In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Oct 16, 3:04=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

Your first clue should be the word(s) immediately following the phrases "Made
In" or "Product Of".

Chinese products regularly use false "made in the USA" labels.

Even if it is labeled Made in China does not make it bad.

Again...tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the
bad sheetrock.

Your second clue should be the brand name.

The problem is harder than it looks.

Yes, you *do* seem to have trouble with a lot of simple things.

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:


Obviously your own understanding of the legal system could use a little,
umm, enhancement. You can sue anyone you want. *Recovering* from someone who
hasn't any liability might be a bit of a problem, though. If a home is built
with substandard materials, the liability _to the homeowner_ rests with the
builder, not with the manufacturer of the substandard material.

One does not have insurance to afford to lose a suit. One has
insurance to afford to WIN it.

--
An old friend once said "You don't live on the edge,
you're taking up way too much space."
Scott Kirby "Lucky Enough"

In article ,
Steve Stone wrote:


Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Capitalism at its finest. Give the customer exactly what they are
willing pay for. That is why WalMart is making money and Macy's not so
much.

--
An old friend once said "You don't live on the edge,
you're taking up way too much space."
Scott Kirby "Lucky Enough"

In article , Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:


Obviously your own understanding of the legal system could use a little,
umm, enhancement. You can sue anyone you want. *Recovering* from someone who
hasn't any liability might be a bit of a problem, though. If a home is built
with substandard materials, the liability _to the homeowner_ rests with the
builder, not with the manufacturer of the substandard material.

One does not have insurance to afford to lose a suit. One has
insurance to afford to WIN it.

Non-sequitur.

In article ,

One does not have insurance to afford to lose a suit. One has
insurance to afford to WIN it.

Non-sequitur.

Not at all. One does not have insurance to pay for losing a suit. One
has insurance to pay the attorneys to fight it.

--
An old friend once said "You don't live on the edge,
you're taking up way too much space."
Scott Kirby "Lucky Enough"

On Oct 17, 5:08*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

Well, maybe not most of it. The 'squeal like a pig scene' was the
next best thing. Read up sometime on what went on when they filmed
that. =:O

R

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:04:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 17, 1:45Â*am, cavelamb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist

Most people didn't.

2) Had no means to check what the builders installed

Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.

3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? Â*Huh?


If that's all they can get? Â*Sure.

You honestly believe an established - notice I didn't say honest -
builder would install something he _knew_ would come back to bite him
in the but and result in lawsuits? I think that is just as likely to
happen as your lawyer taking your money and doing nothing, or any
other trade/profession screwing someone over when they knew they were
going to get caught. Such things are in the 1 to 2 percent range at
most.

Seams to be a bit higher in the investment/financial services sector
these days - and even 1 to 2 percent is WAY too high.

Every builder's contract has a clause about conditions outside of
their control and limiting their responsibility. The Ignorant one said
the builders "knew everything" about the problem, and still installed
it. There are essentially no cases, no mention, of defective drywall
before the current Chinese created problem. How would these builders
know that there would be a problem? No one had ever encountered it
before.

R

Steve Stone writes:

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET


American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

You didn't actually _read_ the article, did you? The Chinese drywall was
used because the demand exceeded the American supply. USG seems to do pretty
well making gypsum product's domestically.

We now live in Las Vegas, where during the 2001-2007 time frame,
hundreds of thousands of new homes were built during a real estate
feeding frenzy. While we lucked out on the drywall issue here
(several gyp mines locally and all local drywall), there were
other alleged construction defects that were or are being
litigated or negotiated. As far as I know, no contractor or
subcontractor knowingly installed anything that would have harmed
a home or the occupants. However, the litigators really had a
feeding frenzy with construction defect suits.

One of the fights here involved the elimination of weep screeds at
the bottom of stucco siding. Another involved Kitec plumbing
fittings and flexible piping, while another involved a different
reinforcement in slabs. There are also issues even with copper
pipe that comes in contact with soil under a slab. In NC, we had
the issue of disintegration of man made lap siding and
delamination of man made stucco over foam.

My reason for mentioning this is to illustrate my belief that
virtually any change from the old, tried and true methods or
materials of construction carries risk of varying degree. Homes
are built to last for generations and Murphy's Law applies to new
materials, construction techniques, different suppliers and man
made anything installed in a home. Even the most benign change
from what's been done for years and years with success can result
in a construction defect.

The insurance companies were dinged badly with the black mold
issue of the 90's. Whenever somebody discovered mold, even after
a window leaked for years, it was considered to be an insurable
event. Now, the folk with drywall problems are feeling the
spin-off effect. Insurance companies might exclude drywall
related issues in policies, but some judge somewhere at some time
will decide for the "social good" to make them responsible. Their
only hope to escape this is to cancel or refuse to renew policies
once they become aware of the drywall problem. I sure can't blame
them, since it's a huge liability otherwise.
--
Nonny

Live a good and honorable life.
Then when you get older and
think back, you'll enjoy it
a second time.

On Oct 17, 2:32*am, wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:26*am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:





On Oct 16, 3:04*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Oct 16, 12:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It also means that any sheetrock you use from now on is suspect.

More nonsense (like nearly everything you post). There is no reason at all to
be suspicious of sheetrock that was manufactured in the U.S. or Canada.

Tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the bad
sheetrock.

Your first clue should be the word(s) immediately following the phrases "Made
In" or "Product Of".

Chinese products regularly use false "made in the USA" labels.

Even if it is labeled Made in China does not make it bad.

Again...tell us how to tell the difference between the good and the
bad sheetrock.

The problem is harder than it looks.

TMT

TMT

The Chinese product was used years ago. * The chance you'd find it in
a supply yard today is about the same as finding fire retardant
plywood, which was a defective prroduct produced in the USA in the
80's that lead to hundreds of millions in lawsuits.

When it comes time to sue, the usual procedure is to go after everyone
in the chain that was involved, assuming they have some assets or
insurance worthy of a claim, * In this case that would seem to be the
builder, perhaps the sub, the supplier, importer, and manufacturer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How do you know that it is "used up"?

Once you have defective material in the supply chain, you never know
when it will turn up.

I agree on the line of liability.

Bring deep pockets to any court.


TMT

On Oct 17, 2:40*am, wrote:
On Oct 16, 4:55*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:





On 10/16/2009 12:02 AM, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Anyone buying a house now or in the future should read this article.

Bear this in mind if you sheetrock your shop in the future.

Wow. *That's just nutty that the insurance companies are allowed to drop
them because of it. *The car analogy doesn't wash...if I'm in an
accident due to a defective car part I would expect the insurance
company to pay me and then turn around and sue the manufacturer to get
reimbursed.

I wonder if there are any standards on allowable chemical fumes emitted
by drywall? *If there weren't, the insurance companies shouldn't be able
to do this. *If there were, then whoever approved the importing of the
drywall should be on the hook.

The key point here is that this type of problem was never covered
under any homewoner's policy that I've had, nor do I think any policy
would likely cover it. * *If the furnace turns out to be defective, or
the front door falls apart prematurely, your homeowner's policy won't
pay for it. * The reason they are canceling is likely because they
know the risk of them having a claim of a secondary nature is high.
Examples would be the owner deciding to stage a fire to get out of the
problem, or a house guest suing them for medical claims. *Now those
would typically be covered.





I bet any housing inspector with a chemical sniffer is going to be in
high demand for the next while.

Chris- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you are right.

The first claim is not the last one in a corrosive environment.

TMT

On Oct 17, 2:46*am, wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:04*am, RicodJour wrote:





On Oct 17, 1:45*am, cavelamb wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:50 am, Ignoramus15879 ignoramus15...@NOSPAM.
15879.invalid wrote:
It would appear that in this instance, home buyers

1) Had no clue that bad drywall could exist

Most people didn't.

2) Had no means to check what the builders installed

Well, yeah, it's kind of tough to test for something you don't know is
a problem.

3) Were deceived by home builders, who likely knew everything but
chose not to inform buyers.

You think builders knowingly installed material they knew to be
faulty? *Huh?

If that's all they can get? *Sure.

You honestly believe an established - notice I didn't say honest -
builder would install something he _knew_ would come back to bite him
in the but and result in lawsuits? *I think that is just as likely to
happen as your lawyer taking your money and doing nothing, or any
other trade/profession screwing someone over when they knew they were
going to get caught. *Such things are in the 1 to 2 percent range at
most.

Every builder's contract has a clause about conditions outside of
their control and limiting their responsibility. The Ignorant one said
the builders "knew everything" about the problem, and still installed
it. *There are essentially no cases, no mention, of defective drywall
before the current Chinese created problem. *How would these builders
know that there would be a problem? *No one had ever encountered it
before.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, it's amazing how people jump to conclusions. * I would think it
likely that the builders or yard carrying the product didn't know
anything about safety issues any more than the home buyer. * Was every
toy store that sold the Chinese toys aware that they contained lead?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They are now.

And are liable from now.

TMT

On Oct 17, 2:51*am, wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:31*am, "Bill" wrote:





"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

m...

"Steve Stone" wrote in message
...

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.
Make sure it is not made in the USA where oversight and living wages
reduce your profit margin.

Don't just blame the businesses. *They sell what people will buy. Just
watch your neighbors shop for the lowest possible price on appliances,
cars, home goods, etc. *They will buy the China stuff to save $5 even if
their mother works for the US appliance maker and will get laid off from
lack of sales. . Why pay $129 for that color TV when I can get it for
$119? *I'm a smart shopper, right?

Don't blame the buyers or the sellers--just recognize that (economic)
incentives matter
and the confusion will disappear. *Economic incentives, of course, include
more than
pecuniary ones.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. * I wish basic economics would be required in high
school. * *Then people might *understand how markets work.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It should be.

TMT

On Oct 17, 9:41*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 17, 5:08*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:



The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

Well, maybe not most of it. *The 'squeal like a pig scene' was the
next best thing. *Read up sometime on what went on when they filmed
that. *=:O

R

LOL...they are Republican home movies.

TMT

On Oct 17, 1:27*pm, "Nonny" wrote:
We now live in Las Vegas, where during the 2001-2007 time frame,
hundreds of thousands of new homes were built during a real estate
feeding frenzy. *While we lucked out on the drywall issue here
(several gyp mines locally and all local drywall), there were
other alleged construction defects that were or are being
litigated or negotiated. *As far as I know, no contractor or
subcontractor knowingly installed anything that would have harmed
a home or the occupants. *However, the litigators really had a
feeding frenzy with construction defect suits.

One of the fights here involved the elimination of weep screeds at
the bottom of stucco siding. *Another involved Kitec plumbing
fittings and flexible piping, while another involved a different
reinforcement in slabs. *There are also issues even with copper
pipe that comes in contact with soil under a slab. *In NC, we had
the issue of disintegration of man made lap siding and
delamination of man made stucco over foam.

My reason for mentioning this is to illustrate my belief that
virtually any change from the old, tried and true methods or
materials of construction carries risk of varying degree. *Homes
are built to last for generations and Murphy's Law applies to new
materials, construction techniques, different suppliers and man
made anything installed in a home. *Even the most benign change
from what's been done for years and years with success can result
in a construction defect.

The insurance companies were dinged badly with the black mold
issue of the 90's. *Whenever somebody discovered mold, even after
a window leaked for years, it was considered to be an insurable
event. *Now, the folk with drywall problems are feeling the
spin-off effect. *Insurance companies might exclude drywall
related issues in policies, but some judge somewhere at some time
will decide for the "social good" to make them responsible. *Their
only hope to escape this is to cancel or refuse to renew policies
once they become aware of the drywall problem. *I sure can't blame
them, since it's a huge liability otherwise.
--
Nonny

Live a good and honorable life.
Then when you get older and
think back, you'll enjoy it
a second time.

Well said.

TMT

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:27:52 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:

We now live in Las Vegas, where during the 2001-2007 time frame,
hundreds of thousands of new homes were built during a real estate
feeding frenzy. While we lucked out on the drywall issue here
(several gyp mines locally and all local drywall), there were
other alleged construction defects that were or are being
litigated or negotiated. As far as I know, no contractor or
subcontractor knowingly installed anything that would have harmed
a home or the occupants. However, the litigators really had a
feeding frenzy with construction defect suits.

One of the fights here involved the elimination of weep screeds at
the bottom of stucco siding. Another involved Kitec plumbing
fittings and flexible piping, while another involved a different
reinforcement in slabs. There are also issues even with copper
pipe that comes in contact with soil under a slab. In NC, we had
the issue of disintegration of man made lap siding and
delamination of man made stucco over foam.

My reason for mentioning this is to illustrate my belief that
virtually any change from the old, tried and true methods or
materials of construction carries risk of varying degree. Homes
are built to last for generations and Murphy's Law applies to new
materials, construction techniques, different suppliers and man
made anything installed in a home. Even the most benign change
from what's been done for years and years with success can result
in a construction defect.

The insurance companies were dinged badly with the black mold
issue of the 90's. Whenever somebody discovered mold, even after
a window leaked for years, it was considered to be an insurable
event. Now, the folk with drywall problems are feeling the
spin-off effect. Insurance companies might exclude drywall
related issues in policies, but some judge somewhere at some time
will decide for the "social good" to make them responsible. Their
only hope to escape this is to cancel or refuse to renew policies
once they become aware of the drywall problem. I sure can't blame
them, since it's a huge liability otherwise.

In Las Vegas, Sun City Summerlin found defects in homes, built pre
1995. Homes with PEX pipes and some brass connectors (Zurn ??!). The
connectors were made in Canada. They contained to much Zinc during
the manufacturing and corroded years later, leaked behind stucco,
caused mold, on and on.

The judge declared a class action case. IIRC, they went after the
Canadian company and the builder.

It might still be pending - dunno.

http://www.theplumber.com/theleaksgoon.html

On Oct 17, 10:34*am, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
*Steve Stone wrote:



Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies
By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated
Press Writer
Thu Oct 15, 2:10 pm ET

American Capitalism at its finest.
Buy the cheapest crap you can and charge the most you can for max profit.

terry wrote:

Denying insurance coverage for something a citizen had no control over
is inhuman.

You had better go read your insurance policies in detail. You are seriously
confused about what they do. -- Doug

"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message
...
terry wrote:

Denying insurance coverage for something a citizen had no control over
is inhuman.

You had better go read your insurance policies in detail. You are
seriously
confused about what they do. -- Doug

Why would you expect insurance to fix constuction problems? Replace my
stove because it was lemon? Pay to paint the house, as the weather
destroyed the paint after 15 years? You want insurance for bad
construction, you are going to have to pay for a policy for that. Not a
normal policy that covers accidents. Sue the builder and supplier and the
company that made the sheetrock.

terry wrote:

Denying insurance coverage for something a citizen had no control over
is inhuman.

Homeowner's insurance is to cover loss from certain damages and to cover
fire, theft, medical expenses if someone is injured on your property and
things of that nature. The coverage is very specific and is listed in the
policy.

There is nothing in the policy about defective materials in a house. They
are not denying coverage, you never had it and you never paid for it.
Insurance is a business transaction. You pay a premium for specific items
covered. Nothing inhumane about it at all.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:
On Oct 16, 1:53=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article =
..com, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would agree...the problem seems to be the lack of retrieving damages
from the manufacturers and importers of the bad sheetrock.

Nonsense. The homeowners need to go after the *builders* who used low-quality
materials.
So, if your brand new car burst into flame you'd sue the dealer?

Of course not. I'd sue the manufacturer of the car. Just like the owners of
the homes with Chinese drywall need to do: sue the manufacturer of the home.

Relying to nonsense with nonsense doesn't make sense.

Your analogy is, to put it charitably, severely flawed.

Hint #1: Who is the manufacturer of a house?
Hint #2: It's not the company that made the drywall, or the forester that
grew the trees that the framing was milled from.

LOL, and you'd have a hard time going after the drywall manufacturer in
China!

The builder is the one to go after. They have the deepest pockets and
they have insurance to cover this sort of thing.

I have a rental townhouse where after four years some latent defects
showed up. We didn't even have to threaten to sue, we went straight to
the builder's insurance company, even though the builder was out of
business they had had to purchase insurance against latent defects. We
were lucky, just some decks that had footings that were sinking that
cost the insurer only maybe $80,000 to fix while a nearby complex had
upper level decks that were falling off the building due to poor materials.

It's scary to look at some of the building materials used in new
construction.