I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)

"jack" wrote in message
...


So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top,

There's your answer. Solder a valve on one end, fill, close valve, then
freeze

jack wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)


Hi,
What is lowest typical temp. in winter at your cabin?

On Sat 04 Oct 2008 09:35:32p, jack told us...

I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I
filled it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically
prevented from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I
get antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the
danger really is.)

It needed to be capped on both ends, or capped on one end and a closed
valve on the other end. Under those conditions, when frozen it would have
burst.

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)

*******************************************
Date: Saturday, 10(X)/04(IV)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
5wks 2dys 2hrs
*******************************************
It is easier to fight for one's
principles than to live up to them.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
jack wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I
filled it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically
prevented from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)
Hi,
What is lowest typical temp. in winter at your cabin?

Typically about 10, though it can get down to 0 some years.

jack wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)


May take several freeze/thaw cycles to stretch to break limit.

Blattus Slafaly wrote:

jack wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)


Cap both ends and try it again.

FWIW, in 1984 I moved to West Palm Beach, FL. The incoming water line
was completely exposed for about three feet where it came up the
outside of the house. Wouldnt'cha know it, my first night there they
had a hard freeze, temp down to 22 degrees. The exposed line froze,
but did not break. Presumably, that would count as having both ends
capped.

"Richard Evans" wrote in message
...
Blattus Slafaly wrote:

jack wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I
filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically
prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I
get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)


Cap both ends and try it again.

FWIW, in 1984 I moved to West Palm Beach, FL. The incoming water line
was completely exposed for about three feet where it came up the
outside of the house. Wouldnt'cha know it, my first night there they
had a hard freeze, temp down to 22 degrees. The exposed line froze,
but did not break. Presumably, that would count as having both ends
capped.

Presumably not Water can go back into the main.

Al

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"jack" wrote in message
...


So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top,

There's your answer. Solder a valve on one end, fill, close valve, then
freeze
Sealing the top doesn't seem right. The one time I had broken pipes, they
were drained, but there was some residue left in low spots. They had plenty
of room to expand into.

I thought a better test would be to put a right angle bend on the pipe; then
fill it and let it freeze. The right angle would reduce the ice's ability
to expand, and would be pretty much like real plumbing.

4 hours at zero and it didn't do anything but freeze. It didn't even swell.

Apparently my simulation is deficient. Maybe the bottom of the L has to be
much longer?

jack wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
"jack" wrote in message
...

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top,
There's your answer. Solder a valve on one end, fill, close valve, then
freeze
Sealing the top doesn't seem right. The one time I had broken pipes, they
were drained, but there was some residue left in low spots. They had plenty
of room to expand into.

I thought a better test would be to put a right angle bend on the pipe; then
fill it and let it freeze. The right angle would reduce the ice's ability
to expand, and would be pretty much like real plumbing.

4 hours at zero and it didn't do anything but freeze. It didn't even swell.

Apparently my simulation is deficient. Maybe the bottom of the L has to be
much longer?

Was the broken/frozen piping in the house L or M? The thin wall stuff
is much more likely to burst although heavier isn't a guarantee it won't.

Clearly you must have had sufficient volume in the particular places and
a restriction sufficient for there not to be the expansion room or it
wouldn't have burst then, either.

There's also a difference in the internal roughness of new vs old pipe
that an ice column might slide a little on new pipe where the scale and
corrosion on used won't as easily. There does have to be a restriction,
though.

However, I'd guess the biggest problem in the simulation is that you're
unable to actually completely fill the volume and so there's sufficient
air volume available to compress to accomodate the phase expansion. In
a plumbing system, there is essentially no air volume in a pipe--that's
harder to do w/o the continual feed.

--

"jack" wrote in message
Sealing the top doesn't seem right. The one time I had broken pipes, they
were drained, but there was some residue left in low spots. They had
plenty of room to expand into.

I thought a better test would be to put a right angle bend on the pipe;
then fill it and let it freeze. The right angle would reduce the ice's
ability to expand, and would be pretty much like real plumbing.

4 hours at zero and it didn't do anything but freeze. It didn't even
swell.

Apparently my simulation is deficient. Maybe the bottom of the L has to
be much longer?


If you don't seal the water in some manner it will move to the outside and
not exert pressure on the tubing walls. The water in low spots of your pipe
is a different scenario of a test pipe in the freezer. At some point the
water at the ends freezes and makes a plug. Later the center freezes and
exerts pressure in all direction but since the shallow water at the ends
froze first, it can burst the tubing.

You may find this interesting too. Hot water pipes can freeze before cold
water pipes.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/440.html

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"jack" wrote in message
Sealing the top doesn't seem right. The one time I had broken pipes,
they were drained, but there was some residue left in low spots. They
had plenty of room to expand into.

I thought a better test would be to put a right angle bend on the pipe;
then fill it and let it freeze. The right angle would reduce the ice's
ability to expand, and would be pretty much like real plumbing.

4 hours at zero and it didn't do anything but freeze. It didn't even
swell.

Apparently my simulation is deficient. Maybe the bottom of the L has to
be much longer?


If you don't seal the water in some manner it will move to the outside and
not exert pressure on the tubing walls. The water in low spots of your
pipe is a different scenario of a test pipe in the freezer. At some point
the water at the ends freezes and makes a plug. Later the center freezes
and exerts pressure in all direction but since the shallow water at the
ends froze first, it can burst the tubing.

You may find this interesting too. Hot water pipes can freeze before cold
water pipes.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/440.html
Very interesting. Perhaps only a coincidence, but the two pipes I had that
burst were both hot water pipes.

It is also somewhat reassuring that 32 degrees isn't the magic number; that
it must be rather colder to get burst pipes.

Thanks.

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 10:28:49 -0700, "Big Al"
wrote:


"Richard Evans" wrote in message
.. .
Blattus Slafaly wrote:

jack wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I
filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically
prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I
get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)


Cap both ends and try it again.

FWIW, in 1984 I moved to West Palm Beach, FL. The incoming water line
was completely exposed for about three feet where it came up the
outside of the house. Wouldnt'cha know it, my first night there they
had a hard freeze, temp down to 22 degrees. The exposed line froze,
but did not break. Presumably, that would count as having both ends
capped.

Presumably not Water can go back into the main.

Yeah, I think the pressure of expanding ice is greater than the water
pressure in the main.

And I can prove it.

The pressure of expanding ice is greater than the strength of copper
water pipes, or the pipes would not burst when the water freezes.

The strength of the copper water pipes is greater than the water
pressure in the main, or the normal water pressure would cause the
water pipes to burst.

So the pressure of expanding ice is greater than the pressure in the
main.

Al

Try a longer piece of pipe, make a zig-zag out of a couple lengths and some
elbows and I'll bet you'll find that it will burst somewhere along the
length once the open end freezes solid.


"jack" wrote in message
...
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I
filled it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)

On Oct 5, 8:19�pm, "Mark" wrote:
Try a longer piece of pipe, make a zig-zag out of a couple lengths and some
elbows �and I'll bet you'll find that it will � burst somewhere along the
length once the open end freezes solid.

"jack" wrote in message

...



I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. �I
filled it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. �But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? �The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. �Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. �I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I had my main freeze once in my basement when a window fell open for
unkniown reasons.

surprisingly it did no harm, i replaced the windows latch.

I have read that all new faucets are designed to leak under the very
high pressures from frozen lines. the drip that results saves lines
from splitting. faucets dont leak till 200 PSI or something like that

"jack" wrote in message
...
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I
filled it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)
Feeze the open end first if you can and then let the rest freeeze and see
what happens
MLD

"jack" wrote in message
...
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. I filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. But 4 hours
later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? The ice expanded out the top,
so it definitely expanded. Perhaps it has to be physically prevented from
expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid draining
them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get antsy. I am
experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger really is.)


I freeze soda bottles without rupturing them just be leaving an air space at the
top. Without air in the pipe (both ends sealed) it will probably rupture or
stretch.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"jack" wrote in message
Sealing the top doesn't seem right. The one time I had broken pipes,
they were drained, but there was some residue left in low spots. They
had plenty of room to expand into.

I thought a better test would be to put a right angle bend on the pipe;
then fill it and let it freeze. The right angle would reduce the ice's
ability to expand, and would be pretty much like real plumbing.

4 hours at zero and it didn't do anything but freeze. It didn't even
swell.

Apparently my simulation is deficient. Maybe the bottom of the L has to
be much longer?


If you don't seal the water in some manner it will move to the outside and
not exert pressure on the tubing walls. The water in low spots of your
pipe is a different scenario of a test pipe in the freezer. At some point
the water at the ends freezes and makes a plug. Later the center freezes
and exerts pressure in all direction but since the shallow water at the
ends froze first, it can burst the tubing.

You may find this interesting too. Hot water pipes can freeze before cold
water pipes.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/440.html

As an aside (something probably totally irrelevant and not to do with this
discussion), I have seen and fixed LOTS of spindles in ornamental metal
railings and fences that were burst from freezing. When constructed, the
ends were not welded totally shut, and water infiltrated from somewhere. It
is amazing to look at these burst tubes, as they are burst in all places.
At the top, the bottom, in the middle, everywhere. One would think that the
water would migrate to the low point, and freeze there. Yet there are
obvious bursts in the middle of six foot sections. Maybe that's just the
point at which it started freezing after filling the tube half full. And
this was in the temperate climate of Las Vegas, and it's not that cold
there.

Point is, freeze bursting may be totally predictable and scientific and
explainable, but from my observations, it burst in some pretty weird places.

Steve

You may find this interesting too. Hot water pipes can freeze before
cold water pipes.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/440.html
Very interesting. Perhaps only a coincidence, but the two pipes I had
that burst were both hot water pipes.

Has Mythbusters ever done the experiment on which freezes first, warm water
or cold water?

Steve

SteveB wrote:
You may find this interesting too. Hot water pipes can freeze before
cold water pipes.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/440.html

Very interesting. Perhaps only a coincidence, but the two pipes I had
that burst were both hot water pipes.


Has Mythbusters ever done the experiment on which freezes first, warm water
or cold water?

Steve


http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/24493

Boden

SteveB wrote:
....
As an aside (something probably totally irrelevant and not to do with this
discussion), I have seen and fixed LOTS of spindles in ornamental metal
railings and fences that were burst from freezing. When constructed, the
ends were not welded totally shut, and water infiltrated from somewhere. It
is amazing to look at these burst tubes, as they are burst in all places.
At the top, the bottom, in the middle, everywhere. One would think that the
water would migrate to the low point, and freeze there. Yet there are
obvious bursts in the middle of six foot sections. Maybe that's just the
point at which it started freezing after filling the tube half full. And
this was in the temperate climate of Las Vegas, and it's not that cold
there.

Point is, freeze bursting may be totally predictable and scientific and
explainable, but from my observations, it burst in some pretty weird places.

If one had the local tube thickness, weld strength/lack, etc., etc.,
etc., ... as well as the water infill pattern it would undoubtedly make
more sense. Simply looking w/o analyzing all the factors would make the
cause/effect relationship difficult to pick out, no question...

--

wrote:
....
I have read that all new faucets are designed to leak under the very
high pressures from frozen lines. the drip that results saves lines
from splitting. ...

Where might that have been written, pray tell?

A faucet _might_ happen to leak some, but it surely isn't a design
feature and highly unlikely to be effective to stop the freeze bursting
of a pipe unless left open enough to have an actual water flow...

--

On Oct 6, 8:36�am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

I have read that all new faucets are designed to leak under the very
high pressures from frozen lines. the drip that results saves lines
from splitting. ...

Where might that have been written, pray tell?

A faucet _might_ happen to leak some, but it surely isn't a design
feature and highly unlikely to be effective to stop the freeze bursting
of a pipe unless left open enough to have an actual water flow...

--

a few years federal legislation was passed requiring all faucets leak
if pressure exceeeds 200 pounds or something like that.

prevents frozen pipes from splitting and in fires pipes burrsting.

the rule made the news some years ago. provided no drip at normal
pressures you would never know of the change

wrote:
....

a few years federal legislation was passed requiring all faucets leak
if pressure exceeeds 200 pounds or something like that.
....
Can you find/reference that????? Seems pretty farfetched to me...

--

dpb wrote:
wrote:
...

a few years federal legislation was passed requiring all faucets leak
if pressure exceeeds 200 pounds or something like that.
...
Can you find/reference that????? Seems pretty farfetched to me...

That is, I'm aware of some modifications requiring anti-scalding valves,
probably some updates are made periodically on relief valves, but an
ordinary plumbing isolation valve just doesn't seem right, logical or
probable...

--

On Oct 6, 10:51�am, dpb wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
...

a few years federal legislation was passed requiring all faucets leak
if pressure exceeeds 200 pounds or something like that.
...
Can you find/reference that????? �Seems pretty farfetched to me....

That is, I'm aware of some modifications requiring anti-scalding valves,
probably some updates are made periodically on relief valves, but an
ordinary plumbing isolation valve just doesn't seem right, logical or
probable...

--

sorry it was a news item cant find a link.

any spring loaded valve should provide over pressure protection, which
is built into T&P valves.

pressures from frozen pipe can reach a thousand pounds, such
protection is a good idea

wrote:
On Oct 6, 10:51�am, dpb wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
...
a few years federal legislation was passed requiring all faucets leak
if pressure exceeeds 200 pounds or something like that.
...
Can you find/reference that????? �Seems pretty farfetched to me...
That is, I'm aware of some modifications requiring anti-scalding valves,
probably some updates are made periodically on relief valves, but an
ordinary plumbing isolation valve just doesn't seem right, logical or
probable...

--

sorry it was a news item cant find a link.

any spring loaded valve should provide over pressure protection, which
is built into T&P valves.

pressures from frozen pipe can reach a thousand pounds, such
protection is a good idea

Well, given the number of ball and gate valves in use, it certainly
isn't widespread.

I still don't believe the precept of any legislation requiring this for
the stated purpose, sorry.

--

On Oct 4, 11:35*pm, "jack" wrote:
I have had burst pipes, so I know it happens.

Just as an experiment I took 8" of 1/2" copper and capped one end. *I filled
it with cold water and stuck it in my freezer.
After 30 minutes it was somewhat frozen, and solid after an hour. *But 4
hours later it hasn't burst.

So, why do some pipes burst, but not this one? *The ice expanded out the
top, so it definitely expanded. *Perhaps it has to be physically prevented
from expanding with a right angle piece at the top?

(My cottage has exposed copper pipes and no heat, and I try to avoid
draining them until necessary. When the temperature gets down there I get
antsy. *I am experimenting to get a better idea of just what the danger
really is.)

I can't find the source, but I read an article in a plumbing trade
magazine about the causes of pipes bursting in cold temperatures. The
general gist of things was that it isn't the pressure of the expanding
ice that bursts pipe, but extremely high pressure water, compressed
between two frozen sections, or against a cap or closed valve. The
idea was that the pressure could reach thousands of pounds psi. My
experience is that copper pipe tends to either blow apart solder
joists or split along long runs, while galvanized tends to crack
fittings or break at the threads, where the pipe is thinner from
threading.


JK

My
experience is that copper pipe tends to either blow apart solder
joists or split along long runs, while galvanized tends to crack
fittings or break at the threads, where the pipe is thinner from
threading.
-------------

Is copper more or less likely to break then steel. Steel is obviously
stronger, but also more brittle.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
SteveB wrote:
...
As an aside (something probably totally irrelevant and not to do with
this discussion), I have seen and fixed LOTS of spindles in ornamental
metal railings and fences that were burst from freezing. When
constructed, the ends were not welded totally shut, and water infiltrated
from somewhere. It is amazing to look at these burst tubes, as they are
burst in all places. At the top, the bottom, in the middle, everywhere.
One would think that the water would migrate to the low point, and freeze
there. Yet there are obvious bursts in the middle of six foot sections.
Maybe that's just the point at which it started freezing after filling
the tube half full. And this was in the temperate climate of Las Vegas,
and it's not that cold there.

Point is, freeze bursting may be totally predictable and scientific and
explainable, but from my observations, it burst in some pretty weird
places.

If one had the local tube thickness, weld strength/lack, etc., etc., etc.,
... as well as the water infill pattern it would undoubtedly make more
sense. Simply looking w/o analyzing all the factors would make the
cause/effect relationship difficult to pick out, no question...

You forgot the anal temperature of the inspector.

Steve