Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

In article , Darro wrote:
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

Why were you doing this on a live circuit?

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches.

How do you know the switches still have power? Did you verify that with a
meter or test lamp?

If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

I see no evidence that the breaker is on; in fact, you've provided some
persuasive evidence that it's not.

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Probably because you tripped the breaker.

Darro wrote:

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

It's because they are broken. Buy new ones, and they should work.

Jon

On Sep 19, 7:59*pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Darro wrote:

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

It's because they are broken. *Buy new ones, and they should work.

Jon

Manually throw the breaker to the off position, then on, then off,
then on again and see what happens. If no light, you may have fried
the dimmer switch.

donmorgan had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...rd-395627-.htm
:
Working on a live circuit can be dangerous. If you do indeed have power to
the switches and can confirm this the problem could be that the switches
are electronic and not mechanical. They probably are electronic if they
are dimmers. Meaning that they use transistors or integrated circuits to
function. If you caused a surge by shorting them out you could have
damaged the circuitry. The only one affected should be the one that was
surged. In a three way configuration the switches work together to pass
the power between each other and on to the light. If one goes bad this can
stop the flow back and forth between the switches and the light fixture.

"Jon Danniken" wrote in
:

Darro wrote:

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

It's because they are broken. Buy new ones, and they should work.

Jon



Most new dimmers are electronic (using a triac). Not very forgiving to
shorts...or as Jon said in a nutshell, iz broke.

ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

I suggest you call an electrician.



"Darro" wrote in message
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

In article , "Bill" wrote:
ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

Complete and utter nonsense.

Turning off the branch circuit you're working on is quite sufficient to ensure
safety.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 00:37:22 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Darro wrote:
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

Why were you doing this on a live circuit?

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches.

How do you know the switches still have power? Did you verify that with a
meter or test lamp?

If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

I see no evidence that the breaker is on; in fact, you've provided some
persuasive evidence that it's not.

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Probably because you tripped the breaker.

If he got a spark it's pretty obvious he was working on a live
circuit. I do it all the time - carefully of course.
If indeed the breaker is on, and power at the switches, he likely blew
the dimmer switch. They are not particularly robust.

If you want fun, try replacing a main service panel with the system
live!!!!!

On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 05:31:53 -0700, "Bill"
wrote:

ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

I suggest you call an electrician.

Tuyrn off the MAIN power?????
NO way. Just throw the breaker on the circuit you are working on - or
keep one hand in your pocket if you have an idea what you are doing.

If you don't have a good idea what you are doing, call in a "sparky"



"Darro" wrote in message
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

On Sep 21, 10:49*am, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On Sep 19, 7:59 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Darro wrote:

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.
It's because they are broken. *Buy new ones, and they should work.

Jon

Manually throw the breaker to the off position, then on, then off,
then on again and see what happens. *If no *light, you may have fried
the dimmer switch.

This would be my answer too.

Regarding this thread am sure the advice is good and well intentioned.
But IMO don't think the OP is sufficiently knowledgeable to absorb it
and/or act upon it; safely.
Starting with moving one of the switches on a live circuit, without
first checking and shutting off at least the circuit breaker for
'that' circuit.
When it comes to shutting off 'all' power in, say, a house. Not
necessarily essential but may be appropriate if there is a lot of
doubt or confusion and/or if the original wiring/ circuitry has been
messed about with, modified and/or obviuosly non standard circuits
have been added.

On Sep 21, 12:16*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
Bill wrote:
ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

I suggest you call an electrician.

"Darro" *wrote in message
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

I work on live circuits all the time. I'm still here.
If you know how current flows you can avoid it flowing through you.
If you are a complete idiot, shut off the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And if you have a sudden need for the bathroom halfway through, and
wife/child/pet comes in to see the pretty wires while you're gone???

There are times when you have no choice but to work live. When you
have a choice, usually better to be 100% safe than 95%.

That's at home. At work it's a different story. OSHA applies, and
most of the time you are forbidden to work live. Zero Energy State,
Lockout Tagout, etc.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:31:48 -0700 (PDT), stan
wrote:

On Sep 21, 10:49Â*am, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On Sep 19, 7:59 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
Darro wrote:

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.
It's because they are broken. Â*Buy new ones, and they should work.

Jon

Manually throw the breaker to the off position, then on, then off,
then on again and see what happens. Â*If no Â*light, you may have fried
the dimmer switch.

This would be my answer too.

Regarding this thread am sure the advice is good and well intentioned.
But IMO don't think the OP is sufficiently knowledgeable to absorb it
and/or act upon it; safely.
Starting with moving one of the switches on a live circuit, without
first checking and shutting off at least the circuit breaker for
'that' circuit.
When it comes to shutting off 'all' power in, say, a house. Not
necessarily essential but may be appropriate if there is a lot of
doubt or confusion and/or if the original wiring/ circuitry has been
messed about with, modified and/or obviuosly non standard circuits
have been added.


I've been changing switches on live circuits for something better than
40 years - not a shock yet, and only burned off one screw driver,
about 40 years back.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:42:47 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Sep 21, 12:16Â*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
Bill wrote:
ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

I suggest you call an electrician.

"Darro" Â*wrote in message
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

I work on live circuits all the time. I'm still here.
If you know how current flows you can avoid it flowing through you.
If you are a complete idiot, shut off the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And if you have a sudden need for the bathroom halfway through, and
wife/child/pet comes in to see the pretty wires while you're gone???

There are times when you have no choice but to work live. When you
have a choice, usually better to be 100% safe than 95%.

That's at home. At work it's a different story. OSHA applies, and
most of the time you are forbidden to work live. Zero Energy State,
Lockout Tagout, etc.

You put a wire nut on the end if you need to leave a wire live.

On Sep 21, 1:28*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:42:47 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:





On Sep 21, 12:16*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
Bill wrote:
ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

I suggest you call an electrician.

"Darro" *wrote in message
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

I work on live circuits all the time. I'm still here.
If you know how current flows you can avoid it flowing through you.
If you are a complete idiot, shut off the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And if you have a sudden need for the bathroom halfway through, and
wife/child/pet comes in to see the pretty wires while you're gone???

There are times when you have no choice but to work live. *When you
have a choice, usually better to be 100% safe than 95%.

That's at home. *At work it's a different story. *OSHA applies, and
most of the time you are forbidden to work live. *Zero Energy State,
Lockout Tagout, etc.

You put a wire nut on the end if you need to leave a wire live.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't mean to offend you personally, but I'll point out something.

I've seen a lot of maintenance workers and mechanics over the years in
industrial settings.

Without exception - without exception! the ones who were sloppy about
killing the circuit power or other safety habits were also sloppy
about doing a good job. It was like carrying a sign - "check my work,
twice, 'cause it's not gonna be right the first time."

I know that's kind of biased. And you may do perfectly competent
craftsmanlike work yourself. But just as a warning, if I know you
work live when the circuit breaker is a few feet away, I and most of
my peers have concluded you're going to do a half-arsed job, and we're
not going to hire you.

It's not easy to figure out who WILL do good work. But there are some
clues as to who will NOT, and this is one of them. Sorry if it
targets you unfairly.

Of course in your own home, how you do your DIY is up to you.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:04:46 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Sep 21, 1:28Â*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:42:47 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:





On Sep 21, 12:16Â*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
Bill wrote:
ALWAYS turn off the main power to the house before doing electrical work!

I suggest you call an electrician.

"Darro" Â*wrote in message
Hi,

I caused a problem with an electrical circuit and would like to know
whether it's a hazard until my electrician has a chance to check
things out.

Scenario:
Two switches (a dimmer switch and a standard toggle switch
--three-way, I think) in two locations control the same two hallway
light fixtures.

As I was pulling the toggle switch out of its metal box, one of its
terminals touched the side of the box and sparked once for a fraction
of a second until contact between the terminal and box was broken.

The switches no longer turn on the light fixtures even though power is
still being delivered to the switches. If I leave the circuit breaker
on (my preference for reasons I won't go into here), would that be a
hazardous thing to do, and if so, why?

And if anyone has an idea of why the switches no longer turn on the
lights, I'd be very interested in knowing that too.

Thanks in advance for your replies,
Darro

I work on live circuits all the time. I'm still here.
If you know how current flows you can avoid it flowing through you.
If you are a complete idiot, shut off the breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And if you have a sudden need for the bathroom halfway through, and
wife/child/pet comes in to see the pretty wires while you're gone???

There are times when you have no choice but to work live. Â*When you
have a choice, usually better to be 100% safe than 95%.

That's at home. Â*At work it's a different story. Â*OSHA applies, and
most of the time you are forbidden to work live. Â*Zero Energy State,
Lockout Tagout, etc.

You put a wire nut on the end if you need to leave a wire live.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't mean to offend you personally, but I'll point out something.

I've seen a lot of maintenance workers and mechanics over the years in
industrial settings.

Without exception - without exception! the ones who were sloppy about
killing the circuit power or other safety habits were also sloppy
about doing a good job. It was like carrying a sign - "check my work,
twice, 'cause it's not gonna be right the first time."

I know that's kind of biased. And you may do perfectly competent
craftsmanlike work yourself. But just as a warning, if I know you
work live when the circuit breaker is a few feet away, I and most of
my peers have concluded you're going to do a half-arsed job, and we're
not going to hire you.

It's not easy to figure out who WILL do good work. But there are some
clues as to who will NOT, and this is one of them. Sorry if it
targets you unfairly.

Of course in your own home, how you do your DIY is up to you.

When the breaker is 3 floors down at the other end of the building and
the only light to work by is on the same circuit, it is safer to keep
that light on and work live than to shut the power off and try to work
holding a flashlight.
Generally on 220 volt and dedicated power circuits I DO shut off the
power.

However, when the main breaker on the cottage panel blew, friday of a
wintery long weekend, we just grabbed a new panel and breakers before
the stores closed, and changed the panel without pulling the
meter.Wives holding the flashlights, tape up the ends of the wires
pulled from the main breaker, strip out all the branch circuit wires,
yank the panel, feed the taped wires onto the top of the new panel,
connect to the main breaker, connect the circuit that lights the
basement, and shut off the flashlights. Then finish the wiring (get
the heat on PRONTO!!!,) then the rest of the cottage.

Generally with light switches I'm troubleshooting live (really no
other way to do it, particularly with 3 ways)) and when I find a bad
switch I just pull it and replace it.

wrote:

However, when the main breaker on the cottage panel blew, friday of a
wintery long weekend, we just grabbed a new panel and breakers before
the stores closed, and changed the panel without pulling the
meter.Wives holding the flashlights, tape up the ends of the wires
pulled from the main breaker, strip out all the branch circuit wires,
yank the panel, feed the taped wires onto the top of the new panel,
connect to the main breaker, connect the circuit that lights the
basement, and shut off the flashlights. Then finish the wiring (get
the heat on PRONTO!!!,) then the rest of the cottage.


I'd have called the power company and told them I was cutting the seal due
to an emergency. If they want to send a representative out to check, we'll
be in the back yard laboring in the cold and the dark and the wet.

What you did is not all that unusual. After all, what do contractors do when
they install a new meter box and have to work with the drops?

They use caution, that's what they do.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:26:24 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:

However, when the main breaker on the cottage panel blew, friday of a
wintery long weekend, we just grabbed a new panel and breakers before
the stores closed, and changed the panel without pulling the
meter.Wives holding the flashlights, tape up the ends of the wires
pulled from the main breaker, strip out all the branch circuit wires,
yank the panel, feed the taped wires onto the top of the new panel,
connect to the main breaker, connect the circuit that lights the
basement, and shut off the flashlights. Then finish the wiring (get
the heat on PRONTO!!!,) then the rest of the cottage.


I'd have called the power company and told them I was cutting the seal due
to an emergency. If they want to send a representative out to check, we'll
be in the back yard laboring in the cold and the dark and the wet.

What you did is not all that unusual. After all, what do contractors do when
they install a new meter box and have to work with the drops?

They use caution, that's what they do.

Knowledge is power.
It's all about knowing what you are doing, and how to do it safely. If
you know the dangers and how to handle them, there is not a lot of
dangerous work out there.

On Sep 22, 8:21�am, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 06:26:24 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:





wrote:

However, when the main breaker on the cottage panel blew, friday of a
wintery long weekend, we just grabbed a new panel and breakers before
the stores closed, and changed the panel without pulling the
meter.Wives holding the flashlights, tape up the ends of the wires
pulled from the main breaker, strip out all the branch circuit wires,
yank the panel, feed the taped wires onto the top of the new panel,
connect to the main breaker, connect the circuit that lights the
basement, and shut off the flashlights. Then finish the wiring (get
the heat on PRONTO!!!,) then the rest of the cottage.

I'd have called the power company and told them I was cutting the seal due
to an emergency. If they want to send a representative out to check, we'll
be in the back yard laboring in the cold and the dark and the wet.

What you did is not all that unusual. After all, what do contractors do when
they install a new meter box and have to work with the drops?

They use caution, that's what they do.

Knowledge is power.
It's all about knowing what you are doing, and how to do it safely. If
you know the dangers and how to handle them, there is not a lot of
dangerous work out there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have pulled meters, no biggie for me or the power company

They just want to be notified on the next business day.

One time a fuse broke off in the panel there was no other safe way
to remove it.

I work on powered up machines at my job regurally but prefer to pull
plug when convenient

wrote:

I'd have called the power company and told them I was cutting the
seal due to an emergency. If they want to send a representative out
to check, we'll be in the back yard laboring in the cold and the
dark and the wet.

What you did is not all that unusual. After all, what do contractors
do when they install a new meter box and have to work with the drops?

They use caution, that's what they do.

Knowledge is power.
It's all about knowing what you are doing, and how to do it safely. If
you know the dangers and how to handle them, there is not a lot of
dangerous work out there.

Same with marriages.