Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.



TMT

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing
retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they
discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that
emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked
their insurer for help — and not only was their claim denied, but
they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed.

Thousands of homeowners nationwide who bought new houses constructed
from the defective building materials are finding their hopes dashed,
their lives in limbo. And experts warn that cases like the Ivorys', in
which insurers drop policies or send notices of non-renewal based on
the presence of Chinese drywall, will become rampant as insurance
companies process the hundreds of claims currently in the pipeline.

At least three insurers have already canceled or refused to renew
policies after homeowners sought their help replacing the bad
wallboard. Because mortgage companies require homeowners to insure
their properties, they are then at risk of foreclosure, yet no law
prevents the cancellations.

"This is like the small wave that's out on the horizon that's going to
continue to grow and grow until it becomes a tsunami," said Florida
attorney David Durkee, who represents hundreds of homeowners who are
suing builders, suppliers and manufacturers over the drywall.

During the height of the U.S. housing boom, with building materials in
short supply, American construction companies turned to Chinese-made
drywall because it was abundant and cheap. An Associated Press
analysis of shipping records found that more than 500 million pounds
of Chinese gypsum board was imported between 2004 and 2008 — enough to
have built tens of thousands of homes. They are heavily concentrated
in the Southeast, especially Florida and areas of Louisiana and
Mississippi hit hard by Hurricane Katrina.

The defective materials have been found by state and federal agencies
to emit "volatile sulfur compounds," and contain traces of strontium
sulfide, which can produce a rotten-egg odor, along with organic
compounds not found in American-made drywall. Homeowners complain the
fumes are corroding copper pipes, destroying TVs and air conditioners,
and blackening jewelry and silverware. Some believe the wallboard is
also making them ill.

The federal government is studying the problem and considering some
sort of relief for homeowners.

Meanwhile, the AP interviewed several homeowners who, like the Ivorys,
were unlucky enough to purchase properties built with Chinese drywall,
and are now being hit with a second and third wave of bad news: Their
insurers are declining to fill their claims, then canceling the policy
or issuing notices that policies won't be renewed until the problem is
fixed. The homeowners have little recourse since neither the Chinese
manufacturers nor the Chinese government are likely to respond to any
lawsuits or reimburse them for the defective drywall.

In each instance, the insurer learned of the drywall through a claim
filed by the homeowner seeking financial help with its removal.

The Ivorys have sued their builder, but it could take months for their
case and hundreds like it to work their way through the courts. In the
meantime, they have moved back to Colorado because their three-bedroom
ranch home two miles from the Gulf of Mexico is unlivable and soon
will be uninsured.

"It's been an emotional roller-coaster," said James Ivory, who is
still making mortgage payments on the house. "It was all in our heads,
nice weather down there, calm life, beaches. Now I don't know what to
do."

John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for the Ivorys' insurer, Citizens
Property Insurance Corp., said their claim was denied because the
drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the
policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that
could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the
policy unless the problem is fixed.

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective
part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed
or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We
provide insurance, not warranty service."

Citizens, a last-resort insurer backed by the state of Florida for
people who can't find affordable coverage elsewhere, has received 23
claims about Chinese drywall, and has so far denied five. Citizens
could not immediately say how many policies had been canceled or not
renewed because of the drywall.

Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute,
agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty,
inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials.

Tom Zutell, spokesman for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation,
said the cancellations are troubling, but legal. No law prevents
insurance companies from canceling policies because of Chinese
drywall.

"We are staying out of the fray at the moment," he said.

Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains
covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another
calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained
undisclosed Chinese drywall.

"If you think that by not telling your insurance company about the
drywall that you're protected, you're sadly mistaken," Durkee said.

A newly married couple in Hallandale Beach, Fla., saved up for five
years to buy their first home only to later discover it had Chinese
drywall. They filed a claim with their insurer, Universal Insurance
Co. of North America, and were denied.

Universal then sent the couple a letter, stating their policy was
being dropped because "the dwelling was built with Chinese drywall."

The couple then signed on with Citizens, but didn't divulge the
drywall issue, and hasn't filed another claim. The 31-year-old man
requested anonymity because he's afraid of losing his insurance
policy, and thus his home.

"I honestly don't know what I'd do if that happened," he said. "All
this has basically taken us back five years. We saved money to buy
this home."

Universal did not respond to requests for comment.

Louisiana lawyer Daniel Becnel Jr., who represents more than 200
owners of homes containing Chinese drywall, is advising his clients to
avoid filing claims with their insurers or they could lose their
houses.

"I really believe everybody should have an insurance claim with this,"
Becnel said. "But it's hard to tell somebody to go make a claim, then
they lose their policy ... This is a nightmare for people."

"I tell people flat out if you file, you may lose your insurance,"
agreed Mississippi attorney Steve Mullins, who has about 100 clients
with Chinese drywall in their homes.

Chris Whitfield, a 29-year-old tire repairman, bought a house in
Picayune, Miss., after his home in Louisiana's St. Bernard Parish was
destroyed by Katrina. He soon discovered it was built with Chinese
drywall, and moved out because it was making his family sick.

His claim was denied by his insurer, Nationwide, which followed up
with notice that he would be dropped because his policy didn't cover
unoccupied dwellings.

Nationwide spokeswoman Liz Christopher declined to comment on
Whitfield's case and could not say how many drywall claims had been
submitted or how many policies had been canceled or not renewed.

Whitfield offered to move back into the house, but he said he was told
he'd first have to replace the drywall.

"I don't know what I'm going to do," he said.

___

Associated Press Writer Damian Grass in Miami contributed to this
report.

On Oct 16, 10:58*am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 23:02:06 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools





wrote:
Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.

TMT

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing
retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they
discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that
emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked
their insurer for help — and not only was their claim denied, but
they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed.

Thousands of homeowners nationwide who bought new houses constructed
from the defective building materials are finding their hopes dashed,
their lives in limbo. And experts warn that cases like the Ivorys', in
which insurers drop policies or send notices of non-renewal based on
the presence of Chinese drywall, will become rampant as insurance
companies process the hundreds of claims currently in the pipeline.

At least three insurers have already canceled or refused to renew
policies after homeowners sought their help replacing the bad
wallboard. Because mortgage companies require homeowners to insure
their properties, they are then at risk of foreclosure, yet no law
prevents the cancellations.

"This is like the small wave that's out on the horizon that's going to
continue to grow and grow until it becomes a tsunami," said Florida
attorney David Durkee, who represents hundreds of homeowners who are
suing builders, suppliers and manufacturers over the drywall.

During the height of the U.S. housing boom, with building materials in
short supply, American construction companies turned to Chinese-made
drywall because it was abundant and cheap. An Associated Press
analysis of shipping records found that more than 500 million pounds
of Chinese gypsum board was imported between 2004 and 2008 — enough to
have built tens of thousands of homes. They are heavily concentrated
in the Southeast, especially Florida and areas of Louisiana and
Mississippi hit hard by Hurricane Katrina.

The defective materials have been found by state and federal agencies
to emit "volatile sulfur compounds," and contain traces of strontium
sulfide, which can produce a rotten-egg odor, along with organic
compounds not found in American-made drywall. Homeowners complain the
fumes are corroding copper pipes, destroying TVs and air conditioners,
and blackening jewelry and silverware. Some believe the wallboard is
also making them ill.

The federal government is studying the problem and considering some
sort of relief for homeowners.

Meanwhile, the AP interviewed several homeowners who, like the Ivorys,
were unlucky enough to purchase properties built with Chinese drywall,
and are now being hit with a second and third wave of bad news: Their
insurers are declining to fill their claims, then canceling the policy
or issuing notices that policies won't be renewed until the problem is
fixed. The homeowners have little recourse since neither the Chinese
manufacturers nor the Chinese government are likely to respond to any
lawsuits or reimburse them for the defective drywall.

In each instance, the insurer learned of the drywall through a claim
filed by the homeowner seeking financial help with its removal.

The Ivorys have sued their builder, but it could take months for their
case and hundreds like it to work their way through the courts. In the
meantime, they have moved back to Colorado because their three-bedroom
ranch home two miles from the Gulf of Mexico is unlivable and soon
will be uninsured.

"It's been an emotional roller-coaster," said James Ivory, who is
still making mortgage payments on the house. "It was all in our heads,
nice weather down there, calm life, beaches. Now I don't know what to
do."

John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for the Ivorys' insurer, Citizens
Property Insurance Corp., said their claim was denied because the
drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the
policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that
could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the
policy unless the problem is fixed.

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective
part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed
or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We
provide insurance, not warranty service."

Citizens, a last-resort insurer backed by the state of Florida for
people who can't find affordable coverage elsewhere, has received 23
claims about Chinese drywall, and has so far denied five. Citizens
could not immediately say how many policies had been canceled or not
renewed because of the drywall.

Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute,
agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty,
inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials.

Tom Zutell, spokesman for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation,
said the cancellations are troubling, but legal. No law prevents
insurance companies from canceling policies because of Chinese
drywall.

"We are staying out of the fray at the moment," he said.

Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains
covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another
calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained
undisclosed Chinese drywall.

"If you think that by not telling your insurance company about the
drywall that you're protected, you're sadly mistaken," Durkee said.

A newly married couple in Hallandale Beach, Fla., saved up for five
years to buy their first home only to later discover it had Chinese
drywall. They filed a claim with their insurer, Universal Insurance
Co. of North America, and were denied.

Universal then sent the couple a letter, stating their policy was
being dropped because "the dwelling was built with Chinese drywall."

The couple then signed on with Citizens, but didn't divulge the
drywall issue, and hasn't filed another claim. The 31-year-old man
requested anonymity because he's afraid of losing his insurance
policy, and thus his home.

"I honestly don't know what I'd do if that happened," he said. "All
this has basically taken us back five years. We saved money to buy
this home."

Universal did not respond to requests for comment.

Louisiana lawyer Daniel Becnel Jr., who represents more than 200
owners of homes containing Chinese drywall, is advising his clients to
avoid filing claims with their insurers or they could lose their
houses.

"I really believe everybody should have an insurance claim with this,"
Becnel said. "But it's hard to tell somebody to go make a claim, then
they lose their policy ... This is a nightmare for people."

"I tell people flat out if you file, you may lose your insurance,"
agreed Mississippi attorney Steve Mullins, who has about 100 clients
with Chinese drywall in their homes.

Chris Whitfield, a 29-year-old tire repairman, bought a house in
Picayune, Miss., after his home in Louisiana's St. Bernard Parish was
destroyed by Katrina. He soon discovered it was built with Chinese
drywall, and moved out because it was making his family sick.

His claim was denied by his insurer, Nationwide, which followed up
with notice that he would be dropped because his policy didn't cover
unoccupied dwellings.

Nationwide spokeswoman Liz Christopher declined to comment on
Whitfield's case and could not say how many drywall claims had been
submitted or how many policies had been canceled or not renewed.

Whitfield offered to move back into the house, but he said he was told
he'd first have to replace the drywall.

"I don't know what I'm going to do," he said.

___

Associated Press Writer Damian Grass in Miami contributed to this
report.

I feel bad for the owners but I am not sure this is really a problem
that is covered by your homeowner's insurance- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

TMT

In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:


I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada.

On Oct 16, 1:53*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?
Relying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

R

On Oct 16, 12:53*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.



It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada.

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

TMT

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?

Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Relying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Oct 16, 12:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada.

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

Your first clue should be the word(s) immediately following the phrases "Made
In" or "Product Of".

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.


Smell it?

On Oct 16, 4:01*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?

Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

R

On 10/16/2009 12:02 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.

Wow. That's just nutty that the insurance companies are allowed to drop
them because of it. The car analogy doesn't wash...if I'm in an
accident due to a defective car part I would expect the insurance
company to pay me and then turn around and sue the manufacturer to get
reimbursed.

I wonder if there are any standards on allowable chemical fumes emitted
by drywall? If there weren't, the insurance companies shouldn't be able
to do this. If there were, then whoever approved the importing of the
drywall should be on the hook.

I bet any housing inspector with a chemical sniffer is going to be in
high demand for the next while.

Chris

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Oct 16, 1:53 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used
low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?
Relying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Going up in flames may be hard to prove it was the dealer or the builder.
There has been cases where the cars hit in the rear and burst into flames
people sued the motor company. Also a truck that had the gas filler just
behind the driver had the builder sued when it turned over on its side and
burst into flames.
The builder lost in both cases.
The companies that made or used asbestos were sued. This was years after it
was discovered it was bad for people's health.

The home owner should go after the builder for using substandard materials
and the supplier in China. If they do not pay for the replacement then the
US should not allow any imports from China of anything.

We should not be buying things from them anyway. Look at all the problems
their substandard items have caused health wise.
Lead in items. I think it was something in the paint of toys that turned
into a drug that affected young children when they licked it.

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 4:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.
Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.
So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?
Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.
Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

R

The builder probably just ordered 1/2" (or whatever) drywall from a
supply house, who provided them with the Chinese stuff. You'd have to
go farther up the supply chain to find out who was really negligent.

Now if a builder *knew* that Chinese drywall was dangerous/defective
when he took delivery of it, you might be able to prove something there.
But proving that would be difficult, even if it were true.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 4:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.
Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.
So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?
Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.
Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

R

No, but likely he has insurance which will at least buy a new BMW for a
lawyer because the lawyers typically will name the contractor and the
insurance will settle because that is cheaper than presenting a defense.
It isn't the grand prize but not too bad for mailing out a couple sheets
of paper stapled into a blue folder.

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 1:53 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?
Relying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

R

Absolutely if he hired the typical pirate law firm. They would comb for
whomever had wealth they could transfer to themselves and could be
associated in any way. It builds up the take because if they sue you you
must present a defense or bargain to be released. Often in the case of
the car dealer their insurer might offer $100,000 to make them go away.

Without going into big detail my buddy had a car for his daughter to
commute to college. The car died and he signed the title to dispose of
it as junk and gave it to a garage who was supposed to have it scrapped.
Instead they built a Frankencar and sold it. Two young men died when
the car burned in a wooded area (drugs and alcohol were involved). Along
with the car manufacturer and car parts manufacturer they are suing my
buddy for around what wealth they discovered because they claim some
service bulletin wasn't done sometime in the past when he owned the car.
You can't make this stuff up.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.



TMT

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing
retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they
discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that
emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked
their insurer for help — and not only was their claim denied, but
they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed.

Thousands of homeowners nationwide who bought new houses constructed
from the defective building materials are finding their hopes dashed,
their lives in limbo. And experts warn that cases like the Ivorys', in
which insurers drop policies or send notices of non-renewal based on
the presence of Chinese drywall, will become rampant as insurance
companies process the hundreds of claims currently in the pipeline.

At least three insurers have already canceled or refused to renew
policies after homeowners sought their help replacing the bad
wallboard. Because mortgage companies require homeowners to insure
their properties, they are then at risk of foreclosure, yet no law
prevents the cancellations.

"This is like the small wave that's out on the horizon that's going to
continue to grow and grow until it becomes a tsunami," said Florida
attorney David Durkee, who represents hundreds of homeowners who are
suing builders, suppliers and manufacturers over the drywall.

During the height of the U.S. housing boom, with building materials in
short supply, American construction companies turned to Chinese-made
drywall because it was abundant and cheap. An Associated Press
analysis of shipping records found that more than 500 million pounds
of Chinese gypsum board was imported between 2004 and 2008 — enough to
have built tens of thousands of homes. They are heavily concentrated
in the Southeast, especially Florida and areas of Louisiana and
Mississippi hit hard by Hurricane Katrina.

The defective materials have been found by state and federal agencies
to emit "volatile sulfur compounds," and contain traces of strontium
sulfide, which can produce a rotten-egg odor, along with organic
compounds not found in American-made drywall. Homeowners complain the
fumes are corroding copper pipes, destroying TVs and air conditioners,
and blackening jewelry and silverware. Some believe the wallboard is
also making them ill.

The federal government is studying the problem and considering some
sort of relief for homeowners.

Meanwhile, the AP interviewed several homeowners who, like the Ivorys,
were unlucky enough to purchase properties built with Chinese drywall,
and are now being hit with a second and third wave of bad news: Their
insurers are declining to fill their claims, then canceling the policy
or issuing notices that policies won't be renewed until the problem is
fixed. The homeowners have little recourse since neither the Chinese
manufacturers nor the Chinese government are likely to respond to any
lawsuits or reimburse them for the defective drywall.

In each instance, the insurer learned of the drywall through a claim
filed by the homeowner seeking financial help with its removal.

The Ivorys have sued their builder, but it could take months for their
case and hundreds like it to work their way through the courts. In the
meantime, they have moved back to Colorado because their three-bedroom
ranch home two miles from the Gulf of Mexico is unlivable and soon
will be uninsured.

"It's been an emotional roller-coaster," said James Ivory, who is
still making mortgage payments on the house. "It was all in our heads,
nice weather down there, calm life, beaches. Now I don't know what to
do."

John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for the Ivorys' insurer, Citizens
Property Insurance Corp., said their claim was denied because the
drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the
policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that
could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the
policy unless the problem is fixed.

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective
part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed
or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We
provide insurance, not warranty service."

Citizens, a last-resort insurer backed by the state of Florida for
people who can't find affordable coverage elsewhere, has received 23
claims about Chinese drywall, and has so far denied five. Citizens
could not immediately say how many policies had been canceled or not
renewed because of the drywall.

Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute,
agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty,
inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials.

Tom Zutell, spokesman for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation,
said the cancellations are troubling, but legal. No law prevents
insurance companies from canceling policies because of Chinese
drywall.

"We are staying out of the fray at the moment," he said.

Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains
covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another
calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained
undisclosed Chinese drywall.

"If you think that by not telling your insurance company about the
drywall that you're protected, you're sadly mistaken," Durkee said.

A newly married couple in Hallandale Beach, Fla., saved up for five
years to buy their first home only to later discover it had Chinese
drywall. They filed a claim with their insurer, Universal Insurance
Co. of North America, and were denied.

Universal then sent the couple a letter, stating their policy was
being dropped because "the dwelling was built with Chinese drywall."

The couple then signed on with Citizens, but didn't divulge the
drywall issue, and hasn't filed another claim. The 31-year-old man
requested anonymity because he's afraid of losing his insurance
policy, and thus his home.

"I honestly don't know what I'd do if that happened," he said. "All
this has basically taken us back five years. We saved money to buy
this home."

Universal did not respond to requests for comment.

Louisiana lawyer Daniel Becnel Jr., who represents more than 200
owners of homes containing Chinese drywall, is advising his clients to
avoid filing claims with their insurers or they could lose their
houses.

"I really believe everybody should have an insurance claim with this,"
Becnel said. "But it's hard to tell somebody to go make a claim, then
they lose their policy ... This is a nightmare for people."

"I tell people flat out if you file, you may lose your insurance,"
agreed Mississippi attorney Steve Mullins, who has about 100 clients
with Chinese drywall in their homes.

Chris Whitfield, a 29-year-old tire repairman, bought a house in
Picayune, Miss., after his home in Louisiana's St. Bernard Parish was
destroyed by Katrina. He soon discovered it was built with Chinese
drywall, and moved out because it was making his family sick.

His claim was denied by his insurer, Nationwide, which followed up
with notice that he would be dropped because his policy didn't cover
unoccupied dwellings.

Nationwide spokeswoman Liz Christopher declined to comment on
Whitfield's case and could not say how many drywall claims had been
submitted or how many policies had been canceled or not renewed.

Whitfield offered to move back into the house, but he said he was told
he'd first have to replace the drywall.

"I don't know what I'm going to do," he said.

___

Associated Press Writer Damian Grass in Miami contributed to this
report.

Isn't it about time we stop buying Chinese products? All the lead
problems, now this. The US should ban importing all Chinese products
until they make good for all the crap they have already sold us.

I'm curious if the drywall used in China has the same problem, or is it
just the stuff sent over here? And their children's toys, do they have
lead or just the stuff shipped over here?

wrote:

I feel bad for the owners but I am not sure this is really a problem
that is covered by your homeowner's insurance

A pal of mine who is a lawyer is currently representing a home owner who
bought home owner's insurance including a rider for water damage. Thanks to
a plumbing failure he ended up with fifty grand in water damage, but when he
filed a claim the insurance company said they don't write policies for water
damage so he wasn't covered. The home owner produced his policy with the
rider for water damage and his cancelled checks for his premium payments
which the company cashed. The insurance company said they don't insure
against water damage, and if somebody in the company mistakenly wrote a
policy covering water damage that was too bad, they weren't going to pay,
though they would refund the cost of the water damage rider.

So now he's going to have to sue, it's the only way to get the *******s'
attention, and it will take years and cost a fortune even if the homeowner
finally wins. The moral of this story is insurance companies will tell you
you're covered for what they say you're covered for, and if you don't like
it, sue them. In this drywall case some of the policies probably do exclude
construction flaws including materials, but maybe some of them don't--either
way it doesn't matter if an insurance company simply refuses to pay or
cancels coverage and counts on homeowners being unwilling to get into a long
court fight. These are close cousins of the swine who cancel a woman's
health insurance in the middle of chemotherapy for breast cancer on the
grounds that when she applied for the insurance she unreported her weight,
and while that had nothing to do with her getting cancer, it amounts to
misrepresentation so they're pulling the pin on her coverage.

If I were building a new house I'd insist the contract prohibit construction
materials from China; any contractor who wouldn't agree wouldn't get the
job.

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 4:01=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
ups=3D
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?

Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

I understood your analogy perfectly well. It's just a very bad analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

Obviously your own understanding of the legal system could use a little,
umm, enhancement. You can sue anyone you want. *Recovering* from someone who
hasn't any liability might be a bit of a problem, though. If a home is built
with substandard materials, the liability _to the homeowner_ rests with the
builder, not with the manufacturer of the substandard material.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:44:46 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 16, 4:01Â*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?

Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

R
Nor is the manufacturer of the drywall - you would also need to sue in
a Chinese court.
The "logical" choice would be the importer of the crap - if you can
determine exactly who that was - and he (it) will likely have less
assets than the builder, and no product liability insurance.
"judgement-proof" is the term usually used.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:35:28 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

On Oct 16, 12:53Â*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.



It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada.

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

TMT
What name is on it? The Chinese stuff won't be Georgia Pacific or USG
or American Gypsum.

Or take a sample and wet it. The chinese stuff smells like something
wild whizzed on it.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:57:23 -0400, Tony
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.



TMT

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. €“ James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing
retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they
discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that
emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked
their insurer for help €” and not only was their claim denied, but
they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed.

Thousands of homeowners nationwide who bought new houses constructed
from the defective building materials are finding their hopes dashed,
their lives in limbo. And experts warn that cases like the Ivorys', in
which insurers drop policies or send notices of non-renewal based on
the presence of Chinese drywall, will become rampant as insurance
companies process the hundreds of claims currently in the pipeline.

At least three insurers have already canceled or refused to renew
policies after homeowners sought their help replacing the bad
wallboard. Because mortgage companies require homeowners to insure
their properties, they are then at risk of foreclosure, yet no law
prevents the cancellations.

"This is like the small wave that's out on the horizon that's going to
continue to grow and grow until it becomes a tsunami," said Florida
attorney David Durkee, who represents hundreds of homeowners who are
suing builders, suppliers and manufacturers over the drywall.

During the height of the U.S. housing boom, with building materials in
short supply, American construction companies turned to Chinese-made
drywall because it was abundant and cheap. An Associated Press
analysis of shipping records found that more than 500 million pounds
of Chinese gypsum board was imported between 2004 and 2008 €” enough to
have built tens of thousands of homes. They are heavily concentrated
in the Southeast, especially Florida and areas of Louisiana and
Mississippi hit hard by Hurricane Katrina.

The defective materials have been found by state and federal agencies
to emit "volatile sulfur compounds," and contain traces of strontium
sulfide, which can produce a rotten-egg odor, along with organic
compounds not found in American-made drywall. Homeowners complain the
fumes are corroding copper pipes, destroying TVs and air conditioners,
and blackening jewelry and silverware. Some believe the wallboard is
also making them ill.

The federal government is studying the problem and considering some
sort of relief for homeowners.

Meanwhile, the AP interviewed several homeowners who, like the Ivorys,
were unlucky enough to purchase properties built with Chinese drywall,
and are now being hit with a second and third wave of bad news: Their
insurers are declining to fill their claims, then canceling the policy
or issuing notices that policies won't be renewed until the problem is
fixed. The homeowners have little recourse since neither the Chinese
manufacturers nor the Chinese government are likely to respond to any
lawsuits or reimburse them for the defective drywall.

In each instance, the insurer learned of the drywall through a claim
filed by the homeowner seeking financial help with its removal.

The Ivorys have sued their builder, but it could take months for their
case and hundreds like it to work their way through the courts. In the
meantime, they have moved back to Colorado because their three-bedroom
ranch home two miles from the Gulf of Mexico is unlivable and soon
will be uninsured.

"It's been an emotional roller-coaster," said James Ivory, who is
still making mortgage payments on the house. "It was all in our heads,
nice weather down there, calm life, beaches. Now I don't know what to
do."

John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for the Ivorys' insurer, Citizens
Property Insurance Corp., said their claim was denied because the
drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the
policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that
could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the
policy unless the problem is fixed.

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective
part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed
or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We
provide insurance, not warranty service."

Citizens, a last-resort insurer backed by the state of Florida for
people who can't find affordable coverage elsewhere, has received 23
claims about Chinese drywall, and has so far denied five. Citizens
could not immediately say how many policies had been canceled or not
renewed because of the drywall.

Robert Hartwig, president of the Insurance Information Institute,
agreed that homeowners policies were never meant to cover "faulty,
inadequate or defective" workmanship, construction or materials.

Tom Zutell, spokesman for the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation,
said the cancellations are troubling, but legal. No law prevents
insurance companies from canceling policies because of Chinese
drywall.

"We are staying out of the fray at the moment," he said.

Even if a homeowner does not file a claim over the drywall and remains
covered, they could later be denied a claim for a fire or another
calamity if insurance investigators determine the home contained
undisclosed Chinese drywall.

"If you think that by not telling your insurance company about the
drywall that you're protected, you're sadly mistaken," Durkee said.

A newly married couple in Hallandale Beach, Fla., saved up for five
years to buy their first home only to later discover it had Chinese
drywall. They filed a claim with their insurer, Universal Insurance
Co. of North America, and were denied.

Universal then sent the couple a letter, stating their policy was
being dropped because "the dwelling was built with Chinese drywall."

The couple then signed on with Citizens, but didn't divulge the
drywall issue, and hasn't filed another claim. The 31-year-old man
requested anonymity because he's afraid of losing his insurance
policy, and thus his home.

"I honestly don't know what I'd do if that happened," he said. "All
this has basically taken us back five years. We saved money to buy
this home."

Universal did not respond to requests for comment.

Louisiana lawyer Daniel Becnel Jr., who represents more than 200
owners of homes containing Chinese drywall, is advising his clients to
avoid filing claims with their insurers or they could lose their
houses.

"I really believe everybody should have an insurance claim with this,"
Becnel said. "But it's hard to tell somebody to go make a claim, then
they lose their policy ... This is a nightmare for people."

"I tell people flat out if you file, you may lose your insurance,"
agreed Mississippi attorney Steve Mullins, who has about 100 clients
with Chinese drywall in their homes.

Chris Whitfield, a 29-year-old tire repairman, bought a house in
Picayune, Miss., after his home in Louisiana's St. Bernard Parish was
destroyed by Katrina. He soon discovered it was built with Chinese
drywall, and moved out because it was making his family sick.

His claim was denied by his insurer, Nationwide, which followed up
with notice that he would be dropped because his policy didn't cover
unoccupied dwellings.

Nationwide spokeswoman Liz Christopher declined to comment on
Whitfield's case and could not say how many drywall claims had been
submitted or how many policies had been canceled or not renewed.

Whitfield offered to move back into the house, but he said he was told
he'd first have to replace the drywall.

"I don't know what I'm going to do," he said.

___

Associated Press Writer Damian Grass in Miami contributed to this
report.

Isn't it about time we stop buying Chinese products? All the lead
problems, now this. The US should ban importing all Chinese products
until they make good for all the crap they have already sold us.

I'm curious if the drywall used in China has the same problem, or is it
just the stuff sent over here? And their children's toys, do they have
lead or just the stuff shipped over here?


Drywall in china? Rice-paper walls - but if they use drywall it will
be the same crap.

As for the toys, you can be assured their citizens get the poisoned
stuff too. Remember the Melamine fiasco????? Killed a lot of chinese
kids.

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Nor is the manufacturer of the drywall - you would also need to sue in
a Chinese court.

Do the Chinese have a court system... or do they just execute the CEO
and 5 or 10 of is closest friends?

Tony wrote:

Isn't it about time we stop buying Chinese products? All the lead
problems, now this. The US should ban importing all Chinese products
until they make good for all the crap they have already sold us.

At this stage of the game, that might be rather difficult.

I'm curious if the drywall used in China has the same problem, or is it
just the stuff sent over here? And their children's toys, do they have
lead or just the stuff shipped over here?

Sad to say, they don't seem to be doing any better for their own kids.

The real problem appears to be a mix of greed and ignorance.

I'm certainly glad we don't suffer from those here. :-T

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. They sell what people will buy. Just watch
your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances, cars, home
goods, etc. They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if their mother
works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from lack of sales.
.. Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for $119? I'm a smart
shopper, right?

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. They sell what people will buy. Just
watch your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances,
cars, home goods, etc. They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if
their mother works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from
lack of sales. . Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for
$119? I'm a smart shopper, right?


Don't blame the buyers or the sellers--just recognize that (economic)
incentives matter
and the confusion will disappear. Economic incentives, of course, include
more than
pecuniary ones.

On 2009-10-17, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. They sell what people will buy. Just watch
your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances, cars, home
goods, etc. They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if their mother
works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from lack of sales.
. Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for $119? I'm a smart
shopper, right?



It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist
2) Had no means to check what the builders installed
3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

On Oct 17, 12:50*am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:

It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist

Most people didn't.

2) Had no means to check what the builders installed

Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.

3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? Huh?

R

On Oct 16, 3:04*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Oct 16, 12:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada..

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

Your first clue should be the word(s) immediately following the phrases "Made
In" or "Product Of".

Chinese products regularly use false "made in the USA" labels.

Even if it is labeled Made in China does not make it bad.

Again...tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the
bad sheetrock.

The problem is harder than it looks.

TMT

TMT

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist

Most people didn't.

2) Had no means to check what the builders installed

Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.

3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? Huh?

R


If that's all they can get? Sure.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:12:36 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 4:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.
Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.
So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?
Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.
Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

R

The builder probably just ordered 1/2" (or whatever) drywall from a
supply house, who provided them with the Chinese stuff. You'd have to
go farther up the supply chain to find out who was really negligent.

Now if a builder *knew* that Chinese drywall was dangerous/defective
when he took delivery of it, you might be able to prove something there.
But proving that would be difficult, even if it were true.

nate


It may be that no one was negligent, at least not initially. It's
possible that everyone involved, from the maker of the drywall on down
didn't realize there was any problem with the raw materials being
used. It's always possible, in hindsight, to say someone "should have
known".

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 02:02:09 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 4:01=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, RicodJour wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:53=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
ups=3D
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.

So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?

Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Replying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

Your understanding of how the legal system works is severely flawed,
which is why you didn't understand my analogy.

I understood your analogy perfectly well. It's just a very bad analogy.

Rule one is to go after the guys with the deepest pockets. The
builder isn't it.

Obviously your own understanding of the legal system could use a little,
umm, enhancement. You can sue anyone you want. *Recovering* from someone who
hasn't any liability might be a bit of a problem, though. If a home is built
with substandard materials, the liability _to the homeowner_ rests with the
builder, not with the manufacturer of the substandard material.


it's not that simple. In this case there has been nothing put forward
that suggests the builder failed in any of his duties. There is no
law that requires him to run tests on drywall for things that have
never happened before. From what I've read, the only party that might
have liability would be the maker of the drywall, and good luck
collecting from some factory in China. For small problems a large
builder will often just fix them, like if a pipe burst in one house
because the copper run was defective he might just fix it. But if it
was discovered that all the copper in an entire subdivision was
defective and the pipes were bursting (like happened with the first
plastic pipes) it would be the pipe manufacturer on the hook, which I
believe is what happened with the plastic pipe.

On Oct 17, 1:45*am, cavelamb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist

Most people didn't.

2) Had no means to check what the builders installed

Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.

3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? *Huh?


If that's all they can get? *Sure.

You honestly believe an established - notice I didn't say honest -
builder would install something he _knew_ would come back to bite him
in the but and result in lawsuits? I think that is just as likely to
happen as your lawyer taking your money and doing nothing, or any
other trade/profession screwing someone over when they knew they were
going to get caught. Such things are in the 1 to 2 percent range at
most.

Every builder's contract has a clause about conditions outside of
their control and limiting their responsibility. The Ignorant one said
the builders "knew everything" about the problem, and still installed
it. There are essentially no cases, no mention, of defective drywall
before the current Chinese created problem. How would these builders
know that there would be a problem? No one had ever encountered it
before.

R

On Oct 17, 1:26*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Oct 16, 3:04*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Oct 16, 12:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada.

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

Your first clue should be the word(s) immediately following the phrases "Made
In" or "Product Of".

Chinese products regularly use false "made in the USA" labels.

Even if it is labeled Made in China does not make it bad.

Again...tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the
bad sheetrock.

The problem is harder than it looks.

TMT

TMT


The Chinese product was used years ago. The chance you'd find it in
a supply yard today is about the same as finding fire retardant
plywood, which was a defective prroduct produced in the USA in the
80's that lead to hundreds of millions in lawsuits.

When it comes time to sue, the usual procedure is to go after everyone
in the chain that was involved, assuming they have some assets or
insurance worthy of a claim, In this case that would seem to be the
builder, perhaps the sub, the supplier, importer, and manufacturer.

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:45 am, cavelamb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers
1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist
Most people didn't.
2) Had no means to check what the builders installed
Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.
3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.
You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? Huh?

If that's all they can get? Sure.

You honestly believe an established - notice I didn't say honest -
builder would install something he _knew_ would come back to bite him
in the but and result in lawsuits? I think that is just as likely to
happen as your lawyer taking your money and doing nothing, or any
other trade/profession screwing someone over when they knew they were
going to get caught. Such things are in the 1 to 2 percent range at
most.

Every builder's contract has a clause about conditions outside of
their control and limiting their responsibility. The Ignorant one said
the builders "knew everything" about the problem, and still installed
it. There are essentially no cases, no mention, of defective drywall
before the current Chinese created problem. How would these builders
know that there would be a problem? No one had ever encountered it
before.

R


It was likely that, or loose his business when he couldn't fulfill the contract.

But I doubt that anybody "knew everything" about what was going on.
So in that respect I'd concur with your last.

On Oct 16, 4:55*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
On 10/16/2009 12:02 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.

Wow. *That's just nutty that the insurance companies are allowed to drop
them because of it. *The car analogy doesn't wash...if I'm in an
accident due to a defective car part I would expect the insurance
company to pay me and then turn around and sue the manufacturer to get
reimbursed.

I wonder if there are any standards on allowable chemical fumes emitted
by drywall? *If there weren't, the insurance companies shouldn't be able
to do this. *If there were, then whoever approved the importing of the
drywall should be on the hook.

The key point here is that this type of problem was never covered
under any homewoner's policy that I've had, nor do I think any policy
would likely cover it. If the furnace turns out to be defective, or
the front door falls apart prematurely, your homeowner's policy won't
pay for it. The reason they are canceling is likely because they
know the risk of them having a claim of a secondary nature is high.
Examples would be the owner deciding to stage a fire to get out of the
problem, or a house guest suing them for medical claims. Now those
would typically be covered.




I bet any housing inspector with a chemical sniffer is going to be in
high demand for the next while.

Chris

On Oct 17, 2:04*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:45*am, cavelamb wrote:





RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist

Most people didn't.

2) Had no means to check what the builders installed

Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.

3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? *Huh?

If that's all they can get? *Sure.

You honestly believe an established - notice I didn't say honest -
builder would install something he _knew_ would come back to bite him
in the but and result in lawsuits? *I think that is just as likely to
happen as your lawyer taking your money and doing nothing, or any
other trade/profession screwing someone over when they knew they were
going to get caught. *Such things are in the 1 to 2 percent range at
most.

Every builder's contract has a clause about conditions outside of
their control and limiting their responsibility. The Ignorant one said
the builders "knew everything" about the problem, and still installed
it. *There are essentially no cases, no mention, of defective drywall
before the current Chinese created problem. *How would these builders
know that there would be a problem? *No one had ever encountered it
before.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, it's amazing how people jump to conclusions. I would think it
likely that the builders or yard carrying the product didn't know
anything about safety issues any more than the home buyer. Was every
toy store that sold the Chinese toys aware that they contained lead?

On Oct 17, 12:31*am, "Bill" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...







"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. *They sell what people will buy. Just
watch your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances,
cars, home goods, etc. *They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if
their mother works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from
lack of sales. . Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for
$119? *I'm a smart shopper, right?

Don't blame the buyers or the sellers--just recognize that (economic)
incentives matter
and the confusion will disappear. *Economic incentives, of course, include
more than
pecuniary ones.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. I wish basic economics would be required in high
school. Then people might understand how markets work.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. They sell what people will buy. Just watch
your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances, cars, home
goods, etc. They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if their mother
works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from lack of sales.
. Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for $119? I'm a smart
shopper, right?


No. A smart shopper would get one free, on Freecycle.org.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

cavelamb wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:45 am, cavelamb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers
1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist
Most people didn't.
2) Had no means to check what the builders installed
Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.
3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.
You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? Huh?

If that's all they can get? Sure.

You honestly believe an established - notice I didn't say honest -
builder would install something he _knew_ would come back to bite him
in the but and result in lawsuits? I think that is just as likely to
happen as your lawyer taking your money and doing nothing, or any
other trade/profession screwing someone over when they knew they were
going to get caught. Such things are in the 1 to 2 percent range at
most.

Every builder's contract has a clause about conditions outside of
their control and limiting their responsibility. The Ignorant one said
the builders "knew everything" about the problem, and still installed
it. There are essentially no cases, no mention, of defective drywall
before the current Chinese created problem. How would these builders
know that there would be a problem? No one had ever encountered it
before.

R

It was likely that, or loose his business when he couldn't fulfill the contract.

But I doubt that anybody "knew everything" about what was going on.
So in that respect I'd concur with your last.


Keep in mind that new drywall always has a slight odor, and there are
a lot of other odors on a construction site. It isn't as obvious until
it is installed in a fairly airtight home, when the fumes build up. The
joint compound, new lumber, paint, caulking and other odors could mask a
lot of odors, and there is a good chance that all the doors and windows
are open while the drywall is hung, finished and painted. Most crews do
an average house in a day or two. I helped some friends rebuild their
home after a major fire. Three of us did the drywall entire house in two
days. The bulk drywall is out in the open on a flatbed truck, where the
fumes can't build up.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

wrote in message
...
On Oct 17, 12:31 am, "Bill" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...







"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max
profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. They sell what people will buy. Just
watch your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances,
cars, home goods, etc. They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if
their mother works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from
lack of sales. . Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for
$119? I'm a smart shopper, right?

Don't blame the buyers or the sellers--just recognize that (economic)
incentives matter
and the confusion will disappear. Economic incentives, of course, include
more than
pecuniary ones.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. I wish basic economics would be required in high
school. Then people might understand how markets work.


Thanks, I was worried somebody would give me a bad time about it.
Back to woodworking posts for me.