Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.

Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.

The white wire is a neutral, not a ground.

You and your wife go to the same movie; are you identical?

Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.

When everything is working as intended, the white wire carries current
and the green-cooper does not. The only time the white is not carrying
current is when nothing on the pair of circuits is on or when there is
identical load on both legs of the circuit.

In short the without a fault the white can kill you the green can't.

If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it may
suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

You can't safely eliminate either one as they both perform critical
duties and can not be shared legally or safely.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:

If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it may
suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

Don't you mean white here?

Chris

Joseph Meehan wrote:
Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both
go to the same busbar.

When everything is working as intended, the white wire carries
current and the green-cooper does not.
Correct

The only time the white is
not carrying current is when nothing on the pair of circuits is on or
when there is identical load on both legs of the circuit.

Wrong. When all is off, the white wire sits at ground potential. When all
is on, it still sits at ground potential + any tiny voltages created by the
resistance of the wire and depending on the length of the wire.


In short the without a fault the white can kill you the green
can't.

Wrong. When all is OK, the white wire has zero or very nearly zero volts
potential.


If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it
may suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

Only if it were damaged at or outside the main panel.

You can't safely eliminate either one as they both perform critical
duties and can not be shared legally or safely.

True, but your reasoning is all Phhhttt! Please return to studying.

Pop`

Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.

Lots of reasons; it -can- get complicated to explain, but here's one
situation:

Any exposed metal in what's called Class 1 equipment (Stove, fridge, etc)
must be grounded. The green ground wire is used for that ground. Its sole
purpose for existance is safety. In addition, the blk/wh wires are NOT
connected to the exposed metal; doors, cabinet, legs, etc etc. in equipment
in today's equipment; it was different "yesterday". The reasoning here has
to do with "polarity" of the hot/neutral. Should it be reversed, then the
exposed metal would become "hot".
So, if a miswire or fault occurs, which would/could place the exposed
metal at 120V, the green ground wire connection would keep the exposed metal
at ground poetntial instead of letting it go to 120V. In a properly wired
ckt, it would also pop the fuse/breaker. In a miswired ckt the breaker
would still pop since whatever is providing the 120V has to be coming from a
fuse/breaker.
Without the ground wire, touch the exposed metal and any other grounded
point, such as faucets, nearby equipment, cement floor, lamp housing, etc.,
and you might well be electrocuted.

I would recommend some online research for further info; there's a lot of it
available. Also, ignore the other advice here so far; those people are
gussing and goind a bad job of it at that.

HTH,

Pop`

If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it may
suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

Exactly how would that work?
Even if you misspoke and meant white instead of green, it still couldn't.
Yes, there might be a floating neutral and some items could get over 120v,
but they couldn't get 240v.

Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.


Description is backward.
The groundING wire is green (commonly called a ground wire).
The groundED wire is white (commonly called a neutral wire).
Use of these terms in the National Electrical Code is very confusing.

The white wire is groundED at the service. This has 2 parts:
Connection to the earth keeps the hot and white wire voltage to earth at
a safe level.
Connection to the groundING wires provides a path back to the
transformer for fault current to trip a breaker.


The green wire is for groundING exposed metal.
Connection to earth at the service keeps exposed metal at approximate
earth potential.
If there is a fault to exposed metal, the groundING wire will conduct
current back to the service, through the bond to the supply wire that
was groundED, and back to the transfromer to trip a breaker.

As others have noted, the groundED wire normally caries circuit current.
The groundING wire is for safety and normally does not.
--
bud--

Chris Friesen wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it
may suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

Don't you mean white here?

Chris

Sure did. Good catch.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Pop` wrote:
...


True, but your reasoning is all Phhhttt! Please return to studying.

Pop`

Actually if you read what I wrote, I believe you will find it all
correct with the exception of the green/white miss-type.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

On Feb 20, 9:42 am, "Pop`" wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both
go to the same busbar.

When everything is working as intended, the white wire carries
current and the green-cooper does not.

Correct

The only time the white is

not carrying current is when nothing on the pair of circuits is on or
when there is identical load on both legs of the circuit.

Wrong. When all is off, the white wire sits at ground potential. When all
is on, it still sits at ground potential + any tiny voltages created by the
resistance of the wire and depending on the length of the wire.



In short the without a fault the white can kill you the green
can't.

Wrong. When all is OK, the white wire has zero or very nearly zero volts
potential.



If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it
may suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

Only if it were damaged at or outside the main panel.



You can't safely eliminate either one as they both perform critical
duties and can not be shared legally or safely.

True, but your reasoning is all Phhhttt! Please return to studying.

Pop`


Are you saying that if I grab a white wire in a household circuit and
stick my feet in a bathtub of water , that I will be perfectly fine
because both the wire and my feet are at the same potential ???

Maybe I misunderstood you ?

Are you saying that if I grab a white wire in a household circuit and
stick my feet in a bathtub of water , that I will be perfectly fine
because both the wire and my feet are at the same potential ???

That's the truth!

Of course with today's plastic pipes, you might even get away with grabbing
the BLACK (hot) wire.

IF a circuit is fully loaded (but not overloaded) then there might be 1 or 2
(or 3) volts difference between the WHITE and GREEN wires.





Maybe I misunderstood you ?

wrote:
On Feb 20, 9:42 am, "Pop`" wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both
go to the same busbar.

When everything is working as intended, the white wire carries
current and the green-cooper does not.

Correct

The only time the white is

not carrying current is when nothing on the pair of circuits is on
or when there is identical load on both legs of the circuit.

Wrong. When all is off, the white wire sits at ground potential.
When all is on, it still sits at ground potential + any tiny
voltages created by the resistance of the wire and depending on the
length of the wire.



In short the without a fault the white can kill you the green
can't.

Wrong. When all is OK, the white wire has zero or very nearly zero
volts potential.



If the green fails it can damage equipment on that circuit as it
may suddenly get 240V rather than the expected 120V.

Only if it were damaged at or outside the main panel.



You can't safely eliminate either one as they both perform
critical duties and can not be shared legally or safely.

True, but your reasoning is all Phhhttt! Please return to studying.

Pop`


Are you saying that if I grab a white wire in a household circuit and
stick my feet in a bathtub of water , that I will be perfectly fine
because both the wire and my feet are at the same potential ???

Maybe I misunderstood you ?

No, in an ideal world that would be true, the problem is we don't live
in an ideal world. The difference would be that if you cut the white wires
and held one in each hand in an unbalanced load situation you would have
current flowing thought you. If you held the the end connected to the load
and stuck your feet in the tube you could be in trouble. Doing the same
with a properly connected copper ground wires would be safe.

All the above assumes everything is working as it should and Murphy is
not applying his law to you at that time.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Joseph, sorry, but hang on. I've been doing this stuff my whole life
and what you say just isn't practical or worth mentioning in a forum
like this, it's dangerous.. Here's the deal:

1. The white wire is a current carrying conductor, the green wire is
not, under normal conditions, that's the simple answer to the
question, along with number 2 below.
2. The green wire is as has been stated, the wire that will carry any
current imposed on parts of an appliance or other metal surface, so
that a breaker will trip in a shorted circuit.
3. NEVER THINK THAT A WHITE WIRE WON'T SHOCK YOU, YOU WILL DIE. White
wires carry the same amount of current as black wires. When working on
a circuit, always kill power to it first. Discussion about balanced
circuits in this thread or in this group should be left alone because
balanced circuits rarely occur and in the context of this thread, a
single branch circuit, ie, 1 hot, 1neutral and 1 ground, the neutral
will carry current equal to the hot wire, and it can kill you. If a
circuit is energized and you break the neutral connection and hold on
to it while your body is grounded, you won't like what happens,
believe me. This has nothing to do with properly connected ground/
green wires, the white wires still have current on them or stated
another way, they are looking for a ground and if you become that
ground, like you say, you will be sorry, if you live to tell about it.
4. In new construction, the white wire and green wire terminate on
separate busses. So no more terminating on the same bus.

"Pop`" wrote in message
news:7PECh.962$CG5.186@trnddc03...
Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.

Lots of reasons; it -can- get complicated to explain, but here's one
situation:

Any exposed metal in what's called Class 1 equipment (Stove, fridge, etc)
must be grounded. The green ground wire is used for that ground. Its
sole
purpose for existance is safety. In addition, the blk/wh wires are NOT
connected to the exposed metal; doors, cabinet, legs, etc etc. in
equipment
in today's equipment; it was different "yesterday". The reasoning here
has
to do with "polarity" of the hot/neutral. Should it be reversed, then the
exposed metal would become "hot".

Using the "neutral" as a ground was generally used in two specific cases:

1) "High Current" 220/240 volt appliances which means stoves and electric
dryers. Generally speaking, the neutral normally carried a tiny fraction
of the total current. In "modern" stoves, that's just the oven lamp and
the clock/electronics. In the dryer, the motor is still often 120. The
GROUND/NEUTRAL connection was quite solid. The users definitely had
contact with the neutral but in practice it just didn't cause problems.

2) The old style "AC/DC" radios and TVs. It was routine for the chassis
to be connected to the neutral. That's why plugs are "polarized." BUT
these things were insulated and the users didn't actually have contact with
the neutral wire or metal parts that were connected. Now, things are
"double insulated."

dreamchaser wrote:
Joseph, sorry, but hang on. I've been doing this stuff my whole life
and what you say just isn't practical or worth mentioning in a forum
like this, it's dangerous.. Here's the deal:


Please read my messages. I know it is dangerous. See quotes from my
messages:

" Doing the same with a _properly connected_ copper ground wires would be
safe."

" All the above assumes everything is working as it should and Murphy is not
applying his law to you at that time."

"You can't safely eliminate either one as they both perform critical duties
and can not be shared legally or safely."


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

In article , (John Gilmer) writes:

|
| Using the "neutral" as a ground was generally used in two specific cases:
|
| 1) "High Current" 220/240 volt appliances which means stoves and electric
| dryers. Generally speaking, the neutral normally carried a tiny fraction
| of the total current. In "modern" stoves, that's just the oven lamp and
| the clock/electronics.

My new and previous stoves run the broiler element intermittently at
half voltage during bake cycles. The previous stove definitely did
this by driving the broiler element with 120V from neutral to one leg.
I'm pretty sure the new stove does this as well, but I don't have
the schematic in front of me. Not a huge current to be sure, but
something to keep in mind. (I do have a three-wire hookup.)

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article ,
says...


Are you saying that if I grab a white wire in a household circuit and
stick my feet in a bathtub of water , that I will be perfectly fine
because both the wire and my feet are at the same potential ???

That's the truth!

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Electricity follows all possible paths. Grabbing the neutral wire while
standing in a bathtub full of water creates a second path to ground
through your own body, and current *will* flow through that path.
Whether it's enough current to be dangerous depends on the resistance of
the path.

Of course with today's plastic pipes, you might even get away with grabbing
the BLACK (hot) wire.

Tell you what -- why don't you try it, then let us know how well that
works.

IF a circuit is fully loaded (but not overloaded) then there might be 1 or 2
(or 3) volts difference between the WHITE and GREEN wires.

That doesn't matter. There's no current in the green (or bare) wire.
There *is* current in the white wire. Using one's own body to provide a
secondary path to ground for that current isn't very smart.

In article ,
says...

No, in an ideal world that would be true, the problem is we don't live
in an ideal world. The difference would be that if you cut the white wires
and held one in each hand in an unbalanced load situation you would have
current flowing thought you.

You don't have to cut the white wire to get yourself in trouble.
Touching an exposed part of an *intact* neutral creates a parallel path
to ground through your body. Depending on how the resistance of that
path is, you could be in serious trouble.

In article .com,
says...
Are you saying that if I grab a white wire in a household circuit and
stick my feet in a bathtub of water , that I will be perfectly fine
because both the wire and my feet are at the same potential ???

Yeah, that's pretty much what he's saying.

It isn't true, mind you, but that *is* what he's saying.

IF a circuit is fully loaded (but not overloaded) then there might be 1
or 2
(or 3) volts difference between the WHITE and GREEN wires.

That doesn't matter. There's no current in the green (or bare) wire.
There *is* current in the white wire. Using one's own body to provide a
secondary path to ground for that current isn't very smart.

Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
says...

No, in an ideal world that would be true, the problem is we
don't live in an ideal world. The difference would be that if you
cut the white wires and held one in each hand in an unbalanced load
situation you would have current flowing thought you.

You don't have to cut the white wire to get yourself in trouble.
Touching an exposed part of an *intact* neutral creates a parallel
path to ground through your body. Depending on how the resistance of
that path is, you could be in serious trouble.

True.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:02:36 -0500, "John Gilmer"
wrote:



IF a circuit is fully loaded (but not overloaded) then there might be 1
or 2
(or 3) volts difference between the WHITE and GREEN wires.

That doesn't matter. There's no current in the green (or bare) wire.
There *is* current in the white wire. Using one's own body to provide a
secondary path to ground for that current isn't very smart.

Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.



Even if those many amps are flowing THROUGH you?

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:02:36 -0500, "John Gilmer"
wrote:



IF a circuit is fully loaded (but not overloaded) then there might be 1
or 2
(or 3) volts difference between the WHITE and GREEN wires.

That doesn't matter. There's no current in the green (or bare) wire.
There *is* current in the white wire. Using one's own body to provide a
secondary path to ground for that current isn't very smart.

Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.



They could. How many are using you as a conductor?

BTW, was that you crossposting that unexplained "072" file?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.


This is incorrect!! It is the amount of amps that kills you........not
volts!!

You know it's funny. On paper that may be true, and I've always heard that
statement. BUT I've never heard of someone being killed by a 12 volt
battery, and when you do hear about someone being killed by electricity,
it's always some higher voltage.

--
Steve Barker




"avid_hiker" wrote in message
ups.com...

Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.


This is incorrect!! It is the amount of amps that kills you........not
volts!!

On Feb 23, 9:32 am, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
You know it's funny. On paper that may be true, and I've always heard that
statement. BUT I've never heard of someone being killed by a 12 volt
battery, and when you do hear about someone being killed by electricity,
it's always some higher voltage.

--
Steve Barker

"avid_hiker" wrote in message

ups.com...





Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.

This is incorrect!! It is the amount of amps that kills you........not
volts!!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

DC vs. AC current - Alternating current ( 60hz), if passing through
your heart, will basically make your heart ( depending on the amount
of current) beat at 60 beats/second or 3600 times a minute, therefore
fibrillating your heart. The more current the more dangerous to one
self. A lowvoltage ( 12vdc) line can not possibly produce as much
current as a 120vac or dc line...... E ( voltage )= I (current) times
R ( resistance ). Your body, depending on where this current is
passing through, has a certain amount of resistance. A DC line,
referring to current passing through your heart, will still kill
you...........dont get me wrong.........which wont fibrillate your
heart, but will completely stop your heart from beating if enough
current is present.( Note -that your heart beats by electrical
signals.)

But yes.......your correct in a way.........that the more voltage is
more dangerous........but using the formula.........the more voltage-
the more current :-)

Dean

In article ,
says...


IF a circuit is fully loaded (but not overloaded) then there might be 1
or 2
(or 3) volts difference between the WHITE and GREEN wires.

That doesn't matter. There's no current in the green (or bare) wire.
There *is* current in the white wire. Using one's own body to provide a
secondary path to ground for that current isn't very smart.

Don't be silly.

A few volts will not harm you. It doesn't matter whether the wires are
carrying no current or are carrying many amps.

I'm not being silly, just prudent. You, on the other hand, are wrong.
Possibly DEAD wrong. Your assumption that only "a few volts" will pass
through your body has no basis. How much you get depends only on how
much resistance there is in the parallel path that you've created
through your own body, and how much resistance there is in the neutral
conductor. Furthermore, it doesn't take very much alternating current at
60Hz to stop a human heart, either.

Bottom line: the assumption that it is safe, under all circumstances, to
touch the neutral conductor of an energized circuit, is a false
assumption.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:44:12 -0500, "John Gilmer"
wrote:


"Pop`" wrote in message
news:7PECh.962$CG5.186@trnddc03...
Herb and Eneva wrote:
Will someone please explain the difference between the grounding
wire---white, and the grounded wire---green, in a circut? They both go
to the same busbar.

Lots of reasons; it -can- get complicated to explain, but here's one
situation:

Any exposed metal in what's called Class 1 equipment (Stove, fridge, etc)
must be grounded. The green ground wire is used for that ground. Its
sole
purpose for existance is safety. In addition, the blk/wh wires are NOT
connected to the exposed metal; doors, cabinet, legs, etc etc. in
equipment
in today's equipment; it was different "yesterday". The reasoning here
has
to do with "polarity" of the hot/neutral. Should it be reversed, then the
exposed metal would become "hot".

Using the "neutral" as a ground was generally used in two specific cases:

1) "High Current" 220/240 volt appliances which means stoves and electric
dryers. Generally speaking, the neutral normally carried a tiny fraction
of the total current. In "modern" stoves, that's just the oven lamp and
the clock/electronics. In the dryer, the motor is still often 120. The
GROUND/NEUTRAL connection was quite solid. The users definitely had
contact with the neutral but in practice it just didn't cause problems.

Maybe I'm confused but why is this not using the neutral as a neutral?
For the 110v portion of the appliance, a hot and a neutral are
required. Why is this not what is here.

2) The old style "AC/DC" radios and TVs. It was routine for the chassis
to be connected to the neutral. That's why plugs are "polarized." BUT

Plugs are polarized now, but you refer to "old style". Again, maybe
I'm confused but I thought there had been AC/DC radiosd all my life
and more when I was younger when nothing had a polarized plug.

these things were insulated and the users didn't actually have contact with
the neutral wire or metal parts that were connected. Now, things are

In one case, the case only covered the top and 4 sides, and the rear
had a chip in it so that the chassis sometimes rested on a metal table
we had. If I then touched that table and the stainless steel trim
around the front of the Formica counter in the kitchen, I got a small
buzz feeling. I still have the radio, but I've never fixed it. ;(

"double insulated."

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article ,
says...

No, in an ideal world that would be true, the problem is we don't
live
in an ideal world. The difference would be that if you cut the white
wires
and held one in each hand in an unbalanced load situation you would have
current flowing thought you.

As anybody who works much with electricity will tell you you can and will
get bit off an intact neutral in any number of situations. It is part of the
circuit and if current is flowing anywhere in the circuit it can flow
through there too. It usually happens when somebody turns off a switch and
not the breaker and starts grabbing wires. Seen it lots of times.