Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...t/4347294.html

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

On Feb 28, 2:13*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. A bit like American cars
in fact. Useless and outdated.

harry wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. A bit like American cars
in fact. Useless and outdated.

Okay, yeah, maybe most US houses are on the lightweight side. What can I
say? Material and land and energy used to be cheap here. House falls
down, move a mile further out and build a new one. Can't do that in UK-
no room. And while new construction may be more energy-efficient on that
side of the pond, what percentage of the existing housing stock is built
to those standards?

But for somebody from UK to call US cars crappy? Pot-Kettle-Black, etc.
At least we still have a couple of US-owned manufacturers left.

--
aem sends...

harry wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. A bit like American cars
in fact. Useless and outdated.

Another thing that has changed is house size. Houses have gone
from maybe 1700 sq.ft. to 2400 sq.ft. or so. Family size has gone down.

Have you driven a Ford lately?
GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.

Dean Hoffman wrote:
harry wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan
- and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000
units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. A bit like American cars
in fact. Useless and outdated.

Another thing that has changed is house size. Houses have gone
from maybe 1700 sq.ft. to 2400 sq.ft. or so. Family size has gone down.

Have you driven a Ford lately?
GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.

Check your numbers. Until the '70s, 1100 sq. feet or smaller was a
typical house size, unless you were rich. Bedrooms were tiny, until
everyone thought they needed a barge to sleep on. Living rooms were 12
feet wide and 16 feet long, not 24x24. (Try buying a couch sized for an
older house- it ain't easy.) Family rooms, if they existed, were in the
basement and called 'rec rooms'. A house with a second toilet in the
laundry room/mudroom, much less with a powder room in the front hall,
was considered fancy. A 'master bath', for an upscale house, was often
little more than closet size, with a stall shower. There are still a
whole lot of sub-1000-foot pre-1960 houses out there, with even fewer
amenities. And at the time, they were considered perfectly fine. They
used to sell a lot more bunk beds than they do now. You didn't get your
own bedroom till your older sibling went away to school or got married,
or went into Army, or whatever.

--
aem sends...

On Feb 28, 10:49*am, Dean Hoffman wrote:
* * Have you driven a Ford lately?
* *GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. *The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.- Hide quoted text -

Have you driven a Ford lately?
GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Read that as ...... 'US automakers, reluctantly funded by the US
federal government'!

During previous decades the mantra was that 'private enterprise' and
the market place were 'self regulating'.
Huh; that didn't work and the desk chair wasn't even cool from the
previous president's posterior before the automakers were in
Washington looking for 'bail-outs'! The last 10 to 15 years have not
been good in the Good Ole USA, eh?

Governments don't 'want' to be in private business ...... it's not
something they do well. Maybe those automakers should have been
allowed to go under; at least no bonus for the ham handed executives
who took them to the edge.

And maybe all those workers in the auto industry who would have (and
might still?) lose their livelihood should be laid off and find other
jobs? But then the question would be 'what is the government doing
about it?'.

If one needs needs to buy a vehicle there are plenty of manufacturers
around the world, Japanese, Korean, European, even India and it won't
be long before China will be (or already is?) a big player. We have
found that the most suitable are Japanese, especially those
manufactured entirely in Japan! The last North America produced
Japanese vehicle we bought had problems with weather related items
such as wipers (it snows and vehicles ice up in North America by the
way!), also lousy North American made electrics that corroded quickly.
Since around 1967 Japanese vehicles, for example, in these parts have
gone from being described as a 'Toy' (remember those adverts?) to
somewhere around 50% of the vehicles on the road! In some Arab
countries, you know the ones that sell us our oil, and where they have
plenty of money to buy whatever they want (and several of them) the
percentage of North American style/manufactured vehicles is extremely
low.

Aside from vehicles; what is also noticeable as the world economy
starts to recover is that those countries that have better regulated
(that's regulated not governemnt run) financial systems are recovering
a lot more quickly. All this ranting about 'socialism', 'fascism',
'government involvement' etc. that the Americans who don't understand
any of it, indulge in is emotional.

It all harks back to the Senator McCarthy era where his 'Un American
Activities' committee could find a 'Commie' under every park bench or
in every movie script. Seems to be repeating the unfortunate trait of
blaming somebody else for what are obviously problems internal to the
country.

Maybe the USA needs a better system of government? One that is 'By the
people, for the people etc. .....'? It's seems obvious that the '
lobbying system' of government has disadvantages? One lobbyist gets
ahead (or what they want) and Joe/Jane citizen are left out.

Whether having an ordinary guy who put himself through college instead
of Texan oil sponsored millionaires as president will change anything
will have to be seen. Maybe too many vested interest to let him get
anything done?

Now back to housing ..............................

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. A bit like American cars
in fact. Useless and outdated.

Useless and outdated? Do you mean like British royalty?

On Feb 28, 9:56*am, harry wrote:

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. * Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation etc. *America is
twenty years behind the rest of the world. * A bit like American cars
in fact. *Useless and outdated.

harry. That's strange. Haven't visited the UK very often since leaving
some 50+ years ago but my limited experience of UK housing since
hasn't been very impressive. Much of the UK housing stock is old and
it is EXPENSIVE! also in short supply?

Visiting my sister in Farnborough (some 40 miles say from London?) in
year 2000 her so-called four bed-roomer which she was trying to sell
then (and I had offered to help her and my brother in law to move)
for around the equivalent of $620,000 dollars was not impressive. One
bedroom was no more than a box-room, it had no built in closets, one
bathroom and a small extra toilet wash-basin under the stairs with a
sloping headroom. There was insufficient room in the kitchen it
seemed for a full size fridge, so there was a small 'camper sized'
fridge with an equally small freezer below it with the door opening
the opposite way! The instant hot water sytem for showers was a bit
erratic and hard to use. It as summer time so no experience of winter
conditions. So can't recall what kind of heating it had. Also a very;
very, small attached
garage but no direct access to it from house. She did not sell at the
time but later for around $670,000. An equivalent house in North
America at the time would IMO have cost/sold no more than half that;
maybe $250,000 and in certain parts of the USA for around $200,000 or
less.

Again staying at a B & B near Heathrow around 2005 I was relegated to
what had probably been a council house down a side road, although it
was a nice area not far from Heathrow. It was quite a surprise not
having seen or lived in one of those since the 1950s! The whole house
was no more than 12 or at most 15 feet wide and was attached both
sides. The front door had originally opened into the front living
room! But it had been walled off and been converted into one of B&B
bedrooms. The staircase was narrow and the handrail was merely a strip
of wood on the wall. The shower didn't work and there was no bath
plug ...... but that's another story .............. There was no space
on the property to park a vehicle! The whole row should have been torn
down years ago.

Also stayed with old friend from school near Cheltenham. Smallish
detached house, again no built in closets, pleasant area, smallish
well kept garden. The small areas of grass could easily be trimmed
with a push-mower. Very small attached garage. Not big enough to work
on smallish car.

Visiting the big old house in Liverpool where we lived immediately
after WWII which was over 100 years old when we lived there in the
late 1940s, found it being converted to expensive flats. have since
seen/heard each flat sells for around $300,000! No garages at all!

This all electric four bedroom and large attached garage wood frame
house which we built in 1970, main construction taking about six
weeks, and then finishing it ourselves cost (then) less than $40,000
(about 2.5 times my gross annual salary), including land, a well and
septic tank. Now on municipal water and sewer. If built today it would
have thicker walls and more insulation etc. But it has worked well and
now coming up on a couple of major repair items; roof and driveway
replacements at today's prices plus 40 years of pretty easy self-
maintenance our annual total cost of housing, including heat/light,
municipal fees, insurance etc. etc. is estimated at around say $7000
to $8000. Say around 5000 UK pounds.

Following discussions on UK d-i-y (a do it yourself group) it sounds
as though insulation, use of vapour barriers, proper attic venting,
air exchangers for well sealed homes and double glazing are still not
universal in UK and that much of the housing is approaching 100 years
old? I do recall a one floor flat of a 53 year old house being on the
market in year 2000 for 130,000 UK pounds, wow, then well over
$200,000?

BTW what has happened to all those pre-fabs of the post war era. how
long did they last? Cheers.

On Feb 28, 10:18*am, terry wrote:
On Feb 28, 10:49*am, Dean Hoffman wrote:

* * Have you driven a Ford lately?
* *GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. *The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.- Hide quoted text -
* * Have you driven a Ford lately?
* *GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. *The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Read that as ...... 'US automakers, reluctantly funded by the US
federal government'!

During previous decades the mantra *was that 'private enterprise' and
the market place were 'self regulating'.
Huh; that didn't work and the desk chair wasn't even cool from the
previous president's posterior before the automakers were in
Washington looking for 'bail-outs'! The last 10 to 15 years have not
been good in the Good Ole USA, eh?

Governments don't 'want' to be in private business ...... it's not
something they do well.

LOL. Yeah, that's why Obama and the Dems are so hell bent on taking
control of healthcare, prefering a public option and rejecting
outright any number of simple steps that could be taken a few at a
time to bring needed reform. Let's take for example eliminating
roadblocks so that any health insurance company can sell it's products
anywhere in the USA across state lines. If you're is in favor of
competition and private business, then this is a simple and very
logical step. Yet, Obama laments the lack of competition and at the
same time refuses this simple proposal outright. Of course if the
competition came from govt, then it would be OK. Even worse, despite
being asked many times why he's opposed, he has yet to give an
answer. Last Thursday, at the meeting to explore reaching some kind
of agreement, the Obama answer was he didn't want to get bogged down
in "talking points"


Maybe those automakers should have been
allowed to go under; at least no bonus for the ham handed executives
who took them to the edge.

And maybe all those workers in the auto industry who would have (and
might still?) lose their livelihood should be laid off and find other
jobs? But then the question would be 'what is the government doing
about it?'.

If one needs needs to buy a vehicle there are plenty of manufacturers
around the world, Japanese, Korean, European, even India and it won't
be long before China will be (or already is?) a big player. We have
found that the most suitable are Japanese, especially those
manufactured entirely in Japan! The last North America produced
Japanese vehicle we bought had problems with weather related items
such as wipers (it snows and vehicles ice up in North America by the
way!), also lousy North American made electrics that corroded quickly.

I guess those Toyota cars, most of which are built in Japan, that are
killing people and causing runaway accidents are crowning examples of
Japanese achievement. And if everything built in NA were crap, then
there would be a hell of a lot of BMWs, Hondas, MBs etc that would be
having all kinds of problems.




Since around 1967 Japanese vehicles, for example, in these parts have
gone from being described as a 'Toy' (remember those adverts?) to
somewhere around 50% of the vehicles on the road! In some Arab
countries, you know the ones that sell us our oil, and where they have
plenty of money to buy whatever they want (and several of them) the
percentage of North American style/manufactured vehicles is extremely
low.

Who cares what anyone drives in some Arab countries? But for the
record, HumVees seem to be very popular over there. Where are they
built?




Aside from vehicles; what is also noticeable as the world economy
starts to recover is that those countries that have better regulated
(that's regulated not governemnt run) financial systems are recovering
a lot more quickly.

Yeah, China is having a boom at the moment. Does that make communism
the best system? Last time I checked the US economy was and
continues to be heavily regulated. Does that mean that the system
will forsee and prevent everything that can go wrong? Of course
not. Hindsight is 20-20. And if the govt is so much better, why did
FNMA and FreddieMac, which are quasi govt agencies go bust too?
Wasn't it Congressman Barney Frank, who's committee has supervisory
authority, proclaim all was well just about a year before everything
hit the fan?




All this ranting about 'socialism', 'fascism',
'government involvement' etc. that the Americans who don't understand
any of it, indulge in is emotional.

I think many of us here understand it a lot better than you.





It all harks back to the Senator McCarthy era where his 'Un American
Activities' committee could find a 'Commie' under every park bench or
in every movie script. Seems to be repeating the unfortunate trait of
blaming somebody else for what are obviously problems internal to the
country.

Maybe the USA needs a better system of government?

You have a govt that now owns GM and is seeking to take over 16% of
the rest of the economy. At the same time they reject private free
market easy solutions out of hand. Obama regularly rails against all
kinds of businesses: Wall Street, Las Vegas, Insurance companies,
Drug companies, etc. That indeed is moving toward socialism.





One that is 'By the
people, for the people etc. .....'? It's seems obvious that the '
lobbying system' of government has disadvantages? One lobbyist gets
ahead (or what they want) and Joe/Jane citizen are left out.

And where and under what system of govt exactly is it that this does
not occur?




Whether having an ordinary guy who put himself through college instead
of Texan oil sponsored millionaires as president will change anything
will have to be seen. Maybe too many vested interest to let him get
anything done?



It's definitely changed things. And just looking at the poll numbers
the people clearly don't like that change. When a Republican wins a
Senate seat held by Ted Kennedy and becomes the first Republican
senator from MA in 35 years, the hand writing is on the wall. And
those that are too arrogant to read it, eg Obama and the Dems, will
pay the price.

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:32:16 -0500, aemeijers
wrote:

harry wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. A bit like American cars
in fact. Useless and outdated.

How's British Leylands working out for ya? Lucas?

Okay, yeah, maybe most US houses are on the lightweight side. What can I
say? Material and land and energy used to be cheap here. House falls
down, move a mile further out and build a new one. Can't do that in UK-
no room. And while new construction may be more energy-efficient on that
side of the pond, what percentage of the existing housing stock is built
to those standards?

But for somebody from UK to call US cars crappy? Pot-Kettle-Black, etc.
At least we still have a couple of US-owned manufacturers left.

....and when AIM says "US-owned", he means owned by the _US_OWNED_. ;-)

wrote:
On Feb 28, 10:18 am, terry wrote:
On Feb 28, 10:49 am, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Have you driven a Ford lately?
GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.- Hide quoted text -
Have you driven a Ford lately?
GM and Chrysler don't count anymore to me. The Feds have those two
companies in their grimy mitts.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Read that as ...... 'US automakers, reluctantly funded by the US
federal government'!

During previous decades the mantra was that 'private enterprise' and
the market place were 'self regulating'.
Huh; that didn't work and the desk chair wasn't even cool from the
previous president's posterior before the automakers were in
Washington looking for 'bail-outs'! The last 10 to 15 years have not
been good in the Good Ole USA, eh?

Governments don't 'want' to be in private business ...... it's not
something they do well.

LOL. Yeah, that's why Obama and the Dems are so hell bent on taking
control of healthcare, prefering a public option and rejecting
outright any number of simple steps that could be taken a few at a
time to bring needed reform. Let's take for example eliminating
roadblocks so that any health insurance company can sell it's products
anywhere in the USA across state lines. If you're is in favor of
competition and private business, then this is a simple and very
logical step. Yet, Obama laments the lack of competition and at the
same time refuses this simple proposal outright. Of course if the
competition came from govt, then it would be OK. Even worse, despite
being asked many times why he's opposed, he has yet to give an
answer. Last Thursday, at the meeting to explore reaching some kind
of agreement, the Obama answer was he didn't want to get bogged down
in "talking points"


Maybe those automakers should have been
allowed to go under; at least no bonus for the ham handed executives
who took them to the edge.

And maybe all those workers in the auto industry who would have (and
might still?) lose their livelihood should be laid off and find other
jobs? But then the question would be 'what is the government doing
about it?'.

If one needs needs to buy a vehicle there are plenty of manufacturers
around the world, Japanese, Korean, European, even India and it won't
be long before China will be (or already is?) a big player. We have
found that the most suitable are Japanese, especially those
manufactured entirely in Japan! The last North America produced
Japanese vehicle we bought had problems with weather related items
such as wipers (it snows and vehicles ice up in North America by the
way!), also lousy North American made electrics that corroded quickly.

I guess those Toyota cars, most of which are built in Japan, that are
killing people and causing runaway accidents are crowning examples of
Japanese achievement. And if everything built in NA were crap, then
there would be a hell of a lot of BMWs, Hondas, MBs etc that would be
having all kinds of problems.




Since around 1967 Japanese vehicles, for example, in these parts have
gone from being described as a 'Toy' (remember those adverts?) to
somewhere around 50% of the vehicles on the road! In some Arab
countries, you know the ones that sell us our oil, and where they have
plenty of money to buy whatever they want (and several of them) the
percentage of North American style/manufactured vehicles is extremely
low.

Who cares what anyone drives in some Arab countries? But for the
record, HumVees seem to be very popular over there. Where are they
built?



Aside from vehicles; what is also noticeable as the world economy
starts to recover is that those countries that have better regulated
(that's regulated not governemnt run) financial systems are recovering
a lot more quickly.

Yeah, China is having a boom at the moment. Does that make communism
the best system? Last time I checked the US economy was and
continues to be heavily regulated. Does that mean that the system
will forsee and prevent everything that can go wrong? Of course
not. Hindsight is 20-20. And if the govt is so much better, why did
FNMA and FreddieMac, which are quasi govt agencies go bust too?
Wasn't it Congressman Barney Frank, who's committee has supervisory
authority, proclaim all was well just about a year before everything
hit the fan?




All this ranting about 'socialism', 'fascism',
'government involvement' etc. that the Americans who don't understand
any of it, indulge in is emotional.

I think many of us here understand it a lot better than you.




It all harks back to the Senator McCarthy era where his 'Un American
Activities' committee could find a 'Commie' under every park bench or
in every movie script. Seems to be repeating the unfortunate trait of
blaming somebody else for what are obviously problems internal to the
country.

Maybe the USA needs a better system of government?

You have a govt that now owns GM and is seeking to take over 16% of
the rest of the economy. At the same time they reject private free
market easy solutions out of hand. Obama regularly rails against all
kinds of businesses: Wall Street, Las Vegas, Insurance companies,
Drug companies, etc. That indeed is moving toward socialism.





One that is 'By the
people, for the people etc. .....'? It's seems obvious that the '
lobbying system' of government has disadvantages? One lobbyist gets
ahead (or what they want) and Joe/Jane citizen are left out.

And where and under what system of govt exactly is it that this does
not occur?



Whether having an ordinary guy who put himself through college instead
of Texan oil sponsored millionaires as president will change anything
will have to be seen. Maybe too many vested interest to let him get
anything done?



It's definitely changed things. And just looking at the poll numbers
the people clearly don't like that change. When a Republican wins a
Senate seat held by Ted Kennedy and becomes the first Republican
senator from MA in 35 years, the hand writing is on the wall. And
those that are too arrogant to read it, eg Obama and the Dems, will
pay the price.


I'm amazed at the people who watched Affirmative Action lending destroy
the home mortgage business and they now believe an Affirmative Action
politician can fix everything. Oh great teleprompter in the sky, please
save us.

TDD

In article
,
says...
On Feb 28, 2:13*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.


I find this very hard to believe. What are typical R values for walls and
ceilings in the UK? How are your more efficient windows constructed? What
draft proof methods do you prefer?

In most areas of the US, new homes must pass the Residential Energy Check
which trades off insulation values and better windows and doors, with heating
and cooling efficiency. The higher the furnace efficiency, the less
unsulation you are required to have, etc.

My house (in Ohio) passed in 2005 using the 2003 ResCheck. I needed walls
with R 13 cavities and R 3.3 foam panels on the outside. The ceilings are R
30 or 40, floors are R 19 over semi conditioned space, (not open to the
outside air).

A friend is building a home nearby and by the 2008 standards has to have R 13
walls with R 6.5 foam panels, and R 49 ceilings, this is with a geo-thermal
heat pump.

I think my home is pretty average. Are you saying the homes on the UK have R
70 walls and R 120 ceilings?


--
Dennis

wrote:

LOL. Yeah, that's why Obama and the Dems are so hell bent on taking
control of healthcare, prefering a public option and rejecting
outright any number of simple steps that could be taken a few at a
time to bring needed reform. Let's take for example eliminating
roadblocks so that any health insurance company can sell it's products
anywhere in the USA across state lines. If you're is in favor of
competition and private business, then this is a simple and very
logical step. Yet, Obama laments the lack of competition and at the
same time refuses this simple proposal outright. Of course if the
competition came from govt, then it would be OK. Even worse, despite
being asked many times why he's opposed, he has yet to give an
answer. Last Thursday, at the meeting to explore reaching some kind
of agreement, the Obama answer was he didn't want to get bogged down
in "talking points"


Their argument is that there will be "race to the bottom" as each insurance
company narrows more and more its coverage in order to offer lower rates.

I think the reason is more insidious.

There are states that mandate dodgy coverage: Chiropractic, holistic
medicine, herbal or aroma therapy, Naturopathy, and the like, plus they
mandate coverage for arguably non-medical conditions such as alcoholism,
hair transplants, birth-control pills, tattoo removal, and so on. These
requirements significantly raise the cost to all but were put in place by
high-decibel advocates.

Permitting sales across state lines would put pressure on these insurers to
get out of the voodoo business to the disquiet of the new age types who
would have crystals in every hospital room.

Of course the Republicans are not immune to unproven therapies. We
conservatives believe that tax cuts can cure cancer and alleviate bee bites.

DT wrote:


I find this very hard to believe. What are typical R values for walls
and ceilings in the UK? How are your more efficient windows
constructed? What draft proof methods do you prefer?

In most areas of the US, new homes must pass the Residential Energy
Check which trades off insulation values and better windows and
doors, with heating and cooling efficiency. The higher the furnace
efficiency, the less unsulation you are required to have, etc.

My house (in Ohio) passed in 2005 using the 2003 ResCheck. I needed
walls with R 13 cavities and R 3.3 foam panels on the outside. The
ceilings are R 30 or 40, floors are R 19 over semi conditioned space,
(not open to the outside air).

A friend is building a home nearby and by the 2008 standards has to
have R 13 walls with R 6.5 foam panels, and R 49 ceilings, this is
with a geo-thermal heat pump.

I think my home is pretty average. Are you saying the homes on the UK
have R 70 walls and R 120 ceilings?

Many homes in the UK are so small they can be acclimatized in the winter
with mere body heat. Maybe one dog.

On Feb 28, 7:13*pm, DT wrote:
In article
,
says...





On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294....

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.

I find this very hard to believe. What are typical R values for walls and
ceilings in the UK? How are your more efficient windows constructed? What
draft proof methods do you prefer?

In most areas of the US, new homes must pass the Residential Energy Check
which trades off insulation values and better windows and doors, with heating
and cooling efficiency. The higher the furnace efficiency, the less
unsulation you are required to have, etc.

If that's true, it's surely one of the stupidist examples of govt in
action. What good is a higher efficiency furnace if you're then
going to back off on the amount of insulation? Why save money in one
place, just to throw it out in another?





My house (in Ohio) passed in 2005 using the 2003 ResCheck. I needed walls
with R 13 cavities and R 3.3 foam panels on the outside. The ceilings are R
30 or 40, floors are R 19 over semi conditioned space, (not open to the
outside air).

A friend is building a home nearby and by the 2008 standards has to have R 13
walls with R 6.5 foam panels, and R 49 ceilings, this is with a geo-thermal
heat pump.

I think my home is pretty average. Are you saying the homes on the UK have R
70 walls and R 120 ceilings?

--
Dennis- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

By this writing, either you are attempting humor,
or displaying ignorance.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"HeyBub" wrote in message
news
Of course the Republicans are not immune to
unproven therapies. We
conservatives believe that tax cuts can cure
cancer and alleviate bee bites.

In article
,
says...
On Feb 28, 7:13*pm, DT wrote:
In article
,
says...





On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan -
and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000
units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.

I find this very hard to believe. What are typical R values for walls and
ceilings in the UK? How are your more efficient windows constructed? What
draft proof methods do you prefer?

In most areas of the US, new homes must pass the Residential Energy Check
which trades off insulation values and better windows and doors, with
heating
and cooling efficiency. The higher the furnace efficiency, the less
unsulation you are required to have, etc.

If that's true, it's surely one of the stupidist examples of govt in
action. What good is a higher efficiency furnace if you're then
going to back off on the amount of insulation? Why save money in one
place, just to throw it out in another?


It just sets a *minimum* standard for BTUs per square foot to ensure a
reasonably efficient home. You can always build to a higher efficiency. That
required efficiency has risen over the years. REScheck is pass/fail, there is
no fudging by the building department. The REScheck software generates a score
and it must reach a certain BTU/sf, depending on where you live. The scoring
page states "pass" or "fail". If you don't pass, you don't get the building
permit. If you pass by 20%, so much the better.

You can download REScheck or run it on the web. It works in near real time,
you change the window sizes in one room, for instance, and a new score
appears. You can experiment with different options to see what you would
rather do. If you want lots of huge windows, you are going to need higher
insulation. Judging from what my friend has been going through it would be
extremely hard to pass the latest versions with an 80% furnace in my area.

http://www.energycodes.gov/rescheck/

It also offers pre-approved packages. As long as you meet each insulation
level and window U factor, the home passes automatically. I couldn't use this
approach with my home, since part of it was existing and I added a second
story addition. Since I had a few areas which were less than the specified
insulation or U factors, I had to increase the insulation in other areas to
pass.


--
Dennis

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:56:39 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:


When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.

Where did you visit? Much of the U.S. doesn't need much insulation.
I bet if you visited a recent minnisota house, you'd find insulation superior
to any brit house. Their requirements dwarf yours.

On Mar 1, 9:50*am, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:56:39 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.

Where did you visit? *Much of the U.S. doesn't need much insulation.
I bet if you visited a recent minnisota house, you'd find insulation superior
to any brit house. *Their requirements dwarf yours.

I haven't been to the UK except on a plane connection, but I've lived
in both Germany and Minnesota. (roughly same latitude)

There is just no comparison. The biggest difference is inflitration.
Minnesota houses were built like a sieve, air almost blows through
them. The German houses showed how tight you can get with proper
attention to construction detail - they had so few air changes per day
(not per hour) that most people open windows to ventilate. (yeah,
seems counterproductive, but humidity would build up) The German
windows really seal and really insulate, while being operable (tilt or
close).

On Mar 1, 9:10*am, wrote:
On Feb 28, 7:13*pm, DT wrote:





In article
,
says...

On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294....

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.

I find this very hard to believe. What are typical R values for walls and
ceilings in the UK? How are your more efficient windows constructed? What
draft proof methods do you prefer?

In most areas of the US, new homes must pass the Residential Energy Check
which trades off insulation values and better windows and doors, with heating
and cooling efficiency. The higher the furnace efficiency, the less
unsulation you are required to have, etc.

If that's true, it's surely one of the stupidist examples of govt in
action. * What good is a higher efficiency furnace if you're then
going to back off on the amount of insulation? * Why save money in one
place, just to throw it out in another?





My house (in Ohio) passed in 2005 using the 2003 ResCheck. I needed walls
with R 13 cavities and R 3.3 foam panels on the outside. The ceilings are R
30 or 40, floors are R 19 over semi conditioned space, (not open to the
outside air).

A friend is building a home nearby and by the 2008 standards has to have R 13
walls with R 6.5 foam panels, and R 49 ceilings, this is with a geo-thermal
heat pump.

I think my home is pretty average. Are you saying the homes on the UK have R
70 walls and R 120 ceilings?

--
Dennis- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is a good question to be asking ...........' Why spend money on
energy losses when, by a much larger investment at today's prices one
could reduce it considerably?'

But it can be a matter of current 'economics'. Living, as we are, in a
typical 1970s stick built, fully paid for, North American house, we
might be able, say, to cut our energy costs in half . Oh goody, eh?

But do so would either mean selling and building/buying a newer better
insulated house etc. and/or gutting this one entirely and rebuilding
it! Both alternatives would be costly. At least $50,000 to $100,000.

To get any 'significant' savings in energy costs one estimate of the
cost would require one to amortize something of the order of at least
$50,000 (maybe more) at an annual of cost of around $6000, in order to
reduce our annual energy cost from around $3500 per annum by 50% or
$1750.

In other words $6000 per year (next 10 years) to save $1750; it's not
economic!

A similar situation can exist with a motor vehicle; e.g. the 2002
model V6 we have at the moment, originally bought for operating a
small business does not get very good gas mileage. But at this stage
it is driven so little that fuel consumption is not a significant cost
factor. So again it is not economic to replace it until it becomes
absolutely necessary. If one were a 'travelling salesman' , for
example,. then gas mileage could be a most significant factor.

In the meantime one can do some normal things to improve one's
existing home; without getting involved in any of those governemnt
subsidized schemes, which, in Canada anyway, seem to require masses of
bureaucracy! Declaration of ones income for last few years, address,
blood type of your first born, when you last visited the USA and how
many times per week you and your spouse (or significant other) get it
on! Well that is a 'bit' of an exaggeration! But the previous time we
had taken advantage of a government funded 'Better insulation scheme'
it ended up in my income tax!

Seriously though: The governemnt of Canada have just ceased offering
an incentive that provided, on expenditures of up to $10,000 a maximum
subsidy of $1,350 (13.5%). Considering that at least 50% of any
$10,000 insulation upgrade may be labour, a better course in our case
was to buy the materials and o the work ourselves, as convenient (and
from time to as material was on sale?). That subsidy/incentive (now no
longer available) on say $5000 was 15% on anything over the first
$1000, so on $5000 = $600! So, an overall cost of say $4,400 in order
to make some slight reduction, maybe $50 per month? in energy costs.
That does seem a little more economic although the $50 per month
reduction may be a bit optimistic.

On Mar 1, 9:17*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
By this writing, either you are attempting humor,
or displaying ignorance.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"HeyBub" wrote in message

news
Of course the Republicans are not immune to
unproven therapies. We
conservatives believe that tax cuts can cure
cancer and alleviate bee bites.

Witness the sorry state of the USA at end of 2008!!!!!!!!!!

I would certainly like to replace
my ( single pane ) windows with storms.

As I understand it, you get "tax credits" for your costs.
I'm a SeniorCitizen living pretty much on Social Security.
I don't have enough income to pay federal taxes.
So Tax Credits would be useless to me.



On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:13:35 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...t/4347294.html

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

I'd sure like a serious cut in government taxes,
and a cut in the services which are not dictated
by the Constitution. The sorry state of the US is
in large part due to government intervention.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"terry" wrote in
message
...

Witness the sorry state of the USA at end of
2008!!!!!!!!!!

On Mar 1, 4:52�pm, terry wrote:
On Mar 1, 9:10�am, wrote:





On Feb 28, 7:13�pm, DT wrote:

In article
,
says...

On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294...

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site..
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing..

I find this very hard to believe. What are typical R values for walls and
ceilings in the UK? How are your more efficient windows constructed? What
draft proof methods do you prefer?

In most areas of the US, new homes must pass the Residential Energy Check
which trades off insulation values and better windows and doors, with heating
and cooling efficiency. The higher the furnace efficiency, the less
unsulation you are required to have, etc.

If that's true, it's surely one of the stupidist examples of govt in
action. � What good is a higher efficiency furnace if you're then
going to back off on the amount of insulation? � Why save money in one
place, just to throw it out in another?

My house (in Ohio) passed in 2005 using the 2003 ResCheck. I needed walls
with R 13 cavities and R 3.3 foam panels on the outside. The ceilings are R
30 or 40, floors are R 19 over semi conditioned space, (not open to the
outside air).

A friend is building a home nearby and by the 2008 standards has to have R 13
walls with R 6.5 foam panels, and R 49 ceilings, this is with a geo-thermal
heat pump.

I think my home is pretty average. Are you saying the homes on the UK have R
70 walls and R 120 ceilings?

--
Dennis- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is a good question to be asking ...........' Why spend money on
energy losses when, by a much larger investment at today's prices one
could reduce it considerably?'

But it can be a matter of current 'economics'. Living, as we are, in a
typical 1970s stick built, fully paid for, North American house, we
might be able, say, to cut our energy costs in half . Oh goody, eh?

But do so would either mean selling and building/buying a newer better
insulated house etc. and/or gutting this one entirely and rebuilding
it! Both alternatives would be costly. At least $50,000 to $100,000.

To get any 'significant' savings in energy costs one estimate of the
cost would require one to amortize something of the order of at least
$50,000 (maybe more) at an annual of cost of around $6000, in order to
reduce our annual energy cost from around $3500 per annum by 50% or
$1750.

In other words $6000 per year (next 10 years) to save $1750; it's not
economic!

A similar situation can exist with a motor vehicle; e.g. the 2002
model V6 we have at the moment, originally bought for operating a
small business �does not get very good gas mileage. But at this stage
it is driven so little that fuel consumption is not a significant cost
factor. So again it is not economic to replace it until it becomes
absolutely necessary. If one were a 'travelling salesman' , for
example,. then gas mileage could be a most significant factor.

In the meantime one can do some normal things to improve one's
existing home; without getting involved in any of those governemnt
subsidized schemes, which, in Canada anyway, seem to require masses of
bureaucracy! Declaration of ones income for last few years, address,
blood type of your first born, when you last visited the USA and how
many times per week you and your spouse (or significant other) get it
on! Well that is a 'bit' of an exaggeration! �But the previous time we
had taken advantage of a government funded 'Better insulation scheme'
it ended up in my income tax!

Seriously though: The governemnt of Canada have just ceased offering
an incentive that provided, on expenditures of up to $10,000 a maximum
subsidy of $1,350 (13.5%). Considering that at least 50% of any
$10,000 insulation upgrade may be labour, a better course in our case
was to buy the materials and o the work ourselves, as convenient (and
from time to as material was on sale?). That subsidy/incentive (now no
longer available) on say $5000 was 15% on anything over the first
$1000, so on $5000 = $600! So, an overall cost of say $4,400 in order
to make some slight reduction, maybe $50 per month? in energy costs.
That does seem a little more economic although the $50 per month
reduction may be a bit optimistic.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

`The whole problem is that Americans pay far too little for their
fuels of all types.This has led to them squandering the world's
resources. If your fuels price doubled (and they will) the economics
of fuel efficiency would become apparent.
The time to do it is now because the cost of insulating your house is
also related to fuel price. In ten years fuel will cost four times
what it is now. Only if you have "future proofed" your home will you
be saved.
My home is future proofed, I have 2 feet of insulation in my walls and
roof and need no furnace at all.
I wonder how the cost of houses in DC or New York compares with SEast
UK?

On Feb 28, 1:32�pm, aemeijers wrote:
harry wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294....

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. � Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. �America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. � A bit like American cars
in fact. �Useless and outdated.

Okay, yeah, maybe most US houses are on the lightweight side. What can I
say? Material and land and energy used to be cheap here. House falls
down, move a mile further out and build a new one. Can't do that in UK-
no room. And while new construction may be more energy-efficient on that
side of the pond, what percentage of the existing housing stock is built
to those standards?

But for somebody from UK to call US cars crappy? Pot-Kettle-Black, etc.
At least we still have a couple of US-owned manufacturers left.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Chinese have a virtual slave labour work force. We will never
compete with them. The only way to win is by innovation.

On Feb 28, 1:32�pm, aemeijers wrote:
harry wrote:
On Feb 28, 2:13 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan - and
other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000 units
planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio leads the
nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...vement/4347294....

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.
By UK standards, what I saw was abysmal in terms of energy efficiency.
Houses here in the UK have insulation around four times as
effective,not to mention more efficient windows and draught proofing.
This was Iowa. � Our average Winter temperature is maybe 35 deg F.
Iowa maybe 10?. I would say there was no way these houses could be
significantly improved by retrofitting insulation ect. �America is
twenty years behing the rest of the world. � A bit like American cars
in fact. �Useless and outdated.

Okay, yeah, maybe most US houses are on the lightweight side. What can I
say? Material and land and energy used to be cheap here. House falls
down, move a mile further out and build a new one. Can't do that in UK-
no room. And while new construction may be more energy-efficient on that
side of the pond, what percentage of the existing housing stock is built
to those standards?

But for somebody from UK to call US cars crappy? Pot-Kettle-Black, etc.
At least we still have a couple of US-owned manufacturers left.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
US government owned don't you mean?
Well we have a couple too. The ones we lost were mostly bought by
Yanks & then sold on.

terry wrote:
On Mar 1, 9:17 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
By this writing, either you are attempting humor,
or displaying ignorance.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"HeyBub" wrote in message

news
Of course the Republicans are not immune to
unproven therapies. We
conservatives believe that tax cuts can cure
cancer and alleviate bee bites.

Witness the sorry state of the USA at end of 2008!!!!!!!!!!

Good point.

Still, for eight years the unemployment rate dipped as low as 4%, extremely
low inflation, and 26 consecutive quarters of economic growth (a record).
All this in spite of two wars, Katrina, and 9-11.

What changed, in the last quarter of '08, was the impending inauguration of
Barak Obama.

But we still have hopey and changey; early next year the three Bush tax cuts
expire and the inheritance tax jumps to 55% (from 0% today).

In , HeyBub wrote in part:

SNIP to here

Still, for eight years the unemployment rate dipped as low as 4%, extremely
low inflation, and 26 consecutive quarters of economic growth (a record).
All this in spite of two wars, Katrina, and 9-11.

SNIP from here

We had 30 consecutive quarters of economic growth from the 2nd quarter
of 1993 through the third quarter of 2000.

http://economics.about.com/library/data/dataquar.xls

- Don Klipstein )

harry wrote:
(snip)

`The whole problem is that Americans pay far too little for their
fuels of all types.This has led to them squandering the world's
resources. If your fuels price doubled (and they will) the economics
of fuel efficiency would become apparent.
The time to do it is now because the cost of insulating your house is
also related to fuel price. In ten years fuel will cost four times
what it is now. Only if you have "future proofed" your home will you
be saved.
My home is future proofed, I have 2 feet of insulation in my walls and
roof and need no furnace at all.
I wonder how the cost of houses in DC or New York compares with SEast
UK?

No, we pay something close to what it actually costs. You folks in the
nanny states pay that, plus the confiscatory taxes your government
imposes because they think they know better than you do what is appropriate.

--
aem sends...

Don Klipstein wrote:
In , HeyBub wrote in
part:

SNIP to here

Still, for eight years the unemployment rate dipped as low as 4%,
extremely low inflation, and 26 consecutive quarters of economic
growth (a record). All this in spite of two wars, Katrina, and 9-11.

SNIP from here

We had 30 consecutive quarters of economic growth from the 2nd
quarter of 1993 through the third quarter of 2000.

http://economics.about.com/library/data/dataquar.xls

- Don Klipstein )

You're absolutely correct. Still, the Bush economic years were kinda like
the earthquake in Chile - not a record, but still pretty good.

No, wait...

On Mar 1, 10:03*pm, aemeijers wrote:
harry wrote:

(snip)



`The whole problem is that Americans pay far too little for their
fuels of all types.This has led to them squandering the world's
resources. *If your fuels price doubled (and they will) the economics
of fuel efficiency would become apparent.
The time to do it is now because the cost of insulating your house is
also related to fuel price. * In ten years fuel will cost four times
what it is now. *Only if you have "future proofed" your home will you
be saved.
My home is future proofed, I have 2 feet of insulation in my walls and
roof and need no furnace at all.
I wonder how the cost of houses in DC or New York compares with SEast
UK?

No, we pay something close to what it actually costs. You folks in the
nanny states pay that, plus the confiscatory taxes your government
imposes because they think they know better than you do what is appropriate.

--
aem sends...

And talk about squandering, it's the govts that take the money in the
form of high energy taxes that then squander it away on more nanny
state projects.

On Mar 1, 11:46*am, TimR wrote:
On Mar 1, 9:50*am, AZ Nomad wrote:

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:56:39 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
When I visited the USA a couple of years ago (I'm from the UK) I took
the opportunity to look round a few domestic house construction site.

Where did you visit? *Much of the U.S. doesn't need much insulation.
I bet if you visited a recent minnisota house, you'd find insulation superior
to any brit house. *Their requirements dwarf yours.

I haven't been to the UK except on a plane connection, but I've lived
in both Germany and Minnesota. *(roughly same latitude)

There is just no comparison. *The biggest difference is inflitration.
Minnesota houses were built like a sieve, air almost blows through
them. *The German houses showed how tight you can get with proper
attention to construction detail - they had so few air changes per day
(not per hour) that most people open windows to ventilate. *(yeah,
seems counterproductive, but humidity would build up) *The German
windows really seal and really insulate, while being operable (tilt or
close).

So these superior Germans who build these tight houses never heard of
heat recovery ventilators and instead leave the windows open? Maybe
they should come to the USA. My friend bought a 5 year old house
that has one.

HeyBub wrote:
Popular Mechanics article on the dismal failure of the stimulus-plan
- and other - weatherization projects.

It's not all bad, though. Ohio is going gang-busters! of the 32,000
units planned for attention, a whopping 2% have been processed. Ohio
leads the nation!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home...t/4347294.html

"I'm from the government and I'm here to dilly-dally."

---

If it didn't work and couldn't be made to work, the current administration
seems to demand more of it.

The president is in Savannah today to announce his "Cash for Caulkers"
program.

http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/...-for-caulkers/

harry wrote:

The Chinese have a virtual slave labour work force. We will never
compete with them. The only way to win is by innovation.

Old news, my friend. Maybe 20 years old. The Chinese are free to work where
they want, for who they want, for a wage they negotiate. Well, almost free to
work anywhere, there are some internal immigration controls, largely ignored.

At local levels, the Chinese are some of the most capitalistic, entrepreneurial
people you will ever meet.

Not so much at the national level. They are still figuring out capitalism and
the rule of law. Most especially, figuring out how to transition from a
totalitarian regime (20 years ago) to whatever version of democracy they
intend, while staying in power and avoiding revolution.

But your second point is spot on. We can't compete on raw labor. The Chinese
have too many people for whom $4 a day is a huge raise.

-- Doug