I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a Siemens and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole house secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor. What is the difference and which is the better one to get?

Thx
Gary

In article ,
"Gary" wrote:

I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a
Siemens and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole house
secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor.
What is the difference and which is the better one to get?

Thx
Gary

I don't know. But if you don't know the difference, then why do you want
one at all? If you can answer the question "what is it you want to do?"
then it seems to me you'll know which one to get. How did you come to
narrow down a thousand choices into two, anyway?

Its quite simple. I want a whole house surge protector and my panel is a
Siemens. I went to their site and they had 2 options of surge suppression.
I have lots of digital and electronic equipment in my house and I want to
protect it.

Why are you asking such an odd questions as "why would I want one at all"?
"A thousand choices"? What is that about. I said I had two choices. And I
know I want one of them.

Thankfully there are people on this NG who ARE helpful and knowledgeable.

But thanks for your "I don't know".

Gary ;-)
"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Gary" wrote:

I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a
Siemens and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole
house
secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor.
What is the difference and which is the better one to get?

Thx
Gary

I don't know. But if you don't know the difference, then why do you want
one at all? If you can answer the question "what is it you want to do?"
then it seems to me you'll know which one to get. How did you come to
narrow down a thousand choices into two, anyway?

In article ,
"Gary" wrote:

Its quite simple. I want a whole house surge protector and my panel is a
Siemens. I went to their site and they had 2 options of surge suppression.
I have lots of digital and electronic equipment in my house and I want to
protect it.

Why are you asking such an odd questions as "why would I want one at all"?
"A thousand choices"? What is that about. I said I had two choices. And I
know I want one of them.

Thankfully there are people on this NG who ARE helpful and knowledgeable.

But thanks for your "I don't know".



Ah, you want helpful and knowledgeable. OK, here's one: Don't top post.

If you don't know why you want a surge protector, then you're just
another sucker with too much money, who believes in imaginary goblins in
the power line.

Now, if you know for sure that your incoming AC is afflicted with a
certain anomaly, and you know for certain that some one or more of your
toys are susceptible to that anomaly, then by all mean, buy the gizmo
that fits the bill.

Otherwise, just get a couple of $10 power strips that are "guaranteed"
to protect all your "sensitive electronics." You know, $2 for the
hardware, and $8 for the insurance premium.

Your digital and electronic equipment does *not* run on 120 VAC, by the
way. Let's see, first it goes through a transformer, then a rectifier,
then a few filters, then a regulator or two. Which mosquito on the AC
line was it that survives all that, again? I keep forgetting.

On Mar 2, 1:09*pm, "Gary" wrote:
I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. *It is a Siemens
and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. *One is whole house
secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor. *

Both do same. Both connect surges 'less than 10 feet' into earth
ground if properly installed. However one has a higher joules
rating. Therefore would have a longer life expectancy.

See that attached (coiled) wire? A shorter connection to earth
means that protector performs better. Critical to protection is how a
protector connects to earth.

If new breakers are not needed, then a better alternative may be the
attached (higher joule) protector such as Siemens TPSA9040, which is
more than 1000 joules. Others that can also attach to a Siemens box
include Intermatic and Cutler Hammer with even higher joules ratings.
A Cutler Hammer version is sold in Lowes.

Of course, the short connection to earth ground makes a protector
effective. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protectors
do not provide protection. Every effective protector diverts
(connects, shunts) surges harmlessly into earth. Earth ground means
energy from direct lightning strikes is harmlessly dissipated without
entering the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth
ground – which is why some manufactures promote mythical warranties
hoping to deceive the naïve.

Verify that breaker box earthing both meets and exceeds post 1990
codes and that all incoming utility 'whole house' protectors (such as
the required one provided free by the telco) also make a short
connection to same earthing. A 'whole house' protector that costs
tens or even 100 times less money means everything (including critical
items such as the furnace and smoke detectors) are also protected.
Even the dishwasher is protected. A $10 recommendation costs more
money, does not even claim to protect, and is known to be ineffective
when one does not worry about irrelevant nonsense such as top
posting. One 'whole house' protector is the least expensive and best
protector if properly earthed. Provided are some other and maybe
better alternatives. Critically import is the earthing of other surge
protected utilities also 'less than 10 feet' to the same earth
ground. Ground being the reason why ‘whole house’ protectors are so
effective. Higher joules means longer protector life expectancy.

"westom" wrote in message
...
On Mar 2, 1:09 pm, "Gary" wrote:
I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a
Siemens
and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole house
secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor.

Both do same. Both connect surges 'less than 10 feet' into earth
ground if properly installed. However one has a higher joules
rating. Therefore would have a longer life expectancy.

See that attached (coiled) wire? A shorter connection to earth
means that protector performs better. Critical to protection is how a
protector connects to earth.

If new breakers are not needed, then a better alternative may be the
attached (higher joule) protector such as Siemens TPSA9040, which is
more than 1000 joules. Others that can also attach to a Siemens box
include Intermatic and Cutler Hammer with even higher joules ratings.
A Cutler Hammer version is sold in Lowes.

Of course, the short connection to earth ground makes a protector
effective. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protectors
do not provide protection. Every effective protector diverts
(connects, shunts) surges harmlessly into earth. Earth ground means
energy from direct lightning strikes is harmlessly dissipated without
entering the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth
ground – which is why some manufactures promote mythical warranties
hoping to deceive the naïve.

Verify that breaker box earthing both meets and exceeds post 1990
codes and that all incoming utility 'whole house' protectors (such as
the required one provided free by the telco) also make a short
connection to same earthing. A 'whole house' protector that costs
tens or even 100 times less money means everything (including critical
items such as the furnace and smoke detectors) are also protected.
Even the dishwasher is protected. A $10 recommendation costs more
money, does not even claim to protect, and is known to be ineffective
when one does not worry about irrelevant nonsense such as top
posting. One 'whole house' protector is the least expensive and best
protector if properly earthed. Provided are some other and maybe
better alternatives. Critically import is the earthing of other surge
protected utilities also 'less than 10 feet' to the same earth
ground. Ground being the reason why ‘whole house’ protectors are so
effective. Higher joules means longer protector life expectancy.


*Exactly. If you have no ground those surge suppressors can be dangerous
during a lightning strike. They will absorb the current, but without a
place to dissipate it they could explode.
http://www.mrelectrician.tv/question...rs.html#ground

"Gary" wrote in message ...
I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a Siemens and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole house secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor. What is the difference and which is the better one to get?

Thx
Gary


*Here is more info on the Siemens products. The TVSS has a lower clamping voltage. http://www.mrelectrician.tv/surgeprotectionbasics.html

In order for these products to be most effective you need a good grounding system for your house. Of course if you had a good grounding system then you may not need the surge suppressors.

On Mar 3, 2:06*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

*"Gary" wrote:
Its quite simple. *I want a whole house surge protector and my panel is a
Siemens. *I went to their site and they had 2 options of surge suppression.
I have lots of digital and electronic equipment in my house and I want to
protect it.

Why are you asking such an odd questions as "why would I want one at all"?
"A thousand choices"? *What is that about. *I said I had two choices. And I
know I want one of them.

Thankfully there are people on this NG who ARE helpful and knowledgeable.

But thanks for your "I don't know".

Ah, you want helpful and knowledgeable. OK, here's one: Don't top post.

If you don't know why you want a surge protector, then you're just
another sucker with too much money, who believes in imaginary goblins in
the power line.

Now, if you know for sure that your incoming AC is afflicted with a
certain anomaly, and you know for certain that some one or more of your
toys are susceptible to that anomaly, then by all mean, buy the gizmo
that fits the bill.

All incoming AC lines have incoming surges of one type or another.
Lightening striking a utility line a mile from the home is the classic
example that can send a surge into homes. We've had enough threads
here and citations from credible sources, ie IEEE, NIST, etc that this
really isn't disputable. All these sources recommend that homes have
panel based whole house surge protection.

So, the question he asked is a very reasonable one. I'd say the
answer is the QSA2020TVSS begins clamping at a lower voltage and has a
rating for limiting the max voltage of very sharp, short duration
impulses. Those considerations, plus the fact that the QSA2020 is
described as the economy model, would make the QSA2020TVSS my first
choice.





Otherwise, just get a couple of $10 power strips that are "guaranteed"
to protect all your "sensitive electronics." You know, $2 for the
hardware, and $8 for the insurance premium.

Your digital and electronic equipment does *not* run on 120 VAC, by the
way. Let's see, first it goes through a transformer, then a rectifier,
then a few filters, then a regulator or two. Which mosquito on the AC
line was it that survives all that, again? I keep forgetting.

Which has nothing to do with the need for surge protection.

On Mar 3, 7:32*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"westom" wrote in message

...
On Mar 2, 1:09 pm, "Gary" wrote:

I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a
Siemens
and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole house
secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor.

On Mar 3, 3:08*pm, "Gary" wrote:
Is this the Cutler Hammer one?
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...ogSearchResult...

CHSPMAX is one type which may be the one sold in Lowes.

Other examples of 'whole house' protectors a
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html

Best time to plan for surge protection is just before pouring the
foundation. Ufer grounding makes even better earthing because it
provided both equipotential and better conductivity. If still under
contraction and before backfilling means a superior earth ground for
even less money.

Telephone line is installed with a 'whole house' protector - for
free. And it too is made better by connection to a better earth
ground. Cable needs no protector since protection is made by only a
wire, short, to that same earthing electrode.

Well, you can add those other protectors. It will marginally
increase protection. But better earthing often provides better return
on investment.

Voltages - if a protector is rated at 300 volts, that means it
actually operates at anywhere from maybe under 200 volts up to 1000
volts. Different surge currents result in that much voltage
variation. How to lower a maximum surge voltage? More joules.
Increased joules means longer life expectancy AND lower voltage (less
energy absorbed by the protector.

Whereas 1000 joules is minimally sufficient for AC mains, 2000
joules is often better for locations with more frequent surge
occurrences (ie central FL).

Most people need not go to this extent to make their protectors
better. But some example of what some do when surge damage is more
frequent:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg

On Mar 4, 6:26*am, wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:09:47 -0700, "Gary"
wrote:

I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. *It i

snip

Thx
Gary

Before you do anything with the wiring, please fix Outlook Express so
it word wraps around 70 characters. *Your message was one continuous
line of 282 characters.


No problems reading it here. Looks fine on google groups.

westom wrote:

Best time to plan for surge protection is just before pouring the
foundation. Ufer grounding makes even better earthing because it
provided both equipotential and better conductivity.

New construction, in general, is required to include a "concrete encased
electrode" which is commonly called a Ufer ground. It is a good
electrode, but does not provide equipotential.

Cable needs no protector since protection is made by only a
wire, short, to that same earthing electrode.

Doesn't need a protector? The IEEE guide says "there is no requirement
to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The
only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2–4
kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and
cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed,
especially from nearby lightning." (A plug-in suppressor will limit the
voltage from core to shield.)

Well, you can add those other protectors. It will marginally
increase protection. But better earthing often provides better return
on investment.

w has a fetish about earthing. Even with a very good 10 ohms-to-earth
resistance, a strong surge resulting in 1000A to earth will lift the
"ground" at the house 10,000V above "absolute" earth potential.

Francois Martzloff, who was the NIST guru on surges and wrote the NIST
guide, has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true
earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the
various parts of the grounding system." Meaning the phone and cable
entry protectors must connect with a short wire to the "ground" at the
power service. Much of the protection is that the power and phone and
cable wires all float up to the same 10,000V.

--
bud--

Gary wrote:
My bad. Here you go...

http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Products...guagecode= en

IMHO Siemens does not have particular good information on these
products. They are evaluated under different UL standards which makes
the specs difficult to compare. In particular, 175V is not comparable to
500V. Siemens gives no guidance on when you would use one over the other.

I would choose the QSA2020TVSS. It is a TVSS (transient voltage surge
suppressor). Most suppressors are TVSSs. [The term "TVSS" is being
replaced by "SPD" - surge protective device].

The QSA2020 is a "secondary surge arrester".

The warrantee on the QSA2020TVSS includes devices not included in for
the QSA2020.
(The text says "Hard wired appliances, including refrigerators,
freezers, ... washers, ... dryers, ...." none of which are normally hard
wired - probably a mistake.)


For comparing suppressors w correctly says that the energy (Joule)
rating indicates the life of the device. While that is quite true, both
guides warn that there is no standard for measuring the Joule rating,
and unless the same test method is used the specs are not comparable.
Because some manufacturers fudge the specs, some other very good
manufacturers, unfortunately, no longer provide Joule ratings.

=============================================
The Siemens site includes:
"combined use of quality protectors at the building entrance, and
appropriate plug-in protectors at the point of use can virtually
eliminate all damage from lightning and surges."

Yet another source that disputes poor w's crackpot ideas about plug-in
suppressors.

--
bud--

wrote in message

Google groups wraps it for you. Some other newsreaders might do so
too. Agent shows it like it is.

So since Agent sucks everyone should adjust their newsreaders.

The standard here is for the cribber to put a metal plate with a rod on it
(about 12" x 8" and about 3/8" thick under the basement footing with the rod
sticking out to connect the ground to. I have an electrical wiring book (I
wired the house myself) and the fellow in it says he always puts two (or
more) grounding points. He also said he tries to find moist ground. So
while I was trenching in my weeping tile and sump pit (my pit is 7' deep ) I
pushed a 10' electrode rod into the ground about 8" away from the sump pit
and tied the grounds together. I think this makes for good ground.


"westom" wrote in message
...
On Mar 3, 3:08 pm, "Gary" wrote:
Is this the Cutler Hammer one?
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...ogSearchResult...

CHSPMAX is one type which may be the one sold in Lowes.

Other examples of 'whole house' protectors a
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html

Best time to plan for surge protection is just before pouring the
foundation. Ufer grounding makes even better earthing because it
provided both equipotential and better conductivity. If still under
contraction and before backfilling means a superior earth ground for
even less money.

Telephone line is installed with a 'whole house' protector - for
free. And it too is made better by connection to a better earth
ground. Cable needs no protector since protection is made by only a
wire, short, to that same earthing electrode.

Well, you can add those other protectors. It will marginally
increase protection. But better earthing often provides better return
on investment.

Voltages - if a protector is rated at 300 volts, that means it
actually operates at anywhere from maybe under 200 volts up to 1000
volts. Different surge currents result in that much voltage
variation. How to lower a maximum surge voltage? More joules.
Increased joules means longer life expectancy AND lower voltage (less
energy absorbed by the protector.

Whereas 1000 joules is minimally sufficient for AC mains, 2000
joules is often better for locations with more frequent surge
occurrences (ie central FL).

Most people need not go to this extent to make their protectors
better. But some example of what some do when surge damage is more
frequent:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg

That is odd. I have Outlook not Outlook Express, but either way I can not
find a setting for word wrap. I have been posting with Outlook for probably
10 years and have never had anyone complain about my wordwrap.


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

wrote in message

Google groups wraps it for you. Some other newsreaders might do so
too. Agent shows it like it is.

So since Agent sucks everyone should adjust their newsreaders.

Gary wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
Google groups wraps it for you. Some other newsreaders might do so
too. Agent shows it like it is.
So since Agent sucks everyone should adjust their newsreaders.


That is odd. I have Outlook not Outlook Express, but either way I can not
find a setting for word wrap. I have been posting with Outlook for probably
10 years and have never had anyone complain about my wordwrap.



Gary, I would suggest reading this web page. It has
a good explanation of problems you may cause when
posting to Usenet.

http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

TDD

Electrical code wants a conductive ground. Things that make a
better conductor include moisture, finer soils, and more surface area
on the electrode, and a wider area of earth included in that electrode
'system'. For example, code requires rods to be separated by six feet
so that the surface area of one rod does not 'connect' to the same
earth used by the surface of another.

Earthing for surges involves both conductivity and equipotential.
An example of equipotenial. Lightning strikes a tree. Therefore a
nearby cow is electrocuted. Why? Cow is earthed by separated fore
and hind legs. Therefore the connection from cloud to earthborn
charges is through sky, through tree, into earth, up cow's hind legs,
down fore legs, and then through earth to those earthborne charges.

How to protect the cow? Convert earth beneath that cow into a
single point ground. Create equipotential. Surround the cow with a
buried loop so that earth beneath the cow is equipotential. Charges
that would have passed through the cow, instead, encircle the cow on
that buried loop. Now all earth beneath the cow is equipotential -
cow is unharmed.

Even though voltage beneath a cow might rise by thousands of volts,
no incoming and outgoing path exists. Therefore no surge current
exists. Therefore no harm.

People want to think of surge protection in terms of a magic box.
The protector is not protection. The protector is only as effective as
its earth ground. Therefore your telco (connected to overhead wires
all over town) suffers typically 100 surges during every thunderstorm
- and no damage. Why? Telcos routinely use Ufer grounds or something
equivalent to create even better equipotential.

We can never make the building sufficiently equipotential. So
earthing must be more conductive. But we can never make those
electrodes sufficiently conductive. So we also make better
equipotenial.

Having said this, more conductive electrodes that exceed 1990 Code
will be sufficient for most homes. However if we built homes
standard with Ufer grounds, a buried loop outside the foundation, or
even integrate basement floor concrete rebar into the earthing system,
then significantly improved earthing makes a minor increase in
protection. That minor increase is essential for any facility that
can never ever suffer surge damage.

Again, protection is about electrodes that are more conductive and
that provide equipotential.

Surge protection also is about a connection as short as possible
because wire is just not sufficently conductive. Whereas fifty feet
of wire from breaker box to an electrical receptacle is less than 0.2
ohms resistance; that same wire may be 120 ohms impedance to a surge.
Impedance is little changed by increasing wire diameter and mostly
decreased by making that wire shorter. Home earthing is typically
less than 10 feet. Sharp bends, bundled with other wires, or ground
wire inside a metallic conduit will also increase impedance - reduce
conductivity.

Polyphaser, an industry benchmark (the niave never heard of
Polyphaser and foolishly believe APC, Belkin, or Monster Cable are
good), makes a protector that has no earthing connection. Instead,
that protector mounts ON earth ground: zero foot earthing connection.

A ground wire up over the foundation and down to electrodes may be
adjacent to other non-ground wires, have sharp bends, and too long.
Better is to connect that ground wire through foundation and down to
earth. Shorter distance. Few or no sharp bends. Separated from
other wires. This also makes superior surge protection.

Some examples and suggestions to better understand the difference
between earthing for human safety (the Code) and earthing for surge
protection. That earthing electrode serves multiple purposes. Code
is mostly concerned with human safety. But earthing is best also
upgreaded for surge protection - transistor safety.

Install a surge protector to connect each surge to earth ground
without any damage to the protector. Joules measures life
expectancy. But only those joules used in a surge circuit to ground.
For example, a power strip protector may use only 1/3rd of its joules
and never more than 2/3rds. Yes, some will play games with that
joules number. But the only useful joules are those that actually
conduct a surge to earth. A ‘whole house’ protector typically uses
all joules: longer protector life expectancy.

On Mar 7, 1:14*am, "Gary" wrote:
The standard here is for the cribber to put a metal plate with a rod on it
(about 12" x 8" and about 3/8" thick under the basement footing with the rod
sticking out to connect the ground to. *I have an electrical wiring book (I
wired the house myself) and the fellow in it says he always puts two (or
more) grounding points. *He also said he tries to find moist ground. *So
while I was trenching in my weeping tile and sump pit (my pit is 7' deep ) I
pushed a 10' electrode rod into the ground about 8" away from the sump pit
and tied the grounds together. *I think this makes for good ground.

westom wrote:

People want to think of surge protection in terms of a magic box.
The protector is not protection. The protector is only as effective as
its earth ground.

It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

With minimal reading and thinking ability, poor w could read in the
IEEE guide how plug-in suppressors work. It is not primarily by
earthing. It is by clamping the voltage on all wires to the ground at
the suppressor.

Contrary to w's religious belief, both the IEEE and NIST guide say
plug-in suppressors are effective.

We can never make the building sufficiently equipotential. So
earthing must be more conductive. But we can never make those
electrodes sufficiently conductive. So we also make better
equipotenial.

Well isn't that clear.

Much of the surge protection is from power and phone and cable wires
being at the same potential, even if it is elevated far above "absolute"
ground potential by a surge. Martzloff has written that is more
important than further lowering the resistance to earth. It requires a
short wire from the phone and cable entry protectors to the "ground" at
the service panel.

Parts of a house in contact with the earth have about zero probability
of being "equipotential".

For example, a power strip protector may use only 1/3rd of its joules
and never more than 2/3rds. Yes, some will play games with that
joules number. But the only useful joules are those that actually
conduct a surge to earth. A ‘whole house’ protector typically uses
all joules: longer protector life expectancy.

For both a service panel suppressor and plug-in suppressors the Joules
that are "used" depends on the wires the surge hits on.

In the case of a plug-in suppressor, high energy ratings are readily
(and cheaply) available which make it very unlikely the suppressor will
ever fail. (Tests show the amount of energy from a surge that is
actually absorbed in a plug-in suppressor is surprisingly small.) That
is one reason why some manufacturers can provide protected equipment
warrantees. The service panel suppressors the OP was looking at had a 3
year warrantee that did not include any consumer electronics (which is
the most likely to be damaged).

--
bud--

On Mar 8, 1:17*pm, bud-- wrote:
It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, *w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

Bud again does what he does routinely. First, Bud follows me
everywhere to promote plug-in protectors. Eventually he then posts
insults. Bud is a salesman; a promoter for plug-in protectors. He
does not have design experience; literally witnessing direct strikes
without damage.

Bud repeatedly posts citations that contradict his claims. Quotes
from his NIST citation:
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest
a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

What does Bud's plug-in protector do? Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges. How does that tiny part inside a power strip
absorb or stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop? Bud refuses to
answer. Instead, Bud claims his protector clamps surges to nothing.
His magic box will make a surge disappear? Clamping to nothing will
dissipate surge energy? Of course not.

Why does every telco everywhere in the world not use Bud’s
protectors? They need protection that actually works and costs much
less money. An effective protector makes a short connection to
earth. Telcos use effective ‘whole house’ protectors. Even Bud's
NIST citation bluntly says that on page 17:
A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Protectors promoted by Bud have no dedicated earth ground. Somehow
it will magically dissipate surge energy? Worse, an adjacent
protector may even earth a surge destructively through adjacent
appliances. Just another reason why surges must be earthed before
entering a building. Just another reason why telcos don’t waste money
on power strip protectors.

From Southwest Bell's FAQ on Surge protection:
How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges? (#10431)
Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following
components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...
Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump
the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory
requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge
protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to
protect downstream equipment.
Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds
of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still
enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to
pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the
services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into
and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the
process. ...
Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together
there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of
the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional
paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from
seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic
equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground
system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from
damage. ...
By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best
protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the
service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges
which enter from the power company’s service entrance feed.

Should the reader learn reality, then profits are at risk. So Bud
1) follows me everywhere, 2) to post insults.

If honest, Bud would post a manufacturer numeric specs that claims
plug-in protector protection. Bud always refuses. No power strip
protector manufacturer claims to protect from the typically
destructive surge. No specs exist. An effective protector means
protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Earth one 'whole house' protector. Then energy from direct lightning
strikes is harmlessly dissipated in earth – as Southwest Bell and NIST
both state. A properly sized and properly earthed 'whole house'
protector means nobody even knows a surge existed.

Effective protection means even the protector is not harmed. Many
have seen damaged power strip protectors – no effective protection.
Effective 'whole house' protectors are sized to earth even direct
lightning strikes without damage. Numbers that say so posted
previously.

Detailed above is how even the US Air Force, Sun Microsystems,
munitions storage dumps, FCC, NASA, every telephone company,
commercial radio and TV stations ... how surge protection is installed
to not have damage. In every case, a protector makes a short
connection to single point earth ground; for both conductivity and
equipotential. An engineer knows this. A sales promoter will reply
with mockery and insults. He will continue posting until he has the
last word. He does this everywhere. Sales are at risk.

So where are those manufacturer spec numbers that Bud refuses to
provide?

So if the cow only had one leg it would be ok?

Some interesting stuff here.
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/s...171& t=696721

I bought the chspchsr4p from HomeDepot. Thanks to the poster who referred
me.
It is a 3 pack with the CHSPULTRA and a supressor for telephone and cable.
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgur...a%3DG%26um%3D1

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
westom wrote:

People want to think of surge protection in terms of a magic box.
The protector is not protection. The protector is only as effective as
its earth ground.

It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

With minimal reading and thinking ability, poor w could read in the IEEE
guide how plug-in suppressors work. It is not primarily by earthing. It is
by clamping the voltage on all wires to the ground at the suppressor.

Contrary to w's religious belief, both the IEEE and NIST guide say
plug-in suppressors are effective.

We can never make the building sufficiently equipotential. So
earthing must be more conductive. But we can never make those
electrodes sufficiently conductive. So we also make better
equipotenial.

Well isn't that clear.

Much of the surge protection is from power and phone and cable wires being
at the same potential, even if it is elevated far above "absolute" ground
potential by a surge. Martzloff has written that is more important than
further lowering the resistance to earth. It requires a short wire from
the phone and cable entry protectors to the "ground" at the service panel.

Parts of a house in contact with the earth have about zero probability of
being "equipotential".

For example, a power strip protector may use only 1/3rd of its joules
and never more than 2/3rds. Yes, some will play games with that
joules number. But the only useful joules are those that actually
conduct a surge to earth. A ‘whole house’ protector typically uses
all joules: longer protector life expectancy.

For both a service panel suppressor and plug-in suppressors the Joules
that are "used" depends on the wires the surge hits on.

In the case of a plug-in suppressor, high energy ratings are readily (and
cheaply) available which make it very unlikely the suppressor will ever
fail. (Tests show the amount of energy from a surge that is actually
absorbed in a plug-in suppressor is surprisingly small.) That is one
reason why some manufacturers can provide protected equipment warrantees.
The service panel suppressors the OP was looking at had a 3 year warrantee
that did not include any consumer electronics (which is the most likely to
be damaged).

--
bud--

I'm going to install my satellite dishes, and the instructions say to ground
the dish, get I have never seen a grounded dish. Do I need to ground my
dish?


"westom" wrote in message
...
On Mar 8, 1:17 pm, bud-- wrote:
It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

Bud again does what he does routinely. First, Bud follows me
everywhere to promote plug-in protectors. Eventually he then posts
insults. Bud is a salesman; a promoter for plug-in protectors. He
does not have design experience; literally witnessing direct strikes
without damage.

Bud repeatedly posts citations that contradict his claims. Quotes
from his NIST citation:
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest
a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

What does Bud's plug-in protector do? Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges. How does that tiny part inside a power strip
absorb or stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop? Bud refuses to
answer. Instead, Bud claims his protector clamps surges to nothing.
His magic box will make a surge disappear? Clamping to nothing will
dissipate surge energy? Of course not.

Why does every telco everywhere in the world not use Bud’s
protectors? They need protection that actually works and costs much
less money. An effective protector makes a short connection to
earth. Telcos use effective ‘whole house’ protectors. Even Bud's
NIST citation bluntly says that on page 17:
A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Protectors promoted by Bud have no dedicated earth ground. Somehow
it will magically dissipate surge energy? Worse, an adjacent
protector may even earth a surge destructively through adjacent
appliances. Just another reason why surges must be earthed before
entering a building. Just another reason why telcos don’t waste money
on power strip protectors.

From Southwest Bell's FAQ on Surge protection:
How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges? (#10431)
Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following
components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...
Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump
the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory
requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge
protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to
protect downstream equipment.
Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds
of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still
enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to
pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the
services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into
and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the
process. ...
Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together
there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all
of
the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional
paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from
seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic
equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground
system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from
damage. ...
By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best
protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the
service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against
surges
which enter from the power company’s service entrance feed.

Should the reader learn reality, then profits are at risk. So Bud
1) follows me everywhere, 2) to post insults.

If honest, Bud would post a manufacturer numeric specs that claims
plug-in protector protection. Bud always refuses. No power strip
protector manufacturer claims to protect from the typically
destructive surge. No specs exist. An effective protector means
protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Earth one 'whole house' protector. Then energy from direct lightning
strikes is harmlessly dissipated in earth – as Southwest Bell and NIST
both state. A properly sized and properly earthed 'whole house'
protector means nobody even knows a surge existed.

Effective protection means even the protector is not harmed. Many
have seen damaged power strip protectors – no effective protection.
Effective 'whole house' protectors are sized to earth even direct
lightning strikes without damage. Numbers that say so posted
previously.

Detailed above is how even the US Air Force, Sun Microsystems,
munitions storage dumps, FCC, NASA, every telephone company,
commercial radio and TV stations ... how surge protection is installed
to not have damage. In every case, a protector makes a short
connection to single point earth ground; for both conductivity and
equipotential. An engineer knows this. A sales promoter will reply
with mockery and insults. He will continue posting until he has the
last word. He does this everywhere. Sales are at risk.

So where are those manufacturer spec numbers that Bud refuses to
provide?

On Mar 9, 3:30*am, westom wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:17*pm, bud-- wrote:

It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, *w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

* Bud again does what he does routinely. *First, Bud follows me
everywhere to promote plug-in protectors. *Eventually he then posts
insults. *Bud is a salesman; a promoter for plug-in protectors. *He
does not have design experience; literally witnessing direct strikes
without damage.

* Bud repeatedly posts citations that contradict his claims. *Quotes
from his NIST citation:

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest
a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.


Nothing in the above contradicts anything that Bud has said.




* *What does Bud's plug-in protector do? *Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges. *How does that tiny part inside a power strip
absorb or stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop? *Bud refuses to
answer. *Instead, Bud claims his protector clamps surges to nothing.
His magic box will make a surge disappear? *Clamping to nothing will
dissipate surge energy? *Of course not.


Bud never said clamping dissipates surge energy.




*Why does every telco everywhere in the world not use Bud’s
protectors?


Maybe because the central office doesn't consist of equipment that is
plugged into AC outlets like you'd find in a home? And actually
the telcos do use a tiered approach to protection and do not just rely
on a single point of supression. In addition to protection on the
phone wires and AC entering the builiding, there is also surge
protection on the actual line cards contained in the switch, where the
phone wires terminate.



*They need protection that actually works and costs much
less money. *An effective protector makes a short connection to
earth. *Telcos use effective ‘whole house’ protectors. *Even Bud's
NIST citation bluntly says that on page 17:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. *The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

* Protectors promoted by Bud have no dedicated earth ground. *Somehow
it will magically dissipate surge energy? *Worse, an adjacent
protector may even earth a surge destructively through adjacent
appliances. *Just another reason why surges must be earthed before
entering a building. *Just another reason why telcos don’t waste money
on power strip protectors.


Which brings us to another glaring contradiction in your claims that
we've been through before with no answer. All appliances,
electronic gear, etc have surge protection built-in. They use MOVs,
the same components used in plug-in surge protectors, though
smaller. Last time I checked, these appliances and electronic gear
do not have a direct 10 ft connection to an earth ground. Yet, Tom
has told us many times how that protection inside the appliance is
effective. So, with no earth ground, how can that be?

One thing is for sure. I'd rather have the MOV inside a $20 plug-in
surge protector see any surge, rather than the one inside my $2000 TV.




* From Southwest Bell's FAQ on Surge protection:
* How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges? (#10431)
Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following
components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...
Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump
the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory
requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge
protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to
protect downstream equipment.
Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds
of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still
enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to
pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the
services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into
and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the
process. *...
Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together
there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of
the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional
paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from
seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic
equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground
system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from
damage. ...
By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best
protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the
service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges
which enter from the power company’s service entrance feed.


Since you want to use Southwestern Bell as a reference, let's look at
the whole picture. First, SB clearly says that a whole house primary
surge protector will provide a solid FIRST LINE of defense against
surges. Clearly that does not contradict the NIST, IEEE, etc, who
Bud has frequently cited. The NIST, IEEE, etc show whole house surge
protectors used in COMBINATION with plug-in surge protectors.

What Southwestern Bell says, is very different from Tom's claim that
plug-in surge protectors do not work and actually cause damage. In
fact, Southwestern Bell sells plug-in surge protectors:

http://www.amazon.com/Southwestern-B.../dp/B0002471TC
Southwestern Bell S60860 Travel Telephone Surge Protector


That's right. They actually sell them. And also, the vast majority
of companies that manufacture and sell whole house surge protectors
also sell plug-in protectors too and discuss how to use them as part
of an overall protection strategy. These are the very same
companies that you regularly cite as authorities on surge protection,
but clearly they don't agree with you.




* Should the reader learn reality, then profits are at risk. *So Bud
1) follows me everywhere, 2) to post insults.


Bud may follow you, but it seems you are the one that scours the
internet to find anything to do with surges and then renews this same
thread, without adding anything new. I take that back. This time you
did add the Southwestern Bell citation which not only doesn't say what
you claim it does, but SB actually sells plug-in surge protectors.
And in all these threads, I don't think I've yet seen one person in
any of them that agrees with you that plug-in surge protectors are
useless and actually cause damage.

:

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest
a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

* *What does Bud's plug-in protector do? *Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges. *How does that tiny part inside a power strip
absorb or stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop? *Bud refuses to
answer. *Instead, Bud claims his protector clamps surges to nothing.
His magic box will make a surge disappear? *Clamping to nothing will
dissipate surge energy? *Of course not.



Westcom,

You are oversimplifing. true Earth ground is a good idea in many
cases but you don't NEED TO HAVE a true Earth ground to provide surge
protection... there are other ways to do it...

You do know that they have lightning surge protection on electronics
in airplanes.

Mark

On Mar 9, 2:03 am, "Gary" wrote:
I'm going to install my satellite dishes, and the instructions say to ground
the dish, get I have never seen a grounded dish. Do I need to ground my
dish?

Go to your local hardware store and buy an 8 ft copper-clad ground
rod. Drive it into the ground. Attach a copper ground wire to the
mounting frame of the dish.

westom wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:17 pm, bud-- wrote:
It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

Bud again does what he does routinely.

w again does what he does routinely - troll google groups for "surge"
to post his religious dogma about suppressors.

First, Bud follows me
everywhere to promote plug-in protectors.

I promote only accurate information to counter w's religious dogma.
And I am a regular participant in this newsgroup

Eventually he then posts
insults.

Poor w is insulted by reality.

Bud is a salesman; a promoter for plug-in protectors.

To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some.

But if poor w had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to try to
discredit others..

Bud repeatedly posts citations that contradict his claims. Quotes
from his NIST citation:

What does the NIST guide really say about plug-in suppressors?
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport
plug-in suppressor

What does Bud's plug-in protector do? Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges.

Because of his religious blinders the village idiot can't read in the
IEEE guide how plug-in suppressors work - clamping the voltage on all
wires to the common ground at the suppressor. They don't work by
stopping or absorbing. Or magic.

Why does every telco everywhere in the world not use Bud’s
protectors?

In addition to trader's answer, thousands of telephone lines would have
to connect through the plug-in suppressor.

Protectors promoted by Bud have no dedicated earth ground. Somehow
it will magically dissipate surge energy?

I promote only accurate information.
And it is only magic for the village idiot. Others can read the
explanation in the IEEE guide.

From Southwest Bell's FAQ on Surge protection:

Answered nicely by trader.

If honest, Bud would post a manufacturer numeric specs that claims
plug-in protector protection. Bud always refuses.

The lie repeated - specs have been posted often and ignored by the
village idiot . For instance over a year ago in this newsgroup.
http://tinyurl.com/6alnza

Earth one 'whole house' protector.

Repeating:
Service panel suppressors are certainly a good idea.
But from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."

Service panel suppressors do not prevent high voltages from developing
between power and signal wires.

He will continue posting until he has the
last word.

w will continue posting until he has the last word. His religious
belief in earthing has been challenged and cracks are developing in his
universe.


For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

There are 98,615,938 other web sites, including 13,843,032 by lunatics,
and w can't find another lunatic that agrees with him that plug-in
suppressors are NOT effective. All you have is w's opinions based on
his religious belief in earthing.

And w never answers simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?

Plus questions from previous threads he
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device?
- Why does “responsible” manufacturer SquareD says "electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in
[suppressors] at the point of use"?

--
bud--

Gary wrote:
I'm going to install my satellite dishes, and the instructions say to ground
the dish, get I have never seen a grounded dish. Do I need to ground my
dish?

Metal dishes and supports must be bonded to the same grounding system as
the power system (if the US-NEC is enforced). The length of the ground
wire is not as important as for cable and phone entry because you don't
have high surge currents (unless you have a direct strike to the dish,
which would require much better protection).

--
bud--

On Mar 9, 9:20 am, wrote:
Maybe because the central office doesn't consist of equipment that is
plugged into AC outlets like you'd find in a home? And actually
the telcos do use a tiered approach to protection and do not just rely
on a single point of supression.

COs use layers of protection. But not as you have described. Each
layer is defined by the only thing that makes each layer effective -
the single point ground. COs layer protection by grounding.
Curious. Homeowners also layer protection. Above only discussed the
secondary protection system - a 'whole house' protector and the
building's single point earthing. Primary protection layer also
should be inspected:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

What do telco COs do for layered protection? Careful earthing - and
no plug-in protectors.

Bud claims power strip protectors clamp to nothing. He did not yet
say it. But he has repeated it incestuously. As a sales promoter, he
must. Power strip protectors have no earth ground. Do not define
surge protection (see manufacturer spec numbers that Bud always
forgets to post). And can only protect by magically stopping and
absorbing surge energy. Protection made irrelevant by protection
already inside every appliance.

You again misrepresent what I said. I did not say power strips do
not work. You would know that if comprehending provided facts and
numbers. You *assumed* based upon what you understood. I said they
are not effective. They are for a type of surge that does not
typically cause appliance damage. And yes, if you so believe their
myths, I too will sell you surge protectors that protect from
typically nondestructive surges. Does a sale mean that protector is
effective - as you have *assumed*? Hardly. I too would sell you that
ineffective $0.50 protector for $5. And also cannot provide numeric
specs for protection.

Those who sell effective protection demand essential earthing.
What you deny (subjectively and without facts) from SouthWest Bell:
Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to
dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a
mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper
ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess
energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

Many electricians are trained only in human safety; as defined by
code. Concepts essential to transistor safety (ie low impedance) are
unknown. Many electricians naively assume impedance means a thicker
wire. Low impedance means a shorter wire, no sharp bends, etc.
Insufficient knowledge explains why some electricians *assume* all
surges are same.

Since you know better, then list those different types of surges.
Define how each is protected from. Instead, you have *assumed* all
surges are same type. Either *assumed* a power strip somehow stops
and absorbs surges, or makes surges magically disappear. Show us how
a protector stops what three miles of sky could not. Why do you never
do that?

Why repeat same subjective attacks? Show us how Southwest Bell did
not say, "Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a
path to dump the excess energy to earth." Some electricians have
learned concepts beyond code; know that each layer of surge protection
is defined by its ground – not by protectors.

As the IEEE notes, proper earthing is not 100% effective. I said
same. Now apply some numbers from an IEEE standard:
... providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ... a 99.5% protection
level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke
per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

Install one 'whole house' protector for only 99.5% protection - for
about $1 per protected appliance. Then install maybe 100 power strip
protectors for another 0.2% protection at somewhere between $10 and
$150 per appliance. Show me how those power strips are effective -
especially at those prices? Nothing subjective. These are numbers
from IEEE and retail stores. Show me your numbers.

Obvious is your zero design experience. All appliances contain
surge protection as defined by industry standards. Without basic
design knowledge, you have automatically *assumed* that protection
always means MOVs. Instead, learn from industry standards including
the now obsolete CBEMA charts. Or Intel ATX spec that defined what
all computer power supplies must withstand without damage. If
appliances did not have protection, then you are trooping daily to
stores replacing dimmer switches, clock radios, and TVs. All
appliances contain surge protection integrated in its design. It is
required. Only the naive would look for protection in terms of MOVs
(or GDTs, etc). But again, your attack was subjective – ignored
generations of electrical standards and practice.

Effective surge protection means a typically destructive type of
surge is earthed so that protection inside all appliances is not
overwhelmed. What does the power strip protector claim to protection
from? A type of surge that typically does not overwhelm internal
appliance protection (for tens or 100 times more money). You
misrepresent me probably because protection concepts are not taught to
or required for electricians. Probably because you never understood
the underlying technology - so you *assumed*.

Even GE contradicts your assumptions in their white paper:
In conclusion, ... This was accomplished because the TVSS is connected
in parallel to the load, thus provided a low impedance path to ground for
the transient surge. Applying Ohm’s Law, the lower the impedance to
ground during a transient surge, the lower the resultant transient voltage
developed over the total circuit impedance and earth ground.

Or a ham radio operator (K9KJM):
Those old wives tales of damage are for the most part over 50 year
old tales of woe from improperly grounded/ protected stations.

Electrical Engineering Times published two front page articles
entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning
Transients". Where were power strip protectors discussed?
Nowhere. Instead, the articles discussed protection: ie single point
grounding, wire impedance, and "Providing a flow path for the
lightning current is central to effective lightning protection."

How does a power strip that would stop and absorb lightning somehow
provide a flow path? Show me the numbers. Explain these impedances?

A TV station engineer who made surges irrelevant in Florida:
The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple,
and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a
single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And
you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy to go.

Or Keison in a discussion of the British standard for surge
protection BS6551:
When the voltage rises above a certain level components inside
the protector divert the excess energy to earth and limit the
voltage to a safe level.

It appears only one of us is posting with extensive experience and
knowledge from numerous professionals. You posted subject accusations
- and still not one single manufacturer spec from a power strip
protector. Where is that spec?

Even telco COs have equipment plugged into electrical receptacles.
What protects that equipment? Not power strip protectors. Telcos
don't waste money. Telco install protectors that start at 99.5%
protection. Telcos take special care in installing what provides surge
protection - earthing. To make that 99.5% number even better, telcos
use no power strip protectors.

Who do we believe? Subject claims from an electrician or MIL-
HDBK-419A Military Handbook Grounding, Bonding, and Shielding for
Electronic Equipments and Facilities:
1.3.3.5.12 Surge Arrester Installation.
Proper installation of the surge arrester is of vital importance for optimum
operation. A surge arrester with excellent operating characteristics cannot
function properly if correct installation procedures are not used. The most
important installation criteria are provided below and applies to surge
arrester phase input connections and the ground connection. All surge
arresters should be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations.
a. Installation criteria.
(1) If possible, install arresters inside the first service disconnect box to
keep interconnecting lead lengths as short as feasible.
2) Use interconnecting wire of sufficient size to limit ... inductance path
to ground through the surge arrester.
(3) Interconnecting wiring should be routed as straight and direct as
possible with and the least number of bends possible. ...
(5) Must be grounded by the shortest low impedance path available.

Where does a power strip protector do any of this? Where is that
plug-in protector spec that even claims protection? Where is the
electrician who demonstrates knowledge without subjective accusations?

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

From lightningsafety.com:
3. Bonding
Without proper bonding, all other elements of the LPs are useless.
Bonding of all metallic conductors in a dispatch facility assures
everything is at equal potential. When lightning strikes, all grounded
equipment will rise and fall equipotentially. ... Bonding should
connect all conductors to the same "Mother Earth."

Equipotenial? Connecting to earth (ie via 'whole house'
protectors)? Which one does the Lightning Safety Institute agree
with? One who accuses subjectively or the one who makes
recommendations with facts and numbers? So where is that power strip
spec number that defines protection? Why can you (and Bud) not
provide it? One here routinely shares his knowledge and experience on
a subject that even electricians often know little about.
Unfortunately the same few accuse subjectively or post insults.

Little grasp of the concepts caused *assuming*. I said power strip
protectors do not work only if you did not understand the concepts. A
protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

On Mar 9, 4:00*am, "Gary" wrote:
So if the cow only had one leg it would be ok?

Or the cow did what humans are also told to do. Stand with all legs
in one spot. Unfortunately, cow just don't listen to good advise.

On Mar 9, 10:32*am, wrote:
You are oversimplifing. *true Earth ground is a good idea in many
cases but you don't NEED TO HAVE a true Earth ground to provide surge
protection... *there are other ways to do it...

So show me where that surge energy gets dissipated? A surge
protector does not magically stop or absorb surges. Show me where
energy get dissipated if not in earth? There is no way around
earthing for protection (as maybe ten professional citations state in
another post). But since you know a 100 years of industry
professionals are wrong, then tell us where that energy gets
dissipated? Show us how your protector design does it better.

You made the claim. Now let's see the science on how it is done.

On Mar 9, 4:03*am, "Gary" wrote:
I'm going to install my satellite dishes, and the instructions say to ground
the dish, get I have never seen a grounded dish. *Do I need to ground my
dish?

Code requires earthing an antenna (dish) and also earthing the
antenna lead where it enters a building. For surge protection, a dish
is earthed to withstand direct lightning strikes (without damage).
Cable is earthed to the single point earth ground (also used by AC
electric and phone) so that destructive surge currents need not enter
that building.

Of course, code is written for human safety. But the same earthing
performed for human safety is also more carefully installed to provide
transistor safety.

Correct, many dish installers do not properly earth the dish. But
code requires that earthing for human safety.

westom wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:20 am, wrote:
Maybe because the central office doesn't consist of equipment that is
plugged into AC outlets like you'd find in a home? And actually
the telcos do use a tiered approach to protection and do not just rely
on a single point of supression.

Bud claims power strip protectors clamp to nothing. He did not yet
say it.

I have never said it - it is poor w's sound bite, used because he can't
figure out how plug-in suppressors work.

I repeat what the IEEE and NIST guides say. Both say plug-in suppressors
are effective.

(see manufacturer spec numbers that Bud always
forgets to post).

The lie repeated. Specs were in a previous post (and many previous threads).

And can only protect by magically stopping and
absorbing surge energy.

The village idiot refuses to understand the explanation given in the
IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.

You again misrepresent what I said. I did not say power strips do
not work.

"A protector is only as effective as its earth ground."
"No earth ground means no effective protection."

Since you know better, then list those different types of surges.
Define how each is protected from.

One of w's favorite manufacturers, SquareD, does not "list those
different types of surges". (I don't know if any of them do.) That is
because "those different types of surges" is nonsense. Plug-in
suppressors protect from all surge modes.

And w has never explained how common mode surges (hot and neutral lift
from earth) get past the neutral-ground-earth bond required in all US
services.

Either *assumed* a power strip somehow stops
and absorbs surges, or makes surges magically disappear. Show us how
a protector stops what three miles of sky could not. Why do you never
do that?

The village idiot refuses to understand the explanation given in the
IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.

Install one 'whole house' protector for only 99.5% protection

As Martzloff explains, service panel suppressors do not limit the
voltage between power and phone/cable wires. Martzloff suggests that is
the main cause of equipment damage.

But service panel suppressors are a good idea.

The suppressor the OP chose includes protection for cable and phone
wires and covers almost all sources of surge damage. (This is the type
suggested by Tom Horne in a recent thread.)

All appliances contain
surge protection as defined by industry standards.

Never seen - what "industry standards" require "all appliances" to
"contain surge protection"?

Or Keison in a discussion of the British standard for surge
protection BS6551:

Keison is yet another manufacturer that recommends using plug-in suppressors

It appears only one of us is posting with extensive experience and
knowledge from numerous professionals.

That would be trader and me.

We rely on the IEEE, NIST, many of w's favorite manufacturers, and
other sources, all of which say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Compare that to w's sources that say plug-in suppressors are NOT
effective - there are none.

You posted subject accusations
- and still not one single manufacturer spec from a power strip
protector. Where is that spec?

Ho-hum - the lie repeated. Specs were in a previous post (and many
previous threads).

Who do we believe? Subject claims from an electrician

Apparently w thinks trader is an electrician. I don't think so. But he
is an electrical engineer.

In addition to being a master electrician I am also an electrical engineer.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

The required statement of religious belief in earthing. The question is
not earthing - everyone is for it. The question is whether plug-in
suppressors are effective.

Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with w that plug-in
suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:
- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge
protection"?
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device?
- Why does “responsible” manufacturer SquareD says "electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in
[suppressors] at the point of use"?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

westom wrote:
On Mar 9, 10:32 am, wrote:
You are oversimplifing. true Earth ground is a good idea in many
cases but you don't NEED TO HAVE a true Earth ground to provide surge
protection... there are other ways to do it...

So show me where that surge energy gets dissipated? A surge
protector does not magically stop or absorb surges. Show me where
energy get dissipated if not in earth? There is no way around
earthing for protection (as maybe ten professional citations state in
another post). But since you know a 100 years of industry
professionals are wrong, then tell us where that energy gets
dissipated? Show us how your protector design does it better.

You made the claim. Now let's see the science on how it is done.

For instance you could build a metal shed in the back yard completely
insulated from the earth (maybe on a 4 foot high pile of glass bottles).
The power service panel has a surge suppressor. Phone and cable entry
protectors have short wire to the power "ground". There would have to be
a suppressor from cable center conductor to "ground", or plug-in
suppressors. The shed "ground" is not earthed at all. Everything inside
is protected with no earthing at the shed. (The service panel suppressor
has lower surge currents than if it was earthed, thus lower energy
absorption.)

There are always multiple paths to earth, many provided by the
utilities. Poor w doesn't seem to be able to figure out multiple earth
paths.

The shed is not practical. But just like in the shed, much of the
protection in a house is from having all wires - power and phone and
cable - at the same potential. If a house has a higher resistance to
earth it means the interior wires may float to a higher voltage above
"absolute" earth potential. Even with a relatively good earth
connection, the interior wires can be thousands of volts above the earth
potential in parts of a concrete basement.


w forgot to include part of Mark’s post:
"You do know that they have lightning surge protection on electronics in
airplanes."
w has never explained how you can protect an airplane when there is no
earth ground - "no earth ground means no effective protection".

--
bud--

On Mar 10, 5:29 am, westom wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:20 am, wrote:

Maybe because the central office doesn't consist of equipment that is
plugged into AC outlets like you'd find in a home? And actually
the telcos do use a tiered approach to protection and do not just rely
on a single point of supression.

COs use layers of protection. But not as you have described. Each
layer is defined by the only thing that makes each layer effective -
the single point ground. COs layer protection by grounding.


Once again, you're out in left field, in your own little world. I
spent 16 years working for a giant in the semiconductor industry and
calling on what originally was Bell Labs/AT&T. Later it became
Lucent. Along the way, I was involved with the sales and support of
tens of millions of CODECS. Those are the components that do the
analog to digital conversion. They sit on the line cards in the
central office switch, SLC, etc where the telephone lines from your
home or office terminate. I've held the line cards in my hands that
went into 5ESS switches, SLCs, etc. And I can tell you, they have
surge protection on the line card and that surge protection is not
connected to an earth ground with your 10ft wire.

But, you don't have to believe me. As usual, it's easy to refute
your claims with some simple links. Let's take a look at a datasheet
from National Semiconductor for their Subscriber Line Interface
Module:

http://www.national.com/ms/SB/SB-100.pdf

KEY FEATURES OF THE TP3210, TP3211, TP3212 SLIM
SUBSCRIBER LINE INTERFACE MODULE

# Complete CODEC/Filter and SLIC functions plus protection
# Requires only simple protection network and 4 resistors
externally
# Very small 1× by 2× package supports high density line
card and system
# Superb power surge and lightning protection
# Withstands 500V Return to Ground surge
# Power Denial mode
# Thermal overload protection
# Automatic Ring Trip
# Four Selectable Balance Networks
# Three positive relay drivers
# TP3210 SLIM meets all Bellcore and REA specifications
for USA Central Office
# TP3211 SLIM meets all CCITT requirements for 600X
Central Office applications
# TP3212 meets TR-TSY-00057 specification for DLC
POTS lines


Pay attention to the part where it says it provides surge protection
and meets the Bellcore specs for central offices. Now, are you going
to claim that all these line cards in a CO switch with 10,000 lines
are connected to an earth ground by a 10 ft wire?





Curious. Homeowners also layer protection. Above only discussed the
secondary protection system - a 'whole house' protector and the
building's single point earthing. Primary protection layer also
should be inspected:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

What do telco COs do for layered protection? Careful earthing - and
no plug-in protectors.

Bud claims power strip protectors clamp to nothing.


Sounds like you don't understand the definition of clamping.




He did not yet
say it. But he has repeated it incestuously. As a sales promoter, he
must. Power strip protectors have no earth ground. Do not define
surge protection (see manufacturer spec numbers that Bud always
forgets to post). And can only protect by magically stopping and
absorbing surge energy. Protection made irrelevant by protection
already inside every appliance.

And here we go again. Bringing up the protection inside appliances,
which is one of the best arguments AGAINST your claims. That's
because they typically use MOVs, similar to the MOVs used in plug-in
protectors and they work exactly the same way. Unless these
appliances come with a mythical earth ground inside, then they operate
and protect under the same limitations that a plug-in protector has.





You again misrepresent what I said. I did not say power strips do
not work. You would know that if comprehending provided facts and
numbers. You *assumed* based upon what you understood. I said they
are not effective.

Everyone that has been following your rants for years knows what
you've said. So, let's not start Clintonesque word games, OK? I
can take you back to posts where you not only said they don't work,
but that they CAUSE damage.






What you deny (subjectively and without facts) from SouthWest Bell:

I provided you with the link where SB actually sells plug-in surge
protectors. Enough said.






Many electricians are trained only in human safety; as defined by
code. Concepts essential to transistor safety (ie low impedance) are
unknown. Many electricians naively assume impedance means a thicker
wire. Low impedance means a shorter wire, no sharp bends, etc.
Insufficient knowledge explains why some electricians *assume* all
surges are same.

Last time I checked impedance of a wire is a function of both length
and thickness. So, who's naive?






Since you know better, then list those different types of surges.
Define how each is protected from. Instead, you have *assumed* all
surges are same type. Either *assumed* a power strip somehow stops
and absorbs surges, or makes surges magically disappear. Show us how
a protector stops what three miles of sky could not. Why do you never
do that?

Why repeat same subjective attacks? Show us how Southwest Bell did
not say, "Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a
path to dump the excess energy to earth." Some electricians have
learned concepts beyond code; know that each layer of surge protection
is defined by its ground – not by protectors.

Take it up with Southwest Bell. Ask them how it is that they sell
plug-in surge protectors. Also take it up with the IEEE and NIST, as
they both talk about and show using plug-in surge protectors.




As the IEEE notes, proper earthing is not 100% effective. I said
same. Now apply some numbers from an IEEE standard:

... providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ... a 99.5% protection
level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke
per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

Install one 'whole house' protector for only 99.5% protection - for
about $1 per protected appliance. Then install maybe 100 power strip
protectors for another 0.2% protection at somewhere between $10 and
$150 per appliance. Show me how those power strips are effective -
especially at those prices? Nothing subjective. These are numbers
from IEEE and retail stores. Show me your numbers.

We showed you the IEEE and NIST positions. Both show plug-ins being
used as part of a surge protection plan. They clearly don't say just
put in a whole house protector and forget about it.




Obvious is your zero design experience. All appliances contain
surge protection as defined by industry standards. Without basic
design knowledge, you have automatically *assumed* that protection
always means MOVs.

Didn't say it always used MOVs. But that is typically what is used.
Looked in any appliances or electronic gear lately?


Instead, learn from industry standards including
the now obsolete CBEMA charts. Or Intel ATX spec that defined what
all computer power supplies must withstand without damage. If
appliances did not have protection, then you are trooping daily to
stores replacing dimmer switches, clock radios, and TVs. All
appliances contain surge protection integrated in its design. It is
required. Only the naive would look for protection in terms of MOVs
(or GDTs, etc). But again, your attack was subjective – ignored
generations of electrical standards and practice.

I guess then Appliance Design magazine must be naive. Here, from a
recent issue:

"Power: Combined Protection (March 2008)
by Philippe Di Fulvio
March 1, 2008


ARTICLE TOOLSEmailPrintReprintsShare

New device helps guard against over-current, over-voltage, and over-
temperature events.

Metal Oxide Varistors (MOVs) are typically used for transient over-
voltage suppression in AC line voltage applications. Lightning,
inductive load switching, or capacitor bank switching may cause
transient over-voltage conditions. In these applications, there also
exists the potential for a sustained abnormal over-voltage/limited-
current condition that may cause the MOV to go into thermal runaway,
resulting in overheating, out-gassing and possibly fire.

New thermally enhanced MOVs help protect a wide variety of low-power
systems against damage caused by over-current, over-temperature and
over-voltage faults, including lightning strikes, electrostatic
discharge (ESD) surges, loss of neutral, incorrect input voltage and
power induction.

These devices help provide protection in a wide range of AC line
applications, including AC mains LED lighting systems, PLC network
adapters, cell-phone chargers, AC/DC power supplies (up to 30 VA as
input power for 230 VAC input voltage), modem power supplies, AC panel
protection modules, AC power meters, and home appliances.

The thermally enhanced MOV is suitable for over-current and over-
voltage protection in a wide range of telephony and VoIP equipment
applications. These include cordless phones, VoIP gateways, data
modems, set-top boxes, security systems, MDF (Main Distribution Frame)
modules, analog linecards and ISDN (Integrated Services Digital
Network) linecards.

The widespread adaptation of VoIP gateways in homes and enterprise
environments has resulted in increasingly stringent safety
requirements for Customer Premise Equipment. The 2Pro device helps
equipment manufacturers comply with UL 60950 and remain operational
after specified lightning tests. It also helps equipment comply with
surge tests per TIA-968-A, IEC 60950, and ITU-T K.20/K.21. The UL 497A
listed protector also helps provide ESD protection. "


Or since you dragged PC power supplies into the discussion again,
let's look at a schematic for a typical ATX 200W unit:

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

Right there on the incoming AC line is component Z1:

"Varistors Z1 and Z2 have overvoltage protect function on the line
input."


That's right, varistor, as in Metal Oxide Varistor, MOV

So, who's naive and wrong now?

And the issue of what specifically is used in an appliance or PC power
supply is a moot point. Because what you can't avoid is that whatever
is used to provide protection, it operates without a direct 10ft
connection to earth ground. In other words, it operates with the
same limitations as a plug-in would have, yet you say it is effective,
but plug-ins are not. An inescapable contradiction.






Effective surge protection means a typically destructive type of
surge is earthed so that protection inside all appliances is not
overwhelmed. What does the power strip protector claim to protection
from? A type of surge that typically does not overwhelm internal
appliance protection (for tens or 100 times more money). You
misrepresent me probably because protection concepts are not taught to
or required for electricians
Probably because you never understood
the underlying technology - so you *assumed*.


Talk about assuming. You've assumed that I'm an electrician, which is
incorrect






Even GE contradicts your assumptions in their white paper:

In conclusion, ... This was accomplished because the TVSS is connected
in parallel to the load, thus provided a low impedance path to ground for
the transient surge. Applying Ohm’s Law, the lower the impedance to
ground during a transient surge, the lower the resultant transient voltage
developed over the total circuit impedance and earth ground.

Or a ham radio operator (K9KJM):

Those old wives tales of damage are for the most part over 50 year
old tales of woe from improperly grounded/ protected stations.

Electrical Engineering Times published two front page articles
entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning
Transients". Where were power strip protectors discussed?
Nowhere. Instead, the articles discussed protection: ie single point
grounding, wire impedance, and "Providing a flow path for the
lightning current is central to effective lightning protection."

How does a power strip that would stop and absorb lightning somehow
provide a flow path? Show me the numbers. Explain these impedances?

A TV station engineer who made surges irrelevant in Florida:

The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple,
and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a
single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And
you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy to go.

Or Keison in a discussion of the British standard for surge
protection BS6551:

When the voltage rises above a certain level components inside
the protector divert the excess energy to earth and limit the
voltage to a safe level.

It appears only one of us is posting with extensive experience and
knowledge from numerous professionals.

I guess in your world, the IEEE and NIST, both of which show plug-ins
being used, don't count as having experience or being professional.
Regarding all your excerpts above, which cover some aspects of surge
protection, kindly provide the reference that says plug-in surge
protectors do not work and cause damage. How is it that in all the
internet you can't come up with a single reference that just directly
says what you claim?

The basic problem here is that you are stuck on one aspect of surge
protection and can't or won't realize that there are different ways to
deal with surge protection, especially in a tiered approach. I
think that was very nicely demonstrated a few posts back by the fellow
who asked you if you realize there is surge protection in aircraft.
Have you seen any airplanes tethered by a 10 ft wire to earth
ground? Yet, obviously they are protected from surges due to
lightning strikes.

On Mar 10, 5:34*am, westom wrote:
On Mar 9, 10:32*am, wrote:

You are oversimplifing. *true Earth ground is a good idea in many
cases but you don't NEED TO HAVE a true Earth ground to provide surge
protection... *there are other ways to do it...

* So show me where that surge energy gets dissipated? *A surge
protector does not magically stop or absorb surges. *Show me where
energy get dissipated if not in earth? *There is no way around
earthing for protection (as maybe ten professional citations state in
another post). *But since you know a 100 years of industry
professionals are wrong, then tell us where that energy gets
dissipated? *Show us how your protector design does it better.

* You made the claim. *Now let's see the science on how it is done.

Let me take the liberty of responding to your question about Mark's
excellent point. In a single word: Clamping

On Mar 10, 5:30*am, westom wrote:
On Mar 9, 4:00*am, "Gary" wrote:

So if the cow only had one leg it would be ok?

* Or the cow did what humans are also told to do. *Stand with all legs
in one spot. * Unfortunately, cow just don't listen to good advise.

Now that's pretty funny. The solution to not getting killed by
lightning is to stand with both legs in one spot? How far apart are
your feet when you're standing to begin with? Geeez

"westom" wrote in message
...
On Mar 9, 4:03 am, "Gary" wrote:
I'm going to install my satellite dishes, and the instructions say to
ground
the dish, get I have never seen a grounded dish. Do I need to ground my
dish?

Code requires earthing an antenna (dish) and also earthing the
antenna lead where it enters a building. For surge protection, a dish
is earthed to withstand direct lightning strikes (without damage).
Cable is earthed to the single point earth ground (also used by AC
electric and phone) so that destructive surge currents need not enter
that building.

Of course, code is written for human safety. But the same earthing
performed for human safety is also more carefully installed to provide
transistor safety.

Correct, many dish installers do not properly earth the dish. But
code requires that earthing for human safety.

Thankyou, I will do that. I am mounting them in the "A" on the side of my
house opposite my attic. My attic has lights in it. Can I just run a wire
to bond to one of the metal electrical boxes? Is it code to run a ground
wire directly into the electrical box to tie the sats and coax bonding to?

On Mar 10, 3:29*pm, "Gary" wrote:
"westom" wrote in message

...
On Mar 9, 4:03 am, "Gary" wrote:

I'm going to install my satellite dishes, and the instructions say to
ground
the dish, get I have never seen a grounded dish. Do I need to ground my
dish?

* Code requires earthing an antenna (dish) and also earthing the
antenna lead where it enters a building. *For surge protection, a dish
is earthed to withstand direct lightning strikes (without damage).
Cable is earthed to the single point earth ground (also used by AC
electric and phone) so that destructive surge currents need not enter
that building.

* Of course, code is written for human safety. *But the same earthing
performed for human safety is also more carefully installed to provide
transistor safety.

* Correct, many dish installers do not properly earth the dish. *But
code requires that earthing for human safety.

Thankyou, I will do that. *I am mounting them in the "A" on the side of my
house opposite my attic. *My attic has lights in it. *Can I just run a wire
to bond to one of the metal electrical boxes? *Is it code to run a ground
wire directly into the electrical box to tie the sats and coax bonding to?


No. The DISH and the cable grounding block should be directly tied
to the central building ground. If the antenna is located close to
the electric service entrance, that should be easy to do.

There should be installation instructions that came with the dish that
discuss correct installation. Or you can find the direction from the
manufacturer online.

On Mar 10, 1:16*pm, bud-- wrote:
w *forgot to include part of Mark’s post:
"You do know that they have lightning surge protection on electronics in
airplanes."

Another problem that a sales promoter hopes you avoid - scary
pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm

Most every fire department has seen this danger. An ineffective
protector attempting to stop and absorb a serious surge. Damage also
gets the naive to promote more ineffective power strips. A fire
marshal even states why that hazard exists. Read it.

Bud is paid to promote power strip protectors. Bud must turn this
discussion long and nasty so that you ignore well proven and less
expensive solutions - earthing one 'whole house' protector. Even
discuss airplanes which he knows is completely different and
irrelevant. Anything to avoid reality such as those scary pictures of
protectors he is paid to promote.

A GE white paper also explains how power strip protectors create
fires as demonstrated by the above 2007 Boston apartment fi
For example, designs that include a combination of current limiting
fuses and thermal cutoffs rely on the current limiting fuses to
interrupt high fault currents and the thermal cutoffs to interrupt low
fault currents by opening as a result of radiant heat emitted from
the body of the failing MOV. ... Thermal cutoffs are only good for
limited levels of available current and can only react if the MOV
can radiate enough heat directly at the cutoff during the thermal
runaway cycle. ... In most cases, this happens much too fast for
even the closest proximity thermal cutoffs to react. And once the
MOV has shorted, the initial energy release from the MOV will be
concentrated at the location on the MOV surface where the short
has originated. After this sequence occurs, the thermal cutoffs
become ineffective. ... the SPD could remain in a low resistive
state with an unstable MOV that continues to emit intense energy
in the form of flame, molten material, smoke, etc.

See those scary pictures to appreciate why Bud posts incessant
attacks. Should you learn why high reliability facilities do not use
plug-in protectors, then profits are at risk.

Bud says a power strip will stop and absorb what even three miles of
sky could not. Scary pictures demonstrate what otherwise happens.
Why does Bud never post a power strip numeric spec? He cannot post
what does not exist. So Bud wants to discuss something completely
different - airplanes. Power strip protectors are not permitted on
airplanes. Appreciate one reason why. See those scary pictures.

Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage"
also describes the danger:
Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.
According to Bud, Norma was lying. Otherwise profits are at risk.
So Bud would rather attack the messenger.

Effective protection means surge energy is dissipated (and diverted,
shunted, clamped, connected, bonded, conducted) harmlessly in earth;
does not enter the building. A solution that costs tens or 100 times
less money is also so reliable as to be used anywhere that damage
cannot occur. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.