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#1
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vampires and power usage
Hey folks,
I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...act-181497.php Dave |
#2
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vampires and power usage
Zephyr wrote:
Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...act-181497.php Buy a "Kill-A-Watt" (see eBay) and test it for yourself. |
#3
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 13, 11:51 am, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...mpire-slayer-a... Dave If you add up everything you might save 15$ if you have an old tv, dvd, microwave etc, Get kill a watt meter and do your own audit |
#4
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vampires and power usage
Heres a link to "kill-a-watt". It was very useful to slay my vampires
http://www.meritline.com/kilwateldet.html "HeyBub" wrote in message ... Zephyr wrote: Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...act-181497.php Buy a "Kill-A-Watt" (see eBay) and test it for yourself. |
#5
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 13, 2:51 pm, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...mpire-slayer-a... Dave It gets hot when it is hooked up to the laptop because the laptop puts a load on the charger. No load...there is not a lot of heat. Any device with a transformer directly connected to the mains will draw a very minute amount of power...it is called the magnetizing load of the transformer.....if there is a rectifier and regulator after the xfrmr...which there most likely is ...I dont see it drawing any power unless there is a load passing thru it. of course your indicator light will draw a small amount of power..... |
#6
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vampires and power usage
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:51:20 -0400, "Zephyr" an address @ some place
..com wrote: Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? Good question. Not only the ones with wall warts, those black "adaptor" boxes that plug into the wall with a cord coming out of them, but many radios etc. with the transformers inside, have no switch in the primary of the power transformer, and they are ON all the time. For electronic reasons I don't well understand, when there is no current in the secondary of a transformer, there is higher impedance in the primary of the transformer, so less current flows even through the primary. The heat one can feel, that you feel, the waste heat would be iiac the same percentage of energy used, as when the device is running and there is current through the secondary. From your touch, it sounds like the current is a lot lower, but otoh, it's on all the time if the thing is plugged in, even for things that are only used an hour a year. Does anyone know what the percentage is, or how much these things use when off? xposted to sci.electronics.repair I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...act-181497.php Dave |
#7
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 13, 10:53 pm, mm wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:51:20 -0400, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote: Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? Good question. Not only the ones with wall warts, those black "adaptor" boxes that plug into the wall with a cord coming out of them, but many radios etc. with the transformers inside, have no switch in the primary of the power transformer, and they are ON all the time. For electronic reasons I don't well understand, when there is no current in the secondary of a transformer, there is higher impedance in the primary of the transformer, so less current flows even through the primary. The heat one can feel, that you feel, the waste heat would be iiac the same percentage of energy used, as when the device is running and there is current through the secondary. From your touch, it sounds like the current is a lot lower, but otoh, it's on all the time if the thing is plugged in, even for things that are only used an hour a year. Does anyone know what the percentage is, or how much these things use when off? xposted to sci.electronics.repair I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...mpire-slayer-a... Dave- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, there's been a lot of discussion on this. Essentially, when there's no load on the phone charger or other appliance, it's like having an inductance across the power line of your house. There will be some very small current flow, but only because it's not a perfect inductance. All of the energy used in these wall transformers when they're just idling is dissipated in the form of heat in their black plastic case, so you can get an idea of how much power they're using by just feeling them. It's not really very much. Note that you'll have a tough time measuring the power drain with a multimeter, because both current and voltage will show rather high readings. But since they're almost 1/4 cycle out of phase, there's almost no power being dissipated, and only a good power meter will take this into account. (This problem is the basis for a lot of free energy claims, you'll be happy to note.) In general, wall transformers aren't a big deal. M Kinsler |
#8
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vampires and power usage
"mm" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:51:20 -0400, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote: Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? Good question. Not only the ones with wall warts, those black "adaptor" boxes that plug into the wall with a cord coming out of them, but many radios etc. with the transformers inside, have no switch in the primary of the power transformer, and they are ON all the time. For electronic reasons I don't well understand, when there is no current in the secondary of a transformer, there is higher impedance in the primary of the transformer, so less current flows even through the primary. The heat one can feel, that you feel, the waste heat would be iiac the same percentage of energy used, as when the device is running and there is current through the secondary. From your touch, it sounds like the current is a lot lower, but otoh, it's on all the time if the thing is plugged in, even for things that are only used an hour a year. Does anyone know what the percentage is, or how much these things use when off? You can pick up a gadget called a Kill A Watt and other similar devices for under 30 bucks. It's a pretty impressive power analyzer, the wonders of modern technology. Pick up one of those and you can find out how much power anything in the house draws, as well as the power factor, cumulative consumption, etc. I have one and love it. |
#9
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vampires and power usage
Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the
inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ |
#10
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vampires and power usage
jmagerl wrote:
Heres a link to "kill-a-watt". It was very useful to slay my vampires http://www.meritline.com/kilwateldet.html Not really. I'm gonna share a tip that may save your life! This business about about a wooden stake through the heart of a vampire is pure Hollywood bull****! If you read Bram Stoker's book, you'll find that the tool to use is a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg! I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie knives here and almost no vampire problem. |
#11
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote:
Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ I believe that it has to do with the idea that a vampire is something of a parasite, living as he or she does on the blood or electric current of the host. It's one of those imprecise terms up with which we all must put. M Kinsler okay, _you_ try to match wits with Winston Spencer C. |
#12
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vampires and power usage
m kinsler wrote in message
ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ I believe that it has to do with the idea that a vampire is something of a parasite, living as he or she does on the blood or electric current of the host. It's one of those imprecise terms up with which we all must put. M Kinsler okay, _you_ try to match wits with Winston Spencer C. So is Vampire = Wall Wart another term to add to my USA/UK (2 nations divided by a common language) file ? http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/tool_terms.htm If anyone, reading this, is aware of any other tool/technical terms in US or UK, my real email address is spelt out on the URL below -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ |
#13
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vampires and power usage
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:27:12 +0100, "N Cook"
wrote: So is Vampire = Wall Wart another term to add to my USA/UK (2 nations divided by a common language) file ? http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/tool_terms.htm If anyone, reading this, is aware of any other tool/technical terms in US or UK, my real email address is spelt out on the URL below From my understanding of the term, a vampire device is any one that continues to draw power even when in the 'off' state. This would include devices powered by a 'wall-wart', devices with a built-in clock, devices that are powered on/off by a remote control (the circuit that receives from the remote needs power all the time), etc. So they would include most microwave ovens (the clock), TVs, VCRs, DVD players/recorders, DVRs, personal computers, etc. |
#14
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vampires and power usage
Power Vampires are a significant problem. While each one
is (usually) not significant, altogether they can add up to quite a bit. I have found that they can add up to several hundred watts. "Kill-a-watt" can be quite useful if you can guess where they all are and they are plug-in devices. As you can see, not all plug in the wall. Here are some idle power consumptions that I have measured: Doorbell transformer 8 watts cordless phones 4-9 watts DirecTV receiver (off) 34 watts TV (off) 17 Garage door opener 2.5 Fax machine 10 Gas furnace 20 Newer gas furnace 27 Central AC outdoor unit 20-40 watts (two different units) Other devices to consider: Any device with a remote control (stereo, DVD player, X-10, etc.) Any portable device with a rechargeable battery: (cordless phones, toothbrush, vacuum, drill, etc.; cell phones) Timers of any sort (irrigation, lights, etc.) UPS for your computer. DSL modem motion activated lights 200 watts continuous is 144 KwH per month. That's hundreds $ per year! Zephyr wrote: Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...act-181497.php Dave |
#15
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 14, 8:30 am, "HeyBub" wrote:
jmagerl wrote: Heres a link to "kill-a-watt". It was very useful to slay my vampires http://www.meritline.com/kilwateldet.html Not really. I'm gonna share a tip that may save your life! This business about about a wooden stake through the heart of a vampire is pure Hollywood bull****! If you read Bram Stoker's book, you'll find that the tool to use is a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg! I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie knives here and almost no vampire problem. And as you know, it was someone from Texas who killed Dracula. I suppose that Texas did the world a service killing Dracula, but you guys also gave us TWO Bushes. Given my choice, I'd rather have Dracula. The only thing he sucked try was blood. Of course, I can't talk. I'm from NY. We have Hillary Clinton, Rudy Guianni, AND Mike Bloomburg running for President ... and you thought people hated New York BEFORE this .... |
#16
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vampires and power usage
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:05:06 GMT, M Q
wrote: These are the sort of things that bother me. Doorbell transformer 8 watts cordless phones 4-9 watts DirecTV receiver (off) 34 watts TV (off) 17 Garage door opener 2.5 Fax machine 10 Gas furnace 20 Newer gas furnace 27 Central AC outdoor unit 20-40 watts (two different units) I don't understand this one. Have AC's changed, or do all brands have this, and what is outside that is using current when the AC isn't running? Are we talking about 12 months a year? Other devices to consider: Any device with a remote control (stereo, DVD player, X-10, etc.) Any portable device with a rechargeable battery: (cordless phones, toothbrush, vacuum, drill, etc.; cell phones) Timers of any sort (irrigation, lights, etc.) UPS for your computer. DSL modem motion activated lights 200 watts continuous is 144 KwH per month. That's hundreds $ per year! |
#17
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vampires and power usage
Pat wrote:
On Jun 14, 8:30 am, "HeyBub" wrote: jmagerl wrote: Heres a link to "kill-a-watt". It was very useful to slay my vampires http://www.meritline.com/kilwateldet.html Not really. I'm gonna share a tip that may save your life! This business about about a wooden stake through the heart of a vampire is pure Hollywood bull****! If you read Bram Stoker's book, you'll find that the tool to use is a BOWIE KNIFE, not some ****ant tent-peg! I'm in Texas. We have a LOT of Bowie knives here and almost no vampire problem. And as you know, it was someone from Texas who killed Dracula. I suppose that Texas did the world a service killing Dracula, but you guys also gave us TWO Bushes. Given my choice, I'd rather have Dracula. The only thing he sucked try was blood. We also gave the country Eisenhower and Lyndon Johnson. I admit, it's a mixed bag. Fortunately, there's JEB Bush for eight years then that good-looking Hispanic nephew. By then, the dynasty will be firmly established. It's then but a small step to a monarchy. Of course, I can't talk. I'm from NY. We have Hillary Clinton, Rudy Guianni, AND Mike Bloomburg running for President ... and you thought people hated New York BEFORE this .... Nah, Clinton is everyman's ex-wife. She's a goner. Bloomburg is the quintessential nanny-state leader. Guilianni isn't so bad. "A conservative is a liberal New Yorker who realizes he hasn't been mugged in several weeks now and attributes it to Guilianni." I remember talking to one of my customers in Manhattan on 9/12. I told him: "We're ALL New Yorkers today!" He was touched. |
#18
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vampires and power usage
"N Cook" wrote in message ... m kinsler wrote in message ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ I believe that it has to do with the idea that a vampire is something of a parasite, living as he or she does on the blood or electric current of the host. It's one of those imprecise terms up with which we all must put. M Kinsler okay, _you_ try to match wits with Winston Spencer C. So is Vampire = Wall Wart another term to add to my USA/UK (2 nations divided by a common language) file ? http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/tool_terms.htm If anyone, reading this, is aware of any other tool/technical terms in US or UK, my real email address is spelt out on the URL below It's a term used mostly by the solar/wind guys running houses off-grid. It refers to any device which draws power even in the off state, regardless of the sort of power supply. |
#19
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vampires and power usage
mm wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:05:06 GMT, M Q wrote: .... Central AC outdoor unit 20-40 watts (two different units) I don't understand this one. Have AC's changed, or do all brands have this, and what is outside that is using current when the AC isn't running? Are we talking about 12 months a year? .... Yes, we are talking 12 months a year unless you turn off the breakers. One of the ACs was a 4 Ton Carrier unit. The power was consumed by a 40 watt "crankcase heater". These are more common in larger (4, 5, or more ton) AC condensers (outdoor units), those that are a longer distance from the indoor unit, those that use R-410a, and in heat pumps. Sometimes they are thermostatically controlled. This one was not. The other is a 3 Ton Trane 2-stage condenser. The 20 watts appeared to be consumed by a variable speed fan controller. This one is totally inexcusable, as an added relay would pay for itself in less than 1/2 a year. These are the sort of things that California's Vampire Slayer bill (which appears to have not become law) that the OP referred to might embarrass manufacturers into cleaning up. Note: some of the power consumption figures that I mentioned were apparent power (measured in "Volt-Amps" -- the vector sum of real power and reactive power) because it was easier to measure, and some were in real power (measured in Watts). Kill-A-Watt measures both. Residential power meters generally measure real power. The cost to the utility is somewhere in between. |
#20
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vampires and power usage
M Q writes:
Note: some of the power consumption figures that I mentioned were apparent power (measured in "Volt-Amps" -- the vector sum of real power and reactive power) because it was easier to measure, and some were in real power (measured in Watts). Kill-A-Watt measures both. Residential power meters generally measure real power. The cost to the utility is somewhere in between. It's pretty bogus to add up VA power numbers as if they were watts, then calculate how much you would pay per year. If your meter measures real power (and as you say, it probably does), then the cost depends on the real power consumed. For things with resistive heaters, real and apparent power are about the same and it doesn't matter. But for something like half of the loads you listed, the power is probably almost all magnetising current in a transformer, with a very low power factor. For these loads, the real power is a fraction of the apparent power, and using apparent power will produce a large error. Dave |
#21
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vampires and power usage
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:07:59 GMT, M Q
wrote: mm wrote: On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:05:06 GMT, M Q wrote: ... Central AC outdoor unit 20-40 watts (two different units) I don't understand this one. Have AC's changed, or do all brands have this, and what is outside that is using current when the AC isn't running? Are we talking about 12 months a year? ... Yes, we are talking 12 months a year unless you turn off the breakers. One of the ACs was a 4 Ton Carrier unit. The power was consumed by a 40 watt "crankcase heater". These are more common in larger (4, 5, or more ton) AC condensers (outdoor units), those that are a longer distance from the indoor unit, those that use R-410a, and in heat pumps. OK. It's not that my system is all that matters, but it's all that I control, I would be upset if it were in my control to stop wasting electricity and I didn't. None of these factors apply to me, except maybe R-410a if that is the old stuff, and I'm pretty certain I don't have a crankcase heater. Sometimes they are thermostatically controlled. This one was not. The other is a 3 Ton Trane 2-stage condenser. The 20 watts appeared to be consumed by a variable speed fan controller. This one is I don't have a variable speed fan controller either. My outdoor fan has one speed, and my indoor fan has one of three speeds, set by connecting wires. But I'll have to upgrade someday and now I'll know to turn my AC off at the breakers after that, for the 11 or 10 months a year I don't use it. totally inexcusable, as an added relay would pay for itself in less than 1/2 a year. Sounds inexcusable These are the sort of things that California's Vampire Slayer bill (which appears to have not become law) that the OP referred to might embarrass manufacturers into cleaning up. Note: some of the power consumption figures that I mentioned were apparent power (measured in "Volt-Amps" -- the vector sum of real power and reactive power) because it was easier to measure, and some were in real power (measured in Watts). Kill-A-Watt measures both. Residential power meters generally measure real power. The cost to the utility is somewhere in between. I'd like to better understand that and what Dave said. I once asked about the difference between volt-amps and watts and didn't get a real answer iirc. I haven't googled. |
#22
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vampires and power usage
James Sweet wrote in message
news:Gbjci.13139$%H5.1612@trndny03... "N Cook" wrote in message ... m kinsler wrote in message ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) It's a term used mostly by the solar/wind guys running houses off-grid. It refers to any device which draws power even in the off state, regardless of the sort of power supply. There does not seem to be an equivalent recognised UK term for this, any limies/pomms know any different ? -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ |
#23
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vampires and power usage
In message , N Cook
writes James Sweet wrote in message news:Gbjci.13139$%H5.1612@trndny03... "N Cook" wrote in message ... m kinsler wrote in message ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) It's a term used mostly by the solar/wind guys running houses off-grid. It refers to any device which draws power even in the off state, regardless of the sort of power supply. There does not seem to be an equivalent recognised UK term for this, any limies/pomms know any different ? -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ I'd never heard it until it appeared here (about a week ago?). If you have to have a term to describe such power supplies, it's quite a good one. However, it's just one more step down the road where words don't actually mean what they say (most of which seem to originate in the USA). Ian. -- |
#24
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vampires and power usage
Hi,
On some of these smaller power supplies there is no transformer at all! I.E. no primary and secondary. They do have an inductor that is used to step down the power and rely on a Thysistor (aka. electronic switch) to turn on an off very fast. Usually 60 times a second (ac mains frequency). The voltage regulation is dependent on the amount of time the switch is on during the power cycle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_mode_power_supply One nice thing about this is that they can adapt to many mains voltages and mains frequency. Hence for laptop computers you only need one "International" power brik like supply. Warmest regards, Mike. |
#25
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vampires and power usage
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , N Cook writes James Sweet wrote in message news:Gbjci.13139$%H5.1612@trndny03... "N Cook" wrote in message ... m kinsler wrote in message ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) snip I had not heard of this usage regarding power consumption until this thread, however 'vampire tap' in electronic parlance refers to a piercing type of cable connector, most often a coaxial connector used in Ethernet 10base5 wiring. I'd never heard it until it appeared here (about a week ago?). If you have to have a term to describe such power supplies, it's quite a good one. However, it's just one more step down the road where words don't actually mean what they say (most of which seem to originate in the USA). Ian. ....hmmm, I never cease to be amazed by the Brits' continual misuse of case in referring to companies (in usenet postings) in the plural instead of the singular, e.g. "Hewlett Packard have a new line of servers" instead of "Hewlett Packard has a new line of servers". Regards, Michael |
#26
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vampires and power usage
In message , msg
writes Ian Jackson wrote: snip I'd never heard it until it appeared here (about a week ago?). If you have to have a term to describe such power supplies, it's quite a good one. However, it's just one more step down the road where words don't actually mean what they say (most of which seem to originate in the USA). Ian. I had not heard of this usage regarding power consumption until this thread, however 'vampire tap' in electronic parlance refers to a piercing type of cable connector, most often a coaxial connector used in Ethernet 10base5 wiring. ...hmmm, I never cease to be amazed by the Brits' continual misuse of case in referring to companies (in usenet postings) in the plural instead of the singular, e.g. "Hewlett Packard have a new line of servers" instead of "Hewlett Packard has a new line of servers". Regards, Michael Hey! You are right about the 'vampire tap'. I'm in the CATV industry, and I've just remembered that, many years ago, I did see reference to 'vampire taps' as being the latest and greatest for coaxial ethernet. That took me back to the early 1960s, when similar tap devices were manufactured in the UK (by Thorn, I think). I may still have one somewhere. Nasty things! Re the British incorrect use of plurals when referring to companies (or, indeed, any group), yes, this is very common, eg the 'government are', 'the team are' etc. However, being grammatically correct does sometimes grate a little. Maybe the Americans are not totally to blame for this sad world we live in. But, of course, we always (correctly) say 'maths' (for mathematics). Ian. -- |
#27
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vampires and power usage
Ian Jackson wrote in message ... In message , msg writes Ian Jackson wrote: snip I'd never heard it until it appeared here (about a week ago?). If you have to have a term to describe such power supplies, it's quite a good one. However, it's just one more step down the road where words don't actually mean what they say (most of which seem to originate in the USA). Ian. I had not heard of this usage regarding power consumption until this thread, however 'vampire tap' in electronic parlance refers to a piercing type of cable connector, most often a coaxial connector used in Ethernet 10base5 wiring. ...hmmm, I never cease to be amazed by the Brits' continual misuse of case in referring to companies (in usenet postings) in the plural instead of the singular, e.g. "Hewlett Packard have a new line of servers" instead of "Hewlett Packard has a new line of servers". Regards, Michael Hey! You are right about the 'vampire tap'. I'm in the CATV industry, and I've just remembered that, many years ago, I did see reference to 'vampire taps' as being the latest and greatest for coaxial ethernet. That took me back to the early 1960s, when similar tap devices were manufactured in the UK (by Thorn, I think). I may still have one somewhere. Nasty things! Re the British incorrect use of plurals when referring to companies (or, indeed, any group), yes, this is very common, eg the 'government are', 'the team are' etc. However, being grammatically correct does sometimes grate a little. Maybe the Americans are not totally to blame for this sad world we live in. But, of course, we always (correctly) say 'maths' (for mathematics). Ian. -- I never hear the royal "we" but I'm often forced to hear reference to the football "we" all the time. As in "we were robbed" mouthed by people who haven't kicked a ball since they were kids. -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ |
#28
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vampires and power usage
In message , N Cook
writes I never hear the royal "we" but I'm often forced to hear reference to the football "we" all the time. As in "we were robbed" mouthed by people who haven't kicked a ball since they were kids. Nah. You've got it wrong. It's usually 'We WAS robbed!' Ian. -- |
#29
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 13, 11:25 pm, m kinsler wrote:
On Jun 13, 10:53 pm, mm wrote: On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:51:20 -0400, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote: Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? Good question. Not only the ones with wall warts, those black "adaptor" boxes that plug into the wall with a cord coming out of them, but many radios etc. with the transformers inside, have no switch in the primary of the power transformer, and they are ON all the time. For electronic reasons I don't well understand, when there is no current in the secondary of a transformer, there is higher impedance in the primary of the transformer, so less current flows even through the primary. The heat one can feel, that you feel, the waste heat would be iiac the same percentage of energy used, as when the device is running and there is current through the secondary. From your touch, it sounds like the current is a lot lower, but otoh, it's on all the time if the thing is plugged in, even for things that are only used an hour a year. Does anyone know what the percentage is, or how much these things use when off? xposted to sci.electronics.repair I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...mpire-slayer-a... Dave- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, there's been a lot of discussion on this. Essentially, when there's no load on the phone charger or other appliance, it's like having an inductance across the power line of your house. There will be some very small current flow, but only because it's not a perfect inductance. All of the energy used in these wall transformers when they're just idling is dissipated in the form of heat in their black plastic case, so you can get an idea of how much power they're using by just feeling them. It's not really very much. Note that you'll have a tough time measuring the power drain with a multimeter, because both current and voltage will show rather high readings. But since they're almost 1/4 cycle out of phase, there's almost no power being dissipated, and only a good power meter will take this into account. (This problem is the basis for a lot of free energy claims, you'll be happy to note.) In general, wall transformers aren't a big deal. And don't forget, in winter you don't mind a little heat radiating, so there really is no waste, unless you have them plugged in the attic or something. |
#30
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 14, 11:27 am, "N Cook" wrote:
m kinsler wrote in message ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ I believe that it has to do with the idea that a vampire is something of a parasite, living as he or she does on the blood or electric current of the host. It's one of those imprecise terms up with which we all must put. M Kinsler okay, _you_ try to match wits with Winston Spencer C. So is Vampire = Wall Wart another term to add to my USA/UK (2 nations divided by a common language) file ?http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/tool_terms.htm If anyone, reading this, is aware of any other tool/technical terms in US or UK, my real email address is spelt out on the URL below -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ "A vampire is a-a cell deal you can plug in th' wall to charge your cell phone." -George Bush, Denver, Aug. 14, 2001 |
#31
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vampires and power usage
On Jun 13, 4:51 pm, "Zephyr" an address @ some place .com wrote:
Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. now, if I leave it plugged into the wall, but remove the laptop, it does not heat up, but. there is a little light on it that indicates it is receiving power. aside from that little light, is it using any significant amount of power? The label on the unit says the input is 1.5a same question goes for my cell phone chargers 0.2a I understand that some of these things do use power constantly, but... how much? I found this link but it doesn't get into the Nitti gritty I was looking for http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/c...mpire-slayer-a... Dave xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Dave: There is not really enough info/numbers in the original posted question to calculate; but here is an attempt. Answer: Very little. Here's an assumption. If it use 100 watts while lap-top charging it probably uses less than 10% of that while not charging. That is less than 10 watts. And 10 watts is probably a bit of an overestimation any way. Any more than that the charger alone would get slightly warm all the time! Something like the amount of heat from one of those on-all-the time night lights which IIRC are often 7.5 watts. 10 watts for one hour is one, one hundredth of a kilowatt hour. Using my cost of electricity (yours may be more or less) of about 9 cents (all charges included) per kilowatt hour, it will cost about 0.09 cents for every hour that it is plugged in but not charging anything. Make that say one tenth of a cent; in other words it will cost around 2 to 2.5 cents per 24 hour day that it is plugged in and not charging. Hardly worth bothering about? A 100 watt light bulb left on for the same 24 hours would cost about 20 to 25 cents. Again depending on you electricity cost. In regard to the cell phone charger. You do not specify if the 0.2 amps is the input or the output. Assuming it is the input: Approx 120 x 0.2 = 24 watts. But again that would while charging. That's probably less than one quarter of what the laptop charger needs, cell phone is much smaller isn't it? While not charging; again it probably uses less than one cent per 24 hour day. This sort of question by those who are ignorant of electricity, although the info. is usually on the label somewhere, and most of us 'did it in science class in school?"; reminds one of the little old lady who used to go round plugging up her electric outlets "To stop the electricity from leaking out"! One item that doesn't seem to be realized with all this saving energy/ conservation business is that any lost heat from using less efficient devices helps heat the house. We live in a cool area of North America where every month of the year requires some heating, in our case electric heating. We don't need or use air conditioning at all. So the lost heat from much cheaper (about 25 cents each) non CFL light bulbs etc. merely reduces electric heating! Our bathroom, for example, is heated almost entirely by the six 40 watt bulbs above the vanity. Only in coldest winter does the 500 watt baseboard electric heater operate! |
#32
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vampires and power usage
z wrote:
On Jun 14, 11:27 am, "N Cook" wrote: m kinsler wrote in message ups.com... On Jun 14, 5:47 am, "N Cook" wrote: Is vampire some in-joke conflation of V(olt) + amp that I'm out of the inductive loop with (sorry Mr Churchill) -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ I believe that it has to do with the idea that a vampire is something of a parasite, living as he or she does on the blood or electric current of the host. It's one of those imprecise terms up with which we all must put. M Kinsler okay, _you_ try to match wits with Winston Spencer C. So is Vampire = Wall Wart another term to add to my USA/UK (2 nations divided by a common language) file ?http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/tool_terms.htm If anyone, reading this, is aware of any other tool/technical terms in US or UK, my real email address is spelt out on the URL below -- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/ "A vampire is a-a cell deal you can plug in th' wall to charge your cell phone." -George Bush, Denver, Aug. 14, 2001 Could the vampire thing relating to cable piercing connectors originally have come from festoon lighting lamp holders as used on fairgrounds etc. where two sharp spikes (fangs) pierce the insulation of flat twin cable to provide power to the lamp holder? RonUK |
#33
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vampires and power usage
Ian Jackson wrote:
I'm in the CATV industry, and I've just remembered that, many years ago, I did see reference to 'vampire taps' as being the latest and greatest for coaxial ethernet. That took me back to the early 1960s, when similar tap devices were manufactured in the UK (by Thorn, I think). I may still have one somewhere. Nasty things! They were real low grade ****. They were replaced by backmatched taps when systems were extended past the original 12 channel systems in the US. They caused mismatch problems, and wasted a lot of the signal on the trunklines or feeders. They worked, more or less on systems with just a few channels, and very few customers, but them, those people were already used to ghosting and snow. They had all been pulled from the 17 systems around Ft Rucker by 1972, including a couple short haul feeds that only had a couple channels. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#34
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vampires and power usage
In message , Michael A. Terrell
writes Ian Jackson wrote: I'm in the CATV industry, and I've just remembered that, many years ago, I did see reference to 'vampire taps' as being the latest and greatest for coaxial ethernet. That took me back to the early 1960s, when similar tap devices were manufactured in the UK (by Thorn, I think). I may still have one somewhere. Nasty things! They were real low grade ****. They were replaced by backmatched taps when systems were extended past the original 12 channel systems in the US. They caused mismatch problems, and wasted a lot of the signal on the trunklines or feeders. They worked, more or less on systems with just a few channels, and very few customers, but them, those people were already used to ghosting and snow. They had all been pulled from the 17 systems around Ft Rucker by 1972, including a couple short haul feeds that only had a couple channels. Equally bad on ethernet I expect? Also, does ethernet require them to be non-directional (ie just resistive tap-offs, with no directional coupler)? Ian. -- |
#35
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vampires and power usage
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:00:18 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote: I'd never heard it until it appeared here (about a week ago?). If you have to have a term to describe such power supplies, it's quite a good one. However, it's just one more step down the road where words don't actually mean what they say (most of which seem to originate in the USA). England has loads of slang that the USA doesn't use. Most of which we've never heard. Ask about this on alt.english.usage and the English posters there can give you lots of stuff. I think you are in the position I'm in in our respective countries, knowing few or no people who recent slang. Old slang doesn't capture our attention because we know what it means. Ian. -- |
#36
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vampires and power usage
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:51:20 -0400, Zephyr wrote:
Hey folks, I'm curious about power consumption of things like the power supply for my dell laptop its and AC/DC adaptor, and when the unit is charging my laptop it gets quite warm. from that I infer that its using a fair amount of power. traditionally, transformers do use power even when their device is not on. There is loss in the field. But more modern electronic ones do not require anywhere near as much. Recent cell phones I think are electronic transformers. Those I tend to just leave plugged in, LED and all!! |
#37
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vampires and power usage
mm writes:
I'd like to better understand that and what Dave said. I once asked about the difference between volt-amps and watts and didn't get a real answer iirc. I haven't googled. To calculate watts, you take instantaneous measurements of voltage and current and multiply them together, then integrate (average) the result over some time period. You can do this in analog circuitry using an analog multiplier device, or you can do it digitally by making many measurements of voltage and current per cycle and multiplying them digitally before filtering. Either way, you need a special meter that measures and multiplies two quantities instant by instant. To calculate volt-amps, you measure and integrate voltage and current separately, then multiply the two numbers together. This can be done with two independent ordinary multimeters. If the load is resistive (e.g. an oven, baseboard heater, etc) there is no difference between watts and VA. The current is always in phase with the voltage, the product of the two is always positive, and the two different calculation methods give the same answer. But that's not true of capacitive and inductive loads. In capacitive loads, the current waveform is up to 90 degrees in phase ahead of the voltage waveform (i.e. peak current happens as voltage passes through zero, where its rate of change is greatest). If the phase shift is exactly 90 degrees (pure capacitance), then for half of the cycle the sign of the current and voltage are actually different, and the product of the two is negative for that portion of the cycle. The same is true for inductive loads (e.g. transformer with no load on it, unloaded motor) except the current waveform lags the voltage one by up to 90 degrees. Whenever there is a phase shift between current and voltage, the VA remains the same, but the watts measured are reduced. Effectively, for one portion of the AC cycle the circuit accepts power from the utility, and for another portion of the cycle it feeds some of that power back to the utility. If the phase shift is a full 90 degrees (either ahead or behind), the net power is zero! Both measures are important. Watts is the amount of actual power consumed by your device and converted into heat, light, or mechanical motion. Voltage determines the amount of insulation needed on wires and the number of turns of wire in a transformer, while amps determine the size of wire needed to carry the current and the resistive losses in that wire resulting from current flow. So VA is generally the right measure to use when sizing transformers and wiring, not watts. Dave |
#38
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vampires and power usage
terry writes:
Make that say one tenth of a cent; in other words it will cost around 2 to 2.5 cents per 24 hour day that it is plugged in and not charging. Hardly worth bothering about? For anyone connected to the North American power grid. On the other hand, it might be worth unplugging for off-grid people who generate their electricity by solar panels or windmill and store it in batteries, since their per-kwh cost is likely to be many times higher. Dave |
#39
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vampires and power usage
Ian Jackson writes:
Equally bad on ethernet I expect? Also, does ethernet require them to be non-directional (ie just resistive tap-offs, with no directional coupler)? Ethernet required a direct connection to the conductor of the cable, if I remember correctly. The receiver side was high impedance, so it didn't present a significant load to the signal, and the vampire tap was designed to create only a small hole through the shield and inner dielectric so it wouldn't produce much of an impedance bump. Plus the cable was marked with rings to indicate where you could put a tap without having multiple taps end up a multiple of a wavelength apart. When transmitting, an Ethernet transceiver acted as a current source, putting a fair bit of current into the 25 ohm load (50 ohm cable heading off in each of 2 directions). If two transceivers decided to transmit at the same time, the high DC level on the cable was used to detect a collision. Original Ethernet used a baseband signal, and on a moderate-sized network every station listened to every other one directly. There's no "head end" to echo upstream signals back downstream again. There's no notion of "upstream" and "downstream". Dave |
#40
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vampires and power usage
Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Michael A. Terrell writes Ian Jackson wrote: I'm in the CATV industry, and I've just remembered that, many years ago, I did see reference to 'vampire taps' as being the latest and greatest for coaxial ethernet. That took me back to the early 1960s, when similar tap devices were manufactured in the UK (by Thorn, I think). I may still have one somewhere. Nasty things! Here, they were called "Stinger taps" and I had an unused tap block and stinger, along with the strand clamp and drop hook in my toolbox, until at least 2001. It might still be around, but I haven't used that toolbox in so many years that i don't remember. I brought it home the day i was laid off, then I was declared disabled, and unable to work, so it has been under one of my benches here at home, ever since. They were real low grade ****. They were replaced by backmatched taps when systems were extended past the original 12 channel systems in the US. They caused mismatch problems, and wasted a lot of the signal on the trunklines or feeders. They worked, more or less on systems with just a few channels, and very few customers, but them, those people were already used to ghosting and snow. They had all been pulled from the 17 systems around Ft Rucker by 1972, including a couple short haul feeds that only had a couple channels. Equally bad on ethernet I expect? Also, does ethernet require them to be non-directional (ie just resistive tap-offs, with no directional coupler)? Actually, there are two types of coaxial networking that used 75 ohm cable. The simple, small network like Dave describes below witch were non directional, and one that is usually part of a community loop where pairs of one forward channel, and one return channel are used for data, with a heterodyne signal processor at the headend to upconvert the return channel to a forward channel witch is built with back matched taps. This system predates the current cable modems, but used standard, off the shelf CATV components to build a private WAN along with the RF modems. Some were mixed systems, of RF fed to clusters of the simpler coaxial networking. The first system like that I heard about was the Ohio State University campus in the '70s or early '80s. Their private CATV system connected all the buildings, then tied the existing, smaller networks together. I met two of their IT people at a hamfest, and they were bragging about their design, till I told them about the systems I maintained for the US army, years earlier. There was no return channel equipment on the market, so we had a pair of 12 channel 'Vicoa' (Later called Coral) systems set up as forward and return to carry the weather data from an airfield to the main base where it added to the other nine forward channels that fed the classrooms and airfield ready rooms. We also built the first emergency alert system into a CATV system that took control of the civilian CATV service to the barracks and on base housing. A custom made coaxial relay was added to the existing system to seize control of the private system. The ETV studio was 12 channel, like the civilian system. A toggle switch (with a hinged cover and a lead seal) would feed the same audio and video to all 12 modulators, and switch the remote relay so an alert could be spread, no matter what channel a TV was on. After we proved the concept, it quickly spread to other bases, and new builds of civilian systems. The last system I maintained was a 36 channel RCA headend, in the early '80s. It had the optional IF loop through and auxiliary IF input for the alert system. The Audio and video was fed through a separate modulator with a IF output amp, instead of a channel module. I rewired the rack by strapping the loss of signal output to the relay control, and connected diodes to isolate each channel from the emergency control system. I also looped the emergency video through the local access control room so I could flip one switch and feed the same signal to all 36 channels in an emergency. The loss of signal mod caused a message to appear a half second after the carrier dropped out from a TV station, or satellite feed. That let the tech on night shift check the alignment of the converters after stations signed off, at night. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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