I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?

Amy.

Amy L wrote:
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?

Amy.

I have a Power Boss, Briggs and Stratton engine and generac generator
unit from Home Depot. It is noisy but does the job. Honda's are said
to be the best but cost nearly twice as much. It was the Honda dealer
that told me to look for a generator with the generac unit and the Home
Depot guys said that during high buying generator periods, they even
get in off brands with Honda engines. Honda guys also told me to avoid
Colemans. They are cheaper but hard to get spare parts.

You also want to talk to an electrician about installing a transfer box
which will cost about as much as the generator to buy and have them
install. Transfer box will wire in items you wish to control and cut
out feedback to fuse box and line.

Frank

Amy L wrote:
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations.
I am looking for something that is strong enough that could power the
heater, sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all
at once). I am also looking for something that has 240 out in
addition to 120 so I can backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you
used or heard of other using with good success?

Amy.

I have a Coleman 5000 Watt, 30A unit; 120 and 240 out, battery start,
auto-idle under no-load, and wired to a transfer switch for 8 years now.
Works like a charm, never a problem, not very loud, hardly hear it from
indoors. It can power my 1 HP well pump and the fridge, or without the
well pump, lites, garage doors, TV, radio, coffee pot, microwave, etc etc..
The Transfer switch has current meters on the front so it's easy to check
how much current is being drawn on each leg of the 240; keep blanced, in
other words.

Next time, if/when this one gives out though, I plan to go for a diesel
powered unit. Gasoline in any useful quantity is difficult to store safely
and must be outdoors, and since we're at 9 degrees F at the moment, I'd hate
have to be going out to fill the tank.
So my next one will be diesel; that fuel can be stored in the garage at
least, in properly marked containers and my ins company, fire dept, etc.,
have said they'd give that kind of storage their blessing. Gasoline is
another whole story.

24 hours of "low" usage will eat up the 5 gallon gas tank on the Coleman
and in harder use, it'll take closer to ten gallons to do 24 hours. So, to
keep say 5 days of emergency fuel on hand it takes a fair amount of gasoline
to have to store! We live on 5 acres & love lawn work so using up the gas
before it gets too old isn't a problem for us, but it could be for others.
Yes, I've tried to figure out how to siphon gas from the cars easily; no
can do, in case anyone has any ideas on how to do that. During the Storm of
'98, I had to pull the fuel line off the Buick's carb and use a clip to
power the car's fuel pump in order to get more gas. Baby, it gets COLD
outside!! G We didn't have power to 7 1/2 days.
I heat with #1 Fuel oil, so getting it from our furnace pump for the
generator would be a cinch; I wouldn't even have to keep much of a spare
supply on hand as long as the generator was running; much better fuel
source from a practical view.
NO experience with diesel units, but willing to learn when the time
comes!

HTH
Pop`

I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations.
CY: That's much different than a working generator for a farm or some
other situation.

I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the
heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at
once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I
can
backfeed the house.
CY: Please consider a unit that runs on natural gas.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
CY: Honda has the best reputation. Much truth the concept "you get
about what you pay for".

2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
CY: All of those. For occasional use, the repairs are less of an
issue. Gas efficiency should be about the same for em all. Worse for
some.

3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used
or
heard of other using with good success?
CY: I got a two cycle (mix gas and oil) generator from Ebay. Very
pleased with it. Only run it once, but the one time I did it was
quiet, and started on the third pull.

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:46:43 -0500, "Amy L" wrote:

I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?

Amy.


As others have said, Honda is well respected.

First you have to decide if you want whole house automatic backup, or
will be content to manually hook up the generator and transfer the
loads when the power goes out. It sounds like you are thinking the
latter.


Get a bigger unit than you think you will need. You don't say what
kind of heat you have. If it's a gas furnace, it's not a big load.
If it's electric or an electric heat pump, it's a *big* load. Well
pumps are another big load, especially when they are starting.

Electric start is best on any but the smallest unit. My wife just
could not start the 5k watt Honda unit I used to have (not that it was
hard to start, I could start it on one pull every time, she just
wasn't strong enough to pull the starter rope) the 7.5 kwatt unit I
have now is electric start and it's no problem. Downside is you have
to keep it where you can keep the charger plugged in.

Get a transfer switch.

A brushless alternator is best.

Don't ever let the generator sit with Gasoline in the carb. When
shutting it off, instead of using the kill switch, turn off the fuel
valve and let it run dry (disconnect the load first, of course)
(assuming you buy a gas unit, not a diesel)

Use Stabil in the gas. Always.

Start it up every month or so, let it run for a few minutes, and shut
ti down. You don't want find out at an inconvenient time that
something is wrong.

Check out www.nooutage.com

I've not bought a generator there, but have bought other stuff. And
they have lots of good info.

HTH,

Paul

"Amy L" wrote in message
...
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I
am looking for something that is strong enough that could power the
heater, sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at
once). I am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to
120 so I can backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?

1) If you can afford them, Honda or Yamaha. (I have a Kawasaki, but that is
essentially a Honda...) People use Colemans and other crap all the time,
but I sure wouldn't want one as an emergency device.
2) AVR, automatic voltage regulation. Without it you are endangering
anything you plug in to it. Since only "better" generators have it, it is
also sort of a seal of approval. Again, many people do without, but it just
isn't worth the risk. The HVAC company I use had three furnaces burn out
from cheap generators during the last big power outage..
3) I bought my Honda from Mayberrys. I wouldn't worry much about buying on
line.

If you are going to run the sump pump, you need something pretty big to
start it. If possible I would get a battery powered backup for the sump
pump so you can get a more reasonably sized generator; you can always charge
the battery off the generator. Get an amp meter and test all the items you
want to run; until you do that you won't know what you need. Buying gas
during an emergency can be a real problem, so you don't want to need any
more than necessary.

Frank wrote:
Amy L wrote:
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?

Amy.

I have a Power Boss, Briggs and Stratton engine and generac generator
unit from Home Depot. It is noisy but does the job. Honda's are said
to be the best but cost nearly twice as much. It was the Honda dealer
that told me to look for a generator with the generac unit and the Home
Depot guys said that during high buying generator periods, they even
get in off brands with Honda engines. Honda guys also told me to avoid
Colemans. They are cheaper but hard to get spare parts.

You also want to talk to an electrician about installing a transfer box
which will cost about as much as the generator to buy and have them
install. Transfer box will wire in items you wish to control and cut
out feedback to fuse box and line.

Frank


The transfer interlock kit that transfers the entire house is an item I
can install for two hundred including parts. If someone tries to charge
five hundred or more for that work they are not an electrician they're a
con artist.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Well if you can only afford 300$ be happy , the good stuff costs 3000+
so count your days....

Amy L wrote:
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations.
I am looking for something that is strong enough that could power the
heater, sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all
at once). I am also looking for something that has 240 out in
addition to 120 so I can backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you
used or heard of other using with good success?

If you store the generator in the garage between uses, make sure it has
wheels to be able to get it to wherever you want to attach.

In addition to the fuel, you'll be wise to keep a couple of quarts of oil on
hand.

Keep a log book of when you use/test the machine.

A nice touch is a concrete pad next to the service panel for the generator
to sit on (imagine the mud or snow during a storm). Further, a little shed
over the pad will make things ever so much handier.

A bunch of heavy-duty extension cords might come in handy. Imagine the
situation where power is not expected to be off for an extended time. An
extension cord to the TV set may be all you need for an hour or two's down
time. You could start up the gizmo in the garage and get back to watching
American Idol in five minutes.

The transfer interlock kit that transfers the entire house is an item I
can install for two hundred including parts. If someone tries to charge
five hundred or more for that work they are not an electrician they're a
con artist.
--

Along with the transfer panel, I had the whole house panel replaced at
advice of electrician. Whole job cost about $1,400. I did not do this
lightly and relied also on advice of others, one a retired electical
contractor supervisor, who said I was getting a good price. My 30+
year old panel was said to be undependable as breakers might not trip.
Electrician was recommended by a neighbor whose generator panel was
installed by. My job was actually cheaper since boxes are at end of
garage and generator is kept there to wheel out just a few feet. Job
was inspected by a County inspection dept. I know you can DIY cheaper,
like one neighbor did, but I think transfer panels cost at least $200.
I've used the unit 3 times since installed last January and it works
fine.

Frank

HeyBub wrote:

A nice touch is a concrete pad next to the service panel for the generator
to sit on (imagine the mud or snow during a storm). Further, a little shed
over the pad will make things ever so much handier.

Just make sure it is not close to a window or any vent (dryer etc). If
it's placed to close to the house you have the possibility of carbon
monoxide seeping into the house. Better to wake up cold than to NOT
wake up at all.

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:46:43 -0500, "Amy L" wrote:

I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.
You need to define "heater" i.e furnace, gas heater, heat pump,
electric heat,??? Makes a big difference. How necessary is it that
the sump pump run continuously? Basement flood? Could be a big item.
There are work arounds for sump pumps.
How long is the power out in worst case - hours, days??

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
Honda, but look at those Northstar (see below) generators which have
Honda engines. The Northstar I have also has automatic voltage
regulation and I have not hesitated to use my PCs, TV, etc when
running this generator
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
To me, reliability is also an issue. You want it to start when you
want it to start. Now, mine has an electric start, and when I see a
hurricane or n'oreaster coming I plug it in and let it recharge. I
have run it daily for up to 8 days, hence gas efficiency, or at least
a big tank on the generator is handy. Also, unless this is a
permanent installation and you buy anything of size, get a wheel kit
for it so you can move it around easily.
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?
If I got it from Northern Tool and Equipment (which, depending on
where you are, may also have a store near you)
http://www.northerntool.com
Ask them to mail you a catalog
Can't tell you as to size, but there are sizing quides available
online.
Here is a typical day for Roy and his 5 KW Northstar, so you can get
an idea of some of the considerations of using one. First, in my case,
no hot water heater and no a/c-heat pump with this size. I have the
originally installed boiler which can heat the house and/or hot water
for showers if needed.
Rise about 6 a.m. (x-military; it's when I get up).Wheel generator out
of garage onto driveway, ensure power feed to house is still connected
Check oil, gas up the gen. Ensure house is still off the power grid,
and those circuits in the house I don't want on are off. See also
last entry, as we don't want to start with the normal house generator
load all on.
Start the gen and then bring on the house load. I use microwave to
cook, but do run TVs, the PCs and the coffee pot. Specifically cut
off are the dryer, the water heater and the ac/heat pump.
Boiler is off, but wife and I agree when we want a shower, turn the
boiler on about a half hour before, take our showers and then secure
the boiler. Small quantities of hot water come from the coffee pot
and/or the micrwave. If power loss is in winter, then I leave the
boiler on as it heats the house. An oil burner burns less electricity
than a heat pump
About 2-3 p.m., strip the house load and secure the generator. Check
oil (change if required) and refill gas. Restart generator and add
house load.
About 11 p.m., after all are in bed, I take a flashlight out to the
garage, strip the houseload, turn off the generator and wheel it back
into the garage (total move is about 10'). We secure the generator at
night so that we and the neighbors can sleep.
I recommend a transfer switch installation. We have a neighbor lady
who is in her 70s, who wheels her generator out each day as I do,
connects it to her transfer switch, and is good for the day.
YMMV, but if I can help with any questions, please feel free to write.
There are lots of decisions you will need to make before you buy, as
to what you want to do, and what you will be comfortable with.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_...c/1275631.html

http://www.smps.us/home-generators.html ensure you go to the bottom
of the page and click on interesting links

home depot sells auto standby generators pretty affordably today

when the power fails it starts and transfers key loads to back up power
automatically and will run forever quietely on natura gas or propane if
you have either. requires no work and no one home. so if power quits
and your not home your sump pump and furnace work normally even in sub
zero temps.

requires professional installation..... for safety reasons. and yearly
service, it exercises itself weekly starts and runs for a few minutes
so its good to go in emergency.

really nice they were quoting under 4 grand for smaller ones installed
but unsure if that price was accurate. seemed kinda low.........

I'm not sure what the budget limits are here, but I have to offer the
option of considering a permanently installed, natural gas powered,
automatic generator. The units I am suggesting start at 7KW power for around
$1600 with careful shopping, and cost another $1000 to professionally
install (or about $30 if you can do it yourself).

Unlike the complex sequence described below which fails to mention running
to the gas station to buy fuel to replenish the generator (assuming the gas
station has electricity to pump gas in the first place), the solution I
suggest has no operational schedule.

If the power fails, the generator kicks in automatically, the house load is
transferred, the fuel supply is immediately availalable, and not a finger is
lifted. The switchover time is less than 30 seconds. Same thing in the
opposite direction when power is restored.

The Generac Guardians (by far the largest selling brand) offer UltraQuiet
units which are barely noticeable. I bought mine from Amazon and it showed
up in less than a week with free delivery.

Frankly, I find the notion of gasoline powered backup generators to only
make sense in areas where alternative fuel is not available. A recent 9 day
power outage in my area, where over 400,000 people where left without
electricity for well over a week, caused the local Home Depots to sell
***several thousand*** Generacs to a lot of our local residents including
those who went to the gas stations locally hoping to find gas and all they
came home with were empty gas cans.....

Smarty

"Roy Starrin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:46:43 -0500, "Amy L" wrote:

I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I
am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.
You need to define "heater" i.e furnace, gas heater, heat pump,
electric heat,??? Makes a big difference. How necessary is it that
the sump pump run continuously? Basement flood? Could be a big item.
There are work arounds for sump pumps.
How long is the power out in worst case - hours, days??

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
Honda, but look at those Northstar (see below) generators which have
Honda engines. The Northstar I have also has automatic voltage
regulation and I have not hesitated to use my PCs, TV, etc when
running this generator
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
To me, reliability is also an issue. You want it to start when you
want it to start. Now, mine has an electric start, and when I see a
hurricane or n'oreaster coming I plug it in and let it recharge. I
have run it daily for up to 8 days, hence gas efficiency, or at least
a big tank on the generator is handy. Also, unless this is a
permanent installation and you buy anything of size, get a wheel kit
for it so you can move it around easily.
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?
If I got it from Northern Tool and Equipment (which, depending on
where you are, may also have a store near you)
http://www.northerntool.com
Ask them to mail you a catalog
Can't tell you as to size, but there are sizing quides available
online.
Here is a typical day for Roy and his 5 KW Northstar, so you can get
an idea of some of the considerations of using one. First, in my case,
no hot water heater and no a/c-heat pump with this size. I have the
originally installed boiler which can heat the house and/or hot water
for showers if needed.
Rise about 6 a.m. (x-military; it's when I get up).Wheel generator out
of garage onto driveway, ensure power feed to house is still connected
Check oil, gas up the gen. Ensure house is still off the power grid,
and those circuits in the house I don't want on are off. See also
last entry, as we don't want to start with the normal house generator
load all on.
Start the gen and then bring on the house load. I use microwave to
cook, but do run TVs, the PCs and the coffee pot. Specifically cut
off are the dryer, the water heater and the ac/heat pump.
Boiler is off, but wife and I agree when we want a shower, turn the
boiler on about a half hour before, take our showers and then secure
the boiler. Small quantities of hot water come from the coffee pot
and/or the micrwave. If power loss is in winter, then I leave the
boiler on as it heats the house. An oil burner burns less electricity
than a heat pump
About 2-3 p.m., strip the house load and secure the generator. Check
oil (change if required) and refill gas. Restart generator and add
house load.
About 11 p.m., after all are in bed, I take a flashlight out to the
garage, strip the houseload, turn off the generator and wheel it back
into the garage (total move is about 10'). We secure the generator at
night so that we and the neighbors can sleep.
I recommend a transfer switch installation. We have a neighbor lady
who is in her 70s, who wheels her generator out each day as I do,
connects it to her transfer switch, and is good for the day.
YMMV, but if I can help with any questions, please feel free to write.
There are lots of decisions you will need to make before you buy, as
to what you want to do, and what you will be comfortable with.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_...c/1275631.html

http://www.smps.us/home-generators.html ensure you go to the bottom
of the page and click on interesting links

Amy L wrote:
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.
.. . .

I don't think you need a 240V generator to backfeed the house. All you
would need to do is connect the 120V output to both legs of the breaker
box and make sure you turn off your 240V appliances. You would also
need to make sure the neutral wire in the house is large enough to
carry the current, but I doubt if that would be a problem since 120V
generators don't put out much current anyway.

Is it just me, or has this question been answered at
great length? How about Googling "generator recommendations
and advise" and getting back more good information than one
could ever hope for?

Anyway........

One thing that is rarely mentioned is how much gas is needed
to run a generator, assuming you're not paying out thousands
for a diesel unit.
If an ice storm hits the northeast and there's a massive power
outage, where's all that gas going to come from to power all
those appliances you wish to power?

We went without power for 15 days after Hurricane Charlie
tore our place apart. I ran a 10 hp coleman and could only
get 5 hours out of 5 gallons of gas, so we ran it 5 hours and
roughed it until the next evening. If you plan on getting gas
out of your vehicles, invest in a good quality siphon pump.
I bought a cheap $10 one and it leaked badly.

What most people don't consider is that during these times
of emergency, not only is gas scarce or not available, but
if there are some gas stations open, everybody and his brother
is there trying to get gas. It was a major pain getting gas
in our area during that time.

I know people who have big generators properly set to be
switched into the house breaker box, all set for that big
disaster.......but they are lucky to have 2 1/2 gallons of gas
hanging around! It's like whistling through through the
graveyard.

After the 3 major hurricane's (Charlie, Frances and Jean)
passed us by within a few weeks and caused all kinds of
havoc, I went out and bought a smaller, more quality Honda
2500 watt unit that will run much longer on scarce gas.
In a real emergency you'd be surprised how much power
you _really_ need. I've been there/done that and would
rather have 12 hours of 2500 watts than 5 hours of 5000 watts
assuming gas is precious.

If you go without power for days in a real emergency, A
generator is just part of your need. Plan on storing a lot
of gas. Keep yourself stocked with food and water. '
If a disaster strikes, trust me- there will be no food, water,
batteries or any other related necessities available on
any store shelf, assuming any store will be open.
You had better have those things beforehand.

One thing that was helpful to us during many days of
power outage was the many rechargable flashlights and
batteries I had (from my dewalt and makita tool kits). They
give you great light for many hours, and can be charged
during the time the generator is running.

An important investment for anyone wanting a generator
would be the great rechargable flashlights that go with
cordless drill kits. You can buy these flashlights separately
and the batteries separately if you don't want the drill.
I have the Craftsman, Makita and Dewalt flashlights and
they were priceless when we needed light during those
15 days without power we had.

I know I've spouted out too much but only because I "lived"
this generator question in a real life disaster, with my home
and property badly trashed on top of it, along with my part
of the state.

A generator is great, but it's only a part of the survival puzzle.

thetiler

Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department wrote:
Frank wrote:



The transfer interlock kit that transfers the entire house is an item I
can install for two hundred including parts. If someone tries to charge
five hundred or more for that work they are not an electrician they're a
con artist.

Perhaps you can install it for that, but where will you buy one for
that? The transfer switch itself can cost three hundred (for a small,4
or 6 circuit) or more. Think about it, a manual transfer switch is
basically two, interlocked, breaker panels in one box. Two breakers for
each circuit transfered. Only busses on the generator side. Unique
physical lay-out for the interlock device. Two pig-tails for each
circuit, one from the main panel, and one to return to the circuit.

It is too bad that no one has built a main panel with provisions built
in for this... It would be much easier to have redundant MAINS breakers,
interlocked, and then power the breaker busses from the mains or the
generator as required, than to put the mains breaker and the transfer
breaker in series, and switch from the transfer breaker to the generator
breaker in the transfer switch. Also, you would only need to flip one
breaker, move the interlock, and flip the other breaker, instead of
going down one side flipping one for each transfer circuit, move the
interlock, and back up the other side, flipping one each again. Then
repeat when mains power comes back on-line.

Pictu http://www.dol.net/~frank.logullo/generate.jpg



Along with the transfer panel, I had the whole house panel replaced at
advice of electrician. Whole job cost about $1,400. I did not do this
lightly and relied also on advice of others, one a retired electical
contractor supervisor, who said I was getting a good price. My 30+
year old panel was said to be undependable as breakers might not trip.
Electrician was recommended by a neighbor whose generator panel was
installed by. My job was actually cheaper since boxes are at end of
garage and generator is kept there to wheel out just a few feet. Job
was inspected by a County inspection dept. I know you can DIY cheaper,
like one neighbor did, but I think transfer panels cost at least $200.
I've used the unit 3 times since installed last January and it works
fine.

Frank

wrote:
home depot sells auto standby generators pretty affordably today

when the power fails it starts and transfers key loads to back up power
automatically and will run forever quietely on natura gas or propane if
you have either. requires no work and no one home. so if power quits
and your not home your sump pump and furnace work normally even in sub
zero temps.

Just make sure that you have plenty of gas pressure or a large, private
supply of propane, and if on utility gas, none of your neighbors have
the same idea. Lots of people with these type units in Western New York
found out the hard way this fall when that freak early wet snow had some
out of power over a week. When all those natural gas generators kicked
on the pressure dropped so much that they couldn't run. My friends with
the 8kW Generac gasoline power unit had power whenever they wanted it.
To keep peace with the neighbors, and conserve gasoline (couldn't buy
any with no power at the gas stations), they ran three hours in a.m. and
three hours in p.m. They have a ten circuit manual transfer panel, and
were able to watch TV, cook, run furnace, etc.

They were asking about a permanent installation model, which is how I
found out about the pressure problems. I have also found out about a new
Honda model that uses a DC generator, and an AC INVERTER (True Sine) to
allow the engine rpm to vary with load. Most "generators" (really
alternators) require 3600 rpm to produce 60Hz Alternating Current, so
they run at near full output all the time, regardless of load. This new
Honda varies the DC output to the AC INVERTER, which creates the 60Hz
Alternating Current, voltage regulated to 120/240. The higher the load,
the faster the engine runs up to max. The lower the load, the slower it
runs, conserving fuel.


requires professional installation..... for safety reasons. and yearly
service, it exercises itself weekly starts and runs for a few minutes
so its good to go in emergency.

really nice they were quoting under 4 grand for smaller ones installed
but unsure if that price was accurate. seemed kinda low.........

thetiler wrote:
Is it just me, or has this question been answered at
great length? How about Googling "generator recommendations
and advise" and getting back more good information than one
could ever hope for?

Anyway........

One thing that is rarely mentioned is how much gas is needed
to run a generator, assuming you're not paying out thousands
for a diesel unit.
If an ice storm hits the northeast and there's a massive power
outage, where's all that gas going to come from to power all
those appliances you wish to power?

We went without power for 15 days after Hurricane Charlie
tore our place apart. I ran a 10 hp coleman and could only
get 5 hours out of 5 gallons of gas, so we ran it 5 hours and
roughed it until the next evening. If you plan on getting gas
out of your vehicles, invest in a good quality siphon pump.
I bought a cheap $10 one and it leaked badly.

What most people don't consider is that during these times
of emergency, not only is gas scarce or not available, but
if there are some gas stations open, everybody and his brother
is there trying to get gas. It was a major pain getting gas
in our area during that time.

I know people who have big generators properly set to be
switched into the house breaker box, all set for that big
disaster.......but they are lucky to have 2 1/2 gallons of gas
hanging around! It's like whistling through through the
graveyard.

After the 3 major hurricane's (Charlie, Frances and Jean)
passed us by within a few weeks and caused all kinds of
havoc, I went out and bought a smaller, more quality Honda
2500 watt unit that will run much longer on scarce gas.
In a real emergency you'd be surprised how much power
you _really_ need. I've been there/done that and would
rather have 12 hours of 2500 watts than 5 hours of 5000 watts
assuming gas is precious.

If you go without power for days in a real emergency, A
generator is just part of your need. Plan on storing a lot
of gas. Keep yourself stocked with food and water. '
If a disaster strikes, trust me- there will be no food, water,
batteries or any other related necessities available on
any store shelf, assuming any store will be open.
You had better have those things beforehand.

One thing that was helpful to us during many days of
power outage was the many rechargable flashlights and
batteries I had (from my dewalt and makita tool kits). They
give you great light for many hours, and can be charged
during the time the generator is running.

An important investment for anyone wanting a generator
would be the great rechargable flashlights that go with
cordless drill kits. You can buy these flashlights separately
and the batteries separately if you don't want the drill.
I have the Craftsman, Makita and Dewalt flashlights and
they were priceless when we needed light during those
15 days without power we had.

I know I've spouted out too much but only because I "lived"
this generator question in a real life disaster, with my home
and property badly trashed on top of it, along with my part
of the state.

A generator is great, but it's only a part of the survival puzzle.

thetiler

Glad I got interested in this thread because it sent me out to crank
mine up to test it.
http://www.dol.net/~frank.logullo/generate.jpg
Took about 10 tries. It had probably been about 4 months since used in
an outage in the summer and that is too long to let sit. Someone told
me his son put in one of those large automatic units since he lives out
in the country and is often away on business and wants wife and kids to
be comfortable. First power failure, he was away, wife and kids home,
and unit failed to work.

Absolutely right with comments on fuel. Those in the path of hurricane
need be concerned with availability of gasoline. I do not have that
problem but have no natural gas line in neighborhood. I keep generator
full and have two 5 gal tanks. Would use 10 gal/day but turning off
and using judiciously can get by with 5 gal/day. My big concerns are
heat and well water. Coleman gasoline lantern, gas stove, flashlights
etc also needed.

Frank

theres a main breaker lockout kit available for some panels.

either main breaker on or backup breaker on but never both. you have to
use the main panel to manage the loads since everything can be powered,
some advantages to that.

its under 30 bucks a real bargain and UL approved

"Husky" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Just make sure that you have plenty of gas pressure or a large, private
supply of propane, and if on utility gas, none of your neighbors have the
same idea. Lots of people with these type units in Western New York found
out the hard way this fall when that freak early wet snow had some out of
power over a week. When all those natural gas generators kicked on the
pressure dropped so much that they couldn't run. My friends with the 8kW
Generac gasoline power unit had power whenever they wanted it.

I have heard opinions on both sides of this issue as to whether natural gas
supply and pressure actually drops in an area when a storm hits thus
crippling emergency generators, or if gas pressure and supply actually
improves since the vast majority of people without electricity cannot use
their furnaces, dryers, ovens, etc. thereby leaving a greater supply for
those who can draw natural gas. Our local gas company also claims that they
manufacture gas powered electricity to run their distribution system to
avoid dependency on local electrical supply. My experience being in the very
heart of a recent extended outage in Amherst New York was that homes with
natural gas generators including my next door neighbor ***had electricity***
but that gasoline was extremely difficult if not impossible to find on a
continuing basis for those with gasoline powered generators.

What actual experiences have people encountered elsewhere?

Thanks,

Smarty

I doubt natural gas troubles upon a storm, and have NEVER seen a report
like that!

Having a variety of back ups is good.

main generator preferably on natural gas. along with a decent sized
inverter to convert 12 volts from vehicle to 120 plus some 12 volt
bulbs, home depot sells 40 watt 12 volt bulbs, put in trouble light
with adapter cord to converty 120 to 12 volt battery clips.
flashlights, batteries, hand crank radio, wood stove or fireplace with
some firewood. and a supply of bottled water. power failures can cause
water shortages. in hot areas a smnall window AC unit can provide comfy
shared space if needed where even a large generator might have trouble
running a whole house AC

We got an 11Kw on-demand propane-powered Coleman generator with a HONDA
engine for the beach house. It fires weekly & runs 12 minutes at a time
- we keep check of the runnings. We upgraded our propane tank to 250
pounder (from twin 75s for stove) & feel comfortable we will be
comfortable for a week or so at a time with judicious use of utilities.
I like the 2 year warranty that came with the Coleman & feel fortunate
to have found a reliable & responsive company to install & service
generator & transfer switch. They stand behind all their work to date.
Good luck in your search.

Amy L wrote:
I have a couple of questions for those who went down this path.

I am interested in purchasing a generator for "emergency" situations. I am
looking for something that is strong enough that could power the heater,
sump pump, Fridge, etc (also, it does not need to do this all at once). I
am also looking for something that has 240 out in addition to 120 so I can
backfeed the house.

1.) What are the good brands of generators?
2.) Is there anything I should specifically look for in a generator
(warranty, serviceability, reliability, gas efficiency)?
3.) Would you ever purchase one online? If so what site have you used or
heard of other using with good success?

Amy.

Hi Amy,

I live in the NorthEast and last year went through 5 days without
power. A tree knocked out the power lines. No water (we are on a well)
and no heat. After the recovery we had burst pipes and mashed HVAC
units. All the copper coils were broken.

One way of looking at the generator and instalation is cost pricing
points. I sort of think of three price breakdowns:

1) Gasoline powered portable units $US 700 to about $US 2700 for Honda
i7000AB
then add maybe $1,000 for a transfer switch and professional
electrician to install
and hookup.
2) Fixed units up to the 12Kw range. e.g. Generacs from home depot.
These are essentially
air cooled lawn mower type engines, running at 3,600 rpm. They cost
about $US 2,700 to $US 3,500 for the unit and maybe $US 2,000 to $US
3,000 for transfer switch and installation. I was quoted $US 11,000 for
one here in New York. But I needed quite a bit done. The units are
liftable by 4 men, and they can be installed on gravel foundations,
saving cost in avoiding concrete foundations (local building code
dependent).
3) Fixed units 15Kw and up, runs at 1,800 rpm, water cooled with oil
filter. These units are based on car / truck engines. Cost is about $US
8,000 to $US 14,000 with installation at about $US 8,000 and up. There
is a sigificant jump between this and type 2 mainly because of weight.
You will need a concrete pad and a back-hoe type machine to life the
generator which weighs about 1,200 lbs and up.

Most people I know around me went for type 2. I have a type 3
installation. I bought the generator from Costco, an older model
Cummins Onan RS2000 about a year ago. The cost of the generator was $US
9,000 including a 200 AMP automatic transfer switch. Total cost was $US
21,000. I also had a 400 gallon propane tank installed. My units burns
though about 3 gallons of propane per hour.

The unit I have is quite nice in that it is quieter than other units,
will power up my central AC and about 50% of my house. I have well
pump, ejector pump, furnace, fridge, HVAC air handlers, centeral air
and lighting circuits connected up. Big power users such as double
ovens and dryer are not connected. In case of a power outage everything
is automatic and lights come back on in 20 seconds. The generator is
keeped warm all year long with its own thermostatically controlled
water heater.

I also know alot of people who have type 1 installation because of
cost. This is a good way to go if you are prepared for some work
arounds.

a) You need to have alot of gasoline stored. In may area a 20 gallon
limit is enforced due to fire hazard. You need to put in a fuel
stabilizer such as STABIL (Home Depot), and refresh your gasoline stock
every autumn. I think 20 gallons will give you approx 24 hours constant
run time on a portable unit.

b) You need to have a good place to put your generator while it is
running. This has to be outside because of carbon monoxide poisioning
risks to you and some distance say 5 feet from your house because of
fire risk. The place needs to be sheltered from wind, snow and falling
tree limbs. This is because you do not want your power outlets on your
portable generator to get wet, and possibly electicute you if you touch
it by accident.

c) You need to be prepared to refill your power generator with gasoline
every five hours or so. Be careful because a hot generator and gasoline
poses a fire risk. Keep you generator therefore some distance from your
house. If you have 5 gallon plastic gas tanks, it may be easier to have
a small hand pump. 5 gallons of gas is quite heavy, and most generator
fill caps are on top of the generator, hence you need to lift the gas
to that height.

d) Although back feeding your house can be done via a "Suicide power
cord". It is dangerours and is illegal. There is a risk to you and to
utility repair people. You can avoid having a transfer switch if you
are prepared to have long extension cords snaking around your house and
connect appliances directly to your generator.

I think the best solution for you will depend on who is in your
familly. If you have older / younger (children) people who cannot move
around portable units then a type 2 or type 3 is recomended. If you
have younger people around who understand and are prepared to move
about gasoline, and wheel abnout generators, then type 1 solution is a
good way to go.

Warmest regards, Mike.

Frank wrote:


Glad I got interested in this thread because it sent me out to crank
mine up to test it.
http://www.dol.net/~frank.logullo/generate.jpg
Took about 10 tries. It had probably been about 4 months since used in
an outage in the summer and that is too long to let sit. . . .

Frank

I recently bought a Honda EU2000i. After testing it, I put in some gas
mixed with STA-BIL and then let it operate until it ran out of gas.
About a month later, I added a little bit of mixed gas and tried to
start it. It took at least 10 tries to start it, maybe more, and I was
almost ready to give up.

I suppose the moral of the story is that generators that have been ran
out of gas can be hard to start and one shouldn't give up trying to
soon.

In article . com,
(thetiler) says...

We went without power for 15 days after Hurricane Charlie
tore our place apart. I ran a 10 hp coleman and could only
get 5 hours out of 5 gallons of gas, so we ran it 5 hours and
roughed it until the next evening. If you plan on getting gas
out of your vehicles, invest in a good quality siphon pump.
I bought a cheap $10 one and it leaked badly.

It's fairly easy to store more gas than that. I store about 20 gallons,
and once every month or so I pour 5 gallons into the pickup gas tank and
take the can into town to refill with fresh gas. The gas is stored in
the garden shed, away from the house.

I assume you wanted the generator running all the time to run the AC.
If you shut the generator down after an hour, you can easily go for 2-3
hours before the heat builds up inside the house. At my house, power
outages are a winter phenomenon, and the wood stove means electricity is
not necessary for heat or cooking. It takes about an hour to heat a
tank of water and take showers, and the refrigerator and freezer can run
at the same time. Aladdin lamps, oil lamps and candles provide plenty
of light, with the addition of a fluorescent light for reading and
flashlights for moving around. 12 volt TV sets are cheap and common, 12
volt radios are even less expensive.

For long term power, like running a computer or TV set, the little 1200
watt 2-cycle generators will run about 4.5 hours on a gallon of gas, and
they don't make as much noise as the big sets. 1200 watts is plenty to
run most furnaces with 1/8 hp blower motors. Some people buy a GM
alternator, hook it to a couple deep cycle batteries and an inverter,
power it up with an old 3.5 hp lawnmower motor, and have silent power
for low power applications late into the night.

The first mistake people make is buying huge generators. You don't have
to be the power company. The second mistake people make is trying to
run the generator continuously. Four hours of power a day should be
plenty, unless you have to run a furnace to keep from freezing to death.
If the weather is too hot for you, go sit in the bathtub and read a
book. Running AC off of a generator is not practical. It takes too
much power, which, as you discovered, translates to too much fuel.

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In article ,
(Husky) says...

It is too bad that no one has built a main panel with provisions built
in for this... It would be much easier to have redundant MAINS breakers,
interlocked, and then power the breaker busses from the mains or the
generator as required, than to put the mains breaker and the transfer
breaker in series, and switch from the transfer breaker to the generator
breaker in the transfer switch. Also, you would only need to flip one
breaker, move the interlock, and flip the other breaker, instead of
going down one side flipping one for each transfer circuit, move the
interlock, and back up the other side, flipping one each again. Then
repeat when mains power comes back on-line.

A whole house transfer switch only has one switch to isolate the house
circuit. Most people don't have large enough generators to run the
whole house, so some circuits have to be turned off to manage the load.

$300 will buy you a nice, fancy, automatic transfer switch designed to
work automatically with a standby power generator. I bought a 16-
circuit, 60 amp panel for $110 that will handle the largest generator I
am ever likely to have. I just need to flip one switch and turn off
some breakers to load manage, when it is hooked to my 4400 watt
generator.

I have a small tractor that would power a 16 kw PTO generator, which
works out to 67 amps at full output. From my experiences in power
outages, that amount of power would be unnecessary. My wife has
commented on how effortless it is to do without power in this house,
which has heat, water and light without electricity. We usually don't
even bother to hook the generator up until the second day of an outage.

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In article . com,
) says...

Most people I know around me went for type 2. I have a type 3
installation. I bought the generator from Costco, an older model
Cummins Onan RS2000 about a year ago. The cost of the generator was $US
9,000 including a 200 AMP automatic transfer switch. Total cost was $US
21,000. I also had a 400 gallon propane tank installed. My units burns
though about 3 gallons of propane per hour.

I bought a no-name B&S powered 4400 watt continuous/5000 watt surge
reconditioned generator from Harbor Freight in 1998 for $279. I got a
60 amp 16-circuit sub-panel style transfer switch from the same place
for $110, and paid an electrician $200 to wire it in, moving all the
critical circuits to the transfer panel. With the expense of buying a
few breakers, the total price came to about $650. It has run me through
3 extended outages, and the generator still fires off on the second
pull. I run it empty, change the oil, fog the cylinder, bag the
exhaust, wrap the whole thing in and industrial plastic bag with 5
pounds of silica gel, and stick it back in its shipping carton. It
still looks and runs like new after 8 years.

It is not necessary to spend a fortune to have emergency power.

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