I ain't your brother.

Some hundred thousands people saw it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOg4fAX8jc4

Were they all having an illusion ?

If you manage to love those who want to harm you, then you will gain
something beyond any imagination.
Anything opposing to the above is at least suspicious (don't you agree
with that, deep in your soul?)

Keep you eyes open, for the things to come... and do not be afraid,
because your soul is untouchable.
Do not care about your mortal body. After all, it is just a matter of
time to disintegrate.
No fear, my sisters and brothers.

(After reading this, if you feel you need to do something, then send
this video-page to your friends and family. Thank you.)
And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

On Sep 17, 2:43*pm, "last.chance"
wrote:
Some hundred thousands people saw it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOg4fAX8jc4

Were they all having an illusion ?

If you manage to love those who want to harm you, then you will gain
something beyond any imagination.
Anything opposing to the above is at least suspicious (don't you agree
with that, deep in your soul?)

Keep you eyes open, for the things to come... and do not be afraid,
because your soul is untouchable.
Do not care about your mortal body. After all, it is just a matter of
time to disintegrate.
No fear, my sisters and brothers.

(After reading this, if you feel you need to do something, then send
this video-page to your friends and family. Thank you.)
And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

I find it fascinating that the first listing under their “Related
Videos” is called “Teen” and pictures what appears to be a young woman
preparing to undress.

Oh yeah – you’re saved…

On Sep 17, 2:40*pm, "SODDI" wrote:
I ain't your brother.

I just read in THE ONION that a miraculous image of Charles Darwin has
appeared on a Tennessee courthouse building wall and that
evolutionists are flocking to see it.

last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.


--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
I know some people seem to carry a world of their own, having a
grip that I envy because it seems that they create a space around
them that is very structured and believable so to speak. And that
some people seem to have the magick powers at their hands, just
because they have this... thing. What is that thing that these people
have, because I would like to have it too.

:: Currently listening to I'll Remember April, 1955, by Charles Mingus, from "The Charles Mingus Quartet + Max Roach"

On Sep 17, 12:12 pm, "Rev. Ivan Stang" wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:40 pm, "SODDI" wrote:

I ain't your brother.

I just read in THE ONION that a miraculous image of Charles Darwin has
appeared on a Tennessee courthouse building wall and that
evolutionists are flocking to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnq7N6X4x84

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. It is being proven
powerful. Check out the medical journals.

Mike Dobony wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:


last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:


And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.


Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. It is being proven
powerful. Check out the medical journals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

In article ,
Mike Dobony wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. It is being proven
powerful. Check out the medical journals.

Nope. It's just a delusion held by the weak minded.

--
Third root canal - averted.

Hip Hip Hurrah!

On Sep 17, 3:22*pm, Anim8rFSK wrote:
In article ,
*Mike Dobony wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; *imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. *It is being proven
powerful. *Check out the medical journals.

Nope. *It's just a delusion held by the weak minded.

--
Third root canal - averted.

Hip Hip Hurrah!

could 250,000 eye-witnesses all be wrong?
Absolutely. It happens every day.

I've mentioned this weirdness before. If anything would make me
convert to Catholicism, this might be it.

On Sep 17, 5:51*pm, Mike Dobony wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:
last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; *imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. *It is being proven
powerful. *Check out the medical journals.

The power of money is greater then the power of prayer! Ask any church
leader

On Sep 17, 7:19*pm, "St. Rev. Alex" wrote:
I've mentioned this weirdness before. If anything would make me
convert to Catholicism, this might be it.

I though you converted because you liked getting molested by Priests?

In article ,
Salad wrote:

Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. It is being proven
powerful. Check out the medical journals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

And I can go into Medline and (selectively) find a whole bunch of
others that show it works. Overall, though, I think the boys and girls
from the Cochrane Systematic Review got it right when looking at the
current state of the art.
"The evidence presented so far is interesting enough to justify further
study into the human aspects of the effects of prayer. However it is
impossible to prove or disprove in trials any supposed benefit that
derives from God's response to prayer."

Computer hologram generated by alien intelligence regarding the false
messiah.


"last.chance" wrote in message
...
Some hundred thousands people saw it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOg4fAX8jc4

Were they all having an illusion ?

If you manage to love those who want to harm you, then you will gain
something beyond any imagination.
Anything opposing to the above is at least suspicious (don't you agree
with that, deep in your soul?)

Keep you eyes open, for the things to come... and do not be afraid,
because your soul is untouchable.
Do not care about your mortal body. After all, it is just a matter of
time to disintegrate.
No fear, my sisters and brothers.

(After reading this, if you feel you need to do something, then send
this video-page to your friends and family. Thank you.)
And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..

On Sep 17, 2:43*pm, "last.chance"
wrote:
Some hundred thousands people saw it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOg4fAX8jc4

Were they all having an illusion ?


I don't believe in angels and demons
But I do believe in ghosts.

What's the difference between a blessing and a haunting? Not much
besides which one scares the **** out of more people.

on 9/17/2008 3:52 PM Zapanaz said the following:
last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:


And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..


Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

One religion, whose invisible man lives in the sky, says to kill anyone
who doesn't pray to him.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
in the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

In article ,
willshak wrote:
....
One religion, whose invisible man lives in the sky, says to kill anyone
who doesn't pray to him.

They all do. And, for perfectly sensible reasons, given their assumptions.

It's just that, at any given point in history, most of them lack the
political muscle to make it so. However, it is usually the case that,
at any given point in time, at least one of them does.

Christianity had its day.

Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
Salad wrote:


Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. It is being proven
powerful. Check out the medical journals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm


And I can go into Medline and (selectively) find a whole bunch of
others that show it works. Overall, though, I think the boys and girls
from the Cochrane Systematic Review got it right when looking at the
current state of the art.
"The evidence presented so far is interesting enough to justify further
study into the human aspects of the effects of prayer. However it is
impossible to prove or disprove in trials any supposed benefit that
derives from God's response to prayer."

Keep praying then. It'll make you feel better.

In article ,
Salad wrote:



Keep praying then. It'll make you feel better.

Actually I don't care, but you can think that way if it makes you
feel better.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; Thunder crashed,
last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on worldÂ’s future eventsÂ…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…
Â…..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible man
who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably find
a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article. See
if it makes any change to your outlook.



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

"willshak" wrote in message
m...
on 9/17/2008 3:52 PM Zapanaz said the following:
last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:


And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world’s future events……………………………..


Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

THREE religions, all born in the desert, all of whose invisible men live
in the sky, say to kill anyone who doesn't pray to them.

IFYPFY

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:17:02AM -0700, wrote:
[snip]
So while you're pretending there's an invisible man up in the sky to
pray to, you are also going to pretend that it is scientifically
proven, even though it's "impossible to prove or disprove".

Given the known facts about the cosmic disposition of God and prayer
in relation to everything else, the statements made above are entirely
rational, even if they do gloss over a few minor points.

Well at least your thought process is consistent, if absurd.

Not absurd, but perhaps psychotic and sociopathic. Let's not forget
`possibly suicidal' as well. In fact, you could probably win at DSM
bingo by using his Periodic Table of Psychosis card. Unfortunately,
that's just about what passes for normal around here, if you grant any
weight to the mutterings of the alt.slack political class.

It's only people like you who keep bringing these issues up again and
again. Most of us atheists have moved on from basic questions
concerning the divinity of Church icons and doctrinal matters of
faith. I can only assume that you prefer these kinds of argument
because they have the least liklihood of spurring any sort of
productive action in the world of practical undertakings.


Regards,

Steve

--
We haven't even begun yet to learn about the cosmos - we're at about
10% mark - if that. Anything more than two centuries old, are as the
musings of children in the dark. --

On Sep 17, 8:41*pm, Popess Pantiara Evokovitch
wrote:
On Sep 17, 2:43*pm, "last.chance"
wrote:

Some hundred thousands people saw it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOg4fAX8jc4

Were they all having an illusion ?

I don't believe in angels and demons
But I do believe in ghosts.

What's the difference between a blessing and a haunting? Not much
besides which one scares the **** out of more people.

Let's suppose that everyone actually saw what they say they saw. This
is just proof that ALIENS are among us. All these people are
misinterpreting what they saw as the virgin Mary because it reinforces
preconceptions that have been drilled into them for thousands of
years. Or maybe its swamp gas.

Kurt Ullman hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, Kurt Ullman laughed madly, then wrote:

In article ,
Salad wrote:

Why don't you do a study on the power of prayer. It is being proven
powerful. Check out the medical journals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

And I can go into Medline and (selectively) find a whole bunch of
others that show it works. Overall, though, I think the boys and girls
from the Cochrane Systematic Review got it right when looking at the
current state of the art.
"The evidence presented so far is interesting enough to justify further
study into the human aspects of the effects of prayer. However it is
impossible to prove or disprove in trials any supposed benefit that
derives from God's response to prayer."

So while you're pretending there's an invisible man up in the sky to
pray to, you are also going to pretend that it is scientifically
proven, even though it's "impossible to prove or disprove".

Well at least your thought process is consistent, if absurd.


--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
Date: 8 June 1982 00:39-EDT
From: "J. R. "Bob" Dobbs" DOBBS at MIT-AI
Subject: Libertarian ideologies

I consider myself to be a follower of Patriopsychotic
Anarchomaterialism. This unique political meta-ideology was first
developed by Dr. Carl E. Havermist and popularized in his book "Making
Freedom Compulsory". Since it is derived completely by means of
formal mathematical principles, Patriopsychotic Anarchomaterialism is
far more rigorous and consistent than most so-called political
theories, which must continuously resort to unreliable "real-world"
data in order to support their dubious conclusions.

Patriopsychotic Anarchomaterialists support immediate repeal of the
Second Law of Thermodynamics, forced bussing of ghetto children to L-5
colonies, the right to arm bears, redistribution of intelligence,
traditional family values, and the right to urinate in different
colors.

:: Currently listening to Il deserto dei Tartari (Le Désert Des Tartares), 2002, by Ennio Morricone, from "Itinerary Of A Genius"

Aardvark hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, Aardvark laughed madly, then wrote:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:52:21 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

last.chance hunched over a computer, typing feverishly; Thunder crashed,
last.chance laughed madly, then wrote:

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world?s future events??????????
?..

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible man
who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably find
a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going
to do your work for you.

See
if it makes any change to your outlook.

--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
"Out of the mouths of morons comes the truth."
OF COURSE I have a major development deficit
or I wouldn't be studying the problem.
The same can be said of Jesus of Nazereth... who do
you think he was for chrissakes!.. everybody else
in the world knows that was his problem... what the
fcuk took you so long to figure it out?
Maybe the next thing you'll figure out is
who the Jews are... and then you'll be right up
to speed with the rest of the Christian world...
numbfcuk....!

- George Hammond, visionary
http://geocities.com/scientific_proof_of_god

:: Currently listening to Sonata in E minor, Hob XVI.34 - II. Adagio, 1784, by Haydn, from "Haydn: 3 Piano Sonatas etc."

2cool4school filted:

Let's suppose that everyone actually saw what they say they saw. This
is just proof that ALIENS are among us. All these people are
misinterpreting what they saw as the virgin Mary because it reinforces
preconceptions that have been drilled into them for thousands of
years. Or maybe its swamp gas.

Surely it would be just as miraculous for these apparitions to appear in the
likeness of Wink Martindale, but nobody ever seems to report anything like
that....r


--
Little-known fact: About 2% of the famous
quotations credited to "Anonymous" were actually
originated by Jasper D Anonymous, a 14th-century
maker of carriage wheels.

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Salad wrote:



Keep praying then. It'll make you feel better.

Actually I don't care, but you can think that way if it makes you
feel better.


"You can sing to my cat." Wonko the Sane

On Sep 17, 5:51*pm, 2cool4school wrote:


could 250,000 eye-witnesses all be wrong?
Absolutely. *It happens every day.

Especially during political conventions.

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you can't
present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going to do
your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.

Can't you read? "If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig
around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you can't
present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going to do your
work for you."

Not "ignorant" - just sick of people who paste links instead of making their
own points.

And if you can't succinctly paraphrase Descartes' Wager, you have no
business referring to it.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you can't
present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going to do
your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

"Aardvark" wroterootered...

I Remain wilfully ignorant, then.


ifypfy

Aardvark wrote in
:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an
invisible man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the
article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not
going to do your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.




I did do a search for "Descartes' Wager", just for ****s and giggles.

Guess how many results I found?

Zero.

If you're gonna blither on about bull****, at least know what you're
talking about, and get the ****ing name right.

--
http://feitctaj.blogspot.com

Just wait until the dead babies start marching. Then you'll be eating
your words.

Aardvark hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, Aardvark laughed madly, then wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you can't
present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going to do
your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.

I've got a great reply to this, search around on Google until you find
it.

--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.

:: Currently listening to High Hopes, 1994, by Pink Floyd, from "The Division Bell"

On Sep 20, 12:49*pm, Rev Dr Feit C Taj wrote:
Aardvark wrote :





On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; *imagine an
invisible man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the
article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. *I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. *If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not
going to do your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.

I did do a search for "Descartes' Wager", just for ****s and giggles.

Guess how many results I found?

Zero.

If you're *gonna blither on about bull****, at least know what you're
talking about, and get the ****ing name right.

--http://feitctaj.blogspot.com

Just wait until the dead babies start marching. Then you'll be eating
your words.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you mean "pascal's wager" ? that does have to do with the invisible
man in the sky and why you should believe in him even if he doesn't
exist....

Sigh. OK, let's see if we can straighten a few things out...

last.chance wrote:
[some weird stuff, and then...]
And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world?s future events??????????

While the idea of prayer more for others than for ourselves is highly
commendable, in the most orthodox (as in "right-belief") sense of the
idea, prayer is meant to change us, not God's mind or the world.
Prayer is about our being more attuned to God, and therefore taking
action more in line with what he wants to see happen in the world,
'cause our perspective is a little screwed up.

In response to last.chance, Zapanaz opined:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; *imagine an invisible man
who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

First, that's where ancient cultures located him, but considering that
we understand the multiverse a little differently than our ancient
forebears did, we might say God exists in a higher dimension. What I
believe is that God exists outside of all dimensions - outside of any
sense of reality we can comprehend. It's kind of a blending of
cosmological and ontological arguments for the existence of God.

Second, God in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is not a man (nor
a woman). WE were created in the image of the Divine, not the other
way around. I think Jack Chick is one of the few who still portray God
as an old guy with a long beard and wearing a white robe. (Oh, and
Terry Gilliam, occasionally, but he also wears a crown in those
animations. And smites Sir Robin's minstrels. I think.)

Third, the point is not to ask God to fix everything we (humanity as a
whole) have screwed up, but to ask for God to teach us and work
through us to bring about healing and reconciliation and wholeness of
being and spirit to all people. That's what Jesus meant when he said
"the kingdom of God is at hand (here)": it's not some futuristic hope
but a striving at this very minute to be the best that human beings
can be. Being human should not be an excuse ("I'm only human!") it
should be an aspiration.

In reply to Zapanaz, Aardvark wrote:

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably find
a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

Um, no, you'll go hungry trying to read and digest anything on
"Descartes' Wager". However, Blaise Pascal made a wager. Try looking
that up, instead.

So then Zapanaz wrote:

No.

If you have something to say, say it. *I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. *If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going
to do your work for you.

Fair enough. Blaise Pascal was a 17th century mathematician, physicist
and philosopher. He wrote a great deal on the subject of the
irrationality of rational thought and dismantled the idea of certainty
in anything...particularly in religion.

Posthumously his rough draft of his "Apology of Christian Faith" was
organized in which he tore apart our ability to trust in our own mind.
The final argument, known as Pascal's Wager, is if everything is
uncertain, than belief in God cannot be proven, which means belief is
a choice that should be made on what is more beneficial, what has the
better outcome...for Pascal, the choice is what will give a person the
most happiness.

He argued if you don't believe in God and God doesn't exist, you lose
nothing, obviously. If you believe in God and God doesn't exist, again
you lose nothing: you will be no worse off than if you didn't believe
in God. If you believe in God and God does exist, you win. If you
don't believe in God and God does exist, you lose because you will not
have gained "happiness"... what Christians call "the peace that
transcends all comprehension".

I hesitate to critique such an amazing mind as Pascal, however I find
two problems with the Wager. The first is the dualistic nature of it:
that there is a God or there is nothing, but it neglects the idea that
a DIFFERENT God/god might exist. The odds of the "wager" change
considerably if there are multiple outcomes.

Second, I believe Pascal's wager neglects the concept that the
Christian "Final Judgment" could work both ways: that not only will
God determine how well we have used what we have been given for the
benefit of humanity, but that all humans will have a chance to judge
one last time what it is God has done for them and decide whether they
will believe in God at last. Those who do not believe would have one
last chance at belief...it would still be their choice, but they would
also be free to choose not to "bow the knee" and take oblivion as the
alternative. But Pascal's Wager - at least in my small understanding -
doesn't allow for that.

Hope this helps!

On Sep 22, 2:16*pm, Kyle wrote:
Sigh. OK, let's see if we can straighten a few things out...

last.chance wrote:

[some weird stuff, and then...]

And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world?s future events??????????

While the idea of prayer more for others than for ourselves is highly
commendable, in the most orthodox (as in "right-belief") sense of the
idea, prayer is meant to change us, not God's mind or the world.
Prayer is about our being more attuned to God, and therefore taking
action more in line with what he wants to see happen in the world,
'cause our perspective is a little screwed up.

In response to last.chance, Zapanaz opined:



Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; *imagine an invisible man
who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

First, that's where ancient cultures located him, but considering that
we understand the multiverse a little differently than our ancient
forebears did, we might say God exists in a higher dimension. What I
believe is that God exists outside of all dimensions - outside of any
sense of reality we can comprehend. It's kind of a blending of
cosmological and ontological arguments for the existence of God.

Second, God in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is not a man (nor
a woman). WE were created in the image of the Divine, not the other
way around. I think Jack Chick is one of the few who still portray God
as an old guy with a long beard and wearing a white robe. (Oh, and
Terry Gilliam, occasionally, but he also wears a crown in those
animations. And smites Sir Robin's minstrels. I think.)

Third, the point is not to ask God to fix everything we (humanity as a
whole) have screwed up, but to ask for God to teach us and work
through us to bring about healing and reconciliation and wholeness of
being and spirit to all people. That's what Jesus meant when he said
"the kingdom of God is at hand (here)": it's not some futuristic hope
but a striving at this very minute to be the best that human beings
can be. Being human should not be an excuse ("I'm only human!") it
should be an aspiration.

In reply to Zapanaz, Aardvark wrote:



Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably find
a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

Um, no, you'll go hungry trying to read and digest anything on
"Descartes' Wager". However, Blaise Pascal made a wager. Try looking
that up, instead.

So then Zapanaz wrote:

No.

If you have something to say, say it. *I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. *If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going
to do your work for you.

Fair enough. Blaise Pascal was a 17th century mathematician, physicist
and philosopher. He wrote a great deal on the subject of the
irrationality of rational thought and dismantled the idea of certainty
in anything...particularly in religion.

Posthumously his rough draft of his "Apology of Christian Faith" was
organized in which he tore apart our ability to trust in our own mind.
The final argument, known as Pascal's Wager, is if everything is
uncertain, than belief in God cannot be proven, which means belief is
a choice that should be made on what is more beneficial, what has the
better outcome...for Pascal, the choice is what will give a person the
most happiness.

He argued if you don't believe in God and God doesn't exist, you lose
nothing, obviously. If you believe in God and God doesn't exist, again
you lose nothing: you will be no worse off than if you didn't believe
in God. If you believe in God and God does exist, you win. If you
don't believe in God and God does exist, you lose because you will not
have gained "happiness"... what Christians call "the peace that
transcends all comprehension".

I hesitate to critique such an amazing mind as Pascal, however I find
two problems with the Wager. The first is the dualistic nature of it:
that there is a God or there is nothing, but it neglects the idea that
a DIFFERENT God/god might exist. The odds of the "wager" change
considerably if there are multiple outcomes.

Second, I believe Pascal's wager neglects the concept that the
Christian "Final Judgment" could work both ways: that not only will
God determine how well we have used what we have been given for the
benefit of humanity, but that all humans will have a chance to judge
one last time what it is God has done for them and decide whether they
will believe in God at last. Those who do not believe would have one
last chance at belief...it would still be their choice, but they would
also be free to choose not to "bow the knee" and take oblivion as the
alternative. But Pascal's Wager - at least in my small understanding -
doesn't allow for that.

Hope this helps!

oh it does it does

Kyle hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
Thunder crashed, Kyle laughed madly, then wrote:

Sigh. OK, let's see if we can straighten a few things out...

last.chance wrote:
[some weird stuff, and then...]
And please, pray-pray-pray for friends and enemies as well. If we only
knew the help of our prayer on world?s future events??????????

While the idea of prayer more for others than for ourselves is highly
commendable, in the most orthodox (as in "right-belief") sense of the
idea, prayer is meant to change us, not God's mind or the world.
Prayer is about our being more attuned to God, and therefore taking
action more in line with what he wants to see happen in the world,
'cause our perspective is a little screwed up.

In response to last.chance, Zapanaz opined:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; *imagine an invisible man
who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

First, that's where ancient cultures located him, but considering that
we understand the multiverse a little differently than our ancient
forebears did, we might say God exists in a higher dimension. What I
believe is that God exists outside of all dimensions - outside of any
sense of reality we can comprehend. It's kind of a blending of
cosmological and ontological arguments for the existence of God.

Second, God in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is not a man (nor
a woman). WE were created in the image of the Divine, not the other
way around. I think Jack Chick is one of the few who still portray God
as an old guy with a long beard and wearing a white robe. (Oh, and
Terry Gilliam, occasionally, but he also wears a crown in those
animations. And smites Sir Robin's minstrels. I think.)

Third, the point is not to ask God to fix everything we (humanity as a
whole) have screwed up, but to ask for God to teach us and work
through us to bring about healing and reconciliation and wholeness of
being and spirit to all people. That's what Jesus meant when he said
"the kingdom of God is at hand (here)": it's not some futuristic hope
but a striving at this very minute to be the best that human beings
can be. Being human should not be an excuse ("I'm only human!") it
should be an aspiration.


That's dandy; try that definition of God on a typical Christian.
They will condemn you for being a new-ager.

In reply to Zapanaz, Aardvark wrote:

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably find
a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the article.

Um, no, you'll go hungry trying to read and digest anything on
"Descartes' Wager". However, Blaise Pascal made a wager. Try looking
that up, instead.

So then Zapanaz wrote:

No.

If you have something to say, say it. *I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. *If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going
to do your work for you.

Fair enough. Blaise Pascal was a 17th century mathematician, physicist
and philosopher. He wrote a great deal on the subject of the
irrationality of rational thought and dismantled the idea of certainty
in anything...particularly in religion.

Posthumously his rough draft of his "Apology of Christian Faith" was
organized in which he tore apart our ability to trust in our own mind.
The final argument, known as Pascal's Wager, is if everything is
uncertain, than belief in God cannot be proven, which means belief is
a choice that should be made on what is more beneficial, what has the
better outcome...for Pascal, the choice is what will give a person the
most happiness.

He argued if you don't believe in God and God doesn't exist, you lose
nothing, obviously. If you believe in God and God doesn't exist, again
you lose nothing: you will be no worse off than if you didn't believe
in God. If you believe in God and God does exist, you win. If you
don't believe in God and God does exist, you lose because you will not
have gained "happiness"... what Christians call "the peace that
transcends all comprehension".

I hesitate to critique such an amazing mind as Pascal, however I find
two problems with the Wager. The first is the dualistic nature of it:
that there is a God or there is nothing, but it neglects the idea that
a DIFFERENT God/god might exist. The odds of the "wager" change
considerably if there are multiple outcomes.


Yeah that seemed obvious to me.

By the same logic, you should worship the Flying Spaghetti monster.

In fact, by that logic, you are actually better off worshipping "Bob"
and the Church of the SubGenius.

Here's the Pascal's version:
God Exists | God Doesn't Exist
Believe in God + infinity | + 0
Don't believe in God - infinity (go to hell) | + 0

Now the Church of the SubGenius offers gaurantees eternal salvation,
or you get TRIPLE your money back, so the SubGenius version is:


"Bob" Exists | "Bob" Doesn't Exist
Believe in "Bob" + infinity | + 90 dollars
Don't believe in "Bob" - infinity (go to hell) | + 0

So you actually come out ahead with the Church of the SubGenius.

Second, I believe Pascal's wager neglects the concept that the
Christian "Final Judgment" could work both ways: that not only will
God determine how well we have used what we have been given for the
benefit of humanity, but that all humans will have a chance to judge
one last time what it is God has done for them and decide whether they
will believe in God at last. Those who do not believe would have one
last chance at belief...it would still be their choice, but they would
also be free to choose not to "bow the knee" and take oblivion as the
alternative. But Pascal's Wager - at least in my small understanding -
doesn't allow for that.

Hope this helps!

Another problem that seems obvious to me, the "Believe in God" option
of Pascal's wager requires you to adopt and live by Christian
morality. (Or Muslim or Jewish, but let's not even go there.)

And he weights this as being + 0, whether you do so or not. But I
don't accept that, living by Christian morality involves accepting
things that I don't accept. Of course, it depends on whose version of
Christian morality you are talking about, but at least by some
versions I see around me, this means bombing abortion clinics and
rejecting the theory of evolution in favor of a fairy tale.

Those are a couple of extreme examples, I could make a longer list,
but I don't want to belabor the point.

Of course, then some would argue, "well, THOSE aren't part of
Christianity as -I- know it."

But that's another problem, of course. It certainly is "believing in
God" as some people, quite a lot of them, know it.

So besides not really knowing what "believing in God" exactly means in
the wager, you have a lot of different possibilities. And, most of
these different sects of Christianity believe that all of the other
sects are not doing it right, and will go to hell.

So in fact, in the "believe in God" branch of Pascal's wager, you
really only have a slim chance that you are doing it right.

--
Zapanaz
International Satanic Conspiracy
Customer Support Specialist
http://joecosby.com/
The world is run by rich people on the rare occasions that it's "run"
at all. Generally it runs itself because people are so good at
building good stout cages for themselves. The only way to "beat" the
rich is to either get very VERY rich yourself or to drop out of the
game totally. I don't personally know anybody who's done either. I
know plenty of people who like to say they've dropped out, but they're
all still at the mercy of rich people. They just haven't been noticed
yet because they've successsfully hunkered down and haven't really
fought back. I probably fall into that category myself. I certainly
hope so. Not much one can do in prison but jack off and write memoirs.
Come to think of it, that's about all most people do even when they're
NOT in prison. All Is Vanity.

- Rev. Ivan Stang

:: Currently listening to Shelter From The Storm, 1974, by Bob Dylan, from "The Essential Bob Dylan"

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:49:46 -0500, Rev Dr Feit C Taj wrote:

Aardvark wrote in
:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the
article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not going
to do your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.




I did do a search for "Descartes' Wager", just for ****s and giggles.

Guess how many results I found?

Zero.

If you're gonna blither on about bull****, at least know what you're
talking about, and get the ****ing name right.

Oops! My mistake. It was Pascal's Wager. I have no idea why Descartes
sprung to mind as I was typing.

The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Once again, sorry for the confusion.



--
Liverpool. European City Of Culture 2008
http://www.liverpool08.com

Aardvark wrote in news:hL3Dk.182913$b12.17303
@newsfe17.ams2:

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:49:46 -0500, Rev Dr Feit C Taj wrote:

Aardvark wrote in
:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:22:18 -0700, Zapanaz wrote:

Yes, that's how to solve the world's problems; imagine an
invisible
man who lives in the sky, then ask him to fix them.

Go to Google and do a search for 'Descartes' Wager'. You'll probably
find a Wikipedia article about the subject. Read and digest the
article.

No.

If you have something to say, say it. I'm not going to dig around
on
Google and Wikipedia, trying to guess what your point is. If you
can't present the concept the wager represents yourself, I'm not
going
to do your work for you.

Remain wilfully ignorant, then.




I did do a search for "Descartes' Wager", just for ****s and giggles.

Guess how many results I found?

Zero.

If you're gonna blither on about bull****, at least know what you're
talking about, and get the ****ing name right.

Oops! My mistake. It was Pascal's Wager. I have no idea why Descartes
sprung to mind as I was typing.

The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Once again, sorry for the confusion.




Yes, and as you can see, no one here has given a rat's cooter about the
subject in several days.

You may now return your head safely and firmly up your ass again.

--
http://feitctaj.blogspot.com

Just wait until the dead babies start marching. Then you'll be eating
your words.