In article , (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

What is mystifying is how the projectile was launched in
the first place. I have a hard time believing a saw of any
kind would be able to transfer sufficient energy to the
molding. I don't think a saw or other tool accident would
have resulted in this "angle of attack" either.

Google "table saw kickback" and perhaps you won't have quite such a hard time
believing it. :-)

Tip speed of a 10" table saw blade is about 110 mph.
Motors in the type of table saw found on job sites are typically in the 0.75
to 1.5 HP range.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , (Malcolm Hoar)
wrote:

What is mystifying is how the projectile was launched in
the first place. I have a hard time believing a saw of any
kind would be able to transfer sufficient energy to the
molding. I don't think a saw or other tool accident would
have resulted in this "angle of attack" either.

Google "table saw kickback" and perhaps you won't have quite such a hard time
believing it. :-)

Tip speed of a 10" table saw blade is about 110 mph.
Motors in the type of table saw found on job sites are typically in the 0.75
to 1.5 HP range.

1 HP isn't a huge amount and a saw blade doesn't have a
huge mass. Kickback can certainly hurl a chunk of
wood across the room/shop. But it takes a lot of energy
to throw what looks to be a sizable piece of molding
across a construction site -- 7.5 feet vertical and
50ft plus horizontal, apparently.

The horsepower of the motor doesn't matter much in this
kind of scenario -- the stored energy in the spinning
blade is what matters. And I don't think that would be
sufficient. But that's why I asked for the OP's estimate
of the mass of that molding. I'm guessing it's at least
a couple of pounds.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
1 HP isn't a huge amount and a saw blade doesn't have a
huge mass. Kickback can certainly hurl a chunk of
wood across the room/shop. But it takes a lot of energy
to throw what looks to be a sizable piece of molding
across a construction site -- 7.5 feet vertical and
50ft plus horizontal, apparently.

The horsepower of the motor doesn't matter much in this
kind of scenario -- the stored energy in the spinning
blade is what matters. And I don't think that would be
sufficient. But that's why I asked for the OP's estimate
of the mass of that molding. I'm guessing it's at least
a couple of pounds.

But what you think and what really happens are entirely different.
Experience a good kickback and you'll be a believer. I've seen wood put
through metal garage doors. Traveling at 100+ mph can do some damage.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584...demonstration/
http://www.newwoodworker.com/kickback.html

The horsepower of the motor doesn't matter much in this
kind of scenario -- the stored energy in the spinning
blade is what matters. And I don't think that would be
sufficient. But that's why I asked for the OP's estimate
of the mass of that molding. I'm guessing it's at least
a couple of pounds.

But what you think and what really happens are entirely different.
Experience a good kickback and you'll be a believer. I've seen wood put
through metal garage doors. Traveling at 100+ mph can do some damage.

It should be VERY obvious to the OP whether or not the moulding had been
ripped lengthwise.

Moulding is using crosscut. Definately possible that a piece needed to be
ripped, but not likely.

In article , "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
1 HP isn't a huge amount and a saw blade doesn't have a
huge mass. Kickback can certainly hurl a chunk of
wood across the room/shop. But it takes a lot of energy
to throw what looks to be a sizable piece of molding
across a construction site -- 7.5 feet vertical and
50ft plus horizontal, apparently.

The horsepower of the motor doesn't matter much in this
kind of scenario -- the stored energy in the spinning
blade is what matters. And I don't think that would be
sufficient. But that's why I asked for the OP's estimate
of the mass of that molding. I'm guessing it's at least
a couple of pounds.

But what you think and what really happens are entirely different.
Experience a good kickback and you'll be a believer. I've seen wood put
through metal garage doors. Traveling at 100+ mph can do some damage.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584...demonstration/
http://www.newwoodworker.com/kickback.html

Those videos depict exactly what I would expect. It looks
a much smaller piece of wood and it travelled just a few
feet.

The OP's scenario involved what I think was a much larger
piece of wood. And the distance involved was hugely greater.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
Those videos depict exactly what I would expect. It looks
a much smaller piece of wood and it travelled just a few
feet.

The OP's scenario involved what I think was a much larger
piece of wood. And the distance involved was hugely greater.

Yes, it was larger in length, but narrow, like a spear. I could not find
the photo, but I've seen pieces even thicker through garage doors. 108 mph
is pretty fast for a spear.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
Those videos depict exactly what I would expect. It looks
a much smaller piece of wood and it travelled just a few
feet.

The OP's scenario involved what I think was a much larger
piece of wood. And the distance involved was hugely greater.

Yes, it was larger in length, but narrow, like a spear. I could not find
the photo, but I've seen pieces even thicker through garage doors. 108 mph
is pretty fast for a spear.

The "unusualness" here is the apparent distance and the length of the
piece. While narrow, as I've mentioned earlier, it isn't symmetric nor
balanced like a spear or a rocket making _keeping_ it going once it got
started quite a trick. The entrance velocity being sufficient after the
traveled distance is a neat trick. Would need to see the whole area in
context to have any chance at all of figuring out what actually
happened. It's never been amplified that I'm aware, but I'd kinda' lean
towards the scenario being the work was going on at second floor or eave
height so it was actually falling most of the way after launch even
though above grade where it fell. But that's purely conjecture. Try
even through a piece of moulding like that as a javelin -- it isn't real
easy to keep it from going sideways and then air resistance knocks it
down very quickly. I still wonder if the whole thing isn't faked/hoax,
frankly, even though the OP claims not...

--

Thank you all for your help. I find it interesting that some people
are saying that it's easily the result of saw kickback, and others are
suggesting that the whole thing is a hoax.

Obviously I can't prove it's not a hoax but I can pose this question--
how many hoaxers don't bother to hide their identities? If you go to
the site where I posted the photos (www.IvyLeagueComedy.com) you can
easily find out who I am-- there's even a link to my own website
www.BrainChampagne.com (I would've posted the photos there but my web
host gives me only 12 pages and I already had 12 pages up on Brain
Champagne). And while the email address I use to post on usenet
doesn't take emails (I posted a dummy address so avoid spam) there is
contact information on Brain Champagne, along with photos, my
biography...

I think that the molding was ripped and that's why it was scrap-- they
used only a portion of it. Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure it
was wood as it was rather light for an eight foot (give or take)
piece. Do they make plastic molding that looks like wood?

I did leave the detective a message but he hasn't called me back yet.
I'm reasonably sure that if I call him next week I'll be able to reach
him. I live in a small town and it's not like he's too busy
investigating murders to bother talking to me about molding. Plus, he
found it a bit interesting as he said he's worked construction.

Anyway, this happened over two months ago and I think the renovations
are finished-- their dumpster is gone, the house looks complete (at
least on the outside) and I no longer hear banging noises in the
morning.

Shaun Eli wrote:
Thank you all for your help. I find it interesting that some people
are saying that it's easily the result of saw kickback, and others are
suggesting that the whole thing is a hoax.

Obviously I can't prove it's not a hoax but I can pose this question--
how many hoaxers don't bother to hide their identities? If you go to
the site where I posted the photos (www.IvyLeagueComedy.com) you can
easily find out who I am-- there's even a link to my own website
www.BrainChampagne.com (I would've posted the photos there but my web
host gives me only 12 pages and I already had 12 pages up on Brain
Champagne). And while the email address I use to post on usenet
doesn't take emails (I posted a dummy address so avoid spam) there is
contact information on Brain Champagne, along with photos, my
biography...

I think that the molding was ripped and that's why it was scrap-- they
used only a portion of it. Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure it
was wood as it was rather light for an eight foot (give or take)
piece. Do they make plastic molding that looks like wood?

I did leave the detective a message but he hasn't called me back yet.
I'm reasonably sure that if I call him next week I'll be able to reach
him. I live in a small town and it's not like he's too busy
investigating murders to bother talking to me about molding. Plus, he
found it a bit interesting as he said he's worked construction.

Anyway, this happened over two months ago and I think the renovations
are finished-- their dumpster is gone, the house looks complete (at
least on the outside) and I no longer hear banging noises in the
morning.

The thing is, identity or not, you've not given much detail of the site
and arrangement of stuff that would have major bearing on how this all
happened. And, why two months ago and just now asking when whatever
evidence of what happened is completely gone?

I'm willing to believe it's _possible_, I've seen some really bizarre
accident consequences as just a fluke of a specific set of circumstances
that as noted previously, probably couldn't be duplicated once out of a
hundred tries, if that.

But to have any hope at all of trying to understand this event, would
need far more information about the site, the house being built
geometry, location, elevation, distance, the details of your house,
details of any evidence of saw marks, etc., on the moulding, etc., etc.,
etc., ..., none of which other than a couple of overview-type pictures
are around. So, while it would still be conjecture, if had a bunch of
that kind of thing, it could at least be a little more informed conjecture.

And, yes, there are a whole bunch of plastic-foam types of moulding w/
densities similar to or lighter than typical pine.

--

I noticed the radiant heat in the picture. Any complaints with this
type of system over forced air heat? Just wondering as my daughter
just purchased a house with this type of system for heat.

I've never lived with forced-air heat so I can't compare. The only
complaint I have about my hot water system is that the pipes clang and
nobody's been able to do anything about it (and there's no air bleed
anywhere I can find, if air has anything to do with it-- last year a
plumber flushed the system and all that did was lead to more water-
rushing noises).

To get back to the original issue-- it happened two months ago and I
just now got around to posting because I've been busy and it hasn't
been a high priority. Regardless, the timing wouldn't affect whether
I'm making this all up (which I'm not).

Some more details:

The house behind me was a two-story house and they added a third
story. The construction took quite a long time-- I think the
contractors were probably only working there part-time.

My back yard slopes down towards their house, but their yard slopes
down toward the back also, so their first floor windows are roughly
the same elevation as mine-- or at least it looks that way from my
living room window.

The houses are in lower Westchester County, NY. My house is a
colonial style built in the mid sixties. I don't know when the house
behind me was first built. I can't comment on any saw marks on the
molding since I don't have it (the detective pulled it out of my house
when he investigated, and took it away-- I'm hoping he still has it).
Since he worked construction he probably would remember whether it was
wood or plastic, and whether it was cut (which I think it was). I
don't particularly remember any saw marks.

Also, I had to shrink the photos to fit them onto the website, but if
anybody really wants photos with more resolution feel free to contact
me through the website I posted the photos on-- but be prepared
because I think they're around 5 meg each, on average.

-Shaun

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:29:54 -0800 (PST), Shaun Eli
wrote:

Thank you all for your help. I find it interesting that some people
are saying that it's easily the result of saw kickback, and others are
suggesting that the whole thing is a hoax.

I must be alone, thinking "Mother Nature".

"A microburst often has high winds that can knock over full grown
trees. They usually last for a couple of seconds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microburst

Shaun Eli wrote:
I've never lived with forced-air heat so I can't compare. The only
complaint I have about my hot water system is that the pipes clang and
nobody's been able to do anything about it (and there's no air bleed
anywhere I can find, if air has anything to do with it-- last year a
plumber flushed the system and all that did was lead to more water-
rushing noises).

To get back to the original issue-- it happened two months ago and I
just now got around to posting because I've been busy and it hasn't
been a high priority. Regardless, the timing wouldn't affect whether
I'm making this all up (which I'm not).

Some more details:

The house behind me was a two-story house and they added a third
story. The construction took quite a long time-- I think the
contractors were probably only working there part-time.

My back yard slopes down towards their house, but their yard slopes
down toward the back also, so their first floor windows are roughly
the same elevation as mine-- or at least it looks that way from my
living room window.

The houses are in lower Westchester County, NY. My house is a
colonial style built in the mid sixties. I don't know when the house
behind me was first built. I can't comment on any saw marks on the
molding since I don't have it (the detective pulled it out of my house
when he investigated, and took it away-- I'm hoping he still has it).
Since he worked construction he probably would remember whether it was
wood or plastic, and whether it was cut (which I think it was). I
don't particularly remember any saw marks.

Also, I had to shrink the photos to fit them onto the website, but if
anybody really wants photos with more resolution feel free to contact
me through the website I posted the photos on-- but be prepared
because I think they're around 5 meg each, on average.

So it is very likely that in fact the piece was launched from well above
where it landed and gravity did do quite a lot of the work.

The detail on your house would need to be the actual construction detail
at the penetration location, not the generalities.

The detail in the photographs needs to be close ups of the edges,
showing the markings made by whatever it was that was being done. The
same pictures in larger detail probably won't help.

Again, I'm willing to believe it _could_ happen, the _how_ is at least a
little more "conjecturable" now, but really would like to have a chance
to look at the piece itself closely--I bet it would tell quite a bit one
way or another. If it was actually a kickback, there's bound to be a
good gouge mark somewhere. If there are no signs at all of that, then
I'd lean back towards the prank/play aspect of somebody trying out a
bungie slingshot as a lark and getting more than they ever expected--or
could probably do again...

If this "detective" is really very experienced in construction, it
shouldn't have taken him more than a couple of minutes to figure out
what was likely to have happened when he could see the whole thing in
situ plus handle the piece itself, walk over to the construction site,
etc., etc., ...

imo, $0.02, etc., ...

--

Oren wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:29:54 -0800 (PST), Shaun Eli
wrote:

Thank you all for your help. I find it interesting that some people
are saying that it's easily the result of saw kickback, and others are
suggesting that the whole thing is a hoax.

I must be alone, thinking "Mother Nature".

"A microburst often has high winds that can knock over full grown
trees. They usually last for a couple of seconds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microburst

That's an awfully short time duration--don't believe it's nearly that.

I'd say it would be a possible culprit if there were other ancillary
damage/evidence -- there would be an area affected and other people
would have noticed the event. There's been no indication of any high
winds in the area to date in the narrative.

--

The detail in the photographs needs to be close ups of the edges,
showing the markings made by whatever it was that was being done. The
same pictures in larger detail probably won't help.

If you look closely you'll see what appears to be saw marks repeating
themselves every half inch or so on picture number four. This could be
the start of, or a portion of the grabbing action of a saw blade.

wrote:
The detail in the photographs needs to be close ups of the edges,
showing the markings made by whatever it was that was being done. The
same pictures in larger detail probably won't help.

If you look closely you'll see what appears to be saw marks repeating
themselves every half inch or so on picture number four. This could be
the start of, or a portion of the grabbing action of a saw blade.

An indication that the piece was ripped, yes; and quite typical of the
misalignment often found on a contractor saw or w/ long pieces that are
flexible. What I'd be looking for is the actual location where it got
grabbed and flung if it did--there would almost certainly be a good
gouge at that specific location, not just the tooth marks this picture
shows.

--

dpb wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message

Those videos depict exactly what I would expect. It looks
a much smaller piece of wood and it travelled just a few
feet.

The OP's scenario involved what I think was a much larger
piece of wood. And the distance involved was hugely greater.


Yes, it was larger in length, but narrow, like a spear. I could not
find the photo, but I've seen pieces even thicker through garage
doors. 108 mph is pretty fast for a spear.


The "unusualness" here is the apparent distance and the length of the
piece. While narrow, as I've mentioned earlier, it isn't symmetric
nor balanced like a spear or a rocket making _keeping_ it going once
it got started quite a trick. The entrance velocity being sufficient
after the traveled distance is a neat trick. Would need to see the
whole area in context to have any chance at all of figuring out what
actually happened. It's never been amplified that I'm aware, but I'd
kinda' lean towards the scenario being the work was going on at second
floor or eave height so it was actually falling most of the way after
launch even though above grade where it fell. But that's purely
conjecture. Try even through a piece of moulding like that as a
javelin -- it isn't real easy to keep it from going sideways and then
air resistance knocks it down very quickly. I still wonder if the
whole thing isn't faked/hoax, frankly, even though the OP claims not...

--

But they would not be using the molding until the house (assumed) was
closed in. My vote is still for a prankster - kids with special talent
and curiosity, or worker on constr. site up to tricks with some power
tool.

Oren wrote:

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:29:54 -0800 (PST), Shaun Eli
wrote:



Thank you all for your help. I find it interesting that some people
are saying that it's easily the result of saw kickback, and others are
suggesting that the whole thing is a hoax.



I must be alone, thinking "Mother Nature".

"A microburst often has high winds that can knock over full grown
trees. They usually last for a couple of seconds."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microburst


Picked up only one stick? Not logical, although it is interesting.
Mebbe the OP is a physics PhD doing a paper on how much the average guy
knows about physics. )

Norminn wrote:
dpb wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message

Those videos depict exactly what I would expect. It looks
a much smaller piece of wood and it travelled just a few
feet.

The OP's scenario involved what I think was a much larger
piece of wood. And the distance involved was hugely greater.


Yes, it was larger in length, but narrow, like a spear. I could not
find the photo, but I've seen pieces even thicker through garage
doors. 108 mph is pretty fast for a spear.


The "unusualness" here is the apparent distance and the length of the
piece. While narrow, as I've mentioned earlier, it isn't symmetric
nor balanced like a spear or a rocket making _keeping_ it going once
it got started quite a trick. The entrance velocity being sufficient
after the traveled distance is a neat trick. Would need to see the
whole area in context to have any chance at all of figuring out what
actually happened. It's never been amplified that I'm aware, but I'd
kinda' lean towards the scenario being the work was going on at second
floor or eave height so it was actually falling most of the way after
launch even though above grade where it fell. But that's purely
conjecture. Try even through a piece of moulding like that as a
javelin -- it isn't real easy to keep it from going sideways and then
air resistance knocks it down very quickly. I still wonder if the
whole thing isn't faked/hoax, frankly, even though the OP claims not...

--

But they would not be using the molding until the house (assumed) was
closed in. ...

Maybe, but not necessarily -- could be under a soffit or similar. I'd
also give real credence to a workstation set up on an exterior deck even
for interior trim work...

The kids trick is also a possibility, but once OP indicated this was an
upper-level addition to the house which is also on an upward slope, the
likelihood that it came down from over there became much, much higher in
my estimation. That it is also an occupied house being remodeled cuts
down the kids theory I think (unless their the neighbors' own, maybe?)
'cause they would have had to had access to the house I think to get
high enough to launch.

Anyway, it's all too much conjecture as OP seems to only throw out a few
ancillary tidbits now and then rather than trying to fully lay out the
overall situation at the git-go if he were really interested in trying
to get to the bottom of the incident.

Again, imo and it's all worth everything anyone has paid...and, man! I'm
hard up for something entertaining for the day...

--

Shaun Eli wrote:
First of all, I know that the photos weren't faked because I took
them. Obviously I can't prove to you that they're real... but a
police officer, a police detective and the village building inspector,
as well as my neighbors, did see the board sticking out of my wall.



It appears to me, because of the outward collapse of the inside wall and
the splinters of the shingle towards the outside, that the molding was
'placed' there from the inside of the house.

wrote:

Shaun Eli wrote:

First of all, I know that the photos weren't faked because I took
them. Obviously I can't prove to you that they're real... but a
police officer, a police detective and the village building inspector,
as well as my neighbors, did see the board sticking out of my wall.



It appears to me, because of the outward collapse of the inside wall
and the splinters of the shingle towards the outside, that the molding
was 'placed' there from the inside of the house.

The stick is coming in behind a bookcase, just above the baseboard heat
register......how would anyone have pointed the stick upward from that
location. Didn't look to me like it came from inside - the
wallboard/skim coat and paint broke away on the surface.

In article , (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:
In article , "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
1 HP isn't a huge amount and a saw blade doesn't have a
huge mass. Kickback can certainly hurl a chunk of
wood across the room/shop. But it takes a lot of energy
to throw what looks to be a sizable piece of molding
across a construction site -- 7.5 feet vertical and
50ft plus horizontal, apparently.

The horsepower of the motor doesn't matter much in this
kind of scenario -- the stored energy in the spinning
blade is what matters. And I don't think that would be
sufficient. But that's why I asked for the OP's estimate
of the mass of that molding. I'm guessing it's at least
a couple of pounds.

But what you think and what really happens are entirely different.
Experience a good kickback and you'll be a believer. I've seen wood put
through metal garage doors. Traveling at 100+ mph can do some damage.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584...demonstration/
http://www.newwoodworker.com/kickback.html

Those videos depict exactly what I would expect. It looks
a much smaller piece of wood and it travelled just a few
feet.

Oh, come on! The piece of wood in the first video travelled "just a few feet"
because it hit a sheet of plywood on the opposite side of the shop! Can't you
imagine that it would have gone much farther than it did, if there hadn't been
something in the way? Good grief.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , (Doug Miller) wrote:

Oh, come on! The piece of wood in the first video travelled "just a few feet"
because it hit a sheet of plywood on the opposite side of the shop! Can't you
imagine that it would have gone much farther than it did, if there hadn't been
something in the way? Good grief.

It didn't penetrate the plywood, did it?

The OP's molding penetrated shingles, insulation and
drywall. And that was at a range of 50ft!

Sure the wood in the video would have gone farther. But
not much before the effect of gravity drove it to the
ground. Maybe 10ft, maybe even 20ft, but nothing close
to 50ft, IMO.

Such a free-flying projectile is decelerating in the
horizontal plane and it's accelerating rapidly in the
vertical.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message

It didn't penetrate the plywood, did it?

The OP's molding penetrated shingles, insulation and
drywall. And that was at a range of 50ft!

Sure the wood in the video would have gone farther. But
not much before the effect of gravity drove it to the
ground. Maybe 10ft, maybe even 20ft, but nothing close
to 50ft, IMO.

Such a free-flying projectile is decelerating in the
horizontal plane and it's accelerating rapidly in the
vertical.

Plywood is harder to penetrate than a shingle, the flying piece was not
shaped the same, but it did travel at over 108 mph. How about you stand in
back of the saw and try to catch it?

According to dpb :
Chris Lewis wrote:
According to dpb :

The problem w/ this piece is managing to get it to fly straight for any
distance. Must've happened, but surely a fluke. I'd suspect in a
hundred tries however it got launched wouldn't do that again...

I've had occasions to watch the behaviour of long flexible objects in
air (don't ask ;-), they tend to "flap" unless flung perfectly straight,
but they'll eventually straighten out. The "stable" configuration
is usually falling flat (broadside to direction of travel), but before
it gets there it may progress through "spear" orientation several times ;-)

I suspect that with a bit of practise and adjustment for
distance and angle you can get it to do that a lot better than
once out of 100. But your accuracy would probably suck.

It seems highly unlikely that this didn't "just happen" from the
construction site. How, I've no real clue w/o being able to see it, but
if, as OP wrote it's something like 50-ft to the rear fence plus the
distance to a work area where it might have gotten launched by a table
saw, it's a real puzzle it would fly so straight so far imo. Your
rockets, spears, etc., are symmetric and designed specifically for
stability--this is none of the above. In wind-field incidents, there's
a continuing force that helps. One presumes this was simply launched
somehow. Again, strange things happen...

I don't think it necessarily flew straight at all. It merely
needed to be oriented the right way at impact. Besides, given how
much the trim probably weighed, it'd fly relatively straight at least
for a while.

Try launching a 2x4 with a bungie cord or some other way that
imparts energy along the long axis. I'll bet it'll go 50'
or more and stay relatively straight. Despite the fact that that
orientation is not stable. Broadside is.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Malcolm Hoar :
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

Oh, come on! The piece of wood in the first video travelled "just a few feet"
because it hit a sheet of plywood on the opposite side of the shop! Can't you
imagine that it would have gone much farther than it did, if there
hadn't been
something in the way? Good grief.

It didn't penetrate the plywood, did it?

It might have if the plywood was mounted so that it couldn't
move on impact, and plywood is tougher than years old brittle
cedar shingle or drywall.

Note also that this is a different kind of kickback than you'd
see with ripping a chunk of trim (the photo wasn't good enough
to tell for sure, but it looked as if it may have been ripped).

A lot of the energy imparted to the chunk of plywood was
rotational. Not to mention that the cross-sectional area
in the direction of travel was more than the trim would be.

A kickback like that is relatively safe to demonstrate. A
pure longitudinal kickback is more dangerous, and imparts
virtually all of the energy in the direction of travel.

If you're ripping a piece of trim that has an convex back,
it'd just take the trim rotating a bit (around the long
axis) to jam between the blade and fence and get flung straight.

The OP's molding penetrated shingles, insulation and
drywall. And that was at a range of 50ft!

A human arm can do it easily with a blunt spear, and could
probably also do it if the chunk of trim was thrown carefully
enough to stay relatively straight. A table saw has
more power than a human arm.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :
Shaun Eli wrote:
First of all, I know that the photos weren't faked because I took
them. Obviously I can't prove to you that they're real... but a
police officer, a police detective and the village building inspector,
as well as my neighbors, did see the board sticking out of my wall.

It appears to me, because of the outward collapse of the inside wall and
the splinters of the shingle towards the outside, that the molding was
'placed' there from the inside of the house.

I don't see any shingle splinters. The drywall was clearly
"blown out" from _within_ the wall with the debris thrown into
the house. Notice how the paper was ripped and some of it hanging
- pushed towards the inside of the house.

Given the angle of the impact, and how near the inside floor it was,
it would have had to have been bent to insert it from inside the house,
and that amount of bending would almost undoubtably have broken the trim.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Malcolm Hoar :
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
(Malcolm Hoar)
wrote:

What is mystifying is how the projectile was launched in
the first place. I have a hard time believing a saw of any
kind would be able to transfer sufficient energy to the
molding. I don't think a saw or other tool accident would
have resulted in this "angle of attack" either.

Google "table saw kickback" and perhaps you won't have quite such a hard time
believing it. :-)

Tip speed of a 10" table saw blade is about 110 mph.
Motors in the type of table saw found on job sites are typically in the 0.75
to 1.5 HP range.

1 HP isn't a huge amount and a saw blade doesn't have a
huge mass. Kickback can certainly hurl a chunk of
wood across the room/shop. But it takes a lot of energy
to throw what looks to be a sizable piece of molding
across a construction site -- 7.5 feet vertical and
50ft plus horizontal, apparently.

1HP is more than a human arm, and a human arm could do it.

[Note also that it appears that house the trim came from
is three stories, and the work was being done on the third
floor. So, chances are the trim "came down" from the third
floor, not up from ground level.]

The horsepower of the motor doesn't matter much in this
kind of scenario -- the stored energy in the spinning
blade is what matters. And I don't think that would be
sufficient. But that's why I asked for the OP's estimate
of the mass of that molding. I'm guessing it's at least
a couple of pounds.

Er, no. First, you're forgetting the mass of the arbor
and motor armature. That's a lot more than the blade.

Secondly, of course the horsepower matters a lot, because
that's going to exert a _lot_ of power as the blade jams
as part of the kickback.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
....

I don't think it necessarily flew straight at all. It merely
needed to be oriented the right way at impact. Besides, given how
much the trim probably weighed, it'd fly relatively straight at least
for a while.
....

I don't think that a likely scenario at all -- not impossible, but
unlikely. Being light, if it got crossways to direction of travel, it
would flutter and slow down extremely quickly imo. What I'm now
suspecting is more likely is that it actually fell mostly given the
description of the upper story being added...

--

According to Shaun Eli :
I think that the molding was ripped and that's why it was scrap-- they
used only a portion of it. Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure it
was wood as it was rather light for an eight foot (give or take)
piece. Do they make plastic molding that looks like wood?

They make PVC, foam and MDF moldings.

PVC molding is quite "floppy" and solid color (usually white) throughout.
If you handled it, I think it would have been almost impossible not to
notice it was plastic, and it weighs considerably more than pine. I
don't think it can be flung in such a way to stay straight.
It'd be almost like trying to fling cooked spaghetti. Indeed,
it wouldn't be sticking straight out of your wall, it'd be
at least partially "flopped", if not draped right against
the wall after it'd seen the sun for a few minutes.

PVC molding is generally not made in particularly large sizes,
and it generally isn't very attractive. Most often quarter
round or inside (cove) molding, but there are 2" or so baseboard
moldings commonly available. Larger moldings are available, but
a lot rarer.

You'd normally use PVC in places where you're worried about dampness.
I've used it in a basement bedroom, and trimming out a built-in work
bench used for wine making in a basement utility room - don't have to
worry about stains.

Since PVC trim is solid color throughout, it wouldn't show
the "wood colored edge" your pictures seem to show.

I've not handled foam moldings, but I don't think you could miss it if
you handled it either. Very light. I'd assume it would be much more
floppy than PVC. It sometimes comes in rolls. It'd be impossible
to drive it through cedar at any even marginally probable scenario,
and if you could, it'd probably be draped right down the face of the
shingles. It'd be blowing in the breeze.

There is a lightweight MDF trim as well as a more "normal" weight MDF.
The former is lighter than pine, and the latter is considerably
heavier. (The light stuff might not "officially" be MDF, but it's
called that). Pre-primed MDF trim of both types is _very_ common
and quite cheap - usually considerably less expensive than "real wood"
moldings. (I've used rather a lot of the stuff, because it's cheap
and machines/paints well. But it's inadvisable in damp areas.)

MDF is more "floppy" than pine, but not so floppy that it couldn't
be flung like pine trim could. It would appear rigid when stuck in
something.

If you saw "under" the MDF priming (eg: ripped edge), the cut edge would
look much like (in color) what your pictures seem to indicate.

Note, however, that the pre-primed MDF trim I've used is not
primed on the back, and people generally don't paint the back
of their trim. Your stuff appeared to be primed on the back.

There are also a few types of "wrapped" trim. Most usually finger
joint pine or MDF that have what you'd describe as a paper or
foil wrap on the "good side". Usually advertised as "pre-finished
trim", usually either plain white or a oak grain pattern on MDF.
But if you handled it, I think it'd be difficult to miss. The
wrap generally doesn't extend more than 1/8" or so around the
back, and your trim doesn't look like that.

I did leave the detective a message but he hasn't called me back yet.
I'm reasonably sure that if I call him next week I'll be able to reach
him. I live in a small town and it's not like he's too busy
investigating murders to bother talking to me about molding. Plus, he
found it a bit interesting as he said he's worked construction.

If he calls, suggest "saw kickback or thrown from the third floor" and
see what he thinks of that idea.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to dpb :
Chris Lewis wrote:

I don't think it necessarily flew straight at all. It merely
needed to be oriented the right way at impact. Besides, given how
much the trim probably weighed, it'd fly relatively straight at least
for a while.

I don't think that a likely scenario at all -- not impossible, but
unlikely. Being light, if it got crossways to direction of travel, it
would flutter and slow down extremely quickly imo.

MDF trim is quite heavy. Thrown lengthwise with no initial
sideways component and minimal flex, it'll go quite a distance
before destablizing. But destablizing is inevitable (if it doesn't
hit the dirt first) and will probably be quite abrupt. Destablizing
will occur earlier for wider trim (width versus length ratios
count!). That didn't look particularly wide.

Try throwing, say, a 8' piece of 1x10 lengthwise. It's possible to
keep it flying straight for a moderate distance without too much
difficulty. Try the same with a 8' 2x4 - it'll go farther before
destablizing. That piece of trim would fly a lot better than a 1x10,
and worse than a 2x4.

Directional stability can sometimes be rather complicated.

For example, I have a small/fattish (low and slow) rocket that
behaves rather wierdly. By the rules, it should be too close
to unstable and potentially dance around the area at launch. CP
is too far forward relative to CG.

[It was a very early rocket, I didn't know any better at the
time I built it.]

Under power or initial coast it flys dead straight - super reliable. So
reliable, in fact, that I use it for rocket demos at elementary schools.
Low and slow enough it can be fired with the largest Estes motor
available (maximizing the ooh and ah factor) and can be easily seen by
even the kindergardeners, and yet it's so light it can't hurt anyone and
will reliably land within even a small school field.

If it fails to deploy the recovery (chute), it falls flat
(broadside) after peak altitude. (which is a plus for safety)

Rockets generally can't do both. Fellow rocketers have difficulty
believing it when they see it, and yell at me for flying an unstable
rocket. But there's never been a hint of instability under
boost or coast.

[Estes made a rocket which was essentially an inflated
mylar "sausage" balloon. It does fly straight (sorta ;-),
and just floats down when the boost quits.]

As long as there's no cross push on the stick of trim, it can
be modelled as a short object with a lot of mass and a very
small cross-section. Once it gets some sidepush, it'll start
to go off course, and the effect will rapidly increase because
of the high side area.

It also occurred to me that with a kickback, there might
be a significant rotation along the long axis - spin stability.
It'll rapidly decrease given the surface area, but initially
it'd help it go straight.

Spinstability would be very difficult hand-thrown.

What I'm now
suspecting is more likely is that it actually fell mostly given the
description of the upper story being added...

Makes both hand-thrown or saw kickback more plausible at that distance.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Just spoke to the detective. He said it was #2 pine and that it was
ripped. He didn't remember any particularly obvious gouge marks. He
said that the building inspector was the one who checked out the job
site but that he remembers a table saw but it was downstairs, not on
the third floor.

At this point I'm not sure the third floor even had a floor yet.

Thanks for all the help.

-Shaun

Photos and more information he

http://www.ivyleaguecomedy.com/mystery.html

Is it just me, or does the angle in the first picture not match the
angle in the 2nd picture? Could be an optical illusion...

On Nov 23, 12:22 pm, Larry Bud wrote:
Photos and more information he

http://www.ivyleaguecomedy.com/mystery.html

Is it just me, or does the angle in the first picture not match the
angle in the 2nd picture? Could be an optical illusion...

It does look that way, but it's just an illusion. The first picture
was taken from my deck which is above the height of the molding, and
from the side.

The second photo was taken from the ground looking up at the molding,
farther back.

In article , (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

Oh, come on! The piece of wood in the first video travelled "just a few feet"
because it hit a sheet of plywood on the opposite side of the shop! Can't you
imagine that it would have gone much farther than it did, if there hadn't been
something in the way? Good grief.

It didn't penetrate the plywood, did it?

It wasn't shaped like a spear, was it?

The OP's molding penetrated shingles, insulation and
drywall. And that was at a range of 50ft!

Shingles, insulation, and drywall are not nearly as sturdy as a sheet of what
appeared to be 3/4" ply.

Sure the wood in the video would have gone farther. But
not much before the effect of gravity drove it to the
ground. Maybe 10ft, maybe even 20ft, but nothing close
to 50ft, IMO.

Perhaps you'd care to do the computations. V[i] = 110 mph.

Such a free-flying projectile is decelerating in the
horizontal plane and it's accelerating rapidly in the
vertical.

Kickback occurs when the wood comes in contact with the teeth at the *back* of
the blade, which are *rising* -- causing the initial launch vector to have a
small, but measurable, upward component. Watch the video again. The board
struck the plywood at a noticeably greater height than the top of the table
saw.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Shaun Eli wrote:
On Nov 23, 12:22 pm, Larry Bud wrote:
Photos and more information he
http://www.ivyleaguecomedy.com/mystery.html
Is it just me, or does the angle in the first picture not match the
angle in the 2nd picture? Could be an optical illusion...

It does look that way, but it's just an illusion. The first picture
was taken from my deck which is above the height of the molding, and
from the side.

The second photo was taken from the ground looking up at the molding,
farther back.

terrorism