"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 05:16:16 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all



You are not old enough to remember what it was like in a large
city when coal was the primary fuel are you?

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:15:41 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 05:16:16 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

When did a BTU of NG get to be 125% the cost of a BTU of oil? Around
here NG is about 1/2 the cost. [not to mention the 'efficiency' thing]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all



You are not old enough to remember what it was like in a large
city when coal was the primary fuel are you?

I think he might be a Texan, too, so even if old enough I'm not sure
coal was a big deal in TX even 50 yrs ago. And hey- not just the
city. In my rural elementary school you could tell who still had
coal furnaces at home by the soot and smell. [and playing in the 400
cubic feet of the basement dedicated to coal storage was fun once--
the beating and long bath/scrubbing that followed took a lot of the
fun out of it]

Plus there's the whole 'efficiency' thing again-- and, god, what a lot
of work a coal furnace used to be. [thank goodness dad went to oil
before I was old enough to bank fires, shake clinkers and empty the
beast. I just had to carry the ashes to the driveway once they were
cool]

But, that said, I think clean burning coal *should* be where the
research money gets spent first. We've go plenty of it right here
in the USofA-- and most of it in the most economically depressed areas
of our country. Find the right way to extract and burn it- and
we're the new middle east. [us and our neighbors to the north]

Jim

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:15:41 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 05:16:16 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as
much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of
natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would
cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over
$470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas
would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

When did a BTU of NG get to be 125% the cost of a BTU of oil? Around
here NG is about 1/2 the cost. [not to mention the 'efficiency' thing]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all



You are not old enough to remember what it was like in a large
city when coal was the primary fuel are you?

I think he might be a Texan, too, so even if old enough I'm not sure
coal was a big deal in TX even 50 yrs ago. And hey- not just the
city. In my rural elementary school you could tell who still had
coal furnaces at home by the soot and smell. [and playing in the 400
cubic feet of the basement dedicated to coal storage was fun once--
the beating and long bath/scrubbing that followed took a lot of the
fun out of it]

Plus there's the whole 'efficiency' thing again-- and, god, what a lot
of work a coal furnace used to be. [thank goodness dad went to oil
before I was old enough to bank fires, shake clinkers and empty the
beast. I just had to carry the ashes to the driveway once they were
cool]

But, that said, I think clean burning coal *should* be where the
research money gets spent first. We've go plenty of it right here
in the USofA-- and most of it in the most economically depressed areas
of our country. Find the right way to extract and burn it- and
we're the new middle east. [us and our neighbors to the north]

Jim

Ditto that, with so much of the nasty stuff here, and so much electricity
generated by it's use, spend money to figure ways to burn it cleanly and
efficiently

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as
much potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of
natural gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would
cost roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over
$470 using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas
would cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all


Maybe I'd consider it if I was 30 or 30 years younger. I used to burn wood
until about 5 years ago. I find it much easier to write a check for oil than
haul all that wood and ash around. Coal is even worse with the ash ratio.

I do recall the coal bin when I was a very young kid and the ash truck that
came around once a week to empty the cans. I imagine technology has helped,
but for now I'll pass.

On Dec 27, 8:45�am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message

m...

"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as
much potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of
natural gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would
cost roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over
$470 using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas
would cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu..._r=1&pagewante....

Maybe I'd consider it if I was 30 or 30 years younger. �I used to burn wood
until about 5 years ago. I find it much easier to write a check for oil than
haul all that wood and ash around. �Coal is even worse with the ash ratio.

I do recall the coal bin when I was a very young kid and the ash truck that
came around once a week to empty the cans. �I imagine technology has helped,
but for now I'll pass.

around here coal is illegal for home heating, pittsburgh was known as
the smokey city

around here coal is illegal for home heating, pittsburgh was known as
the smokey city

HeyBub:

You will have to just trust me on this:
There is a really, *really* good reason that Pittsburgh is renowned world
wide as the best place to get medical treatment for any lung disease.
North West Indiana around Gary and over into Chicago, IL could be a very
close 2nd place.

Particulate air pollution from "soft" coal is really nasty. Few
homeowners could afford the air scrubbers and filters to make coal
heating healthy for their own family or near neighbors.

On 2008-12-27, HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania.

A key point is "near mines in Pennsylvania". A major cost of
coal is transportation. So if you are not near mines in
Pennsylvania prices are going to be a lot higher. (and in
most places in the country it is very difficult to find
retail coal nowadays).

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com

On Dec 27, 9:16�am, Phil Again wrote:
around here coal is illegal for home heating, pittsburgh was known as
the smokey city

HeyBub:

You will have to just trust me on this:
There is a really, *really* good reason that Pittsburgh is renowned world
wide as the best place to get medical treatment for any lung disease.
North West Indiana around Gary and over into Chicago, IL could be a very
close 2nd place.

Particulate air pollution from "soft" coal is really nasty. �Few
homeowners could afford the air scrubbers and filters to make coal
heating healthy for their own family or near neighbors.

people died in donora pa years ago from bad air. all at the same time
it led to airt pollution laws

Jonathan Grobe wrote:
On 2008-12-27, HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania.

A key point is "near mines in Pennsylvania". A major cost of
coal is transportation. So if you are not near mines in
Pennsylvania prices are going to be a lot higher. (and in
most places in the country it is very difficult to find
retail coal nowadays).


I live in the anthracite coal region and it is even an issue here. There
are some small mines close to me and they produce big box quality coal
that is ~ $120/ton. If you want good quality coal you need to have it
trucked in from nearby areas that are selling good coal for an
additional $40-50/ton transportation cost.

Phil Again wrote:
around here coal is illegal for home heating, pittsburgh was known as
the smokey city

HeyBub:

You will have to just trust me on this:
There is a really, *really* good reason that Pittsburgh is renowned
world wide as the best place to get medical treatment for any lung
disease. North West Indiana around Gary and over into Chicago, IL
could be a very close 2nd place.

Particulate air pollution from "soft" coal is really nasty. Few
homeowners could afford the air scrubbers and filters to make coal
heating healthy for their own family or near neighbors.

I trust you and I'm not an advocate for coal. I'm in Texas: 1) We don't have
any coal to speak of, 2) Heating is not as big a problem as it is in the
northern climes (I'm at the same latitude as Cairo), 3) We've got lots of
oil and gas, and 4) Air conditioning is a bigger issue than heating in my
neighborhood.

Still, I thought the article was interesting and might give people an idea
or two when weighing their options.

On Dec 27, 5:16*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu..._r=1&pagewante....

Of course you never lived with coal heat, I did as a kid, it was
dirty. There are places like London that had few days of sun till coal
was banned. Why do you think fish have Mercury poisoning that we cant
eat here, its from coal. If all power plants spent money for the best
technology to burn it clean it would be a bit different, didnt Bush
stop that?

Van Chocstraw wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all


I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Van Chocstraw wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about
as much potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic
feet of natural gas, according to the Energy Information
Administration. A ton of anthracite, a particularly high grade of
coal, can cost as little as $120 near mines in Pennsylvania. The
equivalent amount of heating oil would cost roughly $380, based on the
most recent prices in the state - and over $470 using prices from
December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would cost about
$480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all


I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.



I live in an area that had coal gasification used mostly for lighting.
It disappeared for very clear reasons. It was messy and inefficient and
the much better electric lighting became available.

Coal gasification is still not a great process.

On Dec 27, 9:43*am, "Pete C." wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu..._r=1&pagewante...

I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know *why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dont get out of bed today, you might fall and die.

On Dec 27, 7:43*am, "Pete C." wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu..._r=1&pagewante...

I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know *why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Pete-

Could you explain....

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe

For what it does, NG seems very safe....a lot safer than many modern
conveniences. How many latent lung cancer deaths did coal cause &
NG use eliminate?

cheers
Bob

can you cite links to these alledged stories?

s


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...


Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Pete C. wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all


I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Explosions from natural gas have to rank somewhere near plane crashes.
In other words not that frequently.

"George" wrote in message
Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Explosions from natural gas have to rank somewhere near plane crashes. In
other words not that frequently.

Exactly. Yes they do occur and when the do, it makes the national news.
Millions of homes have NG and never have a problem. I grew up with it and
I'd go back in a second if it was nearby.

Steve Barker wrote:

can you cite links to these alledged stories?

They've all been on CNN.com in the last month or two. You can search
there for "house explosion" or similar to find them.

George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu...pagewanted=all


I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Explosions from natural gas have to rank somewhere near plane crashes.
In other words not that frequently.

Just do a search on CNN.com to see all the examples in the last few
months.

On Dec 27, 11:41*am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
can you cite links to these alledged stories?

s

"Pete C." wrote in message

ster.com...





Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some old flex lines used to connect stoves are known now to not last
forever and have caused major leaks, Chicago banned that type years
ago. People used them for water heaters and who knows. Many houses
never see a maintenance man to check anything. CO detectors have saved
lives, Ng detectors are a good idea. Not unknown is having a car catch
fire when refilling gasolene in winter from static electricity. I just
fell on the ice last night, maybe I should never go out again, naw I
just found all my sheet metal screws and screwed them into my boots,
it worked great.

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


s


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...


Just do a search on CNN.com to see all the examples in the last few
months.

Steve Barker wrote:

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

Pete C. wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

"safer" is debatable, and none of them work as well. You could make a
case for a ground loop heat pump for heating if you live somewhere where
that would be practical, but nothing beats a gas water heater or stove.

nate

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

I did the search on CNN. They were in the Ukraine, a pub in Ireland, etc.
I'm not going to bother looking for statistics, but if you look at
fatalities by various sources, I think NG is way down on the list. A few
years ago we did have a house in my town get leveled though. There was a
very small leak and someone probing for it made a big gas leak that seeped
into the house. Human error caused a small problem to become a big one.

I'd still switch to gas if I could. We use propane for cooking.

On Dec 27, 10:52*am, "Pete C." wrote:
George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"Coals vary in quality, but on average, a ton of coal contains about as much
potential heat as 146 gallons of heating oil or 20,000 cubic feet of natural
gas, according to the Energy Information Administration. A ton of
anthracite, a particularly high grade of coal, can cost as little as $120
near mines in Pennsylvania. The equivalent amount of heating oil would cost
roughly $380, based on the most recent prices in the state - and over $470
using prices from December 2007. An equivalent amount of natural gas would
cost about $480 at current prices. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/bu..._r=1&pagewante...

I'll wait for the coal gasification. Coal gas is a much better fuel.
In the 1800's and early 1900's some eastern towns had public coal gas
piped right to their houses. I don't know *why they stopped it other
than the occasional explosion. Today's technology would reduce the
safety issues.

Considering that they still can't make natural gas service safe, I
certainly wouldn't want to consider yet another killer fuel piped into
unsuspecting people's homes. Seems I've seen a report of a residential
gas explosion with fatalities every few days lately.

Explosions from natural gas have to rank somewhere near plane crashes.
In other words not that frequently.

s.


Pete-

Just do a search on CNN.com to see all the examples in the last few months

so? a few incidents reported on the news does carry much weight

I would suggest that you refrain from drawing statistical relevance
from TV news reports. The TV news (well, all TV) exists to sell ad
time. Exciting news makes people watch



The data is a little hard to dig up (CDC / OSHA) but..........

my best efforts put ALL gas explosion deaths (industrial,
residential; NG, propane, industrial process gases) in the about 150
to 200 per year range in the US. Residential are a fraction of
those......

to put it in perspective there about 80 lightning deaths per year in
the US.

CO deaths (non-fire, non-explosion) from faulty NG heaters kills
another 28 per year, propane heaters (CO again) a like number.

NG is lighter than air & leaks dissipate, it ain't easy to generate
explosive concentrations (possible but not easy)

Fear not natural gas but poor eating habits, lack of exercise,
smoking, cars, ladders, bodies of water & one's crazy
associates....watch out. Faulty DNA as well......

Don't worry, be happy.

As Ransley mentioned, some old flex lines (uncoated copper, I think)
are problematic but switching to SS or coated lines greatly reduced
that small risk.

cheers
Bob

Nate Nagel wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

"safer" is debatable, and none of them work as well. You could make a
case for a ground loop heat pump for heating if you live somewhere where
that would be practical, but nothing beats a gas water heater or stove.


It's a "ground source" or "geothermal" heat pump, and they are practical
pretty much everywhere. There are several different ground loop
configurations (vertical, horizontal, trenched coil) that fit most any
site. They can readily do hot water as well. In areas of relatively
moderate temperatures, an air source heat pump is more economical.

A key thing to consider here is that high efficiency electric powered
HVAC is somewhat "future proof", and "RE friendly" as both gas and oil
are only going to get more costly, while most renewable sources like
solar PV, wind, hydro, tidal, etc. are electric sources that can power
the high efficiency heat pump.

As for the stove, gas being better only applies to cooktop burners,
electric ovens are best. On the cooktop end, it seems that induction
"burners" are becoming more popular, and they compete well with gas
burners, and are once again an electric powered source.

Right now I have a dual fuel stove, electric ovens and LP gas burners up
top. I have a combo CO/Gas detector in the vicinity, so should there be
a leak I should have enough warning to evacuate.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

I did the search on CNN. They were in the Ukraine, a pub in Ireland, etc.
I'm not going to bother looking for statistics, but if you look at
fatalities by various sources, I think NG is way down on the list. A few
years ago we did have a house in my town get leveled though. There was a
very small leak and someone probing for it made a big gas leak that seeped
into the house. Human error caused a small problem to become a big one.

I'd still switch to gas if I could. We use propane for cooking.

You didn't search very well, all that I were referring to were in the
US. I believe one was in MA, another in CA, etc. Not up to the rate of
fatal auto accidents, but far above the rate of plane crashes.

I still find it incredible that they have required smoke detectors for
years, and now CO detectors, but there are still no requirements for
residential gas detectors, even though gas detectors have been standard
equipment in RVs for years.

I have LP that fuels my cooktop only (electric ovens), and I have a
combo CO/Gas detector in the vicinity. While I like to cook on gas, I
can also cook just fine on electric and I only have it here because it
came with the house.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 06:21:34 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 27, 9:16?am, Phil Again wrote:
around here coal is illegal for home heating, pittsburgh was known as
the smokey city

HeyBub:

You will have to just trust me on this:
There is a really, *really* good reason that Pittsburgh is renowned world
wide as the best place to get medical treatment for any lung disease.
North West Indiana around Gary and over into Chicago, IL could be a very
close 2nd place.

Particulate air pollution from "soft" coal is really nasty. ?Few
homeowners could afford the air scrubbers and filters to make coal
heating healthy for their own family or near neighbors.

people died in donora pa years ago from bad air. all at the same time
it led to airt pollution laws

To learn more about the Donora, PA deaths of 1948, see:
http://www.jhu.edu/jhumag/0603web/smoke.html

See also: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08295/921526-55.stm

With regards to London's "killer fogs" of 1952, see:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...storyId=873954

Cheers,
Paul

oh please.

s

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

On Dec 27, 6:49*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

Plus there's the whole 'efficiency' thing again-- and, god, what a lot
of work a coal furnace used to be. [thank goodness dad went to oil
before I was old enough to bank fires, shake clinkers and empty the
beast. * I just had to carry the ashes to the driveway once they were
cool]

I remember this clearly as well. We used to have a small room in our
basement where the coal was stored. You didn't want to touch anything
in that room or you'd get blackened. The coalman used to come about
every month or two and he was blackend from cap to boot! Every
morning someone in our house had to go down the basement and stirr the
clinkers and fill the stoker hopper. I was only about 9 or 10 when my
Dad switched to oil. That coal storage room in the basement never
did get cleaned well. I remember that coal furnace was huge and the
ducts were at least a foot or more in diameter, it was a gravity
system with no blower.

Steve

there's another consideration..... we've only been discussing heat. HOW
THE HELL YA GONNA COOK WITHOUT GAS???


steve


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?


It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

yah and they're all junk. Most have to be disconnected because they give
false alarms constantly and run batteries down.

s


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...
even though gas detectors have been standard
equipment in RVs for years.


..

Steve Barker wrote:

there's another consideration..... we've only been discussing heat. HOW
THE HELL YA GONNA COOK WITHOUT GAS???

I've cooked many dinners, both on high end gas stoves and on old POS
cal-rod electric stoves, and all have received rave reviews from my
guests. In other words, gas is not a requirement for good cooking.

Funny, you won't find an electric burner in a resturant. Maybe an electric
grill, but never a skillet burner.

s


"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

there's another consideration..... we've only been discussing heat.
HOW
THE HELL YA GONNA COOK WITHOUT GAS???

I've cooked many dinners, both on high end gas stoves and on old POS
cal-rod electric stoves, and all have received rave reviews from my
guests. In other words, gas is not a requirement for good cooking.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:24:49 -0800 (PST), Steve
wrote:

-snip-
I remember that coal furnace was huge and the
ducts were at least a foot or more in diameter, it was a gravity
system with no blower.

Ducts? You had ducts!?g The up side on the coal furnace we had
was there were no ducts. There was a 4x4 grate in the living room
floor. There are few pleasures as great as coming in from a frigid
winter day and standing on the grate to peel off boots, snowpants,
mittens, coats, scarves. . . . and as each layer came off the snow
dropped through the grates and sizzled on the furnace below.

It was probably 120 degrees right there-- you couldn't stand it once
the winter chill was off you. but oh-h-h-h-h how good it felt. [my
room was 2 doors away on the same floor so it was about 50 there]

Jim

Steve Barker wrote:

Funny, you won't find an electric burner in a resturant. Maybe an electric
grill, but never a skillet burner.


First off, you are wrong, secondly the reason most commercial cooking
equipment is gas is for economy due to the large amount of energy use in
a restaurant and the lower cost/BTU for gas, something that isn't a
factor in residential cooking.

On Dec 27, 2:27*pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
nster.com...

Steve Barker wrote:

while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. *Gonna quit driving also?

It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.

I did the search on CNN. They were in the Ukraine, a pub in Ireland, etc.
I'm not going to bother looking for statistics, but if you look at
fatalities by various sources, I think NG is way down on the list. *A few
years ago we did have a house in my town get leveled though. *There was a
very small leak and someone probing for it made a big gas leak that seeped
into the house. *Human error caused a small problem to become a big one.

I'd still switch to gas if I could. We use propane for cooking.

You didn't search very well, all that I were referring to were in the
US. I believe one was in MA, another in CA, etc. Not up to the rate of
fatal auto accidents, but far above the rate of plane crashes.

I still find it incredible that they have required smoke detectors for
years, and now CO detectors, but there are still no requirements for
residential gas detectors, even though gas detectors have been standard
equipment in RVs for years.

I have LP that fuels my cooktop only (electric ovens), and I have a
combo CO/Gas detector in the vicinity. While I like to cook on gas, I
can also cook just fine on electric and I only have it here because it
came with the house.

Pete-

I found airplane (US commercial passenger travel) deaths for 1982
thru 2000.........
the average was 120 deaths per year. NTSB

ALL gas explosion deaths (industrial, residential; NG, propane,
industrial process gases) in the about 150 to 200 per year range in
the US.
Residential deaths are a fraction of those......

So residential NG explosion related deaths are NOT "far above the
rate of plane crashes"....they're are below if anything.

NG is a pretty safe source of energy, LP is probably less safe due to
the nature of the systems...having to sometimes make & break
connections.

The sensational nature of TV news exaggerates dangers.

cheers
Bob

Pete C. wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
while you're at it, search for auto fatalities. Gonna quit driving also?

It's a matter of practical, safer alternatives. There are few
alternatives to autos, unless you live in a big city, but there are
plenty of safer alternatives to nat gas appliances / heating.
"safer" is debatable, and none of them work as well. You could make a
case for a ground loop heat pump for heating if you live somewhere where
that would be practical, but nothing beats a gas water heater or stove.


It's a "ground source" or "geothermal" heat pump, and they are practical
pretty much everywhere. There are several different ground loop
configurations (vertical, horizontal, trenched coil) that fit most any
site. They can readily do hot water as well. In areas of relatively
moderate temperatures, an air source heat pump is more economical.

yabbut, if you, say, live in a condo, you may not have any ground to put
one in...

nate

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