On Mar 10, 1:56*pm, wrote:
Now that's pretty funny. * The solution to not getting killed by
lightning is to stand with both legs in one spot?

Again, he posts without first learning facts. One author who writes
papers about surviving lightning is Dr Mary Ann Cooper from U of IL.
But again, one posts myths and mockery while another cites
professionals and generations of experience. Ignore an electrician
who replies while forgetting to first learn. Professionals recommend
keeping feet together as useful protection from lightning. Same
principles also demonstrates why single point earthing must be
implemented.

Some will only post to attack the messenger rather than contribute
knowledge. An informed poster would have known why feet together
means increased safety during lightning storms.

wrote:
On Mar 10, 3:29 pm, "Gary" wrote:
"westom" wrote in message

...

For surge protection, a dish
is earthed to withstand direct lightning strikes (without damage).

Damn, I don't need lightning rods? I can just put up 2 or 3 dishes?

Um, do I need the satelite receivers or can I just connect the dish to a
VCR?? (I know the VCR doesn't receive satelite, but would it provide
lightning protection??)

Or what happens if I don't connect any wires inside the house??

Geez w, I think I'll go into the lightning protection business.



Correct, many dish installers do not properly earth the dish. But
code requires that earthing for human safety.

Thankyou, I will do that. I am mounting them in the "A" on the side of my
house opposite my attic. My attic has lights in it. Can I just run a wire
to bond to one of the metal electrical boxes? Is it code to run a ground
wire directly into the electrical box to tie the sats and coax bonding to?


No. The DISH and the cable grounding block should be directly tied
to the central building ground. If the antenna is located close to
the electric service entrance, that should be easy to do.


trader and w and I agree that the dish has to be grounded to the power
earthing system, just like cable and phone. (Hmm, or I musta
misunderstood w.)

--
bud--

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.



That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement. So
my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14 ground to
an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney chases
and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there houses to
burn down?

"Gary" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.



That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14 ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.

On Mar 11, 8:21*am, "Gary" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. *I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. *My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement. *So
my ground has to go directly back to the panel? *I can use a #14 ground to
an electrical box in the attic. *(on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney chases
and neither of them has a ground on them. *Will this cause there houses to
burn down?

Possibly, if lightning strikes the dish. Or more likely, it could blow
up your satelite receiver, TV, etc. And it doesn't meet code. How
lucky do you feel?

On Mar 11, 8:26*am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...







wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. *I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. *My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement..
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? *I can use a #14 ground
to an electrical box in the attic. *(on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. *Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and
me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers
here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to
the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure
you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an
acceptable ground that meets code.

westom wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:16 pm, bud-- wrote:

w forgot to include part of Mark’s post:
"You do know that they have lightning surge protection on electronics in
airplanes."

w forgot to answer the question - how do you protect an airplane if "no
earth ground means no effective protection".

Another problem that a sales promoter hopes you avoid - scary
pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554

w refuses to understand his own hanford link. It is about "some older
model" power strips and says overheating was fixed with a revision to
UL1449 that required thermal disconnects. That was 1998. There is no
reason to believe, from any of these links, that there is a problem with
suppressors produced under the UL standard that has been in effect since
1998. None of these links even say a damaged suppressor had a UL label.

But with no valid technical arguments all w has is pathetic scare tactics.

Bud is paid to promote power strip protectors.

w is so pathetic. If he had valid arguments he wouldn't lie about others.

A GE white paper

Where is the source???
Suppressors are actually tested by UL.

Bud says a power strip will stop and absorb what even three miles of
sky could not.

The village idiot repeats the lie because he can't understand what the
IEEE guide clearly explains. Plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

w's religious mantra protects him from conflicting thoughts (aka reality).

Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with w that plug-in
suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:
- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge
protection"?
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device?
- Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says "electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in
[suppressors] at the point of use"?
- Why aren’t airplanes crashing regularly - "no earth ground means no
effective protection".

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:
Warning to Gary:
Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14 ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.
I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.


You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and
me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers
here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to
the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure
you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an
acceptable ground that meets code.

I read back through the NEC. If the US-NEC is enforced requirements are
- ground block where coax enters the house
- #10 (if copper) minimum size ground wire from ground block, run in as
straight a line as practicable. Length is not limited (it is for phone
and cable).
- ground wire attaches anywhere on the power grounding electrode system
including the heavy wires to the grounding electrode(s)
- "metal structures supporting the antenna" have to be similarly
grounded. A dish is not specifically mentioned. You could argue the dish
and structure are grounded by the coax to the ground block and that
would probably provide protection.

You are not protecting from a direct lightning strike to the dish
(contrary to one opinion). Protection from a direct strike would
require a heavier dish ground wire with short connection to earth (which
would have to be bonded to the power earthing system). And the
connection from the dish entry ground block to the power earthing system
would have to be short with consideration for the effects of high
currents. I believe the earthing is primarily protection from the dish
and lead-in getting direct pickup from a near lightning strike.

If the dish was connected only to its own ground rod, there could be
thousands of volts between that ground rod (the dish coax) and the power
ground if there was a large surge current to earth through the power
earthing system or if there was a very near lightning strike.

As trader suggests RTFM?

--
bud--

On Mar 9, 3:30*am, westom wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:17*pm, bud-- wrote:

It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, *w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

* Bud again does what he does routinely. *First, Bud follows me
everywhere to promote plug-in protectors. *Eventually he then posts
insults. *Bud is a salesman; a promoter for plug-in protectors. *He
does not have design experience; literally witnessing direct strikes
without damage.

* Bud repeatedly posts citations that contradict his claims. *Quotes
from his NIST citation:

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest
a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

* *What does Bud's plug-in protector do? *Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges. *How does that tiny part inside a power strip
absorb or stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop? *Bud refuses to
answer. *Instead, Bud claims his protector clamps surges to nothing.
His magic box will make a surge disappear? *Clamping to nothing will
dissipate surge energy? *Of course not.

*Why does every telco everywhere in the world not use Bud’s
protectors? *They need protection that actually works and costs much
less money. *An effective protector makes a short connection to
earth. *Telcos use effective ‘whole house’ protectors. *Even Bud's
NIST citation bluntly says that on page 17:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. *The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

* Protectors promoted by Bud have no dedicated earth ground. *Somehow
it will magically dissipate surge energy? *Worse, an adjacent
protector may even earth a surge destructively through adjacent
appliances. *Just another reason why surges must be earthed before
entering a building. *Just another reason why telcos don’t waste money
on power strip protectors.

* From Southwest Bell's FAQ on Surge protection:



* How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges? (#10431)
Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following
components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...
Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump
the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory
requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge
protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to
protect downstream equipment.
Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds
of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still
enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to
pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the
services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into
and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the
process. *...
Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together
there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of
the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional
paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from
seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic
equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground
system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from
damage. ...
By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best
protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the
service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges
which enter from the power company’s service entrance feed.

* Should the reader learn reality, then profits are at risk. *So Bud
1) follows me everywhere, 2) to post insults.

* If honest, Bud would post a manufacturer numeric specs that claims
plug-in protector protection. *Bud always refuses. *No power strip
protector manufacturer claims to protect from the typically
destructive surge. *No specs exist. *An effective protector means
protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

*Earth one 'whole house' protector. *Then energy from direct lightning
strikes is harmlessly dissipated in earth – as Southwest Bell and NIST
both state. *A properly sized and properly earthed 'whole house'
protector means nobody even knows a surge existed.

* Effective protection means even the protector is not harmed. *Many
have seen damaged power strip protectors – no effective protection.
Effective 'whole house' protectors are sized to earth even direct
lightning strikes without damage. Numbers that say so posted
previously.

* Detailed above is how even the US Air Force, Sun Microsystems,
munitions storage dumps, FCC, NASA, every telephone company,
commercial radio and TV stations ... how surge protection is installed
to not have damage. In every case, a protector makes a short
connection to single point earth ground; for both conductivity and
equipotential. *An engineer knows this. *A sales promoter will reply
with mockery and insults. *He will continue posting until he has the
last word. *He does this everywhere. *Sales are at risk.

* So where are those manufacturer spec numbers that Bud refuses to
provide?

Tom W.

What is it that actually does the damage when a consumer electronic
device is damaged during a voltage spike? Is it voltage? No it is
current that flows in a large enough amperage to be destructive. How
much that is varies with the nature of the device. What controls how
much current will flow through the device in question? Answer: The
total impedance of the pathway and the voltage imposed across the
pathway. How much current will flow if the voltage on one side of the
device to be protected is zero relative to ground and the voltage on
the other side is 1000 relative to ground at an impedance of say 1 k
ohm. Will the current be different if the voltage on the first point
were 10,000 volts and the voltage at the second point were 11,000
volts across the same device? Please answer that question. If your
answer is anything other then the current flow would be exactly the
same you have discredited yourself. What happens to the current flow
if the voltage at the first point is 500,000 volts and the voltage at
the second point is 501,000? Now lets install a surge protective
device that will limit the difference across those same two points to
440 volts and at any point above 440 volts makes the effective
difference much lower then 440 by bypassing the current around the
device. How much current will flow now? The answer is the total
current flow through the device will be less then a destructive
current flow. Fully effective protection does not have to limit the
voltage to ground. It only has to limit the current through the
device to be protected. As long as the surge protective device
provides a low enough impedance pathway around the device to be
protected that the voltage across the protected device is held to a
low enough value not enough current will be forced through the
protected device to damage it. Success! And to achieve that success
all we have to do is limit the voltage across the thing we are trying
to protect to a voltage that will not force enough coulombs of
electrons through the protected circuit fast enough to cause damage.
Aircraft are struck by lightning quite frequently. Their on board
electronics usually survive those events. The last time I flew I
didn't see some endless super conductor trailing behind the aircraft
until it eventually touched the ground. How then is it possible to
provide protection to the extremely delicate and sophisticated
electronics on the aircraft. Hint: It does not have a thing to do
with grounding. It has everything to do with bonding and installing
effective bypass circuits to shunt any unwanted current flow around
the electronics that require protection.

--
Tom Horne

On Mar 11, 12:32*pm, bud-- wrote:
westom wrote:
On Mar 10, 1:16 pm, bud-- wrote:

w *forgot to include part of Mark’s post:
"You do know that they have lightning surge protection on electronics in
airplanes."

w *forgot to answer the question - how do you protect an airplane if "no
earth ground means no effective protection".

* *Another problem that a sales promoter hopes you avoid - scary
pictures:
*http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554

w *refuses to understand his own hanford link. *It is about "some older
model" power strips and says overheating was fixed with a revision to
UL1449 that required thermal disconnects. That was 1998. There is no
reason to believe, from any of these links, that there is a problem with
suppressors produced under the UL standard that has been in effect since
1998. None of these links even say a damaged suppressor had a UL label.

But with no valid technical arguments all w has is pathetic scare tactics..

* Bud is paid to promote power strip protectors.

w *is so pathetic. If he had valid arguments he wouldn't lie about others.

* A GE white paper

Where is the source???
Suppressors are actually tested by UL.

* Bud says a power strip will stop and absorb what even three miles of
sky could not.

The village idiot repeats the lie because he can't understand what the
IEEE guide clearly explains. Plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

w's religious mantra protects him from conflicting thoughts (aka reality)..

Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with *w that plug-in
suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:
- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge
protection"?
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device?
- Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says *"electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in
[suppressors] at the point of use"?
- Why aren’t airplanes crashing regularly - "no earth ground means no
effective protection".

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

Bud

It might be helpful to those trying to sort the good advice from the
bad advice if you refrained from calling Tom W. an idiot. Name
calling causes people to get turned off and skip over otherwise good
advice. I'd suggest we leave the libel to the person who has made the
provably false statements about you in these forums. I base this
suggestion on the old country style advise that it is unwise to
wrestle with a pig because you will get filthy rotten dirty and the
pig will enjoy it. Additionally even though Tom W may be terribly
misinformed on this issue as well as being the stubbornest person
who's opinions I've been subjected to he is not an idiot per se. Lets
leave the mud slinging to those that have no such weapons as
reasonable argument and honest debate to bring to bear and therefore
have to resort to name calling.

For what it is worth.
--
Tom Horne

On Mar 11, 8:26*am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...





wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. *I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. *My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement..
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? *I can use a #14 ground
to an electrical box in the attic. *(on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. *Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.

Gary

You really have chosen an installation location that is very difficult
to protect. If you bond the dish to the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) of your attic lighting circuit then the voltage on that circuit
would rise to a very high value during a lightning strike to the dish
itself or anything near by. That will jeopardize anything on that
circuit that also has a connection to a wire carried utility other
than the power lines. It will also jeopardize the circuit itself as a
lightning strike will destroy the insulation on the two insulated
conductors when the voltage on the circuits EGC rises to a point well
above the effective insulation puncture withstand of the cable.

You need to run a conductor of at least the gauge specified in the
installation instructions all the way down to the ground. You then
install a ground rod and connect the dishes grounding conductor to
that rod. Here is the part that you will just hate. You then run a
bonding conductor from that ground rod to the electrical Grounding
Electrode System located at or near the the electrical panel. The
minimum size for that bonding conductor is number six American Wire
Gauge under the US NEC but larger would be better.

If you want to improve your homes lightning and surge / spike
protection you will run the required bonding conductor around the
house buried in the earth. Then as long as you use a bare conductor
you will be increasing the earth contact surface area of the Grounding
Electrode System.

--
Tom Horne

On Mar 11, 3:41*pm, Tom Horne wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:26*am, "Gary" wrote:





"Gary" wrote in message

...

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. *I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. *My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.

On Mar 11, 8:21*am, "Gary" wrote:
I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney chases
and neither of them has agroundon them. *Will this cause there houses to
burn down?

Tom Horne accurately described how that dish is grounded to meet
code. If your dish cannot be grounded to the building ground, better
is to earth it as short as practical to a good earthing electrode. As
Tom notes, to meet code, bury a conductor from that dish ground rod to
the building earth ground. This also enhances the building earthing -
makes better equipotential and conductivity. But as you have seen,
most installers don't even spend money for a ground wire and ground
rod.

Connecting to a ground wire inside the building is not earth
ground. Not sufficient and dangerous including reasons that Tom Horne
has provided.

How much danger is that dish at? How often does lightning strike in
your neighborhood? In some locations, lower land is more often struck
(that lightning strikes higher locations is often a myth). Frequency
of lightning is related more to geology and other factors. But since
earthing a dish is so simple, then a direct and short connection from
dish to earth is preferred.

Also recommended is to keep the dish antenna lead outside until it
is earthed at the service entrance.

On Mar 11, 2:53*pm, Tom Horne wrote:
What is it that actually does thedamagewhen a consumer electronic
device is damaged during a voltage spike? *Is it voltage? *No it is
current that flows in a large enough amperage to be destructive. *How
much that is varies with the nature of the device. *What controls how
much current will flow through the device in question? *Answer: *The
total impedance of the pathway and the voltage imposed across the
pathway. *How much current will flow if the voltage on one side of the
device to be protected is zero relative togroundand the voltage on
the other side is 1000 relative togroundat an impedance of say 1 k
ohm. *Will the current be different if the voltage on the first point
were 10,000 volts and the voltage at the second point were 11,000
volts across the same device? *Please answer that question. *If your
answer is anything other then the current flow would be exactly the
same you have discredited yourself. * ...

Your question is confusing because effective protection is about
current. For example, the minimally acceptable ‘whole house’
protector is rated 50,000 amps. Voltage is a function of protector
ratings, quality of connections (ie impedance), etc. Voltage is a
dependent variable. Current is the independent variable.

Surges are current sources. That means voltage will rise as high
as necessary to maintain current flow. Even wood is a conductor. To
maintain lightning current, then a church steeple voltage is higher -
destruction. So that the same current flows without damage, Franklin
earthed lightning rods. Now that current makes near zero volts;
energy is dissipated harmlessly elsewhere. Protection is about
current. Flowing current so that voltage is not created. What is
your question? Why do you confuse the issue with voltages when
constant current (a surge) will flow no matter what those voltages
are.

How much current flows if one voltage is 1000 and the other side is
1100? Not relevant because the same current flows whether the
voltage is 100 volts or 1000 volts different.

Are you trying to discuss equipotential? If voltage on the black
wire is 8100 volts and the voltage on the white wire is only 8000
volts, then the power line only sees a 100 volt surge. Meanwhile,
8000 volts pushes current across the TV to the coax wire or through
the furniture to the floor, or through the kid who was touching it
then. No equipotential existed because current from the room to earth
was still 8000 volts. That reality is demonstrated in an IEEE guide
page 42 Figure 8. To have equipotential in a room not carefully
engineered, then surge currents must be diverted BEFORE entering the
room.

Why make the topic even more difficult? We are discussing cloud to
ground lightning. Why waste everyone’s time with cloud to cloud
lightning and a ground issue that makes this discussion equivalent to
a Dr Souse tale?

Airplanes are designed to make cloud to cloud surges irrelevant and
also install protection connecting lightning to earth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNEZipGyRQ4

So what is your point? Once hundreds or thousands of amps are
permitting inside a building, then that current will raise voltages as
necessary to flow to earth. All high reliability facilities eliminate
the problem where current enters the building. Those thousands of
amps earthed at the entrance creates near zero volts inside. Those
same thousand of amps inside a building - see page 42 Figure 8 - a TV
8000 volts damaged because current through a power strip protector
still had to find earth ground.

Your super conductor wire suggests you still did not grasp the most
important point even though you said:
It has everything to do with bonding and installing effective bypass
circuits to shunt any unwanted current flow around the electronics
that require protection.

What do you think I have been posting all this time? Don’t you get
it? Bonding, clamping, conducting, shunting, diverting, connecting –
its all the same thing. And it does something only when bonded ./
diverted to what? Earthing a ‘whole house’ protector is so that
current flows around the electronics – not through it. So that energy
is dissipated in earth – not inside the house. Why did Franklin earth
a lightning rod? Exact same thing is performed by earthing a ‘whole
house’ protector. . So that current flows around the wood /
electronics – not through it. Something that a plug-in protector
cannot do. High current without high voltage inside means no
massive and destructive energy. Exactly why a protector is only as
effective as its earth ground – so that current has that low impedance
path around electronics.

Ok. Your quoted sentence is exactly what I have been discussing all
along. Why are you confused? Was it the usual insults from Bud,
saltydoy, etc that masked the underlying science? That is Bud's
objective. To keep things nasty so that the science is not apparent.

In article
,
Tom Horne wrote:

On Mar 9, 3:30*am, westom wrote:
On Mar 8, 1:17*pm, bud-- wrote:

It is the religious belief in earthing. Apparently, because it makes him
look so stupid, *w doesn't want to clearly say what he believes - that
plug-in suppressors do not work.

* Bud again does what he does routinely. *First, Bud follows me
everywhere to promote plug-in protectors. *Eventually he then posts
insults. *Bud is a salesman; a promoter for plug-in protectors. *He
does not have design experience; literally witnessing direct strikes
without damage.

* Bud repeatedly posts citations that contradict his claims. *Quotes
from his NIST citation:

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it.
What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest
a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

* *What does Bud's plug-in protector do? *Without earthing, it must
stop or absorb surges. *How does that tiny part inside a power strip
absorb or stop what 3 miles of sky could not stop? *Bud refuses to
answer. *Instead, Bud claims his protector clamps surges to nothing.
His magic box will make a surge disappear? *Clamping to nothing will
dissipate surge energy? *Of course not.

*Why does every telco everywhere in the world not use Bud¹s
protectors? *They need protection that actually works and costs much
less money. *An effective protector makes a short connection to
earth. *Telcos use effective Œwhole house¹ protectors. *Even Bud's
NIST citation bluntly says that on page 17:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. *The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

* Protectors promoted by Bud have no dedicated earth ground. *Somehow
it will magically dissipate surge energy? *Worse, an adjacent
protector may even earth a surge destructively through adjacent
appliances. *Just another reason why surges must be earthed before
entering a building. *Just another reason why telcos don¹t waste money
on power strip protectors.

* From Southwest Bell's FAQ on Surge protection:



* How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges? (#10431)
Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following
components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...
Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump
the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory
requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge
protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to
protect downstream equipment.
Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds
of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still
enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt
to
pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the
services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into
and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the
process. *...
Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together
there are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all
of
the grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional
paths to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from
seeking out any additional grounds through that premise and the
electronic
equipment within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground
system until dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from
damage. ...
By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best
protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at
the
service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against
surges
which enter from the power company¹s service entrance feed.

* Should the reader learn reality, then profits are at risk. *So Bud
1) follows me everywhere, 2) to post insults.

* If honest, Bud would post a manufacturer numeric specs that claims
plug-in protector protection. *Bud always refuses. *No power strip
protector manufacturer claims to protect from the typically
destructive surge. *No specs exist. *An effective protector means
protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

*Earth one 'whole house' protector. *Then energy from direct lightning
strikes is harmlessly dissipated in earth * as Southwest Bell and NIST
both state. *A properly sized and properly earthed 'whole house'
protector means nobody even knows a surge existed.

* Effective protection means even the protector is not harmed. *Many
have seen damaged power strip protectors * no effective protection.
Effective 'whole house' protectors are sized to earth even direct
lightning strikes without damage. Numbers that say so posted
previously.

* Detailed above is how even the US Air Force, Sun Microsystems,
munitions storage dumps, FCC, NASA, every telephone company,
commercial radio and TV stations ... how surge protection is installed
to not have damage. In every case, a protector makes a short
connection to single point earth ground; for both conductivity and
equipotential. *An engineer knows this. *A sales promoter will reply
with mockery and insults. *He will continue posting until he has the
last word. *He does this everywhere. *Sales are at risk.

* So where are those manufacturer spec numbers that Bud refuses to
provide?

Tom W.

What is it that actually does the damage when a consumer electronic
device is damaged during a voltage spike? Is it voltage? No it is
current that flows in a large enough amperage to be destructive. How
much that is varies with the nature of the device. What controls how
much current will flow through the device in question? Answer: The
total impedance of the pathway and the voltage imposed across the
pathway. How much current will flow if the voltage on one side of the
device to be protected is zero relative to ground and the voltage on
the other side is 1000 relative to ground at an impedance of say 1 k
ohm. Will the current be different if the voltage on the first point
were 10,000 volts and the voltage at the second point were 11,000
volts across the same device? Please answer that question. If your
answer is anything other then the current flow would be exactly the
same you have discredited yourself. What happens to the current flow
if the voltage at the first point is 500,000 volts and the voltage at
the second point is 501,000? Now lets install a surge protective
device that will limit the difference across those same two points to
440 volts and at any point above 440 volts makes the effective
difference much lower then 440 by bypassing the current around the
device. How much current will flow now? The answer is the total
current flow through the device will be less then a destructive
current flow. Fully effective protection does not have to limit the
voltage to ground. It only has to limit the current through the
device to be protected. As long as the surge protective device
provides a low enough impedance pathway around the device to be
protected that the voltage across the protected device is held to a
low enough value not enough current will be forced through the
protected device to damage it. Success! And to achieve that success
all we have to do is limit the voltage across the thing we are trying
to protect to a voltage that will not force enough coulombs of
electrons through the protected circuit fast enough to cause damage.
Aircraft are struck by lightning quite frequently. Their on board
electronics usually survive those events. The last time I flew I
didn't see some endless super conductor trailing behind the aircraft
until it eventually touched the ground. How then is it possible to
provide protection to the extremely delicate and sophisticated
electronics on the aircraft. Hint: It does not have a thing to do
with grounding. It has everything to do with bonding and installing
effective bypass circuits to shunt any unwanted current flow around
the electronics that require protection.

--
Tom Horne

Tom, were you sick the day they talked about paragraphs in school? A
person could get a headache, vertigo, and brain cancer just from looking
at all that unbroken text. Actually trying to read it could be fatal.

westom wrote:

That reality is demonstrated in an IEEE guide
page 42 Figure 8.

If poor w was not hampered by religious blinders he could discover what
the IEEE guide says in this example:

- A plug-in suppressor protects the TV connected to it.
- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground
wire from cable entry ground block to the ground at the power service
that is far too long (a problem in many houses). In that case the IEEE
guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use
a multiport [plug-in] protector." (A suppressor like the OP finally
bought can also be used.)
- w's favored power service suppressor would provide absolutely *NO*
protection.

Airplanes are designed to make cloud to cloud surges irrelevant and
also install protection connecting lightning to earth:

There you have it.
Airplanes do actually "install protection connecting lightning to earth."
An invisible earthing chain???


Was it the usual insults from Bud,
saltydoy, etc that masked the underlying science? That is Bud's
objective. To keep things nasty so that the science is not apparent.

Poor sensitive w. No one *ever* agrees with him.
Current list: bud, trader, salty, TomH, Mark.

If you want science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.


Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with w that plug-in
suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:
- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge
protection"?
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device?
- Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says "electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in
[suppressors] at the point of use"?
- Why aren’t airplanes crashing regularly - "no earth ground means no
effective protection".

Why can't you answer simple questions w????

--
bud--

Tom Horne wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...
That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14 ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.
I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.

You really have chosen an installation location that is very difficult
to protect. If you bond the dish to the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) of your attic lighting circuit then the voltage on that circuit
would rise to a very high value during a lightning strike to the dish
itself or anything near by. That will jeopardize anything on that
circuit that also has a connection to a wire carried utility other
than the power lines. It will also jeopardize the circuit itself as a
lightning strike will destroy the insulation on the two insulated
conductors when the voltage on the circuits EGC rises to a point well
above the effective insulation puncture withstand of the cable.

You need to run a conductor of at least the gauge specified in the
installation instructions all the way down to the ground. You then
install a ground rod and connect the dishes grounding conductor to
that rod. Here is the part that you will just hate. You then run a
bonding conductor from that ground rod to the electrical Grounding
Electrode System located at or near the the electrical panel. The
minimum size for that bonding conductor is number six American Wire
Gauge under the US NEC but larger would be better.

If you want to improve your homes lightning and surge / spike
protection you will run the required bonding conductor around the
house buried in the earth. Then as long as you use a bare conductor
you will be increasing the earth contact surface area of the Grounding
Electrode System.

TomH missed a coax ground block, required where the dish coax enters the
building. If the dish coax goes down to the basement, in Tom’s scheme
the ground block is connected to the ground rod - could be via the #6
wire as it goes past.

----------------------------
Do you think the NEC minimum #10 wire from the dish to the rod would
survive a direct lightning strike?

Phone and cable entry wires can carry a fraction of a lightning strike
to the outside wires (there are multiple paths to earth). The NEC, in
general, requires the phone and cable entry protectors to connect with a
max 20 foot long wire to the power earthing system.( That may not be
short enough to protect equipment from high voltage between power and
signal wires.)
The NEC has *no* maximum length for the connection from a dish coax
entry ground block to the power earthing system. I don't see how the NEC
intended for it's requirements to protect from a direct lightning
strike. Unless there is a dish coax ground block with a short connection
to the power earthing system, equipment damage is very likely. If I was
a ham radio operator and expected an antenna to be hit by lightning I
would have much more elaborate protection. For a rather low 10,000A
lightning strike and a very good 10 ohm rod resistance to earth, the rod
connection is 100,000V above "absolute" earth potential. Fortunately,
for most of us a direct strike is extremely unlikely. And the OP is
putting the dish on the side of the house, which should make it a less
likely target.

I have concerns that a remote rod (and the dish coax connected to it)
could wind up at a very different potential than the power earthing
system if there is a strong surge that is earthed (power, phone, cable),
or there is a very close lightning strike (ground potential rise). The
bond wire certainly helps, but has significant impedance for surges.
Increasing the size does not help as much as is expected.

Bottom line - if I was installing a dish on my house I would try to
install it low where a direct lightning strike would be not worth
worrying about. I would try to bring the coax in near the power service.
In any case I would be unlikely to add a ground rod.

--
bud--

On Mar 12, 2:33*pm, bud-- wrote:
westom wrote:

That reality is demonstrated in an *IEEE guide
page 42 Figure 8.

If poor *w was not hampered by religious blinders he could discover what
the IEEE guide says in this example:

- A plug-in suppressor protects the TV connected to it.
- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground
wire from cable entry ground block to the ground at the power service
that is far too long (a problem in many houses). In that case the IEEE
guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use
a multiport [plug-in] protector." (A suppressor like the OP finally
bought can also be used.)
- w's favored power service suppressor would provide absolutely *NO*
protection.

* *Airplanes are designed to make cloud to cloud surges irrelevant and
also install protection connecting lightning to earth:

There you have it.
Airplanes do actually "install protection connecting lightning to earth."
An invisible earthing chain???

Was it the usual insults from Bud,
saltydoy, etc that masked the underlying science? *That is Bud's
objective. *To keep things nasty so that the science is not apparent.

Poor sensitive w. *No one *ever* agrees with him.
Current list: bud, trader, salty, TomH, Mark.

If you want science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with *w that plug-in
suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:
- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge
protection"?
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device?
- Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says *"electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in
[suppressors] at the point of use"?
- Why aren’t airplanes crashing regularly - "no earth ground means no
effective protection".

Why can't you answer simple questions *w????

--
bud--


To the above critique of w's post, I can't resist adding:

"Why make the topic even more difficult? We are discussing cloud to
ground lightning. Why waste everyone’s time with cloud to cloud
lightning and a ground issue that makes this discussion equivalent to
a Dr Souse tale? "

I thought all along we were discussing surge protection.

"What do you think I have been posting all this time? Don’t you get
it? Bonding, clamping, conducting, shunting, diverting, connecting –
its all the same thing. And it does something only when bonded ./
diverted to what? "


I think it's news to the rest of us that all those are the same thing.

Seems that airplane example has w's head about to explode. Because
for the guy that's been saying there can be no surge protection
without a direct 10ft connection to earth ground, it's an
insurmountable paradox. For the rest of us, we know that the way
they achieve aircraft surge protection is through a combination of
those different techniques. And the clamping they would do on the
inputs to say electronic sensors or communications gear is similar in
principle to that done by a plug-in surge protector.

wrote in message
...
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...







wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14
ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and
me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers
here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to
the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure
you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an
acceptable ground that meets code.

I was asking now about the grounding block to a junction box. Why do you
want to respond to a strangers post if you have no helpful information?

"bud--" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:
Warning to Gary:
Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am
now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house
and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the
basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14
ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.
I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.


You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and
me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers
here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to
the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure
you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an
acceptable ground that meets code.

I read back through the NEC. If the US-NEC is enforced requirements are
- ground block where coax enters the house
- #10 (if copper) minimum size ground wire from ground block, run in as
straight a line as practicable. Length is not limited (it is for phone and
cable).
- ground wire attaches anywhere on the power grounding electrode system
including the heavy wires to the grounding electrode(s)
- "metal structures supporting the antenna" have to be similarly grounded.
A dish is not specifically mentioned. You could argue the dish and
structure are grounded by the coax to the ground block and that would
probably provide protection.

You are not protecting from a direct lightning strike to the dish
(contrary to one opinion). Protection from a direct strike would require
a heavier dish ground wire with short connection to earth (which would
have to be bonded to the power earthing system). And the connection from
the dish entry ground block to the power earthing system would have to be
short with consideration for the effects of high currents. I believe the
earthing is primarily protection from the dish and lead-in getting direct
pickup from a near lightning strike.

If the dish was connected only to its own ground rod, there could be
thousands of volts between that ground rod (the dish coax) and the power
ground if there was a large surge current to earth through the power
earthing system or if there was a very near lightning strike.

As trader suggests RTFM?

--
bud--

Thanks for the info Bud. From my reading on the net the grounding of the
dish is for static buildup only.

"Tom Horne" wrote in message
...
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...





wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14
ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.

Gary

You really have chosen an installation location that is very difficult
to protect. If you bond the dish to the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) of your attic lighting circuit then the voltage on that circuit
would rise to a very high value during a lightning strike to the dish
itself or anything near by. That will jeopardize anything on that
circuit that also has a connection to a wire carried utility other
than the power lines. It will also jeopardize the circuit itself as a
lightning strike will destroy the insulation on the two insulated
conductors when the voltage on the circuits EGC rises to a point well
above the effective insulation puncture withstand of the cable.

You need to run a conductor of at least the gauge specified in the
installation instructions all the way down to the ground. You then
install a ground rod and connect the dishes grounding conductor to
that rod. Here is the part that you will just hate. You then run a
bonding conductor from that ground rod to the electrical Grounding
Electrode System located at or near the the electrical panel. The
minimum size for that bonding conductor is number six American Wire
Gauge under the US NEC but larger would be better.

If you want to improve your homes lightning and surge / spike
protection you will run the required bonding conductor around the
house buried in the earth. Then as long as you use a bare conductor
you will be increasing the earth contact surface area of the Grounding
Electrode System.

--
Tom Horne

Thx Tom. My drywall is not up yet I can run a wire to an electrode that I
drove in the basement next to the sump pit. I have that tied to a ground
under the footing about 10' away. That is then tied into my panel. So I
should tie into the ground rod and not the ground under the footing first?

Another quesstion. If lightening strikes my dish on the side of my house
and I have the wire grounded though a ground wire on my attic circuit, is
the burned out circuit the worst of my problems?

"bud--" wrote in message
...
Tom Horne wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Gary" wrote in message

...
That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am
now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house
and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the
basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14
ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.
I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.

You really have chosen an installation location that is very difficult
to protect. If you bond the dish to the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) of your attic lighting circuit then the voltage on that circuit
would rise to a very high value during a lightning strike to the dish
itself or anything near by. That will jeopardize anything on that
circuit that also has a connection to a wire carried utility other
than the power lines. It will also jeopardize the circuit itself as a
lightning strike will destroy the insulation on the two insulated
conductors when the voltage on the circuits EGC rises to a point well
above the effective insulation puncture withstand of the cable.

You need to run a conductor of at least the gauge specified in the
installation instructions all the way down to the ground. You then
install a ground rod and connect the dishes grounding conductor to
that rod. Here is the part that you will just hate. You then run a
bonding conductor from that ground rod to the electrical Grounding
Electrode System located at or near the the electrical panel. The
minimum size for that bonding conductor is number six American Wire
Gauge under the US NEC but larger would be better.

If you want to improve your homes lightning and surge / spike
protection you will run the required bonding conductor around the
house buried in the earth. Then as long as you use a bare conductor
you will be increasing the earth contact surface area of the Grounding
Electrode System.

TomH missed a coax ground block, required where the dish coax enters the
building. If the dish coax goes down to the basement, in Tom’s scheme the
ground block is connected to the ground rod - could be via the #6 wire as
it goes past.

----------------------------
Do you think the NEC minimum #10 wire from the dish to the rod would
survive a direct lightning strike?

Phone and cable entry wires can carry a fraction of a lightning strike to
the outside wires (there are multiple paths to earth). The NEC, in
general, requires the phone and cable entry protectors to connect with a
max 20 foot long wire to the power earthing system.( That may not be short
enough to protect equipment from high voltage between power and signal
wires.)
The NEC has *no* maximum length for the connection from a dish coax entry
ground block to the power earthing system. I don't see how the NEC
intended for it's requirements to protect from a direct lightning strike.
Unless there is a dish coax ground block with a short connection to the
power earthing system, equipment damage is very likely. If I was a ham
radio operator and expected an antenna to be hit by lightning I would have
much more elaborate protection. For a rather low 10,000A lightning strike
and a very good 10 ohm rod resistance to earth, the rod connection is
100,000V above "absolute" earth potential. Fortunately, for most of us a
direct strike is extremely unlikely. And the OP is putting the dish on the
side of the house, which should make it a less likely target.

I have concerns that a remote rod (and the dish coax connected to it)
could wind up at a very different potential than the power earthing system
if there is a strong surge that is earthed (power, phone, cable), or there
is a very close lightning strike (ground potential rise). The bond wire
certainly helps, but has significant impedance for surges. Increasing the
size does not help as much as is expected.

Bottom line - if I was installing a dish on my house I would try to
install it low where a direct lightning strike would be not worth worrying
about. I would try to bring the coax in near the power service. In any
case I would be unlikely to add a ground rod.

--
bud--

I have to get the dish up high to get over my neighbors roofline for my line
of sight.

On Mar 13, 1:55*am, "Gary" wrote:
Another quesstion. *If lightening strikes my dish on the side of my house
and I have the wire grounded though a ground wire on my attic circuit, is
the burned out circuit the worst of my problems?

Appreciate EE principles that were posted earlier. Your concern is
not resistance. Protection from AC electric (near DC) currents means
that ground wire can be bundled with other wires, sharp bends,
splicing, etc. But your ground must also carry high frequency surge
currents. That means a connection to earth must be separated from
other wires, no sharp bends, no splices, etc. That safety ground wire
to an atttic light is low resistance; but high impedance. That is
only a safety ground wire; not an earth ground. Connection to that
safety ground wire would violate every (previously posted) earthing
principle.

For example, the earthing connection must be separated from other
wires. Safety ground wire inside Romex is bundled with other wires -
a violation of the principles.

Tom Horne properly described how that dish can be earthed and bonded
to meet code. Much work. A lesser ground is simply a ground wire
directly to a dedicated electrode and best routed outside the building
(for numerous reasons). Grounding the dish to a safety ground wire
inside the attic would be a worst solution both for lightning
protection and for human safety.

On Mar 12, 2:50*pm, bud-- wrote:
Do you think the NEC minimum #10 wire from the dish to the rod would
survive a direct lightning strike?

This is Bud again posting without first learning basic electrical
engineering facts. Many automatically post denials without first
learning basic electrical concepts. To mask insufficient technical
knowledge, they would also post insults.

Will a direct lightning strike harm a 10 AWG wire? An informed Bud
would have never posted that sentence. But again, I quote
professionals. From the Electrical Engineering Times article entitled
"Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients":
... consider that a bare 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) copper wire,
in air, normally will conduct at least 10 amperes safely, with
very low self-heating temperature rise. If the current slowly
rises, the temperature will increase until the melting
temperature of 1065° C (1950° F) is achieved at about 83 A.
This same temperature could be reached "instantly" by an 8x20
µs pulse at a current of 61 kA.

An 18 AWG wire is sufficient (marginal) to earth a typical 20,000
amp direct lightning strike without damage. Then we more than
quadruple that ground wire so that a direct lightning strike still
does not cause damage.

A sales promoter would not know this. A 10 AWG wire is more than
sufficient to earth direct lightning strikes on cable and telephone.
We then make that ground wire even four times thicker for AC electric
- 6 AWG.

But again, the limiting factor is not wire gauge (thickness).
Limiting factor is wire length and other critical parameters such as
no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, and separation from other
wires. Factors that provide lower impedance (not resistance) and
better earthing will also make or break protector effectiveness. But
again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That
means wire length. Even 10 AWG wire is sufficient to conduct direct
lightnings strikes.

Effective protection means direct lightning strikes are earthed
without entering a building and without damage. Not even damage to the
protector. A 10 AWG ground wire from a phone 'whole house' protector
(installed for free by telcos) or from coax cable (without any
protector) will earth direct lightning strikes without damage.
However wire to earth a dish is typically larger. A technically
informed sales promoter would have known 10 AWG is more than
sufficient.

And again, who not only knows the facts AND backs them up with
numbers and professional citations? Not Bud who routinely resorts to
posting insults.

Gary - important is know not from the numbers who agree. Important
is to know from the minority who actually did this stuff. Whose
designs suffered direct lightning strikes without damage.

On Mar 13, 1:51 am, "Gary" wrote:
Thanks for the info Bud. From my reading on the net the grounding of the
dish is for static buildup only.

A majority who discuss this stuff know only from popular urban
myths. Code is concerned with human safety. If any part of the dish
gets accidently shorted to live AC power, then the dish must short out
that current - trip the circuit breaker - so that humans are not
harmed. Code is about human safety. If grounding was only for static
electric discharge, then a 32 AWG wire would be more than sufficient.

Code requires the dish to be earthed for human safety reasons. Then
we also earth the dish so that direct lightning strikes cause no
damage. For the same reason that Ben Franklin earthed lightning rods
on wooden church steeples.

Earthing solves many problems. It also eliminates trivial static
electric charges. However those charges are made completely
irrelevant by protection already inside the receiver. That grounding
is also for human safety and for transistor safety (lightning
protection). Many who never knew this instead heard someone say it is
for static electric discharge. If true, they were grounding dishes and
antennas with wire no thicker than human hair - embedding that wire
inside the insulation of coax cable.

Just a few reasons why we know so many who fear static charges are
totally misinformed – yet automatically promote that widely believed
myth anyway.

On Mar 12, 3:44*pm, wrote:
I thought all along we were discussing surge protection.

We are discussing the simplest of surge protection - for buildings.
So simple that these
'best protection' principles were well understood and routinely
installed even 100 years ago. So why do you not understand what even
1920 Ham radio operators knew?

Surge protection for aerospace equipment is more complex. Same
principles apply. But the number of possible surges and numerous
directions for those surge currents make aerospace protection more
complex. See that URL for a 747 earthing a surge in Osaka.

So tell me. How much design work do you have with aerospace
equipment? Zero? Much of what I did and learn comes from aerospace
design. Those more complex problems are not relevant to routine surge
protection of terrestrial facilities. For that matter, why not also
confuse people with surge protection from nuclear EMP? Why not just
through in more grenades to confuse others and to justify your
personal vendetta?

To keep this simple, discussion is terrestrial protection.
Disagree? Then were is your professional citation or numbers to
support your claim? You never demonstrate that professional
knowledge. Basic electronics knowledge means you knew household surge
protection and airplane surge protection are significantly different
and not relevant to the OP's questions.

On Mar 12, 12:20*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
Tom, were you sick the day they talked about paragraphs in school? A
person could get a headache, vertigo, and brain cancer just from looking
at all that unbroken text. Actually trying to read it could be fatal.

Also appreciate my problem. I am trying to explain engineering
concepts to the many without EE training. I did not learn this stuff
in the first reading. Concepts that make obvious a futility in plug-
in protectors and the need for better earthing took multiple rereads
combined with some experience. I don't know how to make these
concepts any easier here especially when so many are poisoning the
water with personal attacks, half truths, and outright lies.

I also had difficulty replying to Tom Horne's post. It was not
clear what parts he did not grasp and an objective of his question
(s). However we do agree on one principle that a sales promoter must
deny to maintain sales. Surge protection is about diverting surge
currents. Currents that do not pass inside buildings and do not
create higher voltages means no surge damage, no protector damage, and
energy harmlessly dissipated in earth. A principle that even Ben
Franklin demonstrated in 1752 to keep lightning electricity seeking
earth ground, destructively, through wooden church steeples.

On Mar 13, 1:49*am, "Gary" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:





"Gary" wrote in message

...

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.

On Mar 13, 1:55*am, "Gary" wrote:
"Tom Horne" wrote in message

...
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:





"Gary" wrote in message

...

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement.

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
westom wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:51 am, "Gary" wrote:
Thanks for the info Bud. From my reading on the net the grounding of
the
dish is for static buildup only.

A majority who discuss this stuff know only from popular urban
myths. Code is concerned with human safety. If any part of the dish
gets accidently shorted to live AC power, then the dish must short out
that current - trip the circuit breaker - so that humans are not
harmed. Code is about human safety. If grounding was only for static
electric discharge, then a 32 AWG wire would be more than sufficient.

So the dish "ground" is to trip a circuit breaker? Another bizarre idea
(maybe it is an urban myth).

From the NIST guide:
"Surges of a slightly different kind can also happen in parts of other
electrical systems that do not directly involve a power line. Examples of
these a the antenna for a remote garage door opener, the sensor wiring
for an intrusion alarm system, the video signal part of a satellite dish
receiver. Surges in these systems are caused by nearby lightning strikes."

In case that was not clear - surges on satellite coax come from nearby
lightning strikes.

Code requires the dish to be earthed for human safety reasons. Then
we also earth the dish so that direct lightning strikes cause no
damage.

A competent ham would never protect their antenna and equipment from
lightning with any scheme that has been in this thread.

And the protection envisioned in the NEC is clearly not for lightning
protection.

Lightning strikes to a house, for almost all of us, is an extremely rare
event. A lightning strike to a dish is similarly rare.


[Apologies if this winds up as a duplicate post]

--
bud--

I was wondering how often satellite dishes get hit by lightning. Are there
stats?

wrote in message
...
On Mar 13, 1:49 am, "Gary" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:





"Gary" wrote in message

...

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"
wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am
now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house
and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the
basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14
ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and
me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers
here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to
the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure
you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an
acceptable ground that meets code.

I was asking now about the grounding block to a junction box. Why do you
want to respond to a strangers post if you have no helpful information?-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


And you asked the very same thing and I answered it 9 posts back with
the correct answer, that everyone here agrees with:

Q "Thank you, I will do that. I am mounting them in the "A" on the
side of my house opposite my attic. My attic has lights in it. Can
I just run a wire to bond to one of the metal electrical boxes? Is
it code to run a ground wire directly into the electrical box to tie
the sats and coax bonding to? "

A "No. The DISH and the cable grounding block should be directly
tied
to the central building ground. If the antenna is located close to
the electric service entrance, that should be easy to do.

There should be installation instructions that came with the dish
that
discuss correct installation. Or you can find the direction from the
manufacturer online. "


And if you think my saying that you should read the dish install
directions, go to the manufacturer's website where you can find
instructions, diagrams, etc, is unhelpful, then I'm beginning to think
there is no hope for you. Time to call an electrician.

You have too much time on your hands.....let it go. LOL

"westom" wrote in message
...
On Mar 12, 2:50 pm, bud-- wrote:
Do you think the NEC minimum #10 wire from the dish to the rod would
survive a direct lightning strike?

This is Bud again posting without first learning basic electrical
engineering facts. Many automatically post denials without first
learning basic electrical concepts. To mask insufficient technical
knowledge, they would also post insults.

Will a direct lightning strike harm a 10 AWG wire? An informed Bud
would have never posted that sentence. But again, I quote
professionals. From the Electrical Engineering Times article entitled
"Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients":
... consider that a bare 18 AWG (1 mm diameter) copper wire,
in air, normally will conduct at least 10 amperes safely, with
very low self-heating temperature rise. If the current slowly
rises, the temperature will increase until the melting
temperature of 1065° C (1950° F) is achieved at about 83 A.
This same temperature could be reached "instantly" by an 8x20
µs pulse at a current of 61 kA.

An 18 AWG wire is sufficient (marginal) to earth a typical 20,000
amp direct lightning strike without damage. Then we more than
quadruple that ground wire so that a direct lightning strike still
does not cause damage.

A sales promoter would not know this. A 10 AWG wire is more than
sufficient to earth direct lightning strikes on cable and telephone.
We then make that ground wire even four times thicker for AC electric
- 6 AWG.

But again, the limiting factor is not wire gauge (thickness).
Limiting factor is wire length and other critical parameters such as
no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, and separation from other
wires. Factors that provide lower impedance (not resistance) and
better earthing will also make or break protector effectiveness. But
again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That
means wire length. Even 10 AWG wire is sufficient to conduct direct
lightnings strikes.

Effective protection means direct lightning strikes are earthed
without entering a building and without damage. Not even damage to the
protector. A 10 AWG ground wire from a phone 'whole house' protector
(installed for free by telcos) or from coax cable (without any
protector) will earth direct lightning strikes without damage.
However wire to earth a dish is typically larger. A technically
informed sales promoter would have known 10 AWG is more than
sufficient.

And again, who not only knows the facts AND backs them up with
numbers and professional citations? Not Bud who routinely resorts to
posting insults.

Gary - important is know not from the numbers who agree. Important
is to know from the minority who actually did this stuff. Whose
designs suffered direct lightning strikes without damage.

I'm learning lots

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 06:08:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 13, 1:55 am, "Gary" wrote:
"Tom Horne" wrote in message

...
On Mar 11, 8:26 am, "Gary" wrote:





"Gary" wrote in message

...

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:29:08 -0600, "Gary"

wrote:

Warning to Gary:

Westom, aka W_tom, is a well known usenet kook and has been at this
for years. He has been known to post advice, which if followed
could
easily kill you or a loved one. Get your advice elsewhere. Really.

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am
now
back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house
and
the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the
basement.
So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14
ground
to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I
am
mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their
chimney
chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause
there
houses to burn down?

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to
electrical outlet box.

Gary

You really have chosen an installation location that is very difficult
to protect. If you bond the dish to the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) of your attic lighting circuit then the voltage on that circuit
would rise to a very high value during a lightning strike to the dish
itself or anything near by. That will jeopardize anything on that
circuit that also has a connection to a wire carried utility other
than the power lines. It will also jeopardize the circuit itself as a
lightning strike will destroy the insulation on the two insulated
conductors when the voltage on the circuits EGC rises to a point well
above the effective insulation puncture withstand of the cable.

You need to run a conductor of at least the gauge specified in the
installation instructions all the way down to the ground. You then
install a ground rod and connect the dishes grounding conductor to
that rod. Here is the part that you will just hate. You then run a
bonding conductor from that ground rod to the electrical Grounding
Electrode System located at or near the the electrical panel. The
minimum size for that bonding conductor is number six American Wire
Gauge under the US NEC but larger would be better.

If you want to improve your homes lightning and surge / spike
protection you will run the required bonding conductor around the
house buried in the earth. Then as long as you use a bare conductor
you will be increasing the earth contact surface area of the Grounding
Electrode System.

--
Tom Horne

Thx Tom. My drywall is not up yet I can run a wire to an electrode that
I
drove in the basement next to the sump pit. I have that tied to a ground
under the footing about 10' away. That is then tied into my panel. So I
should tie into the ground rod and not the ground under the footing
first?

Another quesstion. If lightening strikes my dish on the side of my house
and I have the wire grounded though a ground wire on my attic circuit,
is
the burned out circuit the worst of my problems?-


You propose to route a lightning strike from a roof mounted dish on
your house inside to an ordinary attic electrical box, using the very
end of the ground system, using probably 14 gauge wire, with who knows
how many splices, 90deg bends, long length, etc., and you want to know
if a burned out circuit is the worst of your problems?

How about when that kludged approach can't handle 25,000 amps, so
after the lightning gets started down that path, it takes another
one. You're sitting there watching TV and a fireball comes out of an
outlet and zaps you in the ass? Or it sets the house on fire.
Clearly you have no grasp of the concepts involved here. Call an
electrician before you harm yourself.

I'm beginning to think maybe Gary is a W_Tom sockpuppet. He's a little
too "deliberately thick" to pass the sniff test easily.



So what you are saying is that this is not a good idea. I THINK I GOT IT!
:-)

On Mar 13, 11:14 pm, "Gary" wrote:
I was wondering how often satellite dishes get hit by lightning. Are there
stats?

Dish strike is a function of what lightning seeks. For example,
lightning avoided a 60 foot high tree to strike earth some 40 feet
from that tree. Why? Bedrock came closer to the surface where
lightning struck. Lightning choose the better (more conductive) path.

In another case, homeowners installed lightning rods. Lightning
returned to strike the same bathroom wall. Lightning rods were only
earthed by eight foot electrodes in sand. Bathroom wall plumbing
connected to deeper and more conductive limestone. Just another
example of how prediction is based more on local details.

Asking about the frequency of strikes to dishes is not informative.
Best one can do is determine frequency of strikes to homes. More
informative are a number of strikes in the neighborhood in the past
decade, which items makes a better electrical connection to earth, and
variations in geology.

How often does lightning strike? More than 95% of lightning strikes
typically leave no apparent indication. Just another fact that makes
prediction hard. One observed that white pines also protect like
lightning rods. This NY Times article might provide a better grasp:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C0A9639582 60

However, an answer of the risk to dishes is relevant only with
numerous details unique to your neighborhood. Risk to a dish is
better understood with lightning history of the past decade unique to
your locale.