I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car
jack, and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6"
below were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat
what I did in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if
the land is sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now
decaying.

I have the same problem except that mine isn't sinking that much. In
my case at least, the land isn't sinking nor was there buried organic
material. It's just that the damn thing is heavy and over time
it...well, sinks. Rain water working away under it doesn't help.

I don't think your proposed fix will stop it from sinking. My plan -
someday if I live enough - is to bust it up and put in a new one. The
house side of the new one will go down far enough to rest that edge on
the edge of the house footer; additionally, there will be rebar going
from it into the house foundation blocks.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.


Maybe a hydraulic spreader. I'm sure you could rent one, or find
something like this on ebay:

http://www.buffalohydraulic.com/prod..._Spreader.html

These can generate ton of force, which should help.

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:54:12 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car
jack, and put rocks underneath.

What kind of car jack? If you use a floor jack this time, you might
be able to do this even though there are some bushes in the way. It
will go right under most of most bushes.

It has been sinking and now is 6"
below were it was.

My stoop has sunk too. It may have stopped now, but it sank for 20 or
more of the 28 years the house has been here. It had sunk some when I
bought the house at 4 years old. And so have all or most of the other
15 townhouses that are in line with mine. And so have most or all of
the 16 houses in line with ours in the next n'hood a quarter mile
away. My stoop is P-shaped and 10 x 8 feet, so lifting it up is
pretty much impossible. Some have cracked when they sank but not
mine.

Houses across the street or up the hill haven't had this problem, I
think, so maybe it has to do with being at the bottom of a hill, or
maybe near the stream.

IMO there's no chance these were all built on refuse. It just wasn't
packed down well.

Each neighbor has done something different.

I put 4 pavers, 2 stacks of two 12 or 16" square, and they come to the
right height for the amount it sank.

Another n'bor paid someone to pour a step on top. The joker borrowed
wire reinforcent from me, didn't bother to bring his own. I gave him
the wire "sticks" used for the advertising signs I take down.

Another guy built a step or two with bricks in a pretty arrangement,
which he surrounded by a rectangle of 2x4s. Looks nice except I
wonder if it should be painted or if the paint will chip.

Others did other things, but all these stoops are bigger than yours.

I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat
what I did in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if
the land is sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now
decaying.

I have the same problem except that mine isn't sinking that much. In
my case at least, the land isn't sinking nor was there buried organic
material. It's just that the damn thing is heavy and over time
it...well, sinks. Rain water working away under it doesn't help.

I don't think your proposed fix will stop it from sinking. My plan -
someday if I live enough - is to bust it up and put in a new one. The
house side of the new one will go down far enough to rest that edge on
the edge of the house footer;

I can't do that, it's 6 or 7 feet down.

additionally, there will be rebar going
from it into the house foundation blocks.

A good idea. I hope it doesn't come to that for me.

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch
of concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under
the porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed
one of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill
the space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks.
This was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I
believe is getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place.
Once they do, they will serve as a footing.

"Ken" wrote in message
...
Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch of
concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under the
porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed one
of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill the
space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks. This
was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I believe is
getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place. Once they do,
they will serve as a footing.

Or add some solid (no cores) 4 inch x 8 x 16 inch concrete blocks on their
sides along the edges to spread the weight.

"Ken" wrote in message
...
Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch of
concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under the
porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed one
of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill the
space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks. This
was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I believe is
getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place. Once they do,
they will serve as a footing.

Just my humble opinion here, but I do NOT think this is a procedure that
should be tried by the casual DIY. Getting Big Heavy Things up in the air is
listed in the chapter entitled Stuff That Can Kill You If You Don't Know
What You Are Doing. Even if you have the theoretical knowledge from a book,
experience and trustworthy equipment (ie, no cheap chinese bottle jacks,
please) plays a big part. One slipped piece of cribbing or one failed jack,
at just the wrong moment, and any part of your body that is under the Big
Heavy Thing is liable to have a very bad day. This is like working under a
car on wobbly jack stands, only more so.

Faced with a similar situation, I be inclined to go with a mud jacking
company, or at least a bobcat or small loader with fork attachments. Only
way I'd think about doing it the hard way with small tools, is that if I had
free or cheap access to all the tools and cribbing, and several willing and
strong buddies to help out.

aem sends...

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

Brace it from the other side. With a GPS system you can pinpoint the exact
location of the step, then it is merely a matter of finding the exact
location of the back of the step in China. Have them drive some solid rod
into the ground to force it back up. It may help for both of you to have a
cell phone handy for the last couple of inches to assure they don't go too
far.

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:07:07 GMT, Ken wrote:

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch
of concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under
the porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed
one of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill
the space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks.
This was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I
believe is getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place.
Once they do, they will serve as a footing.

How long did the sinking part take, after you started the repair?
Did rainstorms make a difference?

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:53:23 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Phisherman" wrote in message
.. .
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.

Brace it from the other side. With a GPS system you can pinpoint the exact
location of the step, then it is merely a matter of finding the exact
location of the back of the step in China. Have them drive some solid rod
into the ground to force it back up. It may help for both of you to have a
cell phone handy for the last couple of inches to assure they don't go too
far.

Be sure to use high-temp alloy rods. You don't want it to melt in the
middle.

Meat Plow wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:48:39 +0000, Phisherman wrote:

I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door.
Since 1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a
car jack, and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now
is 6" below were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to
repeat what I did in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be
sure if the land is sinking or the builder buried refuge that is
now decaying.

Probably not an easier way but the cheapest for sure.. The land
underneath obviously is sinking or you wouldn't be having a
problem.

Not necessarily...more likely it is being displaced laterally. For a
similar example, suppose you fill a bucket with small shot and then
push on the surface with the end of a 2x4...it goes down, shot comes
up/sideways.

--�

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

mm wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:07:07 GMT, Ken wrote:

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.
For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch
of concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under
the porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed
one of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill
the space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks.
This was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I
believe is getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place.
Once they do, they will serve as a footing.

How long did the sinking part take, after you started the repair?
Did rainstorms make a difference?

I am not sure if your question is for me or the original poster? In my
case the sinking of the original porch took several years, getting a
little worse each year until it needed to be addressed. The jacking and
blocking effort only took a few hours with a few neighbors helping with
the job. We laid a long flat board across the porch so that we could
see we were not stressing one side more than the other and cause it to
fracture. It really turned out better than we had expected.

As for aemeijers comment about using the proper tools, that is always
the best approach. In our case it was a "What have we got to lose?"
approach. It most likely would have been a case of replacement rather
than hiring a service to jack up the porch. Also, the way the porch was
laid over the brick sides meant there was little chance of someone
having it fall down on their limbs. We were well aware of safety and
not about to volunteer to a project where we wish we had not, even if
there was free beer.

Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:16:15 +0000, dadiOH wrote:

Meat Plow wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:48:39 +0000, Phisherman wrote:

I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door.
Since 1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used
a car jack, and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and
now is 6" below were it was. I'd have to remove some
landscaping to repeat what I did in 1997. Is there an easier
way? I can't be sure if the land is sinking or the builder
buried refuge that is now decaying.

Probably not an easier way but the cheapest for sure.. The land
underneath obviously is sinking or you wouldn't be having a
problem.

Not necessarily...more likely it is being displaced laterally.
For a similar example, suppose you fill a bucket with small shot
and then push on the surface with the end of a 2x4...it goes down,
shot comes up/sideways.

Ok I'll run right out and buy some shot and give that a try

Sand will work too

--�

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:23:38 GMT, Ken wrote:

mm wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:07:07 GMT, Ken wrote:

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.
For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch
of concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under
the porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed
one of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill
the space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks.
This was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I
believe is getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place.
Once they do, they will serve as a footing.

How long did the sinking part take, after you started the repair?
Did rainstorms make a difference?

I am not sure if your question is for me or the original poster? In my

Thank you. I was asking you. I thought maybe the jacks continued to
sink as the weight on them increased as they were pumped up, or even
longer than that. But I guess not, which is good to know.

case the sinking of the original porch took several years, getting a
little worse each year until it needed to be addressed. The jacking and
blocking effort only took a few hours with a few neighbors helping with
the job. We laid a long flat board across the porch so that we could
see we were not stressing one side more than the other and cause it to
fracture.

Would that really work? Would it show bending before it broke? (if
that's what you mean.

It really turned out better than we had expected.

As for aemeijers comment about using the proper tools, that is always
the best approach. In our case it was a "What have we got to lose?"
approach. It most likely would have been a case of replacement rather
than hiring a service to jack up the porch. Also, the way the porch was
laid over the brick sides meant there was little chance of someone
having it fall down on their limbs. We were well aware of safety and
not about to volunteer to a project where we wish we had not, even if
there was free beer.

What if the beer was put under the cement slab?

I haven't lifted a stoop, but I lifted a cement square from a sidewalk
several times. I had 2x4's lifting up the corners and enough empty
space dug out that getting fingers caught was unlikely.

I had a neighbor help me with the first square, and he came over with
rubber dishwashing gloves! I provided him leather work gloves

He doesn't look weak. He's bigger than I am, but never came back when
I kept saying it was a good time to put the square back. So I asked a
skinny friend who's 60 years old. He had no problem and helped me
put back one and later lift up the other next to it, and maybe put
that one back too. But I hadn't cut out the tree roots enough and was
embarrassed to ask him to come back, so I ended up doing it myself,
with 3 4x4's to set it on and 6 2x4's, to lift it up and "row" it out,
and then "row" it back, using a 2x4 as an oar, lifting the square and
moving in one direction, then letting down the oar and bringing it
back, and it was easier than making an appointment with my friend.

But even though the 2x4 was nowhere near breaking, I somehow don't
think this technique would work if the stoop were much heavier than a
sidewalk square, which it probably is. And not in this case if it has
the bushes in the way.

I had all the wood already from privacy fences that neighbors had torn
down and offered me the scrap.

mm wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 13:23:38 GMT, Ken wrote:

mm wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:07:07 GMT, Ken wrote:

Phisherman wrote:
I have a 3x4' concrete stoop just under the side garage door. Since
1992 it has been sinking. About 1997 I dug under it, used a car jack,
and put rocks underneath. It has been sinking and now is 6" below
were it was. I'd have to remove some landscaping to repeat what I did
in 1997. Is there an easier way? I can't be sure if the land is
sinking or the builder buried refuge that is now decaying.
For what it is worth, I helped a neighbor who had a front 20 foot porch
of concrete start sinking. We place several hydraulic car jacks under
the porch with concrete bricks under the jacks. When the bricks stopped
sinking and the porch reached the point when it was level, we removed
one of the jacks and wedged more concrete bricks under the porch to fill
the space. Of course we repeated this procedure with the other jacks.
This was twenty years ago, and the porch is still level. The key I
believe is getting the bricks to sink until the reach a stable place.
Once they do, they will serve as a footing.
How long did the sinking part take, after you started the repair?
Did rainstorms make a difference?
I am not sure if your question is for me or the original poster? In my

Thank you. I was asking you. I thought maybe the jacks continued to
sink as the weight on them increased as they were pumped up, or even
longer than that. But I guess not, which is good to know.

Perhaps I did make my self clear. Once the jacks were placed under the
porch, they DID sink and continued to sink until they reached a firm
footing. The process we used was to continue the jacking process and to
insert another concrete brick each time the one under the jack sunk
enough for one to be inserted. When the blocks under the jacks finally
reach a firm footing, the porch slab started to rise. Since several
jacks were being used, when the porch was finally level, we removed a
jack and inserted concrete bricks to take up the space occupied by the jack.

Once the slab was where we wanted it and one support in the form of
concrete bricks was holding it up, the replacement of the other jacks
with concrete blocks could also be done. What you ended up with was
columns of concrete blocks serving as supports for the slab. Each of
these supports had reached a point where they were on firm ground since
the jacks used to sink them were now raising the slab when jacked up.

The purpose of the piece of wood on top of the porch while the jacking
operation was taking place, was to indicate when one side was being
raised more than the other. In other words, it was allowing us to keep
the slab level and not raising one side so much that stress would
fracture the concrete slab. You may not need to do this with your
project, but I just mentioned it in case someone would have such a
problem. We did not want to crack the slab since it was still in one
piece and if it could be raised and supported, a lot of work could be saved.

The key thing in our operation was the forcing of concrete bricks (or
blocks if more appropriate) into the ground until they hit a firm
footing. While doing this we took pains to make sure we lifted the
entire slab equally so that it did not crack, by using a piece of wood
(straight edge) to show us when one side was going up more than the
other. Once the slab had reached the level, each of the columns
supporting it was concrete blocks that had been forced into the ground
until they were past the soft ground. The rest was cosmetic in that the
bricks on the front were patch so that they too supported the front of
the slab. Not really rocket science, but a little planning saved a lot
of money and came out well.

P.S. The beer tasted might good after it was done!!

case the sinking of the original porch took several years, getting a
little worse each year until it needed to be addressed. The jacking and
blocking effort only took a few hours with a few neighbors helping with
the job. We laid a long flat board across the porch so that we could
see we were not stressing one side more than the other and cause it to
fracture.

Would that really work? Would it show bending before it broke? (if
that's what you mean.

Yes, the concrete slab will bend before it breaks, and you can see it
happening.



It really turned out better than we had expected.

As for aemeijers comment about using the proper tools, that is always
the best approach. In our case it was a "What have we got to lose?"
approach. It most likely would have been a case of replacement rather
than hiring a service to jack up the porch. Also, the way the porch was
laid over the brick sides meant there was little chance of someone
having it fall down on their limbs. We were well aware of safety and
not about to volunteer to a project where we wish we had not, even if
there was free beer.

What if the beer was put under the cement slab?

I haven't lifted a stoop, but I lifted a cement square from a sidewalk
several times. I had 2x4's lifting up the corners and enough empty
space dug out that getting fingers caught was unlikely.

I had a neighbor help me with the first square, and he came over with
rubber dishwashing gloves! I provided him leather work gloves

He doesn't look weak. He's bigger than I am, but never came back when
I kept saying it was a good time to put the square back. So I asked a
skinny friend who's 60 years old. He had no problem and helped me
put back one and later lift up the other next to it, and maybe put
that one back too. But I hadn't cut out the tree roots enough and was
embarrassed to ask him to come back, so I ended up doing it myself,
with 3 4x4's to set it on and 6 2x4's, to lift it up and "row" it out,
and then "row" it back, using a 2x4 as an oar, lifting the square and
moving in one direction, then letting down the oar and bringing it
back, and it was easier than making an appointment with my friend.

But even though the 2x4 was nowhere near breaking, I somehow don't
think this technique would work if the stoop were much heavier than a
sidewalk square, which it probably is. And not in this case if it has
the bushes in the way.

I had all the wood already from privacy fences that neighbors had torn
down and offered me the scrap.

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:07:20 -0400, mm
wrote:

snip

I had all the wood already from privacy fences that neighbors had torn
down and offered me the scrap.


I thought a long 2x4 or 4x4 might be the best way to lift the concrete
square, then fill underneath with gravel, sand, or dirt. Probably
safer than using a hoist/chain. There's no erosion in the area but
there are plenty underground water veins.