After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

On Dec 3, 10:48�am, Edge wrote:
After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

mainm shutoff should be at meter.

yes its safe provided its completed fast. just like working with live
electric lines, that safe too if done properly.

natural gas is lighter than air, and the amount lost small. so dont
worry

On Dec 3, 10:48 am, Edge wrote:
After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

Was this safe? No. Is it common? I wouldn't be surprised.

When I had my furnace installed, we discovered that the main shut off
inside the house turned off the gas to all the appliances except the
furnace. The pipe to the furnace was T'd before the main internal
shutoff. In order to shut off the gas to the furnace, we would have
had to shut off the valve at the meter outside the house, which would
have required a service call to the gas company to turn it back on. We
opened all the doors in the basement and the installer removed one
section of pipe at a time, installing a nipple with a cap as he got
the next section ready. Eventually he rerouted the pipe to where it
had to go, with each section only being open for a matter of seconds.
With the air movement from the doors open we barely smelled any gas
during the process.

I will note that the installer determined which pair of pliers he
would use to turn off the gas at the meter and kept them handy
throughout the rerouting in case he had to turn the gas off.

Why would the gas co. have to turn it back on if you all turned it off? The
valve turns just as easy both ways.

s




"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
When I had my furnace installed, we discovered that the main shut off
inside the house turned off the gas to all the appliances except the
furnace. The pipe to the furnace was T'd before the main internal
shutoff. In order to shut off the gas to the furnace, we would have
had to shut off the valve at the meter outside the house, which would
have required a service call to the gas company to turn it back on. We

On Dec 3, 10:22 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 3, 10:48 am, Edge wrote:

After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

Was this safe? No. Is it common? I wouldn't be surprised.

When I had my furnace installed, we discovered that the main shut off
inside the house turned off the gas to all the appliances except the
furnace. The pipe to the furnace was T'd before the main internal
shutoff. In order to shut off the gas to the furnace, we would have
had to shut off the valve at the meter outside the house, which would
have required a service call to the gas company to turn it back on. We
opened all the doors in the basement and the installer removed one
section of pipe at a time, installing a nipple with a cap as he got
the next section ready. Eventually he rerouted the pipe to where it
had to go, with each section only being open for a matter of seconds.
With the air movement from the doors open we barely smelled any gas
during the process.

I will note that the installer determined which pair of pliers he
would use to turn off the gas at the meter and kept them handy
throughout the rerouting in case he had to turn the gas off.

I had a similar experience - when we put in a gas stove in the
kitchen, the installer had to run piping for it. Working backwards
from where the stove was, he installed piping (including a shutoff) up
to the point where he was going to tap in to the existing gas pipe.
He then quickly unscrewed a connection and installed a T to serve the
new pipe. As I recall, part of the time he just put his thumb over
the open pipe end to minimize leakage. Nothing bad happened. -- H

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 08:08:03 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 3, 10:48?am, Edge wrote:
After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

mainm shutoff should be at meter.

See http://www.gru.com/stormcentral/images/valve.gif

yes its safe provided its completed fast. just like working with live
electric lines, that safe too if done properly.

natural gas is lighter than air, and the amount lost small. so dont
worry

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

On Dec 3, 11:49 am, "S. Barker" wrote:
Why would the gas co. have to turn it back on if you all turned it off? The
valve turns just as easy both ways.

s

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...



When I had my furnace installed, we discovered that the main shut off
inside the house turned off the gas to all the appliances except the
furnace. The pipe to the furnace was T'd before the main internal
shutoff. In order to shut off the gas to the furnace, we would have
had to shut off the valve at the meter outside the house, which would
have required a service call to the gas company to turn it back on. We- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The installer looked at the meter and said it was the style that was
required to be "reset" with a special tool before the gas would come
back on. Yes, the valve would turn both ways, but that something else
had to be done to actually get the gas to flow. I guess it's a safety
thing - if the gas had to be shut off, then either something was wrong
or you made a change and they want to inspect stuff before the gas can
be turned back on. No one would just turn the gas off for no reason.

On the other hand, the installer could have been wrong...I'll call my
gas provider when I get a chance just so I'll know.

On Dec 3, 11:08Â*am, " wrote:
On Dec 3, 10:48�am, Edge wrote:

After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

mainm shutoff should be at meter.

yes its safe provided its completed fast. just like working with live
electric lines, that safe too if done properly.

natural gas is lighter than air, and the amount lost small. so dont
worry

just like working with live electric lines, that safe too if done
properly

Except that when working with live electric lines the results would
not be as dramatic if something goes horribly wrong.

Let's take a worse case scenario - a solitary worker becomes disabled
in the middle of the job - say from a heart attack. With live electric
lines, there would be little to no damage, other than perhaps an
injured/killed worker or a tripped breaker. However, if that same
worker becomes disabled after opening a gas pipe, things could go boom
if the conditions are right.

I know it's long shot situation, but to call it "just like" working on
live electric lines might be a stretch.

According to Oren :

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A smouldering cigarette isn't very hot - puffing it makes it a lot
hotter, and apparently methane has a rather high ignition energy compared
to other gasses.

However, the explanation is probably not that.

Methane has a LFL (lower flammability limit) of 5.3% and a UFL
(upper flammability limit) of 15%. It also has LEL (lower explosive
limit) of 5.53%.

Which means that unless the methane concentration in air is between LFL
and UFL, it won't ignite.

Gas lines past the regulator are also fairly low pressure, so opening
it doesn't spew gas very quickly. Secondly, methane is lighter than
air, so it goes up, rather than stick around.

An residential gas line venting in open air, is quite unlikely to
ignite from something 30' away. Even enclosed in an open garage,
it'd take a while to build up the concentration to the danger
point - if there's any ventilation at all, it might not ever reach
that concentration more than a few feet away from the vent point.

You still have to be careful - there could be wind patterns
that push a plume to exactly the right place. And it depends on
the gas. Propane is heavier than air. It will "puddle" in
depressions and stick around for quite a while in low wind
conditions. There was a propane tank car derailment around 40
years ago in the north end of Toronto, where the tank fully
vented. Everything was pretty much under control, until the
propane flowing down a small creek valley (very still air
conditions) finally reached an open flame about half a mile away.

Can't happen with methane.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:31:27 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Oren :

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A smouldering cigarette isn't very hot - puffing it makes it a lot
hotter, and apparently methane has a rather high ignition energy compared
to other gasses.

However, the explanation is probably not that.

Methane has a LFL (lower flammability limit) of 5.3% and a UFL
(upper flammability limit) of 15%. It also has LEL (lower explosive
limit) of 5.53%.

Which means that unless the methane concentration in air is between LFL
and UFL, it won't ignite.

Gas lines past the regulator are also fairly low pressure, so opening
it doesn't spew gas very quickly. Secondly, methane is lighter than
air, so it goes up, rather than stick around.

An residential gas line venting in open air, is quite unlikely to
ignite from something 30' away. Even enclosed in an open garage,
it'd take a while to build up the concentration to the danger
point - if there's any ventilation at all, it might not ever reach
that concentration more than a few feet away from the vent point.

You still have to be careful - there could be wind patterns
that push a plume to exactly the right place. And it depends on
the gas. Propane is heavier than air. It will "puddle" in
depressions and stick around for quite a while in low wind
conditions. There was a propane tank car derailment around 40
years ago in the north end of Toronto, where the tank fully
vented. Everything was pretty much under control, until the
propane flowing down a small creek valley (very still air
conditions) finally reached an open flame about half a mile away.

Can't happen with methane.

Thanks. IIRC, she did state that striking a match would be hot enough
to ignite the gas, but the concentration would have to build up.

On Dec 3, 12:31 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to Oren :

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.
The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A smouldering cigarette isn't very hot - puffing it makes it a lot
hotter, and apparently methane has a rather high ignition energy compared
to other gasses.

However, the explanation is probably not that.

Methane has a LFL (lower flammability limit) of 5.3% and a UFL
(upper flammability limit) of 15%. It also has LEL (lower explosive
limit) of 5.53%.

Which means that unless the methane concentration in air is between LFL
and UFL, it won't ignite.

Gas lines past the regulator are also fairly low pressure, so opening
it doesn't spew gas very quickly. Secondly, methane is lighter than
air, so it goes up, rather than stick around.

An residential gas line venting in open air, is quite unlikely to
ignite from something 30' away. Even enclosed in an open garage,
it'd take a while to build up the concentration to the danger
point - if there's any ventilation at all, it might not ever reach
that concentration more than a few feet away from the vent point.

You still have to be careful - there could be wind patterns
that push a plume to exactly the right place. And it depends on
the gas. Propane is heavier than air. It will "puddle" in
depressions and stick around for quite a while in low wind
conditions. There was a propane tank car derailment around 40
years ago in the north end of Toronto, where the tank fully
vented. Everything was pretty much under control, until the
propane flowing down a small creek valley (very still air
conditions) finally reached an open flame about half a mile away.

Can't happen with methane.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I have been told that natural gas is not chemically pure. It is a
mixture of various natural gases - methane, ethane, etc. What the
utility company does to ensure a uniform BTU, I don't know.

As for the low pressure of the gas line, I know that I have turned on
the gas at a stove where it did not ignite immediately. The gas
buildup from just waiting a couple of seconds before finally igniting
produces a mini explosion that would singed my eyebrows if I were
close enough. A plumber's face would be closer to an open pipe. I
guess a good plumber will still have hair on his face.

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:31:27 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to Oren :

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.
The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.
A smouldering cigarette isn't very hot - puffing it makes it a lot
hotter, and apparently methane has a rather high ignition energy compared
to other gasses.

However, the explanation is probably not that.

Methane has a LFL (lower flammability limit) of 5.3% and a UFL
(upper flammability limit) of 15%. It also has LEL (lower explosive
limit) of 5.53%.

Which means that unless the methane concentration in air is between LFL
and UFL, it won't ignite.

Gas lines past the regulator are also fairly low pressure, so opening
it doesn't spew gas very quickly. Secondly, methane is lighter than
air, so it goes up, rather than stick around.

An residential gas line venting in open air, is quite unlikely to
ignite from something 30' away. Even enclosed in an open garage,
it'd take a while to build up the concentration to the danger
point - if there's any ventilation at all, it might not ever reach
that concentration more than a few feet away from the vent point.

You still have to be careful - there could be wind patterns
that push a plume to exactly the right place. And it depends on
the gas. Propane is heavier than air. It will "puddle" in
depressions and stick around for quite a while in low wind
conditions. There was a propane tank car derailment around 40
years ago in the north end of Toronto, where the tank fully
vented. Everything was pretty much under control, until the
propane flowing down a small creek valley (very still air
conditions) finally reached an open flame about half a mile away.

Can't happen with methane.

Thanks. IIRC, she did state that striking a match would be hot enough
to ignite the gas, but the concentration would have to build up.

Besides UFL and LFL flash point is another part of the equation.
Methane's is far below zero and a cigarette or match would readily
ignite it. Static electricity, like from walking over a nylon carpet
could ignite it. There is also autoignition temperature and it takes a
very hot surface to ignite methane. The tech's comment about the
cigarette was downright stupid.

On Dec 3, 2:54�pm, Edge wrote:
On Dec 3, 12:31 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:





According to Oren :

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.
The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A smouldering cigarette isn't very hot - puffing it makes it a lot
hotter, and apparently methane has a rather high ignition energy compared
to other gasses.

However, the explanation is probably not that.

Methane has a LFL (lower flammability limit) of 5.3% and a UFL
(upper flammability limit) of 15%. �It also has LEL (lower explosive
limit) of 5.53%.

Which means that unless the methane concentration in air is between LFL
and UFL, it won't ignite.

Gas lines past the regulator are also fairly low pressure, so opening
it doesn't spew gas very quickly. �Secondly, methane is lighter than
air, so it goes up, rather than stick around.

An residential gas line venting in open air, is quite unlikely to
ignite from something 30' away. �Even enclosed in an open garage,
it'd take a while to build up the concentration to the danger
point - if there's any ventilation at all, it might not ever reach
that concentration more than a few feet away from the vent point.

You still have to be careful - there could be wind patterns
that push a plume to exactly the right place. �And it depends on
the gas. �Propane is heavier than air. �It will "puddle" in
depressions and stick around for quite a while in low wind
conditions. �There was a propane tank car derailment around 40
years ago in the north end of Toronto, where the tank fully
vented. �Everything was pretty much under control, until the
propane flowing down a small creek valley (very still air
conditions) finally reached an open flame about half a mile away.

Can't happen with methane.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I have been told that natural gas is not chemically pure. It is a
mixture of various natural gases - methane, ethane, etc. What the
utility company does to ensure a uniform BTU, I don't know.

As for the low pressure of the gas line, I know that I have turned on
the gas at a stove where it did not ignite immediately. The gas
buildup from just waiting a couple of seconds before finally igniting
produces a mini explosion that would singed my eyebrows if I were
close enough. A plumber's face would be closer to an open pipe. I
guess a good plumber will still have hair on his face.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

stove burners are mixers too, designed to mix air and gas for good
burning. thats not the case with a open gas line.

gas companies do it all the time, as proof whens the last time your
gas was shut off when they did repairs?

never in my case, really only occurs when water gets into gas lines.
other than that gas up time must be 100%

On Dec 3, 2:44 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Why? I've never heard that.

--

Christopher A. Young;
.
.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
shutoff. In order to shut off the gas to the furnace, we would have
had to shut off the valve at the meter outside the house, which would
have required a service call to the gas company to turn it back on.

I answered that question about 2 hours ago.

Here's what I said:

Quote ...

The installer looked at the meter and said it was the style that was
required to be "reset" with a special tool before the gas would come
back on. Yes, the valve would turn both ways, but that something else
had to be done to actually get the gas to flow. I guess it's a
safety
thing - if the gas had to be shut off, then either something was
wrong
or you made a change and they want to inspect stuff before the gas
can
be turned back on. No one would just turn the gas off for no reason.

On the other hand, the installer could have been wrong...I'll call my
gas provider when I get a chance just so I'll know.

.... Unquote

On Dec 3, 3:03Â*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 3, 2:54�pm, Edge wrote:





On Dec 3, 12:31 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:

According to Oren :

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.
The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A smouldering cigarette isn't very hot - puffing it makes it a lot
hotter, and apparently methane has a rather high ignition energy compared
to other gasses.

However, the explanation is probably not that.

Methane has a LFL (lower flammability limit) of 5.3% and a UFL
(upper flammability limit) of 15%. �It also has LEL (lower explosive
limit) of 5.53%.

Which means that unless the methane concentration in air is between LFL
and UFL, it won't ignite.

Gas lines past the regulator are also fairly low pressure, so opening
it doesn't spew gas very quickly. �Secondly, methane is lighter than
air, so it goes up, rather than stick around.

An residential gas line venting in open air, is quite unlikely to
ignite from something 30' away. �Even enclosed in an open garage,
it'd take a while to build up the concentration to the danger
point - if there's any ventilation at all, it might not ever reach
that concentration more than a few feet away from the vent point.

You still have to be careful - there could be wind patterns
that push a plume to exactly the right place. �And it depends on
the gas. �Propane is heavier than air. �It will "puddle" in
depressions and stick around for quite a while in low wind
conditions. �There was a propane tank car derailment around 40
years ago in the north end of Toronto, where the tank fully
vented. �Everything was pretty much under control, until the
propane flowing down a small creek valley (very still air
conditions) finally reached an open flame about half a mile away.

Can't happen with methane.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I have been told that natural gas is not chemically pure. It is a
mixture of various natural gases - methane, ethane, etc. What the
utility company does to ensure a uniform BTU, I don't know.

As for the low pressure of the gas line, I know that I have turned on
the gas at a stove where it did not ignite immediately. The gas
buildup from just waiting a couple of seconds before finally igniting
produces a mini explosion that would singed my eyebrows if I were
close enough. A plumber's face would be closer to an open pipe. I
guess a good plumber will still have hair on his face.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

stove burners are mixers too, designed to mix air and gas for good
burning. thats not the case with a open gas line.

gas companies do it all the time, as proof whens the last time your
gas was shut off when they did repairs?

never in my case, really only occurs when water gets into gas lines.
other than that gas up time must be 100%- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For what it's worth, I was watching TOH a few weeks ago where they
tapped into the gas main to run a new line to a customer. They used
something very similiar to those needle valves you use to tap into a
water line. It was more sophisticated in that they drilled the line
first and then attached the valve, but the device they used kept the
gas line sealed at all times. I know that's not a repair, but the
point is that they kept the system both pressurized and sealed at all
times.

However, I do have a question about your repair scenario: If they
actually opened the lines and vented the gas to the open air during a
repair, wouldn't there be a "gap" in any downstream gas delivery that
would extinguish any pilot lights that were burning?

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 3, 3:03 pm, " wrote:
On Dec 3, 2:54�pm, Edge wrote:

On Dec 3, 12:31 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to Oren :
Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. ...

For what it's worth, I was watching TOH a few weeks ago where they
tapped into the gas main to run a new line to a customer. They used
something very similiar to those needle valves you use to tap into a
water line. It was more sophisticated in that they drilled the line
first and then attached the valve, but the device they used kept the
gas line sealed at all times. I know that's not a repair, but the
point is that they kept the system both pressurized and sealed at all
times.

However, I do have a question about your repair scenario: If they
actually opened the lines and vented the gas to the open air during a
repair, wouldn't there be a "gap" in any downstream gas delivery that
would extinguish any pilot lights that were burning?

That was the new service line to the residence that was being purged,
not the main, so the answer is "no", they wouldn't have noticed.

As for the tap-in, sure they seal and are careful of sparks, too, but
the main lines are at much higher pressure/volume than a single service
line so they lose much more gas than the scenario here.

--

On Dec 3, 8:48 am, Edge wrote:
After I had my house built, I noticed that the natural gas line to the
dryer did not have a shutoff valve. The builder sent over a plumber to
install one. Without turning off the gas, he unscrewed the end cap,
doped up the threads, and screwed in a shutoff valve. Although it only
took less than a minute, was this safe? This was located in the
basement near the furnace and water heater, which could have provided
an ignition point. I never had to shut off the gas to the whole house.
For my information, where is the main shutoff for the gas?

Was it safe? I guess it was if your house is still there. As a
licensed plumber I
have done that many times but I would not have done it if the
homeowner was there.
The gas has a very potent smell that is much stronger then the gas
itself. It's done
that way to get the consumers to pay attention to a small leak. Ever
fixture needs
its own shut-off. The main gas shut-off is located outside the house
where the gas
main enters the house. It is illegal to for a gas pipe to enter any
building below ground.
Your gas meter also has a (2) gas shut-offs. One is for a lock when
you don't pay your bills.
Listen or call in to the Jack Hammer Re-construction show on Tuesday
Morning 9:am to 10:am
888-321-7234 and www.castlerrockradio.com Tomorrows show is about
water treatment.

On Dec 3, 3:26Â*pm, dpb wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 3, 3:03 pm, " wrote:
On Dec 3, 2:54�pm, Edge wrote:

On Dec 3, 12:31 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to Oren :
Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. ...
For what it's worth, I was watching TOH a few weeks ago where they
tapped into the gas main to run a new line to a customer. They used
something very similiar to those needle valves you use to tap into a
water line. Â*It was more sophisticated in that they drilled the line
first and then attached the valve, but the device they used kept the
gas line sealed at all times. I know that's not a repair, but the
point is that they kept the system both pressurized and sealed at all
times.

However, I do have a question about your repair scenario: If they
actually opened the lines and vented the gas to the open air during a
repair, wouldn't there be a "gap" in any downstream gas delivery that
would extinguish any pilot lights that were burning?

That was the new service line to the residence that was being purged,
not the main, so the answer is "no", they wouldn't have noticed.

As for the tap-in, sure they seal and are careful of sparks, too, but
the main lines are at much higher pressure/volume than a single service
line so they lose much more gas than the scenario here.

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you were responding to my post, you may have misunderstood my
question ...

I was asking about his repair scenario, not the new service line to
the customer.

hallerb said "gas companies do it all the time, as proof whens the
last time your gas was shut off when they did repairs?"

I am assuming he means that the gas company does not shut off the gas
every time they repair a gas line. Here's my question: If they open a
line and vent it to the air during the repair, then wouldn't any
downstream customers lose pressure and therefore lose their pilot
lights? I'm not questioning the fact that they do or don't shut off
the gas, but it seems to me that to any customers downstream of the
repair, it's going to look like the gas was off if they open the
line.

Perhaps they tap around the repair before opening the line? If that's
the case, no one would lose service, but they are not really doing the
same thing as a guy installing a valve or T in a house like the OP
(and I) have seen them do.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 3, 3:26 pm, dpb wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 3, 3:03 pm, " wrote:
On Dec 3, 2:54�pm, Edge wrote:
On Dec 3, 12:31 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to Oren :
Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. ...
For what it's worth, I was watching TOH a few weeks ago where they
tapped into the gas main to run a new line to a customer. They used
something very similiar to those needle valves you use to tap into a
water line. It was more sophisticated in that they drilled the line
first and then attached the valve, but the device they used kept the
gas line sealed at all times. I know that's not a repair, but the
point is that they kept the system both pressurized and sealed at all
times.
However, I do have a question about your repair scenario: If they
actually opened the lines and vented the gas to the open air during a
repair, wouldn't there be a "gap" in any downstream gas delivery that
would extinguish any pilot lights that were burning?
That was the new service line to the residence that was being purged,
not the main, so the answer is "no", they wouldn't have noticed.

As for the tap-in, sure they seal and are careful of sparks, too, but
the main lines are at much higher pressure/volume than a single service
line so they lose much more gas than the scenario here.

--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you were responding to my post, you may have misunderstood my
question ...

I was asking about his repair scenario, not the new service line to
the customer.

hallerb said "gas companies do it all the time, as proof whens the
last time your gas was shut off when they did repairs?"

I am assuming he means that the gas company does not shut off the gas
every time they repair a gas line. Here's my question: If they open a
line and vent it to the air during the repair, then wouldn't any
downstream customers lose pressure and therefore lose their pilot
lights? I'm not questioning the fact that they do or don't shut off
the gas, but it seems to me that to any customers downstream of the
repair, it's going to look like the gas was off if they open the
line.

Perhaps they tap around the repair before opening the line? If that's
the case, no one would lose service, but they are not really doing the
same thing as a guy installing a valve or T in a house like the OP
(and I) have seen them do.

OK, yes, I did misread your question and answered the unasked one...

If they were, indeed to completely open a line, then yes, unless there
were alternate supply there would be a loss of service downstream. IME
anything that required that level of work _would_ entail a notification
and a cessation of services. Not many residential branches have
alternate supply mains although I suppose if the work were extensive
enough they might bypass an area to not have extended outage.

In general, installed pipelines are pretty maintenance free for quite
long time periods so the consumer observation of loss of service is
quite rare. Our tap comes directly off a main (36") cross-country line
that crosses our place east of the house about a quarter mile away. To
the best of my knowledge that line hasn't had a service outage in
20-something years since they redid a section. It is flown by aerial
surveillance once/month to spot any problems. The other line just to
the west of the house that was more recently laid was worked on just
last year to lower it under the road because the county has been making
noises of re-elevating these roads sometime and if they were to do so
they just might have come close to the existing depth. It's a 42" line
and was shutdown for a period while the new section was fitted in and
welded in place. They only dug access holes to the ends on each end
about 40-ft away from the road and then a little longer trench on one
side. The then punched the new through under the road w/o trenching the
100-ft or so from one access hole to the other. The did a local
pressure test on the new section before inserting it then a pressure
test on the last connections and done. On those big lines they
don't/can't flush them anyway because of the length the amount of air in
a 100-ft section out of the 1500 miles before it gets to its ultimate
destination is inconsequential as it gets mixed up during the compressor
booster stations anyway.

For smaller side distribution lines I don't know whether they would
bother to try to purge or not or whether they just let the end users
deal with it until the air slug is gone...

--

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:02:31 -0500, Frank
frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:

The tech's comment about the
cigarette was downright stupid.

The very reason I jumped! Then questioned her. I think she was hot for
a girl on site

But I don't know.

Oren wrote:

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A lit cigarette won't ignite gasoline either.

A lit cigarette is barely hot enough to ignite another cigarette.

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:19:15 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:

Oren wrote:

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A lit cigarette won't ignite gasoline either.

Said to be demonstrated, by tossing a lit butt into a open container
of gasoline. Supposedly, it will be distinguished.

A lit cigarette is barely hot enough to ignite another cigarette.

On Dec 3, 5:34 pm, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:19:15 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:
Oren wrote:

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A lit cigarette won't ignite gasoline either.

Said to be demonstrated, by tossing a lit butt into a open container
of gasoline. Supposedly, it will be distinguished.



A lit cigarette is barely hot enough to ignite another cigarette.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Supposedly, it will be distinguished (sic)

Distinguished or extinguished?

Distinguished might certainly fit the situation if it blew up.. ;-)

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:42:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Dec 3, 5:34 pm, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:19:15 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:
Oren wrote:

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A lit cigarette won't ignite gasoline either.

Said to be demonstrated, by tossing a lit butt into a open container
of gasoline. Supposedly, it will be distinguished.



A lit cigarette is barely hot enough to ignite another cigarette.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Supposedly, it will be distinguished (sic)

Distinguished or extinguished?

Distinguished might certainly fit the situation if it blew up.. ;-)

You are correct

EX vs DIS

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

and he was right. even an acetylene cutting torch won't ignite off a
cigarette without a punch of the oxygen lever.

s

"Oren" wrote in message
...
The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

What's stupid about it? It was the truth.

s

"Frank" frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote in message
. ..
The tech's comment about the
cigarette was downright stupid.

Exactly what happens. I've done it dozens of times.

s


"Oren" wrote in message
...

Said to be demonstrated, by tossing a lit butt into a open container
of gasoline. Supposedly, it will be distinguished.

Gasoline does not 'blow up'.

s



"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 5:34 pm, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 16:19:15 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote:
Oren wrote:

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.

A lit cigarette won't ignite gasoline either.

Said to be demonstrated, by tossing a lit butt into a open container
of gasoline. Supposedly, it will be distinguished.



A lit cigarette is barely hot enough to ignite another cigarette.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Supposedly, it will be distinguished (sic)

Distinguished or extinguished?

Distinguished might certainly fit the situation if it blew up.. ;-)

Hmmmm. I've turned mine off and back on a dozen or so times. Never paid
no mind as to how fast i opened the valve.



s



"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I'd wondered that also. I've shut off gas before the meter, just have to
turn it on very very slowly until you hear the gas start to flow. And then
leave it for several seconds, so the system pressurizes slowly.

--

Christopher A. Young;
.
.

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
Why would the gas co. have to turn it back on if you all turned it off?
The
valve turns just as easy both ways.

s

HeyBub wrote:

Oren wrote:

Recently the gas company was out to put a new meter on a new home. She
installed the meter and opened a gas line inside the garage to purge
the line. About thirty feet away was a lit cigarette.

The tech told me that the cigarette was "not hot enough" to ignite the
gas. I was surprised by this comment.


A lit cigarette won't ignite gasoline either.

depends on the circumstances

make a shallow pool of gasoline, wait a few minutes, and toss in a cig



A lit cigarette is barely hot enough to ignite another cigarette.




--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
thing - if the gas had to be shut off, then either something was
wrong
or you made a change and they want to inspect stuff before the gas
can
be turned back on. No one would just turn the gas off for no reason.

On the other hand, the installer could have been wrong...I'll call my
gas provider when I get a chance just so I'll know.

... Unquote

Some pressure regulators will lock out. As for why anyone would shut the
gas off, it may be to remove and bypass the meter. People go to great
lengths to steal utilities.

Last week we hat the gas off at work while they hooked up an additional gas
line. A service guy had to check each appliance in the building to be sure
it fired up OK. Of the 10 units, two have pilot lights (others are
electronics) and he used a stick match on the end of a 6" rod with a clip to
hold the match. For safety reasons, they are not allowed to use the butane
lighters. He said they are too explosive and pack the power of 1/4 stick of
dynamite.

To reset the meter you turn on the gas, open the cap for the diaphragm, and
there is a little shaft in there, you just give it a tug and you will hear
the gas start flowing, then put the cap back on. No need to call the gas
company.


"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Dec 3, 11:49 am, "S. Barker" wrote:
Why would the gas co. have to turn it back on if you all turned it off?
The
valve turns just as easy both ways.

s

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...



When I had my furnace installed, we discovered that the main shut off
inside the house turned off the gas to all the appliances except the
furnace. The pipe to the furnace was T'd before the main internal
shutoff. In order to shut off the gas to the furnace, we would have
had to shut off the valve at the meter outside the house, which would
have required a service call to the gas company to turn it back on. We-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The installer looked at the meter and said it was the style that was
required to be "reset" with a special tool before the gas would come
back on. Yes, the valve would turn both ways, but that something else
had to be done to actually get the gas to flow. I guess it's a safety
thing - if the gas had to be shut off, then either something was wrong
or you made a change and they want to inspect stuff before the gas can
be turned back on. No one would just turn the gas off for no reason.

On the other hand, the installer could have been wrong...I'll call my
gas provider when I get a chance just so I'll know.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Someone has a goofy sense of things. Someone want to tell me how a butane
lighter can explode while lighting a pilot light?

I use an Aim N Flame, one of the long lighters with the flame at the end.
Or, I use a Mapp or propane torch to warm the thermocouple and light the
pilot. I've been known to warm the thermocouple with a Mapp torch, turn
the
gas valve open, and the torch lights the burner ring under the water tank.
Yeah, that's probably not a good idea.

I don't much like the smell of sulfur with using matches.


I probably goes with the "don't use your cell phone when pumping gas"
stories. I did a quick Google search and found nothing of interest on
explosions

According to Frank frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet:

Besides UFL and LFL flash point is another part of the equation.
Methane's is far below zero and a cigarette or match would readily
ignite it.

Not quite. Flash point is the point at which a liquified gas can
produce enough vapor to flash when ignited with a flame. By
definition, methane in a home is well above flash - all flammable
gasses are above flash point when they're a gas. The issue
raised by the OP was the temperature of the ignition point.

Static electricity, like from walking over a nylon carpet
could ignite it. There is also autoignition temperature and it takes a
very hot surface to ignite methane.

The autoignition temperature of methane is 537C. Which theoretically
means that methane won't ignite unless it comes in contact with something
above 537C.

The tech's comment about the cigarette was downright stupid.

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae1.cfm
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../247405a0.html
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Dec 5, 10:10 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message

...

Someone has a goofy sense of things. Someone want to tell me how a butane
lighter can explode while lighting a pilot light?

I use an Aim N Flame, one of the long lighters with the flame at the end.
Or, I use a Mapp or propane torch to warm the thermocouple and light the
pilot. I've been known to warm the thermocouple with a Mapp torch, turn
the
gas valve open, and the torch lights the burner ring under the water tank.
Yeah, that's probably not a good idea.

I don't much like the smell of sulfur with using matches.

I probably goes with the "don't use your cell phone when pumping gas"
stories. I did a quick Google search and found nothing of interest on
explosions

A few years ago I helped my wife put together a mock safety program
for a class she was taking. On the CD we included a video of a lady
who answered her cell phone while pumping gas and the "air" around her
burst into flames. I'll see if I can find it or the link and get it
posted someplace.