So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

Is it hard or soft copper pipe?

TDD

On 2/10/2010 12:24 AM Stepfann King spake thus:

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

247 degrees.

Nah, you're all mixed up; that's the maximum *temperature* of water you
can run through the pipes.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

"Zootal" wrote in message
. 97.131...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

More important is the type of bender you use. Depending on the radius, it
can go 180 degrees. A slight kink though, can cause damage to the wall and
failure.

Copper pipe comes in hardness grades. K, L, and M. K copper
(it's been years since I needed to know this) is soft, and
comes on rolls. L, and M are rigid and should not be bent if
possible.

Of course, the goal is to bend it as little as possible.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Zootal" wrote in message
. 97.131...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water,
~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without
risk of future
failure?

David Nebenzahl wrote in
.com:

On 2/10/2010 12:24 AM Stepfann King spake thus:

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

247 degrees.

Nah, you're all mixed up; that's the maximum *temperature* of water
you can run through the pipes.

Better keep it pressurized. Under "normal" conditions water at 247F (or C,
or even R) would be steam.

Ever had a good steam burn?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Stepfann King" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?


247 degrees.

Oh man, does that mean I need to unwind my coils?
Mike :-)

In article 31, Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

Question for you: why do you think you *need* to bend it?

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article 31,
Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

Question for you: why do you think you *need* to bend it?

Maybe it was a rhetorical question?

smirk

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Copper pipe comes in hardness grades. K, L, and M. K copper
(it's been years since I needed to know this) is soft, and
comes on rolls. L, and M are rigid and should not be bent if
possible.

Of course, the goal is to bend it as little as possible.


I have a tendency to use refrigeration grade soft copper for
everything because I can bend it and form my own fittings
with the tools I have. I rarely purchase couplings or elbows
since I can make my own.

TDD

On 2/10/2010 3:34 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/10/2010 12:24 AM Stepfann King spake thus:

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

247 degrees.

Nah, you're all mixed up; that's the maximum *temperature* of water you
can run through the pipes.


Silly that's the maximum velocity of the water..

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?


*Several years ago I worked on a job with an old timer plumber who mostly
bent his copper pipe instead of using elbows. He told me that there is one
grade of pipe that is used for bending, but not all plumbing supply's
carried it. He also had the proper benders for copper pipe. I don't
remember what the pipe was called.

Han wrote:

Better keep it pressurized. Under "normal" conditions water at 247F
(or C, or even R) would be steam.

Ever had a good steam burn?

Kids today, pfft. When I was a boy, we didn't have hot water, so we had to
bathe with the end of a steam nozzle me old man diverted from the boiler.
Sure it'd turn you red and remove some skin, but you sure did get clean!

Jon

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:53:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote Re Cooper pipe bending limits:



"Zootal" wrote in message
.97.131...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

More important is the type of bender you use. Depending on the radius, it
can go 180 degrees. A slight kink though, can cause damage to the wall and
failure.

One correct answer out of 10. Excellent for this NG.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

I've done that. Someone ran 3/8 soft copper under my
trailer, for the water line. The copper rubbed through at
some point, and started spraying. Find out that 1/2 OD
refrigeration works well. Silver braze works, too.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote
in message ...

I have a tendency to use refrigeration grade soft copper for
everything because I can bend it and form my own fittings
with the tools I have. I rarely purchase couplings or elbows
since I can make my own.

TDD

Most likely "K copper".

K with you?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city
water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without
risk of future
failure?


*Several years ago I worked on a job with an old timer
plumber who mostly
bent his copper pipe instead of using elbows. He told me
that there is one
grade of pipe that is used for bending, but not all plumbing
supply's
carried it. He also had the proper benders for copper pipe.
I don't
remember what the pipe was called.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Copper pipe comes in hardness grades. K, L, and M. K copper
(it's been years since I needed to know this) is soft, and
comes on rolls. L, and M are rigid and should not be bent if
possible.

Of course, the goal is to bend it as little as possible.


I have a tendency to use refrigeration grade soft copper for
everything because I can bend it and form my own fittings
with the tools I have. I rarely purchase couplings or elbows
since I can make my own.

TDD

K, L and M are wall thickness grades (like sch. 80, 40, 20) and have
nothing to do with hardness. Both soft copper and hard copper are
available in the different grades.

Refrigeration grade tubing is yet another thing, and mostly refers to
the fact that the tubing has been cleaned and capped to keep out
contamination that could damage refrigeration equipment with small
orifices, etc. Plumbing grade tubing isn't cleaned and capped since
water pipes can be readily flushed of impurities. Refrigeration grade
tubing is also specified by it's outside diameter vs. plumbing which is
specified by nominal ID.

On Feb 10, 12:55*am, Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

If bending is that much of a concern, why not just use PEX? You'll get
the job done in less time, too.

Joe

Most likely "soft copper". "K" copper designates the thickness.


Stormin Mormon wrote:
Most likely "K copper".

K with you?


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city
water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without
risk of future
failure?


*Several years ago I worked on a job with an old timer
plumber who mostly
bent his copper pipe instead of using elbows. He told me
that there is one
grade of pipe that is used for bending, but not all plumbing
supply's
carried it. He also had the proper benders for copper pipe.
I don't
remember what the pipe was called.

Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

You can bend soft copper as long as it doesn't kink. It is not code to heat hard
copper to get it to bend, as I understand it, and it won't bend well without
that.

On 2/10/2010 9:04 AM, Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:53:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote Re Cooper pipe bending limits:



wrote in message
. 97.131...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

More important is the type of bender you use. Depending on the radius, it
can go 180 degrees. A slight kink though, can cause damage to the wall and
failure.

One correct answer out of 10. Excellent for this NG.

How do you know it was correct? The OP omitted any details such as if
soft or hard copper tube was being used.

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:02:02 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote Re Cooper pipe bending limits:

"Caesar Romano" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:53:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote Re Cooper pipe bending limits:

One correct answer out of 10. Excellent for this NG.

You're catching on, Caesar! Most just don't know dookie, so have to post
something they think is funny in their impaired state of mind. There are
lots here who think because they "fix" things at home that they do it right,
but when you get to really talking to them about it, you realize that they
are just a bunch of baling wire and bubble gum repairmen who don't even know
how to properly bend a copper tube.

Well put.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Han wrote in news:Xns9D1B4F00DF3C4ikkezelf@
207.246.207.167:

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article 31,
Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

Question for you: why do you think you *need* to bend it?

Maybe it was a rhetorical question?

smirk


None of us realize the truth: there is no copper pipe...

"John Grabowski" wrote in
:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?


*Several years ago I worked on a job with an old timer plumber who
mostly bent his copper pipe instead of using elbows. He told me that
there is one grade of pipe that is used for bending, but not all
plumbing supply's carried it. He also had the proper benders for
copper pipe. I don't remember what the pipe was called.


Is there a "proper" bender for copper pipe? I have a bender made for 3/4
conduit, can that be used to bend copper?

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article 31,
Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

Question for you: why do you think you *need* to bend it?


There are a few places where it has to snake around a bit. Maybe a 10
degree bend here, maybe 5 degrees there. Not much, but I don't know what is
"too much". If bending is evil, I can simply use some 135 degree "elbows"
(what do you call the 135 degree bent couplers?) to make the necessary
bends. I bit more extra work, but I'm happy to do that instead of stressing
the pipe.


I'm using thicker stuff that is "approved" for being used behind walls, I
forget the letter designation that goes with it.

My bender is for 3/4 conduit - can that be used with 3/4 and 1/2 copper?

In one place I have two hot water connections and three for cold water.
Whoever did this ran five 1/2 pipes up through the floor (and my girls
complain about what happens to the shower water temp everytime someone
flushes the toilet). I see no reason not to run a set of hot/cold 3/4 pipes
up through the floor (two pipes going up, not five) and then tee off as
needed once I get where I'm going. Simpler, cleaner, uses less pipe.

Joe wrote in news:a9708303-e56b-490b-a562-bd8fc3d45bf2
@c4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

On Feb 10, 12:55*am, Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

If bending is that much of a concern, why not just use PEX? You'll get
the job done in less time, too.

Joe

Sharkbites cost WAY too much, so much that they offset the high cost of the
copper, and I don't know of any other way to make the connections (IANAP).
I don't trust them not to leak at some time in the future. I'm old
fashioned and want metal - solid metal - in my walls. Something soldered
together that will outlast the life of this old house :-)

"Caesar Romano" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:53:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote Re Cooper pipe bending limits:



"Zootal" wrote in message
6.97.131...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

More important is the type of bender you use. Depending on the radius, it
can go 180 degrees. A slight kink though, can cause damage to the wall
and
failure.

One correct answer out of 10. Excellent for this NG.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

You're catching on, Caesar! Most just don't know dookie, so have to post
something they think is funny in their impaired state of mind. There are
lots here who think because they "fix" things at home that they do it right,
but when you get to really talking to them about it, you realize that they
are just a bunch of baling wire and bubble gum repairmen who don't even know
how to properly bend a copper tube.

It may also be added that tubing bending can be improved by the use of
filler sand and pressurization to keep the outer walls pushing out. Of
course, this is only offered in the advance copper tubing bending course. I
would suggest to the OP and whoever else wants to bend copper to invest in a
good bender, or pick one up used whenever they see one. Or even make a
simple one. It makes for a much better job, and reduces failure rates.

Definitely not for the baling wire and bubble gum brigade.

Steve

Stepfann King wrote in
:

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?


247 degrees.

What radius?

Caesar Romano wrote in
:

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:53:56 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote Re Cooper pipe bending
limits:



"Zootal" wrote in message
6.97.131...
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city
water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without
risk of
future failure?

More important is the type of bender you use. Depending on
the
radius, it can go 180 degrees. A slight kink though, can
cause
damage to the wall and failure.

One correct answer out of 10. Excellent for this NG.

Naawww...this newsgroups is awesome. It is easily one of the
most polite and informative groups out there. Drop in on some
of the alt.windows... groups. It is amazing how many
adolescent children with absolutely no control over their
mouths are ranting and raving over usenet. I used to think
that I'd slap my kids silly if I caught them behaving like
that. Now it's more like I'd shoot my kids if I saw them
behaving like that...

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

None of us realize the truth: there is no copper pipe...

You'd call it "tube"? That's semantics, but it may be officially true.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

my girls
complain about what happens to the shower water temp everytime someone
flushes the toilet

We got that fixed with a Delta faucet that automagically adjusts the hot &
cold flows if the pressure changes. Look into that, or change the supply
lines to the toilet to 1/8" ID grin.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Copper pipe comes in hardness grades. K, L, and M. K copper
(it's been years since I needed to know this) is soft, and
comes on rolls. L, and M are rigid and should not be bent if
possible.

Of course, the goal is to bend it as little as possible.

I have a tendency to use refrigeration grade soft copper for
everything because I can bend it and form my own fittings
with the tools I have. I rarely purchase couplings or elbows
since I can make my own.

TDD

K, L and M are wall thickness grades (like sch. 80, 40, 20) and have
nothing to do with hardness. Both soft copper and hard copper are
available in the different grades.

Refrigeration grade tubing is yet another thing, and mostly refers to
the fact that the tubing has been cleaned and capped to keep out
contamination that could damage refrigeration equipment with small
orifices, etc. Plumbing grade tubing isn't cleaned and capped since
water pipes can be readily flushed of impurities. Refrigeration grade
tubing is also specified by it's outside diameter vs. plumbing which is
specified by nominal ID.

I do more HVAC and refrigeration work than plumbing so the pipe I
have on hand is refrigeration tubing. In order to get me to do any
plumbing work, you have to point a gun at me or torture me by the
crinkling a stack of hundred dollar bills in front of me ploy.

TDD

David Nebenzahl wrote the following:
On 2/10/2010 12:24 AM Stepfann King spake thus:

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

247 degrees.

Nah, you're all mixed up; that's the maximum *temperature* of water
you can run through the pipes.


No, thats the compass heading of the pipes.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

Zootal wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article 31,
Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?
Question for you: why do you think you *need* to bend it?


There are a few places where it has to snake around a bit. Maybe a 10
degree bend here, maybe 5 degrees there. Not much, but I don't know what is
"too much". If bending is evil, I can simply use some 135 degree "elbows"
(what do you call the 135 degree bent couplers?) to make the necessary
bends. I bit more extra work, but I'm happy to do that instead of stressing
the pipe.


I'm using thicker stuff that is "approved" for being used behind walls, I
forget the letter designation that goes with it.

My bender is for 3/4 conduit - can that be used with 3/4 and 1/2 copper?

In one place I have two hot water connections and three for cold water.
Whoever did this ran five 1/2 pipes up through the floor (and my girls
complain about what happens to the shower water temp everytime someone
flushes the toilet). I see no reason not to run a set of hot/cold 3/4 pipes
up through the floor (two pipes going up, not five) and then tee off as
needed once I get where I'm going. Simpler, cleaner, uses less pipe.


Did you even consider using PEX tubing for your plumbing or is copper
the only plumbing material you've had experience with?

TDD

Zootal wrote:

Joe wrote in news:a9708303-e56b-490b-a562-bd8fc3d45bf2
@c4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

On Feb 10, 12:55 am, Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

If bending is that much of a concern, why not just use PEX? You'll get
the job done in less time, too.

Joe

Sharkbites cost WAY too much, so much that they offset the high cost of the
copper, and I don't know of any other way to make the connections (IANAP).
I don't trust them not to leak at some time in the future. I'm old
fashioned and want metal - solid metal - in my walls. Something soldered
together that will outlast the life of this old house :-)

Sharkbites have nothing to do with PEX.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Copper pipe comes in hardness grades. K, L, and M. K copper
(it's been years since I needed to know this) is soft, and
comes on rolls. L, and M are rigid and should not be bent if
possible.

Of course, the goal is to bend it as little as possible.

I have a tendency to use refrigeration grade soft copper for
everything because I can bend it and form my own fittings
with the tools I have. I rarely purchase couplings or elbows
since I can make my own.

TDD

K, L and M are wall thickness grades (like sch. 80, 40, 20) and have
nothing to do with hardness. Both soft copper and hard copper are
available in the different grades.

Refrigeration grade tubing is yet another thing, and mostly refers to
the fact that the tubing has been cleaned and capped to keep out
contamination that could damage refrigeration equipment with small
orifices, etc. Plumbing grade tubing isn't cleaned and capped since
water pipes can be readily flushed of impurities. Refrigeration grade
tubing is also specified by it's outside diameter vs. plumbing which is
specified by nominal ID.

I do more HVAC and refrigeration work than plumbing so the pipe I
have on hand is refrigeration tubing. In order to get me to do any
plumbing work, you have to point a gun at me or torture me by the
crinkling a stack of hundred dollar bills in front of me ploy.

TDD

I do whatever work I need to do, in the interest of knowing the job was
done correctly, as well as being more self sufficient and saving a few
bucks. If it gives me an excuse to buy new tools, even better.

"Zootal" wrote in message
. 97.131...
Stepfann King wrote in
:

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?


247 degrees.

What radius?

Let me say that I do not know. I cannot give you a definite answer, but the
variables a diameter of the tubing; copper alloy you want to bend; if
you fill the copper with sand or not; if you pressurize it or not;
temperature of the copper; type of bender; whether it is a plain one die
bender or one with a mandrel (two piece); how fast you make the bend; and a
couple of other things.

I'd Google and get some copper suppliers and people who really do this a
lot, and use their answers.

For most home repair apps, a simple bender is better than no bender. But
the technique will affect the results greatly.

Lastly, how critical of an application is this? IIRC, you did say it was
for 60 # water line. Make your radii as big as you can, even if it means
adjusting elsewhere for the bend. If you just really have to have a tight
90, buy a compression fitting or sweat a 90 on there.

Get some scrap and play with it. Realize the scrap may not have the same
properties as new, but it will give you an idea about the failure points.
I'd do it in a warm room, and not a cold garage, or outside in the snow.
Use a heat lamp or similar to warm the copper before bending.

HTH

Steve

In article 31, Zootal wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article 31,
Zootal wrote:
So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?

Question for you: why do you think you *need* to bend it?


There are a few places where it has to snake around a bit. Maybe a 10
degree bend here, maybe 5 degrees there. Not much, but I don't know what is
"too much". If bending is evil, I can simply use some 135 degree "elbows"
(what do you call the 135 degree bent couplers?) to make the necessary
bends. I bit more extra work, but I'm happy to do that instead of stressing
the pipe.

It's a better idea. They're called 45-degree ells.

On 2/10/2010 4:12 AM amdx spake thus:

"Stepfann King" wrote in message
...

Zootal wrote in
. 97.131:

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of future
failure?

247 degrees.

Oh man, does that mean I need to unwind my coils?

Nope. Just watch out for them revenooers ...


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

So I'm installing 1/2 and 3/4 copper water pipe, city water, ~60psi.
Question - how much can you safely bend the pipe without risk of
future failure?


*Several years ago I worked on a job with an old timer plumber who
mostly bent his copper pipe instead of using elbows. He told me that
there is one grade of pipe that is used for bending, but not all
plumbing supply's carried it. He also had the proper benders for
copper pipe. I don't remember what the pipe was called.


Is there a "proper" bender for copper pipe? I have a bender made for 3/4
conduit, can that be used to bend copper?



*There are benders for copper available. They look similar to my conduit
benders. I have never tried to bend copper pipe.