I am installing a cellphone antenna at a country cabin. The cabin has a
steep "A" frame roof (metal) with dormers that stick out about 10' below the
peak. In addition, the cabin has metal siding all around the base, to a
height of about 12'.

I will install a vertical pole at the end of one of the dormers, with a 30"
Yagi cell phone antenna mounted on it. The pole will be attached to the
side of the dormer, with clamps screwed into the side of the facia and trim
boards, and will rise about 3' over the roofing of the dormer (also metal).
The antenna height will still be 7 or 8 feet below the peak of the roof.
Coax will run from the antenna to a signal booster inside the cabin.

While looking at the antenna installation instructions, I noted that
grounding is recommended for all installations. Trying to determine the
best way to do this, or if it is necessary at all. The cabin is in a canyon
in WA state. Lightning is a rarity, it's in a canyon about 200' below
adjacent ridge, and the metal roof of the cabin is a lot higher than the
antenna.... I anticipate using a wooden pole for the mounting of the
antenna, if that has bearing as well.

Q's on this project:

1. Is wooden pole optimal? Would metal or fiberglass be better? I only
need to elevate the antenna about 3' off the dormer. I was avoiding metal
because I thought it would generate further grounding issues. The protected
location makes wind a non-factor for pole material choice - i.e. doesn't
need to withstand high winds.

2. If I do run a ground wire, it would have to run down the side of the
cabin to (I presume) a big metal rod in the ground. The wire itself would
have to be attached to the side of the cabin, which is also metal. Would
this be just increasing a risk of electrifying the place if a strike was to
occur? Or would the wire need to be held away (via insulating material?)
from the metal siding?

Advice appreciated.

On Nov 19, 11:27 am, "Mamba" wrote:
I am installing a cellphone antenna at a country cabin. The cabin has a
steep "A" frame roof (metal) with dormers that stick out about 10' below the
peak. In addition, the cabin has metal siding all around the base, to a
height of about 12'.

I will install a vertical pole at the end of one of the dormers, with a 30"
Yagi cell phone antenna mounted on it. The pole will be attached to the
side of the dormer, with clamps screwed into the side of the facia and trim
boards, and will rise about 3' over the roofing of the dormer (also metal).
The antenna height will still be 7 or 8 feet below the peak of the roof.
Coax will run from the antenna to a signal booster inside the cabin.

While looking at the antenna installation instructions, I noted that
grounding is recommended for all installations. Trying to determine the
best way to do this, or if it is necessary at all. The cabin is in a canyon
in WA state. Lightning is a rarity, it's in a canyon about 200' below
adjacent ridge, and the metal roof of the cabin is a lot higher than the
antenna.... I anticipate using a wooden pole for the mounting of the
antenna, if that has bearing as well.

Q's on this project:

1. Is wooden pole optimal? Would metal or fiberglass be better?

Normally antennas like this come with a u-bolt clamp intended to be
fastened to a metal pole. That pole is then part of the ground
system and connected to the ground wire. That's how I would do it.



I only
need to elevate the antenna about 3' off the dormer. I was avoiding metal
because I thought it would generate further grounding issues.

It doesn't.


The protected
location makes wind a non-factor for pole material choice - i.e. doesn't
need to withstand high winds.

2. If I do run a ground wire, it would have to run down the side of the
cabin to (I presume) a big metal rod in the ground. The wire itself would
have to be attached to the side of the cabin, which is also metal. Would
this be just increasing a risk of electrifying the place if a strike was to
occur? Or would the wire need to be held away (via insulating material?)
from the metal siding?


I would think running the ground wire to a proper ground rod along the
outside metal siding would not be a problem. If the antenna takes a
strike, the path of least resistance is going to be straight down the
ground wire. And you already have the possibility of a lightning
strike hitting the metal roof or siding right now, with or without the
antenna. I don't see insulators doing you any good. A lightning
strike is huge volts/amps. Any reasonable insulator, even a dry one
let alone one exposed and wet, is going to be easily overcome. You
should minimize the bends/turns in the ground wire. And the cable
should have a grounded lightning arrestor connected to it where it
enters the building.



Advice appreciated.

On Nov 19, 11:50 am, wrote:
On Nov 19, 11:27 am, "Mamba" wrote:





I am installing a cellphone antenna at a country cabin. The cabin has a
steep "A" frame roof (metal) with dormers that stick out about 10' below the
peak. In addition, the cabin has metal siding all around the base, to a
height of about 12'.

I will install a vertical pole at the end of one of the dormers, with a 30"
Yagi cell phone antenna mounted on it. The pole will be attached to the
side of the dormer, with clamps screwed into the side of the facia and trim
boards, and will rise about 3' over the roofing of the dormer (also metal).
The antenna height will still be 7 or 8 feet below the peak of the roof.
Coax will run from the antenna to a signal booster inside the cabin.

While looking at the antenna installation instructions, I noted that
grounding is recommended for all installations. Trying to determine the
best way to do this, or if it is necessary at all. The cabin is in a canyon
in WA state. Lightning is a rarity, it's in a canyon about 200' below
adjacent ridge, and the metal roof of the cabin is a lot higher than the
antenna.... I anticipate using a wooden pole for the mounting of the
antenna, if that has bearing as well.

Q's on this project:

1. Is wooden pole optimal? Would metal or fiberglass be better?

Normally antennas like this come with a u-bolt clamp intended to be
fastened to a metal pole. That pole is then part of the ground
system and connected to the ground wire. That's how I would do it.

I only

need to elevate the antenna about 3' off the dormer. I was avoiding metal
because I thought it would generate further grounding issues.

It doesn't.

The protected

location makes wind a non-factor for pole material choice - i.e. doesn't
need to withstand high winds.

2. If I do run a ground wire, it would have to run down the side of the
cabin to (I presume) a big metal rod in the ground. The wire itself would
have to be attached to the side of the cabin, which is also metal. Would
this be just increasing a risk of electrifying the place if a strike was to
occur? Or would the wire need to be held away (via insulating material?)
from the metal siding?

I would think running the ground wire to a proper ground rod along the
outside metal siding would not be a problem. If the antenna takes a
strike, the path of least resistance is going to be straight down the
ground wire. And you already have the possibility of a lightning
strike hitting the metal roof or siding right now, with or without the
antenna. I don't see insulators doing you any good. A lightning
strike is huge volts/amps. Any reasonable insulator, even a dry one
let alone one exposed and wet, is going to be easily overcome. You
should minimize the bends/turns in the ground wire. And the cable
should have a grounded lightning arrestor connected to it where it
enters the building.





Advice appreciated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This Product is getting huge attention now look Snag those Energy Tax
Credits
Any qualified energy-saving installation or improvement made by
December 31, 2007 will earn you varying degrees of tax credit on this
year's tax return. You'll need to file Form 5695, available on the IRS
website.


The Power-Save(tm) 1200 Energy Saver

The Power-Save 1200(tm) energy saver is responsible for thousands of
Americans saving millions of combined dollars on their utility bills!
The Power-Save 1200(tm) saves families as much as 25% on their electric
bill every month without sacrificing normal energy consumption and the
comforts it provides.

Everyone who has an electric bill should own a Power-Save 1200(tm) energy
saver!

---- Reduces electrical bills up to 25% per month
---- Increases motor and appliance life
---- UL Tested and Listed
---- Eliminates power surges
---- Reduces 'noise' in the electrical system

http://www.powersavemi.com/

Do not forget the deadline for the Federal Tax Credit for energy
saving home equipment is the end of 2007.


Its even talked about with http://energyboomer.typepad.com/ and
BobVila http://www.bobvila.com/OnTheLevel/Sn...tml#comment150

Mamba wrote:
I am installing a cellphone antenna at a country cabin. The cabin has a
steep "A" frame roof (metal) with dormers that stick out about 10' below the
peak. In addition, the cabin has metal siding all around the base, to a
height of about 12'.

I will install a vertical pole at the end of one of the dormers, with a 30"
Yagi cell phone antenna mounted on it. The pole will be attached to the
side of the dormer, with clamps screwed into the side of the facia and trim
boards, and will rise about 3' over the roofing of the dormer (also metal).
The antenna height will still be 7 or 8 feet below the peak of the roof.
Coax will run from the antenna to a signal booster inside the cabin.

While looking at the antenna installation instructions, I noted that
grounding is recommended for all installations. Trying to determine the
best way to do this, or if it is necessary at all. The cabin is in a canyon
in WA state. Lightning is a rarity, it's in a canyon about 200' below
adjacent ridge, and the metal roof of the cabin is a lot higher than the
antenna.... I anticipate using a wooden pole for the mounting of the
antenna, if that has bearing as well.

Q's on this project:

1. Is wooden pole optimal? Would metal or fiberglass be better? I only
need to elevate the antenna about 3' off the dormer. I was avoiding metal
because I thought it would generate further grounding issues. The protected
location makes wind a non-factor for pole material choice - i.e. doesn't
need to withstand high winds.

2. If I do run a ground wire, it would have to run down the side of the
cabin to (I presume) a big metal rod in the ground. The wire itself would
have to be attached to the side of the cabin, which is also metal. Would
this be just increasing a risk of electrifying the place if a strike was to
occur? Or would the wire need to be held away (via insulating material?)
from the metal siding?

Advice appreciated.



At the very least you will want to have a grounding block connected to a
proper earth ground as close to the building entry point as possible.
Depending on what sort of coax you are using a block such as used for
satellite antenna or cable TV may be suitable (and cheap). Otherwise you
may have to hunt for a suitable block but you _really_ do need one. If
you do have any sort of an insurance claim that might be even vaguely
related to the antenna installation you can be sure that the insurance
company's investigator will be looking for one.

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 11:50 am, wrote:
On Nov 19, 11:27 am, "Mamba" wrote:

My interest in buying your product is as strong as the relation of your
spammed topic to the thread.
And oh yes, you're an @ss.

"John McGaw" wrote in message
...

At the very least you will want to have a grounding block connected to a
proper earth ground as close to the building entry point as possible.
Depending on what sort of coax you are using a block such as used for
satellite antenna or cable TV may be suitable (and cheap). Otherwise you
may have to hunt for a suitable block but you _really_ do need one. If
you do have any sort of an insurance claim that might be even vaguely
related to the antenna installation you can be sure that the insurance
company's investigator will be looking for one.

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

This posting gives me pause. The coax I have purchased is a special
ultra-low loss 20' length with special proprietary connectors for the
antenna and the cell phone amp at each end. I would need to cut it to add
generic connectors at both sides of a grounding block. Darn, I expect the
extra noise introduced by adding connections to it would degrade the signal
to the point where it would be unusable - the improvement I get with my
tests using the antenna just barely gives me enough signal for cell calls.

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

On Nov 19, 4:07�pm, wrote:
Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

connect ground wire to main house ground if there is one, or install
ground rod, and run ground wire from antenna to new ground rod and
main house ground and plumbing, assuming outdoor plumbing is metal

On Nov 19, 4:07�pm, wrote:
Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

i would NOT mess with the ultra low loss coax under any circumstance!

"Mamba" wrote in message
. ..
I am installing a cellphone antenna at a country cabin. The cabin has a
steep "A" frame roof (metal) with dormers that stick out about 10' below
the
peak. In addition, the cabin has metal siding all around the base, to a
height of about 12'.


Your metal roof and siding may actually get in the way. I'm not talking
lightning here, but cell phone signals. They may bounce them all over the
place. Look up ham radio sites related to yagi antennas in the 800-1000 mHz
range. Also, any leafy trees nearby? They're RF sponges.

Hopefully you're not trying to hook up to an analog system. The FCC has
given the OK to cell co's to turn off analog systems on 2/18/08. They're not
required to, just allowed to.

OP can add a amplifier too for greater range and power..........

wrote in message
...
Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Couple of more questions then....

I'll be running the wire down the outside of the house, over metal siding.
Will need to bolt/clamp it to the side of the house since it will be a 10' +
run. Do I need special clamps to try to keep the wire off the wall?

Also, what gauge wire is recommended? Is there a special designation for
grounding wire that the folks at the supply store will know (and obviously I
don't).

Thanks again

On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection. If
there were even a nearby lightning strike, the antenna could wind up
with thousands of volts and that energy is going to go down the coax
and into your cell phone.

Every outside antenna installation picture from manuals and similar
I've ever seen shows both grounding the mast and using an arrestor on
the cable where it enters the building. Did you look in the
instructions for the antenna you have?







Couple of more questions then....

I'll be running the wire down the outside of the house, over metal siding.
Will need to bolt/clamp it to the side of the house since it will be a 10' +
run. Do I need special clamps to try to keep the wire off the wall?

Also, what gauge wire is recommended? Is there a special designation for
grounding wire that the folks at the supply store will know (and obviously I
don't).

Thanks again

On Nov 20, 8:57�am, wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:





wrote in message

.. .

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. �I'll do it this way. �Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. � What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection. � �If
there were even a nearby lightning strike, the antenna could wind up
with thousands of volts and that energy is going to go down the coax
and into your cell phone.

Every outside antenna installation picture from manuals and similar
I've ever seen shows both grounding the mast and using an arrestor on
the cable where it enters the building. �Did you look in the
instructions for the antenna you have?





Couple of more questions then....

I'll be running the wire down the outside of the house, over metal siding.
Will need to bolt/clamp it to the side of the house since it will be a 10' +
run. �Do I need special clamps to try to keep the wire off the wall?

Also, what gauge wire is recommended? �Is there a special designation for
grounding wire that the folks at the supply store will know (and obviously I
don't).

Thanks again- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

look for practical purposes its impossible to ground a yagi cell
antenna properly unless you can find a grounding block designed
specifically for cell phone antennas, I have never seen one
. not only that but keeping the ground wire away from the metal siding
is meaningless too.

a nearby lightning strike will electrify everything, and fry all the
electronics too.

sometimes there just so much you can do. I wouldnt recommend taking on
the cell phone during a electrical storm, I would unplug the phone
from the antenna.

but you should never talk on a regular phone during lightning either.

On Nov 20, 10:00Â*am, " wrote:
On Nov 20, 8:57�am, wrote:





On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:

wrote in message

.. .

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. �I'll do it this way. �Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. � What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection. � �If
there were even a nearby lightning strike, the antenna could wind up
with thousands of volts and that energy is going to go down the coax
and into your cell phone.

Every outside antenna installation picture from manuals and similar
I've ever seen shows both grounding the mast and using an arrestor on
the cable where it enters the building. �Did you look in the
instructions for the antenna you have?

Couple of more questions then....

I'll be running the wire down the outside of the house, over metal siding.
Will need to bolt/clamp it to the side of the house since it will be a 10' +
run. �Do I need special clamps to try to keep the wire off the wall?

Also, what gauge wire is recommended? �Is there a special designation for
grounding wire that the folks at the supply store will know (and obviously I
don't).

Thanks again- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

look for practical purposes its impossible to ground a yagi cell
antenna properly unless you can find a grounding block designed
specifically for cell phone antennas, I have never seen one

Just because you have never seen one doesn't make violating NEC and
not using an arrestor OK. I'm sure suitable arrestors exist. Also
there are a variety of adaptors that can adapt various coax to various
connectors.



. not only that but keeping the ground wire away from the metal siding
is meaningless too.

That I agree with.



a nearby lightning strike will electrify everything, and fry all the
electronics too.

It likely will if the antenna is not properly grounded or there is no
arrestor on the cable. Otherwise, if the antenna, power, utilities,
etc are properly grounded and protected, it's unlikely a nearby stike
will electrify everything and fry all the electronics inside a house.



sometimes there just so much you can do. I wouldnt recommend taking on
the cell phone during a electrical storm, I would unplug the phone
from the antenna.

That still leaves the antenna high on the roof with a cable with no
arrestor going into your house. You may be OK with that, but the NEC
isn't. Also, I'm not sure what an insurance company might do come
claim time if the house was burned down from a lightning strike
attributable to a homeowner install that clealy violates NEC.






but you should never talk on a regular phone during lightning either.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.

wrote in :

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If
you want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom
or the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the
boom and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground
driven rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be
able to use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod
close to grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach
a short jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between
safety and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.



but is what the Yagi *mounted on* grounded? (not the cable shield,a REAL
ground.)
if you bolt an antenna tripod or chimney mount on your roof,they will need
a proper ground wire.

just depending on a cable "ground" will channel lightning into your
receiver and home.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Nov 20, 5:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

. ..

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Show me where in the NEC code it says that no arrestor is required on
a Yagi like the OP is proposing to install.

Every antenna install sheet I've ever seen requires it, as done NEC.

On 20 Nov 2007 22:54:22 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If
you want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom
or the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the
boom and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground
driven rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be
able to use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod
close to grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach
a short jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between
safety and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.



but is what the Yagi *mounted on* grounded? (not the cable shield,a REAL
ground.)
if you bolt an antenna tripod or chimney mount on your roof,they will need
a proper ground wire.

just depending on a cable "ground" will channel lightning into your
receiver and home.

Didn't what I said aboveground the mast or boom?

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:54:02 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 20, 5:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

. ..

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Show me where in the NEC code it says that no arrestor is required on
a Yagi like the OP is proposing to install.

Every antenna install sheet I've ever seen requires it, as done NEC.

A lightning arrestor is different than grounding the antenna.


Grounding the antenna may stop a house fire from starting. That is
the idea. It's suppose to direct a lightning strike to ground without
going through your house. It may or may not do this. There is no
guarantee.

Grounding is also suppose to drain static to the ground an possibly
stop noise on a receiver.

Grounding will also reduce surge currents from going down the
coax center lead and damaging your electronics if a lightning strike
hits near your installation but misses it. An arrestor is inline with
the coax center conductor and shunts the same surge current to the
outer conductor during a near miss lightning strike.

No amount of arresting or grounding will protect the receiver or
amplifier with a direct hit. If you get a direct hit you'll be tossing
the electronics into the trash. The best scenario during a direct hit
is to just protect the house from starting on fire. That can be
accomplished with grounding, not arresting.

wrote in :

On 20 Nov 2007 22:54:22 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

wrote in
m:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire
from the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the
ground. If you want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire
to the boom or the mount of the antenna and run the wire
perpendicular to the boom and away from the antenna down the
wooden mast. The ground driven rod is ideally eight foot long
but it is unlikely you'll be able to use the full length. If
possible drive the ground rod close to grounded plumbing like
your outside water spigot. Attach a short jumper to the plumbing
also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between
safety and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable
and doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.



but is what the Yagi *mounted on* grounded? (not the cable shield,a
REAL ground.)
if you bolt an antenna tripod or chimney mount on your roof,they will
need a proper ground wire.

just depending on a cable "ground" will channel lightning into your
receiver and home.

Didn't what I said aboveground the mast or boom?


Not necessarily.
Uninformed homeowners might not know to ground the mast/boom/antenna
mount,or figure they can get by without it.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

snip
Not necessarily.
Uninformed homeowners might not know to ground the mast/boom/antenna
mount,or figure they can get by without it.

Grounding just the mast would automatically ground the whole
system regardless of a home owners understanding of the system.
Why? Because the boom, mount, coax outer shield, and mast
are all electrically the same. Grounding the mast as I stated,
would automatically ground everything. It's dummy proof.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:54:02 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 20, 5:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

. ..

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If
you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the
boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able
to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between
safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -


Show me where in the NEC code it says that no arrestor is required on
a Yagi like the OP is proposing to install.

Every antenna install sheet I've ever seen requires it, as done NEC.

A lightning arrestor is different than grounding the antenna.


Grounding the antenna may stop a house fire from starting. That is
the idea. It's suppose to direct a lightning strike to ground without
going through your house. It may or may not do this. There is no
guarantee.

Grounding is also suppose to drain static to the ground an possibly
stop noise on a receiver.

Grounding will also reduce surge currents from going down the
coax center lead and damaging your electronics if a lightning strike
hits near your installation but misses it. An arrestor is inline with
the coax center conductor and shunts the same surge current to the
outer conductor during a near miss lightning strike.

No amount of arresting or grounding will protect the receiver or
amplifier with a direct hit. If you get a direct hit you'll be tossing
the electronics into the trash. The best scenario during a direct hit
is to just protect the house from starting on fire. That can be
accomplished with grounding, not arresting.


The route for a grounding wire in this application is somewhat complex. The
dormer described sticks out from the bottom of the "A" roofline about 12'
off of grade, so a ground wire from the mast would need to follow down the
outline of the dormer wall, back about 4' to the exterior wall (with metal
siding), then down vertically about 12 to a grounding rod.

As I understand it, non-vertical ground wires are less effective than
straight runs down. Curious to know if I could simply ground the mast to
the metal siding, and have a short grounding wire from the bottom of the
metal siding to the grounding rod? Use the siding as part of the ground?

wrote in :

snip
Not necessarily.
Uninformed homeowners might not know to ground the mast/boom/antenna
mount,or figure they can get by without it.

Grounding just the mast would automatically ground the whole
system regardless of a home owners understanding of the system.
Why? Because the boom, mount, coax outer shield, and mast
are all electrically the same. Grounding the mast as I stated,
would automatically ground everything. It's dummy proof.


my POINT was that they might not ground ANYTHING.
Just connect their coax and consider it done.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:05:09 -0500, wrote:
Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.

Improper generalization. Directors and reflectors, yes. Driven
element(s), not always. I have a tri-band amateur yagi that has a
floating driven element.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

"Mamba" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:54:02 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 20, 5:05 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:57:06 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:10 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

. ..

Just mount the yagi on a metal mast and run a clamped on wire
from
the bottom of the mast down to a rod driven into the ground. If
you
want to use a wooden mast then just clamp a wire to the boom or
the mount of the antenna and run the wire perpendicular to the
boom
and away from the antenna down the wooden mast. The ground
driven
rod is ideally eight foot long but it is unlikely you'll be able
to
use the full length. If possible drive the ground rod close to
grounded plumbing like your outside water spigot. Attach a short
jumper to the plumbing also.

This is the ticket. I'll do it this way. Best compromise between
safety
and signal quality.

Not according to the NEC, which requires an arrestor on the cable
and
doesn't have a compromise. What you are proposing grounds the
antenna mast, but leaves the antenna itself with no protection.

Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -


Show me where in the NEC code it says that no arrestor is required on
a Yagi like the OP is proposing to install.

Every antenna install sheet I've ever seen requires it, as done NEC.

A lightning arrestor is different than grounding the antenna.


Grounding the antenna may stop a house fire from starting. That is
the idea. It's suppose to direct a lightning strike to ground without
going through your house. It may or may not do this. There is no
guarantee.

Grounding is also suppose to drain static to the ground an possibly
stop noise on a receiver.

Grounding will also reduce surge currents from going down the
coax center lead and damaging your electronics if a lightning strike
hits near your installation but misses it. An arrestor is inline with
the coax center conductor and shunts the same surge current to the
outer conductor during a near miss lightning strike.

No amount of arresting or grounding will protect the receiver or
amplifier with a direct hit. If you get a direct hit you'll be tossing
the electronics into the trash. The best scenario during a direct hit
is to just protect the house from starting on fire. That can be
accomplished with grounding, not arresting.


The route for a grounding wire in this application is somewhat complex.
The
dormer described sticks out from the bottom of the "A" roofline about 12'
off of grade, so a ground wire from the mast would need to follow down the
outline of the dormer wall, back about 4' to the exterior wall (with metal
siding), then down vertically about 12 to a grounding rod.

As I understand it, non-vertical ground wires are less effective than
straight runs down. Curious to know if I could simply ground the mast to
the metal siding, and have a short grounding wire from the bottom of the
metal siding to the grounding rod? Use the siding as part of the ground?


Get Motorola's R-56 Standards book.

It describes proper installation and grounding methods for
communication antennas.

Using your siding as a component of the grounding system is
NOT a good idea.

The way I would do it is to connect up your antenna using
say 1/4" superflex, use a transmission line outer ground sheathing
kit, bond that ground to an external ground bus bar, also ground
to that bus bar, your Polyphaser (lightning arrestor), then use a
cadwelded ground cable from the bus bar to a ground rod (or site
perimeter ground - your main AC & telco grounds should also be
connected to that same point). You will have to pay for the "N"
connectors and superflex to use, as well as the copper bus bar.
It's more expensive than a typical "ham" or scanner enthusiast
setup. If you really want to go all out, get 7/16" DIN connectors
to alleviate passive intermod issues (or so they say).

That is the proper "industry standard" way of accomplishing the
grounding of a communications antenna.

Install it to the standards of the cellular companies and
mission critical communication sites, and you'll be fine.
May cost a bit more upfront, but it'll be done right. I've
had several of my sites take direct lightning hits in lightning
alley (FL), and the communication systems kept on working
without missing a beat. Some Polyphasers became high Z after
the hit, setting off VSWR alarms, but the on call techs got
to the site and replaced them, and the equipment was fine.
(mind you this is a multi million $$ site built from the
ground up with lightning protection in mind).

Mamba wrote:
feet below the peak of the roof. Coax will run from the antenna to a
signal booster inside the cabin.


Wrong place for the booster. It'll boost signal Plus any noise induced
by coax and connectors. Shop for an antenna with built-in booster.
They're typically powered by 12 volts dc applied to the coax from
your 'cabin' end of the run. (The single piece of coax carries the
DC power to the antenna-mounted amplifier as well as the signal
from the antenna).

You might expriment with raising the antenna above the metal
roof for best signal strength.

On 21 Nov 2007 17:08:03 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

wrote in :

snip
Not necessarily.
Uninformed homeowners might not know to ground the mast/boom/antenna
mount,or figure they can get by without it.

Grounding just the mast would automatically ground the whole
system regardless of a home owners understanding of the system.
Why? Because the boom, mount, coax outer shield, and mast
are all electrically the same. Grounding the mast as I stated,
would automatically ground everything. It's dummy proof.


my POINT was that they might not ground ANYTHING.
Just connect their coax and consider it done.

I believe I get your point now.

I mentioned that a Yagi by design is DC grounded. What I meant by
that is the component parts of the antenna assembly are electrically
connected to each other as far as DC is concerned. You assumed that
that might be taken as the end all to a grounding procedure. It is
not. You must also run a ground wire.

snip

The route for a grounding wire in this application is somewhat complex. The
dormer described sticks out from the bottom of the "A" roofline about 12'
off of grade, so a ground wire from the mast would need to follow down the
outline of the dormer wall, back about 4' to the exterior wall (with metal
siding), then down vertically about 12 to a grounding rod.

As I understand it, non-vertical ground wires are less effective than
straight runs down. Curious to know if I could simply ground the mast to
the metal siding, and have a short grounding wire from the bottom of the
metal siding to the grounding rod? Use the siding as part of the ground?

You are correct about straight runs being better. I don't know if I
would use the metal siding as a conductor. Doing that may increase
the likelihood of stray current branches entering the house.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:32:20 -0000, Art Greenberg
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:05:09 -0500, wrote:
Wrong. A Yagi by design is DC grounded. Boom and elements.

Improper generalization. Directors and reflectors, yes. Driven
element(s), not always. I have a tri-band amateur yagi that has a
floating driven element.

Some do float, but that would be rare. Assuming it floats the driven
element on a cell phone director is how long? It is barely a target.
If the structure around it is grounded (boom,mount ect.)then the
antenna is mostly protected in as much as you can actually protect it
from lightning.

wrote in :

On 21 Nov 2007 17:08:03 GMT, Jim Yanik wrote:

wrote in :

snip
Not necessarily.
Uninformed homeowners might not know to ground the mast/boom/antenna
mount,or figure they can get by without it.

Grounding just the mast would automatically ground the whole
system regardless of a home owners understanding of the system.
Why? Because the boom, mount, coax outer shield, and mast
are all electrically the same. Grounding the mast as I stated,
would automatically ground everything. It's dummy proof.


my POINT was that they might not ground ANYTHING.
Just connect their coax and consider it done.

I believe I get your point now.

I mentioned that a Yagi by design is DC grounded. What I meant by
that is the component parts of the antenna assembly are electrically
connected to each other as far as DC is concerned.

I know how Yagis are constructed,I have an ARRL Handbook,I've BUILT Yagis.

You assumed that
that might be taken as the end all to a grounding procedure.

I said nothing of the sort;that is what you read into what I posted.

It is
not. You must also run a ground wire.




--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

wrote in :

snip

The route for a grounding wire in this application is somewhat
complex. The dormer described sticks out from the bottom of the "A"
roofline about 12' off of grade, so a ground wire from the mast would
need to follow down the outline of the dormer wall, back about 4' to
the exterior wall (with metal siding), then down vertically about 12
to a grounding rod.

As I understand it, non-vertical ground wires are less effective than
straight runs down. Curious to know if I could simply ground the mast
to the metal siding, and have a short grounding wire from the bottom
of the metal siding to the grounding rod? Use the siding as part of
the ground?

You are correct about straight runs being better. I don't know if I
would use the metal siding as a conductor. Doing that may increase
the likelihood of stray current branches entering the house.


I suspect it is against electrical code to use the siding as a "ground"
in ANY manner,and a superlatively DUMB move.

there's no guarantee that each siding panel(being painted or coated!!) is
connected electrically to the adjacent panels,and there's a VERY good
chance of corrosion or high resistance,negating any grounding ability.

Most likely,any lightning strike would jump over to the nearest electrical
wiring inside the walls,or any nearby metal plumbing.
and burn down your home.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net