I've got 5 rental houses all which are about 100 years old. You don't have
to tell me about real world. 3 of them i've rewired myself and 2 have been
replumbed. I've NEVER taken more than an hour to install cutoffs and a new
faucet. I'd dare someone to show me one I'd take more than an hour and a
half on.


Also, the price of gas has no bearing on this thread.

s


"Bubba" wrote in message
...

Obviously you and Tony Hwang dont have a clue. Maybe get out in the
world once in a while and look at the price of things lately. Have you
noticed gasoline is well above $3.00 a gallon? No, I didnt think so.
Start your own service/installation business and come back here in 6
months and tell me how well you ARENT doing charging $40hr.
Bubba

On Mar 22, 12:43*pm, "Zyp" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:02 am, Steve Kraus
wrote:
Here's Mom's new kitchen faucet:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...un/faucet1.jpg

It's an American Standard. Existing sink, no change in configuration
or anything. She needs a new backsplash but I digress. I bought the
faucet online and Mom called a plumbing company to install it.

Here's underneath:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...un/faucet2.jpg

Previously it was copper all the way up. No flexes and perviously
there were no shutoffs. So the new installation included those
shutoffs and the chrome plated lines you see. Quality of the
installation workmanship seems fine.

Is $482.00 a fair price for this install (including the shutoffs and
short bits of tubing)?

Parts and labor are not broken out but the invoice says $336.00 for
the faucet installation and $146.00 for the shutoff valve
installation. Was this fair or did a senior get taken taken to the
proverbial cleaners? I am aware that skilled labor and a truck and
shop filled with parts don't come cheap but it seems outrageous to
me but then maybe I am just out of touch.

This is suburban Chicago if it matters.

$146 for the shutoff install - Are they platinum?

As far as I can tell from the pictures, he cut the copper pipes and
installed the shutoffs and then the risers (the fill tubes)Since the
copper pipe is bigger than the riser he would have had to install
adaptors anyway - exact same labor as installing the shutoffs. So in
reality, the only extra Mom should have paid for is the cost of the
shutoffs themselves.

Unless they are made of platinum, or are perhaps remote controlled, I
can't imagine 2 shutoffs costing $146. You can buy shutoffs *and*
risers as a set for under $20 and there should have been no additional
labor cost for the install.

$336 for the faucet install - - *$482 total

As noted above, the risers and shutoffs are really cheap. - we're
talking maybe $60 for all parts. OK, let's call it $82 to make the
math easy. *That means he charged at least $400 for labor.

How long was he there? Was he in and out in an hour or did he have to
remove Mom's knick-knacks from the back of the sink and the dishwasher
soap, sponges and plastic grocery bags from underneath? Time is money,
so if he had to waste time doing things other than plumbing, he
wouldn't have done it for free.

All that said, if it was as simple a job as it appears it should have
been, Mom was taken advantage of and it's time to make some phone
calls.

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. *Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. [Figure there's 2,000
working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to earn millions a year.] * But
it's easier to bitch about a hard working plumber who not only has a shop to
support but a family as well.

--
Zyp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks. As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.

On Mar 24, 1:11*pm, Molly Brown wrote:
On Mar 22, 12:43*pm, "Zyp" wrote:





DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:02 am, Steve Kraus
wrote:
Here's Mom's new kitchen faucet:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...un/faucet1.jpg

It's an American Standard. Existing sink, no change in configuration
or anything. She needs a new backsplash but I digress. I bought the
faucet online and Mom called a plumbing company to install it.

Here's underneath:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...un/faucet2.jpg

Previously it was copper all the way up. No flexes and perviously
there were no shutoffs. So the new installation included those
shutoffs and the chrome plated lines you see. Quality of the
installation workmanship seems fine.

Is $482.00 a fair price for this install (including the shutoffs and
short bits of tubing)?

Parts and labor are not broken out but the invoice says $336.00 for
the faucet installation and $146.00 for the shutoff valve
installation. Was this fair or did a senior get taken taken to the
proverbial cleaners? I am aware that skilled labor and a truck and
shop filled with parts don't come cheap but it seems outrageous to
me but then maybe I am just out of touch.

This is suburban Chicago if it matters.

$146 for the shutoff install - Are they platinum?

As far as I can tell from the pictures, he cut the copper pipes and
installed the shutoffs and then the risers (the fill tubes)Since the
copper pipe is bigger than the riser he would have had to install
adaptors anyway - exact same labor as installing the shutoffs. So in
reality, the only extra Mom should have paid for is the cost of the
shutoffs themselves.

Unless they are made of platinum, or are perhaps remote controlled, I
can't imagine 2 shutoffs costing $146. You can buy shutoffs *and*
risers as a set for under $20 and there should have been no additional
labor cost for the install.

$336 for the faucet install - - *$482 total

As noted above, the risers and shutoffs are really cheap. - we're
talking maybe $60 for all parts. OK, let's call it $82 to make the
math easy. *That means he charged at least $400 for labor.

How long was he there? Was he in and out in an hour or did he have to
remove Mom's knick-knacks from the back of the sink and the dishwasher
soap, sponges and plastic grocery bags from underneath? Time is money,
so if he had to waste time doing things other than plumbing, he
wouldn't have done it for free.

All that said, if it was as simple a job as it appears it should have
been, Mom was taken advantage of and it's time to make some phone
calls.

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. *Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. [Figure there's 2,000
working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to earn millions a year.] * But
it's easier to bitch about a hard working plumber who not only has a shop to
support but a family as well.

--
Zyp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks. As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks

Just curious: What are you invested in?

"Molly Brown" wrote in message
...

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. [Figure there's
2,000
working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to earn millions a year.] But
it's easier to bitch about a hard working plumber who not only has a shop
to
support but a family as well.

--
Zyp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks. As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.

=======================

What does owning stocks have to do with the fact that some CEOs make
outrageous salaries?

"JoeSpareBedroom" writes:

"Molly Brown" wrote in message
...

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. [Figure there's
2,000
working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to earn millions a year.] But
it's easier to bitch about a hard working plumber who not only has a shop
to
support but a family as well.

--
Zyp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks. As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.

=======================

What does owning stocks have to do with the fact that some CEOs make
outrageous salaries?

In my opinion, a lot.

I own some stocks, and one of the criteria I use
is "what do they pay the CEO".

A stock I would not buy for that reason Comcast.

A company that passes the test LIFC.

Sure there are lots of other more important issues
but CEO pay reflects how the company feels about it's
share holders.

"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...
"JoeSpareBedroom" writes:

"Molly Brown" wrote in message
...

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. [Figure there's
2,000
working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to earn millions a year.] But
it's easier to bitch about a hard working plumber who not only has a
shop
to
support but a family as well.

--
Zyp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks. As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.

=======================

What does owning stocks have to do with the fact that some CEOs make
outrageous salaries?

In my opinion, a lot.

I own some stocks, and one of the criteria I use
is "what do they pay the CEO".

A stock I would not buy for that reason Comcast.

A company that passes the test LIFC.

Sure there are lots of other more important issues
but CEO pay reflects how the company feels about it's
share holders.


OK, but she said she owns NONE, as if to say that all public companies have
overpaid CEOs. That's obviously false.

On Mar 24, 1:37*pm, Dan Espen
wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" writes:
"Molly Brown" wrote in message
...

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. [Figure there's
2,000
working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to earn millions a year.] But
it's easier to bitch about a hard working plumber who not only has a shop
to
support but a family as well.

--
Zyp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks. As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.

=======================

What does owning stocks have to do with the fact that some CEOs make
outrageous salaries?

In my opinion, a lot.

I own some stocks, and one of the criteria I use
is "what do they pay the CEO".

A stock I would not buy for that reason Comcast.

A company that passes the test LIFC.

Sure there are lots of other more important issues
but CEO pay reflects how the company feels about it's
share holders.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gee...I wonder if the performance of those 2 positions had anything to
do with your decision. g

If CMCSA had 1, 3 and 5 year returns similiar LIFC, how much would the
CEO's salary factor into the discussion?

Molly Brown wrote:
On Mar 22, 12:43 pm, "Zyp" wrote:
....
Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high costs
associated with oil production executives. Why or how would anyone in a
years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me. ...

Well, considering they're operating corporations larger than most
countries' GNP's, the amount of their compensation is actually pretty
miniscule in comparison. And, at that level, there's quite a lot of
competition as well.

Michael J used to pull down $40M in just endorsements, outside his NBA
salary. Those hiring him certainly thought they were getting their
money's worth. Tiger may win $2M or more for a week on the golf course
and I've not even looked at his endorsements. There are lots of reasons
for folks making the salaries they do; most having to do w/ the
perceived value provided by those who set those salaries.

A few abuses don't negate the generality.

That's exactly why I don't own any stocks.

And that's a _VERY_ shortsighted (and self-defeating) viewpoint to take
as it is in all likelihood limiting your ability to realize growth
potential.

...As for using gasoline, I
wouldn't even go out if I didn't have to go to work.

You participating in a 401K plan there? If not (unless one isn't
available), you're missing out. If so, unless you're completely into a
money market or bond portfolio (which is undoubtedly not a wise
position, either) you more than likely have mutual funds which in all
likelihood own oil stocks as well as many others.

--

Zyp wrote:

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high
costs associated with oil production executives. Why or how would
anyone in a years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me.
[Figure there's 2,000 working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to
earn millions a year.] But it's easier to bitch about a hard
working plumber who not only has a shop to support but a family as
well.

Your observation generates several questions:

First, why should what someone else makes be of any concern to you?

Second, you admit that the rationale for an oil executive's salary is
"beyond you" which may explain why an oil executive's salary is (probably)
substantially higher than yours - he knows why.

Third, whether the hard-working plumber has a family is irrelevant. People
get paid for the value of the services rendered, or at least they should.
**** like minimum wage and union scale keep getting the way.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Zyp wrote:

Quite frankly what you folks *should* complain about are the high
costs associated with oil production executives. Why or how would
anyone in a years' time be worth millions of dollars is beyond me.
[Figure there's 2,000 working hours at best in a year, for a CEO to
earn millions a year.] But it's easier to bitch about a hard
working plumber who not only has a shop to support but a family as
well.

Your observation generates several questions:

First, why should what someone else makes be of any concern to you?

Second, you admit that the rationale for an oil executive's salary is
"beyond you" which may explain why an oil executive's salary is (probably)
substantially higher than yours - he knows why.

Third, whether the hard-working plumber has a family is irrelevant. People
get paid for the value of the services rendered, or at least they should.
**** like minimum wage and union scale keep getting the way.



True, but there ARE people who charge a lot more than anyone else, and yet
they can't explain why. There has to be a reason that makes the customer
willing to pay a high price. Facts, features, benefits. If the plumber can't
give you any, why pay $600 when you can pay $350, and probably get the same
work?

I got several roof estimates. One was around 2K, most were around 5K, and
one guy was just over 9K. Most were using the exact same materials. I called
the 9K guy and asked him "Convince me. What's worth 4K more?" He couldn't. I
went with one of the 5K contractors. (The 2K guy was simply out of his
mind)

On Mar 24, 6:09*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:14:50 -0500, "S. Barker"

wrote:
I've got 5 rental houses all which are about 100 years old. *You don't have
to tell me about real world. *3 of them i've rewired myself and 2 have been
replumbed. *I've NEVER taken more than an hour to install cutoffs and a new
faucet. *I'd dare someone to show me one I'd take more than an hour and a
half on.

Hmmmm. Your story gets interesting now. You have 5 rentals which it
appears you are quite versed in doing plumbing repairs including shut
offs, wiring, etc.............HOWEVER, you leave your poor old mom to
the wolves of the plumbing industry to "rape" her through the
pocketbook.
What kind of sun-of-a-bitch son are you? You wont save your mom a few
bucks and go put in a simple 1 hr faucet (as you say) but you will but
it for her (online with her money, Im sure) and then leave her to deal
with the contractors. You are one sorry excuse for a human.

Also, the price of gas has no bearing on this thread.

Nothing you say? What the hell do you think happens to the price of
almost everything when the price of gasoline keeps going up?
Think real hard.
Bubba



s

"Bubba" wrote in message
.. .

Obviously you and Tony Hwang dont have a clue. Maybe get out in the
world once in a while and look at the price of things lately. Have you
noticed gasoline is well above $3.00 a gallon? No, I didnt think so.
Start your own service/installation business and come back here in 6
months and tell me how well you ARENT doing charging $40hr.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This should be fun to watch...

Steve Kraus asked about the cost of his Mom's faucet installation.

S. Barker said he has 5 rental units.

Bubba called S. Barker a "sun-of-a-bitch son" and "one sorry excuse
for a human".

Stay tuned...

Ummmmmm... HELLOOOOOOOO. I was not the original poster..... My mom's
dead, thank you.

s


"Bubba" wrote in message
...


Hmmmm. Your story gets interesting now. You have 5 rentals which it
appears you are quite versed in doing plumbing repairs including shut
offs, wiring, etc.............HOWEVER, you leave your poor old mom to
the wolves of the plumbing industry to "rape" her through the
pocketbook.
What kind of sun-of-a-bitch son are you? You wont save your mom a few
bucks and go put in a simple 1 hr faucet (as you say) but you will but
it for her (online with her money, Im sure) and then leave her to deal
with the contractors. You are one sorry excuse for a human.

Also, the price of gas has no bearing on this thread.

Nothing you say? What the hell do you think happens to the price of
almost everything when the price of gasoline keeps going up?
Think real hard.
Bubba
s


"Bubba" wrote in message
. ..

Obviously you and Tony Hwang dont have a clue. Maybe get out in the
world once in a while and look at the price of things lately. Have you
noticed gasoline is well above $3.00 a gallon? No, I didnt think so.
Start your own service/installation business and come back here in 6
months and tell me how well you ARENT doing charging $40hr.
Bubba

I just consider the source. You know..... sticks and stones....


s



"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...

This should be fun to watch...

Steve Kraus asked about the cost of his Mom's faucet installation.

S. Barker said he has 5 rental units.

Bubba called S. Barker a "sun-of-a-bitch son" and "one sorry excuse
for a human".

Stay tuned...

First you said: No, not for what should have been a trivial job.
Then you said: Clearly yes.
Which is it?

What don't you understand? One was the policy that was followed. The
other represents what should have been done, in retrospect.

Piece together some of the other things mentioned in this thread:

Mentioned by whom? Me? No.

- No main shutoff in the house

I never said any such thing. There's a shut off about 10' away next to
the water meter. Open a closet and turn a valve.

- Non-standard installation of the current fixtures

What was non standard about it? No shutoffs? Millions of homes were
built without individual shutoffs under each sink or toilet. It's a
convenience to have them but hardly a necessity. Ditto flexes. That's a
more recent thing.

- A mess above and below the sink

Huh? Where are you getting that from?


- Location of plumbing that makes access time consuming
- etc. etc.

Huh? It's a kitchen with ordinary cabinets and two large doors leading
to the area under the sink. Piping as shown in the photo. I don't see
anything special about the access.

Please confine your comments to my description and the photos not
fictions suggested by others.

In plumbing, as with many other repair jobs, the expectation of a
"trivial job" is a dangerous assumption and should be inquired about
upfront.

Yes, apparently so. But I'll still consider this a trivial job unless
someone makes a convincing argument why it wasn't. Maybe not as trivial
as if there were flexible connections but if it were that easy we
wouldn't have decided to leave it to a pro.

In plumbing, as with many other repair jobs, the expectation of a
"trivial job" is a dangerous assumption and should be inquired about
upfront.

Yes, apparently so. But I'll still consider this a trivial job unless
someone makes a convincing argument why it wasn't. Maybe not as trivial
as if there were flexible connections but if it were that easy we
wouldn't have decided to leave it to a pro.

Would you please stop your complaining. What did you think it would
cost? According
to the pictures you have a 4 piece set that had to be connected with
the sink in place. You
try it. Also according to your pictures all the drain lines are
directly in the way so this guy had
to weave in and out of this mess. We also haven't heard how much
trouble the old faucet
was to get out. Lets face it, you replaced it for a reason. It's been
on there for quite a while
just rotting away. Think about having to remove a weathered screw that
looks simple but has
been rusted on for years but takes forever and a half can of wd-40.
Now multiply that by 4 and
in the tight cabinet, upside down with minimal lighting, on your back
with water dripping on your
face. You try it. If you really have a problem with it, contact the
plumber and ask him. No one here
knows where this is, a small town in ohio or the middle of NY city.
Also, why aren't you taking care of
it instead of leaving it to your mother? You should be making the
appointments and meeting the plumber.
It sounds to me that your lucky she actually got a plumber and not
someone casing the house. Quit your
griping and start taking care of your senior citizen mother.
Lou

According to the pictures you have a 4 piece set that had to
be connected with the sink in place.

No, it's one piece. Yes, you have to put the knobs on and the spout and
spray attachment but the basic unit is one piece like most. It's not
individual valves with connecting lines.

Also according to your pictures all the drain lines are
directly in the way so this guy had
to weave in and out of this mess.

Wow you got me there. The drain lines are in the way? Aren't they in the
way of each and every single sink and many/most double sinks?

and in the tight cabinet, upside down with minimal lighting, on
your back with water dripping on your
face. You try it.

What you are describing sounds like ordinary kitchen faucet replacement.
Which others have said goes for maybe 150-250. You're grasping at excuses
for pure and simple price gouging.

No one here knows where this is, a small town in ohio or
the middle of NY city.

Actually, everyone else besides you knows. Had you read my posting I
indicated it was suburban Chicago.

On Mar 26, 2:14 am, Steve Kraus
wrote:
First you said: No, not for what should have been a trivial job.
Then you said: Clearly yes.
Which is it?

What don't you understand? One was the policy that was followed. The
other represents what should have been done, in retrospect.

Piece together some of the other things mentioned in this thread:

Mentioned by whom? Me? No.

- No main shutoff in the house

I never said any such thing. There's a shut off about 10' away next to
the water meter. Open a closet and turn a valve.

- Non-standard installation of the current fixtures

What was non standard about it? No shutoffs? Millions of homes were
built without individual shutoffs under each sink or toilet. It's a
convenience to have them but hardly a necessity. Ditto flexes. That's a
more recent thing.

- A mess above and below the sink

Huh? Where are you getting that from?

- Location of plumbing that makes access time consuming
- etc. etc.

Huh? It's a kitchen with ordinary cabinets and two large doors leading
to the area under the sink. Piping as shown in the photo. I don't see
anything special about the access.

Please confine your comments to my description and the photos not
fictions suggested by others.

In plumbing, as with many other repair jobs, the expectation of a
"trivial job" is a dangerous assumption and should be inquired about
upfront.

Yes, apparently so. But I'll still consider this a trivial job unless
someone makes a convincing argument why it wasn't. Maybe not as trivial
as if there were flexible connections but if it were that easy we
wouldn't have decided to leave it to a pro.

It's appears that you have some trouble understanding hypotheticals. I
really shouldn't waste my time explaining the post that you dissected
so completely, but since I think it will help you, I will.

My post was not about whether or not this was a trivial job. It was
all about the fact that you did not get an estimate before you/your
Mom allowed the contractor to begin work. It was all about the reasons
why you *always* get an estimate before work begins. I'm not talking
about 3 estimates, toss the lowest, get references, etc. I'm talking
about. "Hey, what's this going to cost me and what factors might
increase the cost."

In the same post you said it was a trivial job that shouldn't have
required a estimate, and then you finished with "Clearly Yes" it
required a estimate. In other words, you basically taught yourself a
good lesson: What appears to be a trivial job, and may in fact *be* a
trivial job, stills requires a discussion before any tools are put to
use. Once you allow a contractor - an unknown contractor especially -
to begin work without a clear understanding of the cost (or possible
costs) of the job, you have opened yourself to one of 2 things:

Best Case: The job is not as trivial as you thought and parts and
labor will be more than you expected.

Worst case: You opened your checkbook to an unscrupulous contractor
who sees a green light to rip you off.

Now, let's discuss the Best Case - remember, we're talking about why
you should always get an estimate, not about your Mom's sink.

All I did was list a few of the items that other people mentioned in
their posts as possible reasons why a faucet install could become a
non-trivial job - in other words, the reasons why an estimate is
required in every case. You/your Mom look at the sink/faucet and say
"Hey, that's an hour's worth of work." A contractor looks at the same
job and sees limited access to the pipes he has to cut/sweat, no main
shutoff, etc. I never said your situation had any of those factors
because my post was not about your situation - once again, it was
about why a person should get an estimate before work begins.

Unfortunately, in your case, the job, as trivial as it turned out to
be, appears to have been subject to the Worst Case scenario. You/your
Mom didn't ask for an estimate and the contractor (appears to have)
seen an opportunity to rip Mom off. An estimate (read: discussion)
beforehand may have avoided this situation because the contractor
would be put on the spot and his response may have raised a flag.

Please don't waste your time with your precision scalpel cutting this
post up because it will be completely ignored, at least by me. Bottom
line is that you have appeared to have learned a very important lesson
and hopefully will not make the same mistake next time.

Good luck to you and your Mom.