or "steady state" -- or, in
thermodynamic parlance, "reversible" -- are sacriligious concepts today.

Why? Because the puppeteers of the world just make mo' money, mo' money,
and mo' money off the resulting ponzi frenzy.

The '50s, 60s are long gone, along with analog.
Digitalization is the ass****ing of the (m)asses.
The best you (plural you) can hope to do is find a longterm supply of
vaseline. Might I suggest mixing in some Vits A and E....
--
EA

John Grabowski wrote:

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the
environment and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth.
There are too many people living on this planet sucking the life out
of it. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and
expansion. We bank on that premise.

Nah, there aren't too many people.

If all the folks on earth were stacked up like cordwood, they would fit in a
cubic mile.

If everybody on the planet migrated to the state of West Virginia, they
would not exceed the population density of Hong Kong.

And who wants to "live in harmony" with nature?

In nature there are ants and other creepy things.

But, in a way, we are in harmony with nature. I can't name a single organism
that voluntarily limits its growth by not reproducing.

HeyBub wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the
environment and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth.
There are too many people living on this planet sucking the life out
of it. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and
expansion. We bank on that premise.

Nah, there aren't too many people.

If all the folks on earth were stacked up like cordwood, they would
fit in a cubic mile.

If everybody on the planet migrated to the state of West Virginia,
they would not exceed the population density of Hong Kong.

And who wants to "live in harmony" with nature?

In nature there are ants and other creepy things.
I appreciate the humo(u)r.

But, in a way, we are in harmony with nature. I can't name a single
organism that voluntarily limits its growth by not reproducing.

There lies our problem!

Clot wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:
My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the
environment and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth.
There are too many people living on this planet sucking the life out
of it. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and
expansion. We bank on that premise.
Nah, there aren't too many people.

If all the folks on earth were stacked up like cordwood, they would
fit in a cubic mile.

If everybody on the planet migrated to the state of West Virginia,
they would not exceed the population density of Hong Kong.

And who wants to "live in harmony" with nature?

In nature there are ants and other creepy things.
I appreciate the humo(u)r.
But, in a way, we are in harmony with nature. I can't name a single
organism that voluntarily limits its growth by not reproducing.

There lies our problem!



The human population WILL stabilize at some point- when the carrying
capacity of our ecological niche is exceeded, either long-term through
depletion of resources, or short-term due to some sort of choke point
caused by weather or natural disaster. Humans have been expanding their
available carrying capacity by use of technology, and by taking
resources used by other species.

I recommend that humanity limit their numbers on their own, by reducing
reproduction to no more than replacement rate. If we wait for mother
nature to provide the genetic choke point via a massive die-off, it
ain't gonna be pretty. See sub-Saharan Africa for a small preview.
Imagine the whole planet like that, but with even less food and water.

--
aem sends...

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
John Grabowski wrote:

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the
environment and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth.
There are too many people living on this planet sucking the life out
of it. Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and
expansion. We bank on that premise.

Nah, there aren't too many people.

If all the folks on earth were stacked up like cordwood, they would fit in
a cubic mile.

What about their SUVs?
Etc.


If everybody on the planet migrated to the state of West Virginia, they
would not exceed the population density of Hong Kong.

And who wants to "live in harmony" with nature?

In nature there are ants and other creepy things.

But, in a way, we are in harmony with nature. I can't name a single
organism that voluntarily limits its growth by not reproducing.

The SUV thing again....
--
EA

"MIB" wrote in message
news

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment
and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth. There are too
many people living on this planet sucking the life out of it.
Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and expansion. We
bank on that premise.

Why stop there? Why not kill everyone so that the Earth may once again be
its own native, non-exploited, pollution free environment where all life
lives
in peaceful harmony with one another.

Not a bad idea.
But all good ideas need testing.
Let's start with lawyers, pols, CEO's, and investment bankers, and see what
happens.
--
EA



It's a picture perfect utopia. Hell, even
the microbes and various other parasites will stop being what they are
once
the evil human influence is gone.

No more ice ages.

No more mega volcanoes.

I bet the comets and large asteroids will steer clear of the Earth, too.

What bliss...

On Sun, 30 May 2010 14:10:21 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote Re DIY solar panel install:


My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment
and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth. There are too
many people living on this planet sucking the life out of it.
Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and expansion. We
bank on that premise.

A super-excellent point.
Our economies, by mere dint of the demand that they constantly grow and
expand, makes them *by definition* ponzi schemes.
The words "equilibrium" or "sustainable" or "steady state" -- or, in
thermodynamic parlance, "reversible" -- are sacriligious concepts today.

Why? Because the puppeteers of the world just make mo' money, mo' money,
and mo' money off the resulting ponzi frenzy.

Exactly.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Existential Angst wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
John Grabowski wrote:

My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the
environment and live in harmony with it is to stop population
growth. There are too many people living on this planet sucking the
life out of it. Unfortunately our economic system depends on
growth and expansion. We bank on that premise.

Nah, there aren't too many people.

If all the folks on earth were stacked up like cordwood, they would
fit in a cubic mile.

What about their SUVs?
Etc.


If everybody on the planet migrated to the state of West Virginia,
they would not exceed the population density of Hong Kong.

And who wants to "live in harmony" with nature?

In nature there are ants and other creepy things.

But, in a way, we are in harmony with nature. I can't name a single
organism that voluntarily limits its growth by not reproducing.

The SUV thing again....

No, the SUV promotes reproduction; I'm speaking as one who barely succeeded
in having sex in the back of a VW bug. Many times.

This was helpful for me....

My favorite Renewable Energy project was easy after this :
http://renewablesolarenergy.water101...x/?page_id=128

On May 29, 4:51*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not driven
by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does not deliver
I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

*I am an electrical contractor in NJ. *I am currently not promoting the
installation of photovoltaic panels through my business. *I have taken some
classes and talked with several installers of solar panels and have not
become convinced it is something that everyone should have.

I agree, they are not for everyone.


*With rebates
and tax credits it can almost make economic sense for an average homeowner,
but you need to look at the big picture. *


With tax credits and incentives I think it already does make economic
sense for an average homeowner.


Where will you install the panels?

That's critical. South facing is the best location. Next would be
West or East with a 15 or 20% reduction in output.



Not every roof can withstand the extra weight. *


I'm sure that's a possibility in some cases, but plenty of them are
going up fully permitted and inspected on ordinary roofs.

What will you do when the
roof needs replacing? *

That's a valid issue. Clearly they are best suited to a new roof, as
the panels are generally warranteed for 25 years so the lifespans are
in the same range, at least with a shingle roof.


How will you keep the panels clean?

Manufacturers recommend cleaning them off with a hose a couple times a
year, if possible. If you don't the output will be reduced, but not
by a huge amount.


*Will replacement
parts be available as well as someone to repair the system after a few
years?

As long as you buy the panels from a major manufacturer that should
not be a problem.



*Will you be living in your house long enough to realize a payback?
Is this something that will affect the value of your house one way or
another? *Will the panels look attractive?

If the panels are installed on the back of the house or alternatively
on a side not highly visible from the street, I don't think there is
any question that it adds value to the house and you will likely get
back most if not all of what the system cost. I'd certainly pay more
for a house with solar, knowing I get close to free electric.

On the other hand, if you had to install them on the roof facing the
street, I think they look like hell and at best it probably doesn't
add value to the house and could decrease it. Also, mounting them
on the ground can be an option in some cases.



*Since you plan to do the work
yourself, do you have any experience working with live electricity? *The
panels start putting out juice as soon as they are exposed to daylight.

An interesting point, but I don't see that as a big issue. Just put
a temporary cover on them. I think a bigger issue is getting the
install done right, which involves a lot:

Making sure the panels are oriented optimally.
Correctly sizing the system.
Installing them so that you don't wind up with leaks
Installing them so the warranty remains intact is critical and I would
suspect many of the companies will require professional installation
to honor the warranty.
Complying with all the electric code issues in hooking up to the grid.


In short, I do a lot of my own work, but this is one thing I would not
attempt to do myself.



I have been hearing Trinity Solar in NJ advertise free installation. *Give
them a call and see what that is about.

HD also runs seminars with their local installers using BP panels.
The seminar is about an hour and a good forum to get basic info and
ask questions. Even better, I'd find some local folks who have had
one installed for a year or more and ask them questions.


I personally believe that you will get a better and faster payback with
insulation which includes windows, doors, caulking and sealing and by
improving energy efficiency. *I've noticed that a number of customers are
going for window replacement due to tax credits.

Could be true, but then for many people it's not an either/or
situation.





The solar fallacy sort of *follows the same thinking as purchasing your own
home is a good investment. Of course your home will appreciate in value over
time. *However when you add up the interest paid on the mortgage, the taxes,
insurance, maintenance and upkeep as well as the purchasing and selling
costs it can actually be a loss.

If you do the actual numbers in NJ, which is one of the most solar
friendly states and use reasonable assumptions, solar electric comes
out a winner for the homeowner. However, that is only because of the
subsidies from the govt, which the rest of us wind up paying.

A 6.5 Kwatt system runs about $48K installed. You get a fed tax
credit of 30% which effectively knocks $14K off the price.. NJ also
has a program than can kick in maybe another $7K, but the program is a
real cluster f***. There isn't enough money, so every 4 months they
take applications for new systems. You have to get the application
approved BEFORE you can install the system. In May, they had
thousands of apps the first day they were open to receive them and
then within a day closed the window and stopped taking apps and you
are left to start all over. The application is extensive and must
include a signed contract with the installer, etc. How many times you
or the installer want to try to play that game is questionable. So,
for practical purposes, your probability of getting that one seems
low.

However, the utilities have to meet a goal of getting to 20% renewable
by 2020. So they are buying renewable energy credits from homeowners
which count toward that goal. You get one for every 1000 KWH that
your system generates, regardless of whether you use it or some or all
of it goes into the grid. The value of the credits is set by auction/
trading based on how badly the electric companies need them.
Currently they were going for about $550. At that price, the system
gets you about $4k a year in cash, which is a major component in
making it viable. That 6.5KW system will also reduce a $140 a month
bill close to zero.

If you factor all that together, figure that you finance the system
with a home equity loan that is tax deductible, depreciate it over 25
years, add in $500 a year in maintenance, etc, you can run the
numbers, but IMO you come out way ahead.

One other interesting factor to consider, that you might not expect,
is that in the case of a black out, you will still not have power to
the house unless you also install a battery array. If the grid goes
down, so does the system. I haven't heard a good technical
explanation of why, but I believe it's due to the fact that the system
needs something to balance it out. For example, if it were stand
alone and a cloud came by, you could have a brownout situation which
could damage devices in the house using the electricity.

As a disclaimer, I'm not an expert at any of this. All of the above
is based on what I've learned so far looking into it myself.

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On May 29, 4:51 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Has anyone done DIY solar panel installation? Do federal and state
subsidies and credits still apply for DIY solar install? I live in
central NJ and researching possibility of solar panel. I am not
driven by green paranoia, only by economics. So if economics does
not deliver I will not do it.

From what I read and heard multiple times if solar panels are
installed by a pro even with all subsidies and credits it is still
very bad economic deal and it takes zillion years to recoup huge
investment. What I thought is good portion of this cost is
installation and if I can install them myself I could make numbers
align better. Any info on DIY solar install and personal experience
would be greatly appreciated.

*I am an electrical contractor in NJ. I am currently not promoting
the installation of photovoltaic panels through my business. I have
taken some classes and talked with several installers of solar
panels and have not become convinced it is something that everyone
should have.

I agree, they are not for everyone.


With rebates
and tax credits it can almost make economic sense for an average
homeowner, but you need to look at the big picture.


With tax credits and incentives I think it already does make economic
sense for an average homeowner.


Where will you install the panels?

That's critical. South facing is the best location. Next would be
West or East with a 15 or 20% reduction in output.



Not every roof can withstand the extra weight.


I'm sure that's a possibility in some cases, but plenty of them are
going up fully permitted and inspected on ordinary roofs.

What will you do when the
roof needs replacing?

That's a valid issue. Clearly they are best suited to a new roof, as
the panels are generally warranteed for 25 years so the lifespans are
in the same range, at least with a shingle roof.


How will you keep the panels clean?

Manufacturers recommend cleaning them off with a hose a couple times a
year, if possible. If you don't the output will be reduced, but not
by a huge amount.


Will replacement
parts be available as well as someone to repair the system after a
few years?

As long as you buy the panels from a major manufacturer that should
not be a problem.



Will you be living in your house long enough to realize a payback?
Is this something that will affect the value of your house one way or
another? Will the panels look attractive?

If the panels are installed on the back of the house or alternatively
on a side not highly visible from the street, I don't think there is
any question that it adds value to the house and you will likely get
back most if not all of what the system cost. I'd certainly pay more
for a house with solar, knowing I get close to free electric.

On the other hand, if you had to install them on the roof facing the
street, I think they look like hell and at best it probably doesn't
add value to the house and could decrease it. Also, mounting them
on the ground can be an option in some cases.



Since you plan to do the work
yourself, do you have any experience working with live electricity?
The panels start putting out juice as soon as they are exposed to
daylight.

An interesting point, but I don't see that as a big issue. Just put
a temporary cover on them. I think a bigger issue is getting the
install done right, which involves a lot:

Making sure the panels are oriented optimally.
Correctly sizing the system.
Installing them so that you don't wind up with leaks
Installing them so the warranty remains intact is critical and I would
suspect many of the companies will require professional installation
to honor the warranty.
Complying with all the electric code issues in hooking up to the grid.


In short, I do a lot of my own work, but this is one thing I would not
attempt to do myself.



I have been hearing Trinity Solar in NJ advertise free installation.
Give them a call and see what that is about.

HD also runs seminars with their local installers using BP panels.
The seminar is about an hour and a good forum to get basic info and
ask questions. Even better, I'd find some local folks who have had
one installed for a year or more and ask them questions.


I personally believe that you will get a better and faster payback
with insulation which includes windows, doors, caulking and sealing
and by improving energy efficiency. I've noticed that a number of
customers are going for window replacement due to tax credits.

Could be true, but then for many people it's not an either/or
situation.





The solar fallacy sort of follows the same thinking as purchasing
your own home is a good investment. Of course your home will
appreciate in value over time. However when you add up the interest
paid on the mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep
as well as the purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a
loss.

If you do the actual numbers in NJ, which is one of the most solar
friendly states and use reasonable assumptions, solar electric comes
out a winner for the homeowner. However, that is only because of the
subsidies from the govt, which the rest of us wind up paying.

A 6.5 Kwatt system runs about $48K installed. You get a fed tax
credit of 30% which effectively knocks $14K off the price.. NJ also
has a program than can kick in maybe another $7K, but the program is a
real cluster f***. There isn't enough money, so every 4 months they
take applications for new systems. You have to get the application
approved BEFORE you can install the system. In May, they had
thousands of apps the first day they were open to receive them and
then within a day closed the window and stopped taking apps and you
are left to start all over. The application is extensive and must
include a signed contract with the installer, etc. How many times you
or the installer want to try to play that game is questionable. So,
for practical purposes, your probability of getting that one seems
low.

However, the utilities have to meet a goal of getting to 20% renewable
by 2020. So they are buying renewable energy credits from homeowners
which count toward that goal. You get one for every 1000 KWH that
your system generates, regardless of whether you use it or some or all
of it goes into the grid. The value of the credits is set by
auction/ trading based on how badly the electric companies need them.
Currently they were going for about $550. At that price, the system
gets you about $4k a year in cash, which is a major component in
making it viable. That 6.5KW system will also reduce a $140 a month
bill close to zero.

If you factor all that together, figure that you finance the system
with a home equity loan that is tax deductible, depreciate it over 25
years, add in $500 a year in maintenance, etc, you can run the
numbers, but IMO you come out way ahead.

One other interesting factor to consider, that you might not expect,
is that in the case of a black out, you will still not have power to
the house unless you also install a battery array. If the grid goes
down, so does the system. I haven't heard a good technical
explanation of why, but I believe it's due to the fact that the system
needs something to balance it out. For example, if it were stand
alone and a cloud came by, you could have a brownout situation which
could damage devices in the house using the electricity.

As a disclaimer, I'm not an expert at any of this. All of the above
is based on what I've learned so far looking into it myself.

i just put in a 7.5kw system. i watched the installers pretty much all the
time, and a very good handyman would be able to everything they did
without too much problems. however, you have to have a wide breadth of
knowledge, since it involves cutting a lot of holes into your roof, tying
the new structure to the existing structure, calculating tilt/wind
load/weight/etc issues, high voltage dc wiring, installation of the ac/dc
converter, meeting all code for electricians and permitting/inspections by
the city. furthermore, almost all the systems are grid-tied, so the power
company has a say in who gets to install the backfeed wiring. they may not
want to allow a diy to do this, so you'd have to check first with them.

in answer to some of the above specific questions:

- flat roof with a parapet hides the panels from the street completely
- southwest facing house
- after rebates, at my current usage, payback is 4.5 years.

How did you calc a 4.5 year ROI?

--
EA




the power
company has filed for a rate increase the last 3 years in a row and i
presume will do so in the future if gas prices go up. this will make the
payback date sooner.
- my 7.5kw system cost about $44k, or $7.5k after rebates
- currently in s arizona i can generate about 50kwh/day. this goes down as
ambient temps go up. i cleaned them off a few days ago, and generation
rate went up by 1.2kwh/day, which is pretty significant. they recommend
cleaning at least once/month.
- the installation part of the $44k was about $6k, so at most you're going
to save 10-15% for diy, but you may pay more for the hardware as you'd not
get the bulk discounts that the installer is getting
- inverter warrantee is 10 yrs. panel warrantee is 25 yrs. i'm not sure
your maintenance rate of 500/year is correct, at least for the first 10
years or so.

it's a no brainer with the massive rebates that are available if you can
get onto the accepted list at the power company; it makes almost no sense
if you don't get rebates, although i know of people who have installed
systems before the rebates came into being a couple of years ago in my
area. they are happy with their systems, but would have been a lot more
happy with rebates.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

On May 30, 2:10*pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
"John Grabowski" wrote in message

...





The solar fallacy sort of *follows the same thinking as purchasing
your own home is a good investment. Of course your home will
appreciate in value over time. *However when you add up the interest
paid on the mortgage, the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep as
well as the purchasing and selling costs it can actually be a loss.

You have completely discounted the value of "feeling good about saving
the environment." While admittedly this is hard to quantify, contentment
is often a high-priced item.

For those for whom intent trumps results, solar panels would be a good
deal at twice the price.

*I also did not consider bragging rights. *I am not familiar with the
manufacturing process for solar panels, but I would think that the factory
uses electricity (Solar?) and other utilities for lighting, heat,
computers etc. *Then there's the diesel trucks that deliver the panels to
a warehouse and get unloaded by a forklift. *Then a local gas or diesel
powered truck delivers them to the end user. *How many trees were cut down
for the factory and warehouse to be built? *How much wildlife was
displaced to make room for the parking lots and driveways? *How much
fertilizer will be put down on the factory lawn and garden to make it look
pretty?

Solar cell manufacture or any semi-conductor mfr is one of the "filthiest"
industrial process on the planet, which is why most of it is made in asia..
I don't know if the EPA would even allow those plants in Merka.



As usual, more nonsense. Semiconductor plants have existed for
decades in the US and Europe easily meeting all environmental
regulations. As an example, Intel has major fabs located in the USA
in AZ, NM and OR. They also have them located in Ireland and
Israel. Their competitor AMD, built a huge facility in Germany.
Hardly locations that let you spew toxins into the environment.

The fact that more plants today are being built in Asia is more a
function of tax policies, incentives and labor costs as opposed to
environmental issues. That's exactly what drove Intel to stop
building new fabs in CA and to shift to othe locations in the USA and
abroad.






My personal opinion is that the only way to really save the environment
and live in harmony with it is to stop population growth. *There are too
many people living on this planet sucking the life out of it.
Unfortunately our economic system depends on growth and expansion. *We
bank on that premise.

A super-excellent point.
* Our economies, by mere dint of the demand that they constantly grow and
expand, makes them *by definition* ponzi schemes.
The words "equilibrium" or "sustainable" or "steady state" -- or, in
thermodynamic parlance, "reversible" -- are sacriligious concepts today.

Why? *Because the puppeteers of the world just make mo' money, mo' money,
and mo' money off the resulting ponzi frenzy.

The '50s, 60s are long gone, along with analog.
Digitalization is the ass****ing of the (m)asses.
The best you (plural you) can hope to do is find a longterm supply of
vaseline. *Might I suggest mixing in some Vits A and E....
--
EA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 1, 12:50*pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
-

As usual, you really have a knack for hijacking threads and turning
them into BS discussions, don't you? * The guy asks a question about
residential solar electric in NJ and you're talking about everything
but that.

He should definitely be calling Art Bell to discuss his woes... But aside
from that I discovered there is no point in replying to anything he writes
because of his bizarro responses.

Yet you replied to my ROI calc....
And YOU were the one who started the thread drift with your McMansions
comment.
I simply extended the concept.

I guess since you barely followed the ROI calc, extending yourself a little
further is just too painful, eh?
You and your mono-minded butt-buddee trader4..... *speaking of which,
Trader4, if you are so effing bright, why didn't YOU come up with the ROI
calc?? * *All that effing verbiage, but no calcs.

I provided another post in this thread where I went over in DETAIL the
costs and subsidies applicable to solar electric in NJ. That's
right, actual information about the solar economics in the state that
the OP was asking about. I didn't post it in this part of the
thread with your BS and digression into McMansions, NY subways and God
knows what else that had nothing to do with the question, because the
other spot in the thread was on topic and more appropriate.
Capiche? And if you do the correct ROI, solar makes very good
economic sense for a homeowner looking to install it in NJ today.
You don't even have a clue as to what subsidies are available to the
OP, yet as usual, you spout off and make an ass of yourself. Then
you quicky resort to hurling insults at nearly everyone else on this
group.







Heh, you didn't have too much to say when your buttbuddee SaltyAsshole
thought he was going to get a 7 year ROI with his geothermal confabulations,
now, did you??
Because basically you don't understand ROI either. Just like you don't
understand induction/Biot-Savarte's law.
--
EA