Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

Thanks in Advance, as always!!

-A

In article .com, Guy Noir wrote:
Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.

No bare wire??

With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

That is not correct. Grounding conductors larger than 6AWG are permitted to be
re-identified in that manner, but not 6AWG and smaller. [2005 NEC, Article
250.119]

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

No.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Guy Noir" wrote in message
oups.com...
Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??



Yes, you'll be fine. Make sure the green is continuous and no red is
visible. Isn't there an equipment grounding conductor in the box now?

On Jul 30, 1:07 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Guy Noir" wrote in message

oups.com...

Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

Yes, you'll be fine. Make sure the green is continuous and no red is
visible. Isn't there an equipment grounding conductor in the box now?

Unfortunately, no there is no bare or green conductor.

-A

According to Guy Noir :
On Jul 30, 1:07 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Guy Noir" wrote in message

oups.com...

Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

Yes, you'll be fine. Make sure the green is continuous and no red is
visible. Isn't there an equipment grounding conductor in the box now?

Unfortunately, no there is no bare or green conductor.

I'm talking from the perspective of absolutely strict code compliance
from the perspective of an anal inspector:

Legally, you can't use a black or red wire as neutral, but you
can use white for hot (with suitable marking). You can't use
any of them as ground, nor can you use a bare ground for anything
else.

In other words, you could make the black hot, white neutral, but you
can't use the red as a ground (or neutral).

Also, new/revised work has to be grounded (or equivalent).

"Or equivalent" is your back door:

1) Abandon both ends of the red conductor (cap or tape it off - someday
in the future you might need that red wire again - so don't cut
it off.)
2) use a GFCI outlet.
3) use black for hot, white for neutral on the "line" side of
the GFCI.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I'd be interested in hearing about exactly what Mr. Guy plans
to do at -each- end of the "run" before commenting on color
codes.

P

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:30:13 -0000, Guy Noir wrote:

Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

Thanks in Advance, as always!!

-A

"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Guy Noir :
On Jul 30, 1:07 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Guy Noir" wrote in message

oups.com...

Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

Yes, you'll be fine. Make sure the green is continuous and no red is
visible. Isn't there an equipment grounding conductor in the box now?

Unfortunately, no there is no bare or green conductor.

I'm talking from the perspective of absolutely strict code compliance
from the perspective of an anal inspector:

Legally, you can't use a black or red wire as neutral, but you
can use white for hot (with suitable marking). You can't use
any of them as ground, nor can you use a bare ground for anything
else.

In other words, you could make the black hot, white neutral, but you
can't use the red as a ground (or neutral).

Also, new/revised work has to be grounded (or equivalent).

"Or equivalent" is your back door:

1) Abandon both ends of the red conductor (cap or tape it off - someday
in the future you might need that red wire again - so don't cut
it off.)
2) use a GFCI outlet.
3) use black for hot, white for neutral on the "line" side of
the GFCI.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I'd recommend the OP check more carefully to see if there is indeed a
bare ground conductor in that Romex, perhaps one that was clipped flush
with the jacket for some reason by the original installer.

If the Romex has a PVC jacket vs. cloth, there should certainly be a
ground conductor in it. The print on the PVC jacket should indicate
something like 12-3 with ground. If the Romex is old enough to have a
cloth jacket then perhaps it really doesn't have a ground, though I've
seen a lot of cloth jacketed Romex that has the expected bare ground
conductor.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
....
I'd recommend the OP check more carefully to see if there is indeed a
bare ground conductor in that Romex, perhaps one that was clipped flush
with the jacket for some reason by the original installer.

If the Romex has a PVC jacket vs. cloth, there should certainly be a
ground conductor in it. The print on the PVC jacket should indicate
something like 12-3 with ground. If the Romex is old enough to have a
cloth jacket then perhaps it really doesn't have a ground, though I've
seen a lot of cloth jacketed Romex that has the expected bare ground
conductor.

And I've seen a lot of plastic-jacketed romex w/o the ground, too. It
certainly wouldn't be at all hard for all the wiring except the ends
coming out of the handy box and in the panel to be inaccessible to
check, but if can be seen, that would tell OP if he can't tell. But, if
the original installer cut it off so short he can't even tell there was
one there, it really won't help much any way, will it?

--

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
...
I'd recommend the OP check more carefully to see if there is indeed a
bare ground conductor in that Romex, perhaps one that was clipped flush
with the jacket for some reason by the original installer.

If the Romex has a PVC jacket vs. cloth, there should certainly be a
ground conductor in it. The print on the PVC jacket should indicate
something like 12-3 with ground. If the Romex is old enough to have a
cloth jacket then perhaps it really doesn't have a ground, though I've
seen a lot of cloth jacketed Romex that has the expected bare ground
conductor.

And I've seen a lot of plastic-jacketed romex w/o the ground, too. It
certainly wouldn't be at all hard for all the wiring except the ends
coming out of the handy box and in the panel to be inaccessible to
check, but if can be seen, that would tell OP if he can't tell. But, if
the original installer cut it off so short he can't even tell there was
one there, it really won't help much any way, will it?

--

It depends...

If it's original construction and it doesn't have a ground he's out of
luck.

If it's original construction and the ground was clipped short he's out
of luck unless he has some ambition for more work.

If there is a ground that was clipped short and it's in a remodel box he
can pull the box and potentially have enough slack to reterminate the
box with the ground.

If it really doesn't have a ground, but it was pulled into a remodel box
he may be able to use the wire to pull in new appropriate wire.

Pete C.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Guy Noir :
On Jul 30, 1:07 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Guy Noir" wrote in message

oups.com...

Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.
With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

Yes, you'll be fine. Make sure the green is continuous and no red is
visible. Isn't there an equipment grounding conductor in the box now?

Unfortunately, no there is no bare or green conductor.

I'm talking from the perspective of absolutely strict code compliance
from the perspective of an anal inspector:

Legally, you can't use a black or red wire as neutral, but you
can use white for hot (with suitable marking). You can't use
any of them as ground, nor can you use a bare ground for anything
else.

How exactly could using a red as a ground hurt anything?
The absolute worst senerio is that someone in the future will be working on
the circuit and find the red isn't hot like he expected, and that the ground
is missing. If he isn't bright enough to put the two together (and the
green tape has fallen off the red wire) he will have to fall back on your
suggestion, but there is no way any harm can result.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

How exactly could using a red as a ground hurt anything?

At some other point in the circuit, somebody may someday decide to connect a
hot conductor to it, perhaps.

The absolute worst senerio is that someone in the future will be working on
the circuit and find the red isn't hot like he expected, and that the ground
is missing. If he isn't bright enough to put the two together (and the
green tape has fallen off the red wire) he will have to fall back on your
suggestion, but there is no way any harm can result.

I'll agree that it's unlikely, but as they say, never say never. Categorical
statements are always false. g

In any event, whether harm can result or not is moot. It's specifically
prohibited by the NEC.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and comments folks. I truly do
appreciate the input.
To answer a few questions....

Yes, you'll be fine. Make sure the green is continuous and no red is
visible. Isn't there an equipment grounding conductor in the box now?
The outlet, and the feed to the outlet at the breaker panel, no. The
sub panel is grounded (New sub panel with proper neutral seperation,
ground, etc)

If there is a ground that was clipped short and it's in a remodel box he
can pull the box and potentially have enough slack to reterminate the
box with the ground.

No, it's a remodel job that was done and AFAIK, the ground was not
clipped, it's just not there.

If the Romex has a PVC jacket vs. cloth, there should certainly be a
ground conductor in it. The print on the PVC jacket should indicate
something like 12-3 with ground. If the Romex is old enough to have a
cloth jacket then perhaps it really doesn't have a ground, though I've
seen a lot of cloth jacketed Romex that has the expected bare ground
conductor.
The wire appears to be cloth covered, however the conductors appear to
be PVC sheathed.

How exactly could using a red as a ground hurt anything?
The absolute worst senerio is that someone in the future will be working on
the circuit and find the red isn't hot like he expected, and that the ground
is missing. If he isn't bright enough to put the two together (and the
green tape has fallen off the red wire) he will have to fall back on your
suggestion, but there is no way any harm can result.

The only thing I could see in the future would be if someone were to
tap into the line somewhere under the house where there would
obviously be no markings. I'm more concerned about a house inspector
dinging me on this if I ever go to sell the house.


Thanks again
-A

According to Toller :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

I'm talking from the perspective of absolutely strict code compliance
from the perspective of an anal inspector:

Legally, you can't use a black or red wire as neutral, but you
can use white for hot (with suitable marking). You can't use
any of them as ground, nor can you use a bare ground for anything
else.

How exactly could using a red as a ground hurt anything?

I can't think of any compelling "bad scenarios" with sane individuals,
but there must have been a reason for NEC not permitting the marking of
a color normally used for hot as ground (or neutral).

It could simply be that they wanted _no_ exceptions whatsoever for
color codes, except that they decided that permitting the
"recolor" of a white wire as hot was essential for certain switch
circuits, and it'd cost the industry too much otherwise, whereas
needing to allow the reverse was too rare to worry about.

The worst case in this scenario might be that someone mucking
with the panel notices the red on the ground bus, thinks that
it is the cause of the whatever it was that made them look in
the panel (mutters "idiot!" under their breath), immediately jumps
to the conclusion it's the cause of their problem, and moves it
to a breaker.

That could have rather unpleasant consequences, the least being
that they've case-energized everything on that circuit.

There's a reason why I said "absolutely strict code compliance" which
such emphasis.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

The only thing I could see in the future would be if someone were to
tap into the line somewhere under the house where there would
obviously be no markings. I'm more concerned about a house inspector
dinging me on this if I ever go to sell the house.

Geez, I wish I could have found a house inspector that good when I bought my
house!
They stick the tester in a few outlets, and if the lights look right they
are happy. At least that is my experience.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:40:02 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "Toller" wrote:

How exactly could using a red as a ground hurt anything?

At some other point in the circuit, somebody may someday decide to connect a
hot conductor to it, perhaps.

The absolute worst senerio is that someone in the future will be working on
the circuit and find the red isn't hot like he expected, and that the ground
is missing. If he isn't bright enough to put the two together (and the
green tape has fallen off the red wire) he will have to fall back on your
suggestion, but there is no way any harm can result.

I'll agree that it's unlikely, but as they say, never say never. Categorical
statements are always false. g

In any event, whether harm can result or not is moot. It's specifically
prohibited by the NEC.

How about making a bare out of the red?

How about making a bare out of the red?

You're going to pull the red wire from the sheathing, strip it, and stuff it
back in?

It looks like you've got lots of help with your question about wire color.

I presume that the 220v circuit was protected with a 30A breaker, or such? Be
sure to replace that with an appropriate-sized breaker for your new outlet.
If it's a 20A or 15A receptacle, use a proper breaker of that rating for the
re-purposed circuit.

Good luck,
Sparky

In article , Terry wrote:

How about making a bare out of the red?

Nope, that doesn't meet Code either, unless you have some way to strip *all*
of the insulation off of it, from beginning to end.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article .net, SparkyGuy wrote:
It looks like you've got lots of help with your question about wire color.

I presume that the 220v circuit was protected with a 30A breaker, or such? Be
sure to replace that with an appropriate-sized breaker for your new outlet.
If it's a 20A or 15A receptacle, use a proper breaker of that rating for the
re-purposed circuit.

Irrelevant -- if he truly does not have a bare wire, he cannot make a
Code-compliant installation with this cable. Period.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article .net,
SparkyGuy wrote:
It looks like you've got lots of help with your question about wire
color.

I presume that the 220v circuit was protected with a 30A breaker, or
such? Be
sure to replace that with an appropriate-sized breaker for your new
outlet.
If it's a 20A or 15A receptacle, use a proper breaker of that rating for
the
re-purposed circuit.

Irrelevant -- if he truly does not have a bare wire, he cannot make a
Code-compliant installation with this cable. Period.


Since this post began I have read 250.119 twice. I see no specific
limitation on taping the red wire green regardless of the size. In fact
250.119(B) specifically permits it under qualified supervision

In article , "John Grabowski" wrote:

Since this post began I have read 250.119 twice. I see no specific
limitation on taping the red wire green regardless of the size. In fact
250.119(B) specifically permits it under qualified supervision

"Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall
be permitted to be bare, covered or insulated. Individually covered or
insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a CONTINUOUS outer finish
that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as
permitted in this section." [2005 NEC, Article 250.119 (emphasis added)]

IOW -- if it's insulated at all, the insulation must be green, or green with
yellow tracer(s), from beginning to end. A wire with red insulation, either
remarked as green at the ends, or stripped bare at the ends, does not qualify
because it does not "have a continuous outer finish that is green or ...".

250.119(A) provides an exception for conductors larger than 6AWG, permitting
them to be reidentified as equipment grounding conductors at the time of
*installation*.

The exception in 250.119(B) applies, in the first place, "where the conditions
of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the
installation." These conditions do not exist in a residential setting.

In the second place, that exception, like the one in 250.119(A), applies at
the time of installation *only*. In no case does the Code permit remarking of
a conductor as an equipment grounding conductor in an *existing* system.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "John Grabowski"
wrote:

Since this post began I have read 250.119 twice. I see no specific
limitation on taping the red wire green regardless of the size. In fact
250.119(B) specifically permits it under qualified supervision

"Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors
shall
be permitted to be bare, covered or insulated. Individually covered or
insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a CONTINUOUS outer
finish
that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as
permitted in this section." [2005 NEC, Article 250.119 (emphasis added)]

IOW -- if it's insulated at all, the insulation must be green, or green
with
yellow tracer(s), from beginning to end. A wire with red insulation,
either
remarked as green at the ends, or stripped bare at the ends, does not
qualify
because it does not "have a continuous outer finish that is green or ...".

250.119(A) provides an exception for conductors larger than 6AWG,
permitting
them to be reidentified as equipment grounding conductors at the time of
*installation*.

The exception in 250.119(B) applies, in the first place, "where the
conditions
of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service
the
installation." These conditions do not exist in a residential setting.

In the second place, that exception, like the one in 250.119(A), applies
at
the time of installation *only*. In no case does the Code permit remarking
of
a conductor as an equipment grounding conductor in an *existing* system.


I'd do it anyway because I think the inspectors would find it acceptable. I
remember back in the eighties many companies were specifying isolated ground
receptacles. The contractors were installing 3 wire BX and Romex with the r
ed wire re-identified with green tape and they passed inspection. At that
time the wire marking code references were less liberal than they are now.
Now of course hospital BX and MC cable are readily available with insulated
grounding conductors.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com, Guy Noir wrote:
Question: I have installed central air and I no longer need to 220v
window AC outlets.

They are wired with romax and the colors of the conductor insulation
are Black, Red, and White.

No bare wire??

With the current cost of copper, I hate to replace these runs.

Standard color codes are of course black, white, copper/gnd. If I
rewire this for 110v what colors should I put where? I read somewhere
in the code that you can re-identify a cable with colored tape (green
for instance for the wire used for ground)

That is not correct. Grounding conductors larger than 6AWG are permitted to be
re-identified in that manner, but not 6AWG and smaller. [2005 NEC, Article
250.119]
So, should I use black-hot white-neutral and red-green taped at each
end for ground? Does this meet NEC code or at least come close??

No.

Doesn't meet letter of the code, but I'd not hesitate to do so, myself.
If certainly meets everything but the color and the electrons don't
know the difference. The marking needs to be substantial enough so as
to be relied upon for staying there.

My personal opinion on it is that it is old work, not new and there's no
inspector I've ever seen who wouldn't make reasonable allowance for that...

Others opinions/choices/etc., may differ of course...

--

In article , "John Grabowski" wrote:

I'd do it anyway because I think the inspectors would find it acceptable.

I think I'd check with the inspector before making assumptions about what he
would or would not find acceptable. g

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "John Grabowski" wrote:

I'd do it anyway because I think the inspectors would find it acceptable.

I think I'd check with the inspector before making assumptions about what he
would or would not find acceptable. g

What have you lost? 5 minutes and a couple pieces of green tape or a
dab of paint.

As noted, w/ old work and done in a workmanlike way, I've not run across
an inspector who would require pulling a new cable simply for the sake
of running new cable...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "John Grabowski"
wrote:

I'd do it anyway because I think the inspectors would find it
acceptable.

I think I'd check with the inspector before making assumptions about
what he
would or would not find acceptable. g

What have you lost? 5 minutes and a couple pieces of green tape or a
dab of paint.

As noted, w/ old work and done in a workmanlike way, I've not run across
an inspector who would require pulling a new cable simply for the sake
of running new cable...


Considering that the conductor we are talking about is non-current carrying
it seems practical.