(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
a difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a
bathroom is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been?
The only thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to
paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
ground (whatever that is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to
just offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the
work done themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow
getting estimates.

On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
a difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a
bathroom is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been?
The only thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to
paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
ground (whatever that is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to
just offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the
work done themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow
getting estimates.

Not very hard to do at all. Just shut the power off to that room and
test it with a radio or lamp if you don't have a tester. The GF
recepticals cost more than the usual ones but are no harder to
install. I'm guessin' you only have one receptical per bath room, most
do. You can DIY easily.

Not sure about the code thing. (guessin' again) If there isn't GFI,
there are probably other important things that aren't code either.

They may want a certified electrician to do it as well. So, my earlier
suggestion may not work. But, again, they're easy to do..

On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B
wrote:

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to
just offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the
work done themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow
getting estimates.

When your house was built one can only assume it was built to the code
in effect at that time. With that said, your current wiring is
grandfathered to that configuration if you do no remodeling.

Updating to GFCI outlets is not required. It may be desired by the
potential buyer but it isn't required. If that is all that stands in
the way of the sale...

Gordon Shumway

What color do Smurfs become when they hold their breath?

Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
a difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a
bathroom is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been?
The only thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to
paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
ground (whatever that is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to
just offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the
work done themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow
getting estimates.


You're not required to do anything here.

If the switchbox is big enough, you should replace the 2-prong
outlet in the hall bathroom with a GFCI outlet. There will be a
tiny sticker in the box that says "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND" and you
should apply that sticker to the cover plate. All this will cost
you about $8 total and you can do it yourself if you are handy at all.

Let the buyers take care of the basement bath themselves; they will
probably want to pick a different medicine cabinet anyway.

Bob

"Lee B" wrote in message
...

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so this
is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be installed
in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes a
difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a bathroom
is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been? The only
thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to paint, and
have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong outlet near
the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online that says these
can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment ground (whatever that
is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to just
offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the work done
themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow getting
estimates.

These days it's hard to determine "what's required", as your locality pretty
much can require anything they want. Typically, when a house is built, a
certificate of occupancy is issued, and grandfathered unless additional
renovation or expansion to the building is done. In your case, you may not
have grounded wiring, so I would leave any "upgrades" to the new owners. As
far as electrical wiring and National electric code goes, there is not a
stitch of wiring in your house that would comply with current standards, so
why stop at GFCI outlets

On Nov 1, 4:45*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Lee B" wrote in message

...





(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so this
is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be installed
in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes a
difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a bathroom
is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been? The only
thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to paint, and
have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong outlet near
the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online that says these
can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment ground (whatever that
is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to just
offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the work done
themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow getting
estimates.

These days it's hard to determine "what's required", as your locality pretty
much can require anything they want. Typically, when a house is built, a
certificate of occupancy is issued, and grandfathered unless additional
renovation or expansion to the building is done. In your case, you may not
have grounded wiring, so I would leave any "upgrades" to the new owners. As
far as electrical wiring and National electric code goes, there is not a
stitch of wiring in your house that would comply with current standards, so
why stop at GFCI outlets

I agree with RBM. There is *alot* of work needed to bring this house
up to safe standard, and alot more to bring it up to code. I suggest
offering the buyer some money in lieu of fixing these few electrical
issues. They'll probably jump at it since they were going to have it
fixed up even more anyway. It would cost an you about $100 (+/-) to
have an electrician come out and do the basic changes, about $70 for
labor and the rest in parts.

Good luck,

teabird wrote:

I agree with RBM. There is *alot* of work needed to bring this house
up to safe standard, and alot more to bring it up to code. I suggest
offering the buyer some money in lieu of fixing these few electrical
issues. They'll probably jump at it since they were going to have it
fixed up even more anyway. It would cost an you about $100 (+/-) to
have an electrician come out and do the basic changes, about $70 for
labor and the rest in parts.

Good luck,



I agree with this too, mostly, but replacing that one 2-prong outlet
buys a lot of safety for about $7 or $8; it's a nice gesture.

I wouldn't give them any money for fixing the electrical (unless you
are desperate to sell.) The old electrical system is already
assumed in your asking price. If they want a new house, they should
buy a new house and expect to pay accordingly.

Bob

RBM wrote:
....
I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. ...
....
These days it's hard to determine "what's required", ...

Nothing is required legally almost certainly.

Virtually all that is required in any jurisdiction will be the
disclosure form; it's up to the buyer to decide whether the condition of
the house is what they're willing to accept or not contingent on
offer/counter-offer.

Asking for items on an inspection report to be fixed is pretty common;
I'd be like somebody else here and do the one or two GFCI's as they're
essentially no-cost, trivial items.

You can, of course, make the counter-offer of some $$ in lieu, but this
is so trivial I'd not bother.

Folks here seem to get terribly uptight over 2-wire wiring, etc., but
the fact is, it's served quite adequately for 100 years or so and
problems associated w/ lack of the third ground wire have been so
minimal as to be news when they did happen. Not that newer Code isn't
better in many ways, but there's no need to get particularly worked up
over older house wiring that is in good shape--the house hasn't burned
down yet and you haven't been electrocuted. It ain't likely either will
happen any time soon, either.

Ask your realtor or legal counsel of any specific requirements or call
the local jurisdiction building inspection department and ask them.

--

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
teabird wrote:

I agree with RBM. There is *alot* of work needed to bring this house
up to safe standard, and alot more to bring it up to code. I suggest
offering the buyer some money in lieu of fixing these few electrical
issues. They'll probably jump at it since they were going to have it
fixed up even more anyway. It would cost an you about $100 (+/-) to
have an electrician come out and do the basic changes, about $70 for
labor and the rest in parts.

Good luck,



I agree with this too, mostly, but replacing that one 2-prong outlet buys
a lot of safety for about $7 or $8; it's a nice gesture.

I wouldn't give them any money for fixing the electrical (unless you are
desperate to sell.) The old electrical system is already assumed in your
asking price. If they want a new house, they should buy a new house and
expect to pay accordingly.

Bob

I wouldn't have a problem with installing a few GFCI outlets if the wiring
is grounded. If it's not, and you stick labels on the new outlets stating
this, as is required, you may inadvertently cause alarm in the buyer or
their house inspector, who apparently didn't notice or mention anything
about ungrounded wiring.
My position would be that if the wiring and devices were up to current code,
I'd want more for the house. The price is what it is, because it's
reflecting the current state of the building.

Lee B wrote:

paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
ground (whatever that is).

FWIW, so far no-one seems to have mentioned this but the two prongs
doesn't necessarily mean that the ground wire is missing....a lot of
older bathrooms had a two pronged razor outlet installed which used a
step-down transformer to lower the line voltage to a lower value (can't
recall the exact amount off hand). The cover plates for these units were
quite a bit larger than regular outlet cover plates....also curling
irons plugged into these outlets didn't work due to the reduced voltage.

This may or may not apply in your case but you should be able to easily
check to see if there is proper grounding to the box.

If the existing wiring is BX theres a good chance its already
grounded.

GFCIs are a excellent safety device, i would have them installed as a
goodwill gesture

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:53:54 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

If the existing wiring is BX theres a good chance its already
grounded.

GFCIs are a excellent safety device, i would have them installed as a
goodwill gesture

Although it may not be a code requirement, it may be a requirement of
the bank, or the potential insurance company. I've seen insurance
companies that wouldn't insure a house because of a little mildew on
the siding. No insurance=no mortgage

On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

On Nov 1, 9:33*pm, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

"Damn, you're a cheapskate."

Didja miss the part where the OP said:

"I'm trying to figure if it's easier to just offer some additional
money at settlement and let them have the work done themselves."

Apparently, it's not about the money.

On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
a difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a
bathroom is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been?
The only thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to
paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
ground (whatever that is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to
just offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the
work done themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow
getting estimates.

As others have said, putting the GFCI's in the bathrooms would be a
great goodwill gesture. It might even go a long way to letting you
slide on the other "it would nice it they were done" items. A little
give and take.

As far as replacing the 2 prong outlet in the upstairs bathroom, as
long as there is room in the box (GFCI receptacles take up a bit more
room) it's an easy swap.

As far as the one built into the medicine cupboard, you might be able
to find a outlet upstream of that one where you could put the GFCI.
Either that or you could replace the breaker for that room with a GFCI
breaker. It's would be a bit more expensive, but not as expensive as
losing the sale. That might also work for the upstairs bathroom if the
box is too small.

Yeah, there might be nuisance trips depending on what else the breaker
controls, but they won't be a nuisance to *you* if you get my drift.

On Nov 1, 10:24*am, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
a difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a
bathroom is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been?
The only thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to
paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
ground (whatever that is).

In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
cupboard.

I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a number
of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affect
habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to
just offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the
work done themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow
getting estimates.

Lee-

We've bought & sold a number of homes over the past 20 years. I
typically dont bother with a home inspection & we adjust the offering
$'s to our " we'll take as is" .

When we've sold, of course the buyer has an inspection & the resulting
laundry list of "defects", cuz that's how inspectors jsutify their
cost....typically a bunch of nit picks.

I go through the list & figure how much each itme would be for me to
fix or cost to hire a fix. I come up with a number (usually a combo
fix plan) to do them all. We've used the same realtor in all our
sales and the conversation goes like this "Jayne, how many $'s to make
the list go away. I can do them all for $3000. She talks to the
other realtor, the price is adjusted & the list goes away.

In your case, as others have suggested, just install a GFI yourself &
sticker it.

IMO, in this sales environment, you dont want to blow a sale for a few
simple, inexpensive fixes.

cheers
Bob

On Nov 1, 7:08*pm, Lee B wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

Your relative is incorrect....are they a contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

On Nov 2, 1:40*am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08*pm, Lee B wrote:



AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

Your relative is incorrect....are they a *contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.

On Nov 1, 10:08�pm, Lee B wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

My experience too, 2 buyers, 2 home inspections........

first inspector noted no GFCI on garage sump pump. so installed a
GFCI, but sale fell thru.

new buyer inspector number 2. noted there SHOULDNT BE A GFCI ON SUMP
PUMP

home inspection industry is a joke. 2nd inspector wrote up gas valve
on BRAND NEW water heater. had valve replaced, plumber said it was
perfect.

home inspectors sometimes make up things to justify their fee.

and yes some issues will get buyer a denial of homeowners insurance,
and thus sale is impossible........

cracked trip hazard sidewalks, lack of railings. FHA has even more
standards

teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40 am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08 pm, Lee B wrote:



AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
Damn, you're a cheapskate.
You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...
Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.
What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".
Your relative is incorrect....are they a contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.


GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows them
to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
is the best advice.

--
bud--

On Nov 2, 9:11�am, bud-- wrote:
teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40 am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08 pm, Lee B wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
Damn, you're a cheapskate.
You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...
Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.
What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".
Your relative is incorrect....are they a �contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. �If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. �All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.

GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows them
to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
is the best advice.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

far better to install a ground wire.

its not a killer expense, treat the buyer nice, so they dont back out

On Nov 2, 7:18*am, teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40*am, DD_BobK wrote:





On Nov 1, 7:08*pm, Lee B wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

Your relative is incorrect....are they a *contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. *If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. *All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"...which reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI"

Please explain, especially your highlighted use of the *expected*.

On Nov 2, 4:18*am, teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40*am, DD_BobK wrote:



On Nov 1, 7:08*pm, Lee B wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:

(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes

Damn, you're a cheapskate.

You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

Your relative is incorrect....are they a *contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. *If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. *All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.


Then (IMHO) you would be as incorrect as Lee's relative.

GFI's dont need a ground to do their job....that's why they come with
those stickers.
A GFI without a ground will test & function just fine.

Besides.. it is very likely a 1950's house has a ground wire in the
"Romex" bundle

A GFI w/o a ground provides a BIG improvement in safety compared to a
simple 2 prong receptacle.

I'll defer to others in the ng more expert but spending $$$'s to run a
ground wire in ONE location when a GFI w/o a ground will work fine is
a waste of money....when I'm sure that those $$$'s could yield more
safety elsewhere in the house

cheers
Bob

"Lee B" wrote

Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be installed
in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes a
difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a bathroom
is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been?

No, it is not required. Futhermore, even having an outlet isnt required (I
have none in the bathrooms).

I'd check estimates, then if the list is too long offer what portion you are
willing to cover, and if they want it all, tell them how much the house
price increased. based on estimates. for the work.

Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.


Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

On Nov 2, 6:02*pm, Lee B wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

Lee-

Fix the easy / cheap ones.

The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
solution. My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
GFI.

Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list prior to sale &
have the buyer back out.

cheers
Bob

DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08 pm, Lee B wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
Damn, you're a cheapskate.
You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...

Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.

What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".

Your relative is incorrect....are they a contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"

Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.

Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.

cheers
Bob

I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
doesn't.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wrote:
On Nov 2, 9:11�am, bud-- wrote:
teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40 am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08 pm, Lee B wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
Damn, you're a cheapskate.
You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...
Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.
What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".
Your relative is incorrect....are they a �contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"
Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.
Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.
cheers
Bob
I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. �If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. �All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.

GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows them
to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
is the best advice.

--
bud--

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only newsreader that leaves this garbage is your retarded google
one. The garbage is just more noise, even to the people that use
google-groups. Editing is too difficult a concept?


far better to install a ground wire.

its not a killer expense

Using your Ouija board again?

You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

--
bud--

The only newsreader that leaves this garbage is your retarded google
one. The garbage is just more noise, even to the people that use
google-groups. Editing is too difficult a concept?



far better to install a ground wire.

its not a killer expense

Using your Ouija board again?

You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

--
bud--

And the reason your previously posted replies contained lots of
"quoted text" that you failed to "edit" ...might be?

Editing is too difficult a concept?

cheers
Bob

On Nov 2, 9:34*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 2, 6:02*pm, Lee B wrote:





wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

Lee-

Fix the easy / cheap ones.

The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
solution. *My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
GFI.

Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list *prior to sale &
have the buyer back out.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent person; turn off
the power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle. "

That's assuming the GFCI fits in the original box. My house was built
in '56 and getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was
either difficult or impossible.

On Nov 3, 10:09�am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 2, 9:11 am, bud-- wrote:
teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40 am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08 pm, Lee B wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes
Damn, you're a cheapskate.
You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...
Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.
What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".
Your relative is incorrect....are they a contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"
Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.
Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.
cheers
Bob
I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.

GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows them
to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
is the best advice.

--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only newsreader that leaves this garbage is your retarded google
one. The garbage is just more noise, even to the people that use
google-groups. Editing is too difficult a concept?



far better to install a ground wire.

its not a killer expense

Using your Ouija board again?

You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most people overestimate the difficulty in fishing wires in walls. and
no wherre did i mention attaching it to a water pipe

wrote in message
...
On Nov 3, 10:09?am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 2, 9:11 am, bud-- wrote:
teabird wrote:
On Nov 2, 1:40 am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 1, 7:08 pm, Lee B wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:24:53 -0500, Lee B
wrote:
(I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me,
so
this is all Greek to me).
Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home.
The home
inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be
installed in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that
makes
Damn, you're a cheapskate.
You haven't seen the rest of the laundry list...
Seriously when I posted the question, I had no idea if having a GFIC
installed was a big deal or not. A relative had just told me that
since
it was a two hole plug, the electrician would have to run additional
wiring from the basement that could cost thousands. If it really is
as
seemingly straightforward as it's been made to sound, I don't mind
paying for that.
What amazes me is that this is the second home inspection in the
last
year, after the prev sale fell through. And both inspectors found
entirely different things to complain about. The first one never
mentioned GFCIs, but came up with things like the length of some
exhaust
pipe on the water heater. This one came up with the GFCIs but not
the
plumbing, plus he zeroed in on settlement cracks on the back porch
that
the first one didn't mention as a problem. That's why I was having
problems evaluating what's really necessary. Versus "oh let's see if
we
can get her to upgrade this while we're at it".
Your relative is incorrect....are they a contractor, electrician,
engineer or a DIY's that knows anything?
GFI's can be installed without a ground, they come with stickers "no
equipment ground"
Inspectors justify their fee & cover their butts by finding
"defects"....makes the buyer think they're getting their money;s
worth.
Be cooperative, preserve the sale but dont give away the farm.
Discuss the list with your realtor & a person knowledgeable as to the
cost of each item ...have your realtor make the list go away.
cheers
Bob
I wouldn't say the relative is incorrect. If it is indeed only 2 wire
w/out a ground, the correct and safest way (GFCI, right?) to install
it is to run wires plus a ground back to a panel or sub panel. All
other options are short cuts to save time, money or hassle, which
reduce the safety and *expected* working of the GFCI.

GFCIs still work when there is no ground. The NEC explicitly allows
them
to be installed when there is no ground, but in that case they have to
have the label several people have referred to. IMHO RBM's second post
is the best advice.

--
bud--
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only newsreader that leaves this garbage is your retarded google
one. The garbage is just more noise, even to the people that use
google-groups. Editing is too difficult a concept?



far better to install a ground wire.

its not a killer expense

Using your Ouija board again?

You have no idea how difficult it will be to add a ground wire.
And it has not been code compliant for many years to attach it to a
water pipe, except for the first 5 feet of pipe inside the building.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

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most people overestimate the difficulty in fishing wires in walls.

So, you've polled "most people" have you???

Nate Nagel wrote:


I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
doesn't.

Nope. As mentioned several times in this thread, GFCI's work just fine without
a ground. In most cases, they are a safe and code approved alternative to
installing a safety ground. -- Doug

most people overestimate the difficulty in fishing wires in walls.

So, you've polled "most people" have you???- Hide quoted text -


theres often a easy way to get a wire to where you want it.

too many get scared off by just the idea of running a wire. personally
i enjoy the challenge of wall fishing. have done a good bit of it over
the years.

a un grounded GFCI will cause home inspection grief...........

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:51:11 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
doesn't.

Exactly wrong.

On Nov 3, 10:28�pm, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:51:11 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
doesn't.

Exactly wrong.

Well you can have trooubles depending on what you plug in. some
devices REQUIRE a ground for proper operation.

computers, fluroscent lamps, come quickly to mind..........

On Nov 3, 12:16*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 2, 9:34*pm, DD_BobK wrote:



On Nov 2, 6:02*pm, Lee B wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

Lee-

Fix the easy / cheap ones.

The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
solution. *My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
GFI.

Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list *prior to sale &
have the buyer back out.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent person; turn off
the power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle. "

That's assuming the GFCI fits in the original box. My house was built
in '56 and getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was
either difficult or impossible.

getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was either difficult or impossible.

.........and a reasonably competent person would be able to figure this
out.

btw some of the currently available GFI's are a bit smaller than
first generation GFI's and are an easier install

getting first generation GFI's into (1980) metal "old work" was tough
but doable

cheers
Bob


cheers
Bob

On Nov 4, 12:17�am, wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:18:57 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Nov 3, 10:28?pm, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:51:11 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
I believe the GFCI itself needs a ground, it's the stuff downstream that
doesn't.

Exactly wrong.

Well you can have trooubles depending on what you plug in. some
devices REQUIRE a ground for proper operation.

computers, fluroscent lamps, come quickly to mind..........

Computers need a ground? That would certainly be news to the two that
have been running in my cars for close to a decade.

car computers are grounded to the vehicle.

at least a few years ago many PCs needed to be grounded. no ground can
cause static issues

On Nov 4, 12:05*am, DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 3, 12:16*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Nov 2, 9:34*pm, DD_BobK wrote:

On Nov 2, 6:02*pm, Lee B wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:05:39 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

Look, houses sell all the time 'as is'.

Not so much this year. You have to make yours look better than the 10
others the realtor is showing the buyer today.

That is certainly true in my neighborhood. There are still quite a few
short sales and foreclosures, all of which are listed for significantly
less as-is than the other houses for sale. And there are at least 2-3
others identical to mine (1950's end of group row house)within about a 4
block radius. , and even more that are inside groups. And since I'm not
living there, and am juggling two mortgages, I'm not going to quibble
over too much! (Well except for the part where they want me to replace
some cracked tiles on the bathroom wall. My contractor said that's
asking for problems, that it'll go from 8 tiles to their neighbors and
will end up with a bunch of tiles, none of which will match the
originals. OTOH, the buyer didn't specify they have to match!)

BTW, called an electrician from a company that had done work there
before. He quoted $125 over the phone. He'll check to see if there is a
ground. If not he also mentioned that it could be attached to the water
pipe. Thanks for the help. It was such a relief to hear it would not be
some thousand dollar type of repair! Onward and upward to where they
want an unused sidewalk removed. And the chimney waterproofed.

Lee-

Fix the easy / cheap ones.

The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent preson; turn off the
power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle.
Running a ground wire to the nearest water pipe is pretty much a hack
solution. *My suggestion; if no ground at box, install & "sticker" the
GFI.

Negotiate some dollars to be held in the escrow acct to pay for some
of the disputed items (chimney waterproofing & sidewalk
removal) ...don't want to be fixing the laundry list *prior to sale &
have the buyer back out.

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"The GFI can be done by a reasonable competent person; turn off
the power to the receptacle & swap if for a GFI recepetacle. "

That's assuming the GFCI fits in the original box. My house was built
in '56 and getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was
either difficult or impossible.
getting GFCI's into some of the original work boxes was *either difficult or impossible.

........and a reasonably competent person would be able to figure this
out.

btw *some of the currently available GFI's are a bit smaller than
first generation GFI's and are an easier install

getting first generation GFI's into (1980) metal "old work" was tough
but doable

cheers
Bob

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"...and a reasonably competent person would be able to figure this
out."

Right, except that you never mentioned that in your earlier post.

You listed the steps required to swap it, without any caveats, which
is why I brought it up.

Keep in mind that the OP also mentioned a receptacle in a medicine
cupboard, which also might present an space problem.