I have lived in my house for 4 years now, however the house is 14 years
old, and haven't had any flooding problems until this week. There
has been several inches of rain dropped on our area the past 5 days.
Well of course our sump pump stopped working. I went into the
basement one day and found that it was starting to get wet. Within 1
hour I had 2 inches of water covering the floor. Then we realized the
sump pump was not working. When we called insurance they sent over an
engineer who looked around for 10 minutes and left. The next day I
got a call saying that our water came up from the cement and we
wouldn't be covered. They then told me that there wouldn't be that
much water from a sump pump not working. Could this be true??? It
really came so fast and there are not wet walls to indicate it came in
from the walls and now that the carpet is up there are no cracks in the
cement. Can it really come up throught the pores of the cement that
fast to cause that type of damage?? And does a not working sump pump
truly cause no damage??? They told me that the sump pump not working
wouldn't cause that type of damage. HELP!!!

"jcmilla" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have lived in my house for 4 years now, however the house is 14 years
old, and haven't had any flooding problems until this week. There
has been several inches of rain dropped on our area the past 5 days.
Well of course our sump pump stopped working. I went into the
basement one day and found that it was starting to get wet. Within 1
hour I had 2 inches of water covering the floor. Then we realized the
sump pump was not working. When we called insurance they sent over an
engineer who looked around for 10 minutes and left. The next day I
got a call saying that our water came up from the cement and we
wouldn't be covered. They then told me that there wouldn't be that
much water from a sump pump not working. Could this be true??? It
really came so fast and there are not wet walls to indicate it came in
from the walls and now that the carpet is up there are no cracks in the
cement. Can it really come up throught the pores of the cement that
fast to cause that type of damage?? And does a not working sump pump
truly cause no damage??? They told me that the sump pump not working
wouldn't cause that type of damage. HELP!!!

The sump pump removes water from beneath the floor. If it is isn't working,
and the water table is higher than the floor, water will pour in from
between the floor and walls. No significant water comes in through the
floor or the walls, just the space between them. Does that make sense?
Insurance normally doesn't cover stuff like that, but read through the
policy to be sure. Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

jcmilla wrote:
I have lived in my house for 4 years now, however the house is 14
years old, and haven't had any flooding problems until this week.
There has been several inches of rain dropped on our area the past 5
days. Well of course our sump pump stopped working. I went into the
basement one day and found that it was starting to get wet. Within 1
hour I had 2 inches of water covering the floor. Then we realized
the sump pump was not working. When we called insurance they sent
over an engineer who looked around for 10 minutes and left. The
next day I got a call saying that our water came up from the cement
and we wouldn't be covered. They then told me that there wouldn't
be that much water from a sump pump not working. Could this be
true??? It really came so fast and there are not wet walls to
indicate it came in from the walls and now that the carpet is up
there are no cracks in the cement. Can it really come up throught
the pores of the cement that fast to cause that type of damage??
And does a not working sump pump truly cause no damage??? They told
me that the sump pump not working wouldn't cause that type of damage.
HELP!!!

Tough question. You might want to see your local attorney. I would
guess that they may be trying to say it was due to flooding and not due to
sump pump failure. Read your policy carefully see if you can see if there
is anything in there that might give a hint.

Remember that your home owner's insurance does NOT cover flooding. That
is a different policy.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"jcmilla" wrote in message

There
has been several inches of rain dropped on our area the past 5 days.
Well of course our sump pump stopped working. I went into the
basement one day and found that it was starting to get wet. Within 1
hour I had 2 inches of water covering the floor. Then we realized the
sump pump was not working. When we called insurance they sent over an
engineer who looked around for 10 minutes and left. The next day I
got a call saying that our water came up from the cement and we
wouldn't be covered.

Sadly you and thousands of others will not be covered. Yes, it can come up
that fast between the cracks in the floor at the joints. I've heard of even
faster fill ups. I've heard stories of 50 year old houses that were dry put
to the recent rains last October and again this spring.

One lesson is to check your sump pump often. Once every couple of months,
dump some water into the sump hole and be sure it kicks on and pumps out.

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)

In article , mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

Mine will, anyway -- "Basement Watchdog" brand. It's not much larger than a
softball.

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)

Yep. All you need is a wye fitting to connect them together.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)


A battery powered back up will only help if you lose electricity... My
sump pump went bad and the basement flooded on the weekend while my
tenants were gone. If the pump is over ten year old it may not be a bad
idea to replace it. They don't last forever. I had new carpet that
was just put down 4 months earlier. Pulled it up let it dry and
replaced the padding and it was OK. Your best bet is to check the pump
often. Mine all I have to do is pull up on the rod and it will start
up. Now I never walk by it without testing it...

It amazes me how many sumps are physically higher than a area of their
yard.

in a pump or power failure a underground overflow line can save much
damage

"jcmilla" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have lived in my house for 4 years now, however the house is 14 years
old, and haven't had any flooding problems until this week. There
has been several inches of rain dropped on our area the past 5 days.
Well of course our sump pump stopped working. I went into the
basement one day and found that it was starting to get wet. Within 1
hour I had 2 inches of water covering the floor. Then we realized the
sump pump was not working. When we called insurance they sent over an
engineer who looked around for 10 minutes and left. The next day I
got a call saying that our water came up from the cement and we
wouldn't be covered. They then told me that there wouldn't be that
much water from a sump pump not working. Could this be true??? It
really came so fast and there are not wet walls to indicate it came in
from the walls and now that the carpet is up there are no cracks in the
cement. Can it really come up throught the pores of the cement that
fast to cause that type of damage?? And does a not working sump pump
truly cause no damage??? They told me that the sump pump not working
wouldn't cause that type of damage. HELP!!!

Check your policy--mine has a statement that covers basement water damage if
a sump pump fails. You are not covered if the problem is water table
flooding but you might be if your pump failed. Once the water table goes
above your floor it will leak into the basement at a relatively high rate.
MLD

" wrote in
message ups.com...
mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)


A battery powered back up will only help if you lose electricity... My
sump pump went bad and the basement flooded on the weekend while my
tenants were gone. If the pump is over ten year old it may not be a bad
idea to replace it. They don't last forever. I had new carpet that
was just put down 4 months earlier. Pulled it up let it dry and
replaced the padding and it was OK. Your best bet is to check the pump
often. Mine all I have to do is pull up on the rod and it will start
up. Now I never walk by it without testing it...

What are you talking about?
A battery backup will work just as well if your main pump breaks; in fact,
if the water comes in faster than the main pump can handle, the backup will
help out there also, though it is not a good idea to count on it...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It amazes me how many sumps are physically higher than a area of their
yard.

in a pump or power failure a underground overflow line can save much
damage

If the sump were higher than an area of the yard, the area would fill up
with water before the basement did.
I've never had any water in my sump because my backyard is lower than the
sump; but I've had water in the backyard.
I suppose there are clay soils where this might not work perfectly, but in
general...

On 29 Jun 2006 19:19:57 -0700, "
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)


A battery powered back up will only help if you lose electricity... My

Until the past 7 days, this seemed very unlikely. There are power
failures, but they've never coincided with the stream near me going to
flood stage. And if my sump pump didn't work, the stream wouldn't
have to be at flood stage for my basement to flood.

But this week it occurred to me that if the stream were getting really
high, even before it was high enough to enter my basement window, it
would also be close to the local transformer, which is on the ground,
and they might turn the power off intentionally. I'm pretty sure I
saw that on the news. Didn't they turn off the power to a big area
someplace in the NorthEast this week?

Or the water might reach the power transformer and that would turn off
my power, I think.


(A mile downstream, past where my little tributary joins the bigger
Gwynns Falls, 2 or 3 houses were destroyed by flooding during
Hurricane Agnes, and the county or city didn't let them rebuild. I
guess they condemned their land and paid them for it.) I was told
once that one house in my n'hood was destroyed by flooding also,
before it was finished, and that it wasn't rebuilt. But I'm not
convinced. Every house is attached to 7 others. It seems either they
lost 8 houses or they didn't lose any. I should have asked the guy
more questions when I had the chance.


sump pump went bad and the basement flooded on the weekend while my
tenants were gone. If the pump is over ten year old it may not be a bad
idea to replace it. They don't last forever. I had new carpet that
was just put down 4 months earlier. Pulled it up let it dry and
replaced the padding and it was OK. Your best bet is to check the pump
often. Mine all I have to do is pull up on the rod and it will start
up. Now I never walk by it without testing it...

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 01:58:46 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

Mine will, anyway -- "Basement Watchdog" brand. It's not much larger than a
softball.

This looks pretty good, and the middle level one is, well I'm not sure
what the price is or what includes the battery, but it seems under
400.

Is the middle level one, 1730 GPH, good enough? I only have a 700 sq
ft/floor townhouse.

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)

Yep. All you need is a wye fitting to connect them together.

I can do that.

On 29 Jun 2006 19:42:41 -0700, "
wrote:

It amazes me how many sumps are physically higher than a area of their
yard.

in a pump or power failure a underground overflow line can save much
damage

I'm confused.

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:45:23 GMT, "MLD" wrote:


"jcmilla" wrote in message
roups.com...
I have lived in my house for 4 years now, however the house is 14 years
old, and haven't had any flooding problems until this week. There
has been several inches of rain dropped on our area the past 5 days.
Well of course our sump pump stopped working. I went into the
basement one day and found that it was starting to get wet. Within 1
hour I had 2 inches of water covering the floor. Then we realized the
sump pump was not working. When we called insurance they sent over an
engineer who looked around for 10 minutes and left. The next day I
got a call saying that our water came up from the cement and we
wouldn't be covered. They then told me that there wouldn't be that
much water from a sump pump not working. Could this be true??? It
really came so fast and there are not wet walls to indicate it came in
from the walls and now that the carpet is up there are no cracks in the
cement. Can it really come up throught the pores of the cement that
fast to cause that type of damage?? And does a not working sump pump
truly cause no damage??? They told me that the sump pump not working
wouldn't cause that type of damage. HELP!!!

Check your policy--mine has a statement that covers basement water damage if
a sump pump fails. You are not covered if the problem is water table
flooding but you might be if your pump failed. Once the water table goes
above your floor it will leak into the basement at a relatively high rate.
MLD

Much higher than the rate it could seep through the floor or walls I
venture, and I'll bet there must be plenty of printed material saying
that. I watch while the water just pours into my sump, even in
moderate times, until the water in the sump is even with the water
table outside. If the water table outside were higher than the floor
and the sump pump were broken, the basement woudl flood, and I think
it would be the sump pump's fault. It's late and I'm groggy, so I
don't know the next step.

First thing I would do is carefully read your insurance policy to see
exactly what is covered and what isn't. For example, most homeowner's
policies will cover water damage from a broken or backed up pipe, but
will not cover damage from a flood. So see what exactly it says that
covers your situation.

I'd also start documenting everything. Most important, I would
document that the sump pump actually failed. If the insurance company
looked at the pump and gave you anything in writing, that acknowledges
it failed, that would be great. Or if you had a plumber replace it,
having in writing from him that it failed would be important. Take
pics of the situation and damage.

Also, if you live in a state where all it takes to legally record a
phone conversation is one party's consent, I'd start doing that with
any calls to the insurance company.

Of course, in the end, the real question will be how much $$$ the
actual damage amounts to. If it's not significant enough, it may not
be worth fighting.

mm wrote:

On 29 Jun 2006 19:42:41 -0700, "
wrote:

It amazes me how many sumps are physically higher than a area of their
yard.

in a pump or power failure a underground overflow line can save much
damage

I'm confused.

If there is an area where your cellar can drain to without the use of
a pump, it makes good sense to install a drain that goes 'to
daylight'. Very often the builder or homeowner has taken the easy
way out and just installed a sump that empties out a window.

One pump failure could easily cost you as much as it would cost to dig
that trench and do it right.

Jim

Your homeowners insurance policy is not a substitute for you properly
maintaining your house. You took the sump pump for granted and that's
what happens when you do that.

In article .com,
says...

Your homeowners insurance policy is not a substitute for you properly
maintaining your house. You took the sump pump for granted and that's
what happens when you do that.


Wait wait wait - just about every mishap at some point comes down to condition
before the mishap. Even location for floods. It doesn't cover *maintenance*,
but it covers mishaps.

Flood policies (if he has one) does cover runoff - which ends up in the house.
I've had a flood insurance claim regarding runoff that was too fast to be
handled by the sump pump I had at the time (of course that means I had obtained
it separately from the regular home insurance).

As to regular home insurance, it depends on what his policy says. Which depends
on all sorts of things. For example, I have a rider covering sump pump backup.
He may or may not have that as a rider, or may or may not have that even in his
regular policy.

Banty


--

On 30 Jun 2006 07:29:57 -0700, Banty wrote:



As to regular home insurance, it depends on what his policy says. Which depends
on all sorts of things. For example, I have a rider covering sump pump backup.

Does your rider exclude compensation for damage from that, or include
it? It could go either way, right?

He may or may not have that as a rider, or may or may not have that even in his
regular policy.

Banty

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:39:14 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

mm wrote:

On 29 Jun 2006 19:42:41 -0700, "
wrote:

It amazes me how many sumps are physically higher than a area of their
yard.

in a pump or power failure a underground overflow line can save much
damage

I'm confused.

If there is an area where your cellar can drain to without the use of
a pump, it makes good sense to install a drain that goes 'to
daylight'. Very often the builder or homeowner has taken the easy
way out and just installed a sump that empties out a window.

One pump failure could easily cost you as much as it would cost to dig
that trench and do it right.

So do you mean when the basement floor is higher than the ground
outside on at least one side of the house?

Otherwise, if you mean when the basement floor is lower than the dirt
but higher than the normal water table outside, one would have to have
a darn good check valve, to keep the water in the ground outside from
coming back into the house when it rains. Then the water table rises,
or even if the table doesn't rise, the trench or whatever would
collect dripping or descending water inside the earth.

I have a whole row or more of townhouse neighbors with basement
sliding glass doors leading right out to the back yard**. But for my
row, all the basements are entirely 6 feet below ground level.

**I'm not sure they have sump pumps. Maybe the building code doesn't
require it for them.

Jim

On 30 Jun 2006 01:40:14 -0700, wrote:


Of course, in the end, the real question will be how much $$$ the
actual damage amounts to. If it's not significant enough, it may not
be worth fighting.

That's true too. I've never had 2 inches like the OP, but when there
has been water, most of the damage was to the carboard cartons I keep
things in, that I get free at the grocery store or liquor store.

It's an enormous pain for me, but I don't know how much U could get
from an insurance company for that! It never occurred to me to make a
claim, but like I say, I didn't have 2 inches.

Another thing on my list to do is to glue or something a piece of wood
into the doorway between the room with sump and washing machine and
sink and the other room. It will look crummy and I'll have to explain
it to a buyer someday, but it's pretty simple and easy and it will
keep the water in one room. I don't need 2 inches, just a half inch.
What glue shouldl I use?

In article , mm says...

On 30 Jun 2006 07:29:57 -0700, Banty wrote:



As to regular home insurance, it depends on what his policy says. Which depends
on all sorts of things. For example, I have a rider covering sump pump backup.

Does your rider exclude compensation for damage from that, or include
it? It could go either way, right?

Includes. I had a claim based on that, actually.

Banty


--

In article , mm says...

On 30 Jun 2006 01:40:14 -0700, wrote:


Of course, in the end, the real question will be how much $$$ the
actual damage amounts to. If it's not significant enough, it may not
be worth fighting.

That's true too. I've never had 2 inches like the OP, but when there
has been water, most of the damage was to the carboard cartons I keep
things in, that I get free at the grocery store or liquor store.

It's an enormous pain for me, but I don't know how much U could get
from an insurance company for that! It never occurred to me to make a
claim, but like I say, I didn't have 2 inches.

Another thing on my list to do is to glue or something a piece of wood
into the doorway between the room with sump and washing machine and
sink and the other room. It will look crummy and I'll have to explain
it to a buyer someday,

No you won't have to explain it to a buyer. The buyer will read:

"NOTICE! THIS BASEMENT FLOODS!"

Better to fix the problem.

Banty


--

In article , mm says...

On 30 Jun 2006 01:40:14 -0700, wrote:


Of course, in the end, the real question will be how much $$$ the
actual damage amounts to. If it's not significant enough, it may not
be worth fighting.

That's true too. I've never had 2 inches like the OP, but when there
has been water, most of the damage was to the carboard cartons I keep
things in, that I get free at the grocery store or liquor store.

It's an enormous pain for me, but I don't know how much U could get
from an insurance company for that! It never occurred to me to make a
claim, but like I say, I didn't have 2 inches.

Another thing on my list to do is to glue or something a piece of wood
into the doorway between the room with sump and washing machine and
sink and the other room. It will look crummy and I'll have to explain
it to a buyer someday,

No you won't have to explain it to a buyer. The buyer will read:

"NOTICE! THIS BASEMENT FLOODS!"

Better to fix the problem.

Banty


--

mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:49:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Then get a battery powered back up for next time.

I would like to do that, but will both a battery powered pump and the
original electric pump fit in the same standard size hole at the same
time?

(I assume with a check valve in each pipe, they can share the same
output pipe.)

You can get a sump pump that runs from your water line, via the venturi
effect, no electricity required, as a backup. I found on looking around
the web, don't remember where but you can look.

mm wrote:


-snip-
So do you mean when the basement floor is higher than the ground
outside on at least one side of the house?

No. [though that would make life easy, wouldn't it?]

Otherwise, if you mean when the basement floor is lower than the dirt
but higher than the normal water table outside, one would have to have
a darn good check valve, to keep the water in the ground outside from
coming back into the house when it rains. Then the water table rises,
or even if the table doesn't rise, the trench or whatever would
collect dripping or descending water inside the earth.

No again. Your basement walls and floor should be sealed from water
infiltration. So they can be below the water table. That doesn't
always work, so drainage. I have an interior and an exterior
perimeter drain. They join outside, about 7-8 feet underground.
Then the drain travels about 40', with a 1/4" per foot pitch where it
meets the natural grade and sees 'daylight'.


I have a whole row or more of townhouse neighbors with basement
sliding glass doors leading right out to the back yard**. But for my
row, all the basements are entirely 6 feet below ground level.

But is any part of your property lower than your basement floor?
And if it is, how practical would it be to dig the trench and put in a
drain?

Jim

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:37:59 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

mm wrote:


-snip-
So do you mean when the basement floor is higher than the ground
outside on at least one side of the house?

No. [though that would make life easy, wouldn't it?]

I'm at my best when things are easy!

Otherwise, if you mean when the basement floor is lower than the dirt
but higher than the normal water table outside, one would have to have
a darn good check valve, to keep the water in the ground outside from
coming back into the house when it rains. Then the water table rises,
or even if the table doesn't rise, the trench or whatever would
collect dripping or descending water inside the earth.

No again. Your basement walls and floor should be sealed from water
infiltration. So they can be below the water table. That doesn't
always work, so drainage. I have an interior and an exterior
perimeter drain. They join outside, about 7-8 feet underground.
Then the drain travels about 40', with a 1/4" per foot pitch where it
meets the natural grade and sees 'daylight'.

OK, I get it. Very good idea.

I have a whole row or more of townhouse neighbors with basement
sliding glass doors leading right out to the back yard**. But for my
row, all the basements are entirely 6 feet below ground level.

But is any part of your property lower than your basement floor?

No. However about 3 feet outside my property line the ground falls
off about 6 feet. I'll have to go look when it is light out.

And if it is, how practical would it be to dig the trench and put in a
drain?

I guess not too practical now, because I would have to go six feet
down, 8 feet to the bottom of the sump, ecause my basement floor is 6
feet below the ground and the ground only drops off a foot or so to my
property line.

I'm at the end of 8 townhouses and have had some flooding and have
major flooding threats. I have an outside perimeter of 4 inch
corrugate perforated black plastic pipe in the front and another piece
in the rear and the side. I have these two pipes coming into the
sump.

No inner perimeter, but haven't needed one. (I could use more slope
to the sump, and I did drill holes in the plastic sump lip, so that
any amount of water might flow into the sump. With the lip, which
runs around the whole sump, the water had to be more than 3/8" deep.

I wasn't here when they built these. People who had bought their
house before completion could get them to make some changes, but this
would have had to have been done before the foundation was even
backfilled. Few people own that early, unless they are building it
themselves.

What you might find interetsing is that the sump pump goes up 10 feet
to the ceiling of the basement, out the wall, and then empties into a
piece of 4 inch, corrugated NON-perforated black pipe which goes just
where you would have the other drain go, under the yard, under the
fence, and 3 feet past the property line where it empties to the
stream bed** from the side of that hill.

**This part is dry except during flood stage, 2 to 4 days a year. In
theory flood stage could permeate the earth around my house and cause
the drain outside the house to overload the sump pump. Almost-this
happened once, but the stream wasn't high. It was the rain that soaked
the ground that poured into the pipe that overloaded the sump pump, so
that some water got on the basement floor from the sump. Hard to know
how much because the cartons and the ends of rolls of scraps of carpet
soak up the water, and if it makes it to the next room, the carpet in
use soakes it up too.


One thing I learned from this thread: I describe above how the pipe
through the wall empties into the black corrugated pipe. I see now
that one reason for that is that if it were one pipe with no air
break, when the pump stopped, it would siphon back a lot of the water
that I had just pumped out. One more thing they did right.

Jim

On 30 Jun 2006 10:50:33 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , mm says...

On 30 Jun 2006 01:40:14 -0700, wrote:


Of course, in the end, the real question will be how much $$$ the
actual damage amounts to. If it's not significant enough, it may not
be worth fighting.

That's true too. I've never had 2 inches like the OP, but when there
has been water, most of the damage was to the carboard cartons I keep
things in, that I get free at the grocery store or liquor store.

It's an enormous pain for me, but I don't know how much U could get
from an insurance company for that! It never occurred to me to make a
claim, but like I say, I didn't have 2 inches.

Another thing on my list to do is to glue or something a piece of wood
into the doorway between the room with sump and washing machine and
sink and the other room. It will look crummy and I'll have to explain
it to a buyer someday,

No you won't have to explain it to a buyer.

grin.

The buyer will read:

"NOTICE! THIS BASEMENT FLOODS!"

OK. Good to know.

Better to fix the problem.

There have been about 10 problems. Each different. Some can't be
solved. Plus the new mistakes I will make.

Most serious, 1) heavy rains cause the stream to rise, overflows sewer
manhole covers, fills sewer, backs up through laundry sink into the
four lowest houses out of 109. I asked the county to put in
waterproof manhole covers. He said it wouldn't help but he would do 2
of them if I wanted. It didn't help. Maybe I should have had them do
it further upstream, instead of by my house and one just downstream.
But they probably won't do this for me a second time. This caused
floods twice plus the special occasions below, after my partial
solution.

Strangely, even though there seemed to be some sewage in the sewer
water, it didn't have any smell at that time or later. And I didn't
get sick. The drainage area and sewer go another 2 or 3 miles to the
west and probably serves an area a half mile wide. Mostly detached
houses. A few apartments and a few townhouses. 500 to 1000 homes? Of
course it is tremednously diluted by stream water when the stream
overflows the manholes. Maybe 1000 to 1. Maybe some, maybe all of
what I see is stream life, or just dirt from the flooding stream.
Maybe it dries into dust.

2) Cold water hose to washing machine burst. Got two steel clad water
hoses. That caused water hammer when using the washing machine so I
got two small air capsules, already set up for attaching. That solved
that problem.

3) Polyethylene hose to humidifier burst. Water sprayed into file
cabinet, mostly wetting open drawer with tourist brochures (I have a
more important file cabinet upstairs). Non-glossy ones dried out.
Glossy ones stuck together. I've still got lots of places to go, and
only 30 more years to get there. I can replace what tourist stuff I
need. Replaced hose with copper tubing.

4) Hot water hose to kitchen sink burst, because I temporairly used
auto vacuuum hose, and temp lasted months. Won't make that mistake
again. Put 52 gallons of hot water and who knows how much cold water
through floor where it rained down on laundry room, in many places.
Wooden tool "dresser" swelled and open drawer wouldnt't shut. But
after 2 months it shut ok. Many things rusty, but wire wheel will
clean most of them.

5) Because of the flooding in item 1, I also keep the basement/laundry
sink plugged all the time, with a 1x2 jammed in above the rubber plug
and below the shelf. Shelf wasn't screwed to the shelf bracket. Lifted
the shelf with all the heavy things on it. One more flood. Screwed
the shelf to the bracket.

I also put in a check valve, but I lifted up the plug once a teeny
tiny bit and water started to come up. The check valve wasn't good
anymore. I try to catch all the lint from the washing machine, but
the machine itself doesn't have a lint filter. It claims to have a
spinning knife or something that chops up the lint, but it doesn't
work well enough for me.

6) Sink plugged up. Once in 21 years, I did my laundry without
unplugging it. I knew that would happen once. If I get Oldtimers
Disease, it may happen again.

7) As I said in another post, heavy rains overwhelmed the sump pump.
Water came out of the sump. I may for 400 dollars get that small
battery operated backup sump pump, which also works when there is
power if the first pump is overwhelmed.

8) Early on, AC condensate would not go out tube to sump, but instead
ran down inside furnace and flooded floor, less than most floods but
ongoing. I cut a hole in the plenum? and looked inside, saw no clogs.
I thought maybe insects in the drain pipe, so I cut the plastic pipe
and used a hose to run water through it. Water came out as fast as it
went in. And problem remained. Pipe came out of AC down an inch, 2
feet hoizontal over to the wall, down 4 feet, along the base of the
wall 8 feet, away froom the wall 3 feet to the sump, and one inch
down. When I had the water heater out, I had room to work, so I
redid the plastic drain pipe a little, so that it came out of the
plenum (is that the word), down 15 inches, and then over to the wall,
and then to the floor etc. That solved the problem. There are 108
other houses here. I keep forgetting, but I want to see the other
houses. I'm sure some or all are like mine was. I wonder if they
have problems. Problem solved, unless insects do clog the pipe.

9 Water heater starts to leak. Would have noticed this and found the
problem in time, but floor was already wet because of 8 above. That
little water should have evaporated in 12 hours, but I didn't realize
there was a second leak and a few days later, the whole water heater
emptied on the floor, 50 gallons. Much went into the sump and was
pumped out, but much idn't. I put in new water heater, along with a
pan underneath with a pipe that goes to the sump. Not sure if the
edge of the pan is really high enough but that's what they sell.

10) I've never yet been able to list them all without thinking of one
more later that I've already had......... Well, there are more that I
haven't had. Pipes that break, valves that leak, such as the drain
hole in the valve that controls the outside faucet. Or toilet or
bathtub or sink overflows. (I never had a toilet or sink overflow but
had one bathtub overflow in 23 years, but water didn't make it to the
basement, so that piece of wood on the floor between the two basement
rooms wouldn't help. I dont' count the bathtub anyhow, because that
was entirely my fault. It wasn't some*thing* that "went wrong".)

10a) Other possible problem, basement sink is plugged with
plug-and-stick, and will come off the wall when the water pressure
from overflowing sewer is pushing up on the plug-stick and forcing the
sink down. I'm planning on building a frame underneath the sink.

10c) I'm pretty sure I left one out that has already happened. Each
one is so different that I can't use one to remind me of the others.

Despite all the problems the stream gives, I love my stream and the 20
feet of woods on this side, and the 40 or 50 foot strip of woods on
the other side. The stream turns 90 degrees right at my house. I
never thought there even existed a house in my price range with such a
beautiful piece of land around it. It's normally about 10 inches deep
and 5 feet across. It can rise in 10 hours to 8 feet deep and 20 to 40
feet across, and can run so fast the noise wakes me up. (Someday I
have to enlist a friend and measure the speed.)

It's risen 3 inches below the height of my land (very little land ;-)
). It's risen to 3 inches from my property line, and 30 inches from my
fence. (But the house is another 3 or 4 inches higher and the
basement window is 3 bricks above the ground. Plus one guy told me
that it was designed if it gets as high as my yard, it will have to
fill another wide area on the other side of the stream, plus the road
beyond and some of what's beyond that. (I see what he is talking
about, but I have to get my next door neighbor to measure how high the
road is compared to our houses. Can't do this when there are leaves
on the trees.)

Banty

In article , mm says...

On 30 Jun 2006 10:50:33 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , mm says...

On 30 Jun 2006 01:40:14 -0700, wrote:


Of course, in the end, the real question will be how much $$$ the
actual damage amounts to. If it's not significant enough, it may not
be worth fighting.

That's true too. I've never had 2 inches like the OP, but when there
has been water, most of the damage was to the carboard cartons I keep
things in, that I get free at the grocery store or liquor store.

It's an enormous pain for me, but I don't know how much U could get
from an insurance company for that! It never occurred to me to make a
claim, but like I say, I didn't have 2 inches.

Another thing on my list to do is to glue or something a piece of wood
into the doorway between the room with sump and washing machine and
sink and the other room. It will look crummy and I'll have to explain
it to a buyer someday,

No you won't have to explain it to a buyer.

grin.

The buyer will read:

"NOTICE! THIS BASEMENT FLOODS!"

OK. Good to know.

Better to fix the problem.

There have been about 10 problems. Each different. Some can't be
solved. Plus the new mistakes I will make.

Most serious, 1) heavy rains cause the stream to rise, overflows sewer
manhole covers, fills sewer, backs up through laundry sink into the
four lowest houses out of 109. I asked the county to put in
waterproof manhole covers. He said it wouldn't help but he would do 2
of them if I wanted. It didn't help. Maybe I should have had them do
it further upstream, instead of by my house and one just downstream.
But they probably won't do this for me a second time. This caused
floods twice plus the special occasions below, after my partial
solution.

Water proof manhole covers wouldn't work. Water force is tremendous.

This is your worse problem I agree, because it's out of your control to solve,
unless you can get your munincipality to reroute the sewage. For this reason
alone maybe you'll have to resort to measures like placing things on pads and
the solution you mentioned. Is there really no recourse for this? Do you have
a homeowner's or condo association to press on this? What do your neighbors
think?


2) Cold water hose to washing machine burst. Got two steel clad water
hoses. That caused water hammer when using the washing machine so I
got two small air capsules, already set up for attaching. That solved
that problem.

OK.


3) Polyethylene hose to humidifier burst. Water sprayed into file
cabinet, mostly wetting open drawer with tourist brochures (I have a
more important file cabinet upstairs). Non-glossy ones dried out.
Glossy ones stuck together. I've still got lots of places to go, and
only 30 more years to get there. I can replace what tourist stuff I
need. Replaced hose with copper tubing.

Maybe you need to see if you can catch these situations before they happen.
Inspections, proactive upgrades.


4) Hot water hose to kitchen sink burst, because I temporairly used
auto vacuuum hose, and temp lasted months. Won't make that mistake
again. Put 52 gallons of hot water and who knows how much cold water
through floor where it rained down on laundry room, in many places.
Wooden tool "dresser" swelled and open drawer wouldnt't shut. But
after 2 months it shut ok. Many things rusty, but wire wheel will
clean most of them.

You do seem to learn kinda slow about these hose connections....


5) Because of the flooding in item 1, I also keep the basement/laundry
sink plugged all the time, with a 1x2 jammed in above the rubber plug
and below the shelf. Shelf wasn't screwed to the shelf bracket. Lifted
the shelf with all the heavy things on it. One more flood. Screwed
the shelf to the bracket.

I also put in a check valve, but I lifted up the plug once a teeny
tiny bit and water started to come up. The check valve wasn't good
anymore. I try to catch all the lint from the washing machine, but
the machine itself doesn't have a lint filter. It claims to have a
spinning knife or something that chops up the lint, but it doesn't
work well enough for me.

6) Sink plugged up. Once in 21 years, I did my laundry without
unplugging it. I knew that would happen once. If I get Oldtimers
Disease, it may happen again.

7) As I said in another post, heavy rains overwhelmed the sump pump.
Water came out of the sump. I may for 400 dollars get that small
battery operated backup sump pump, which also works when there is
power if the first pump is overwhelmed.

Bigger sump pump. BTDT.


8) Early on, AC condensate would not go out tube to sump, but instead
ran down inside furnace and flooded floor, less than most floods but
ongoing. I cut a hole in the plenum? and looked inside, saw no clogs.
I thought maybe insects in the drain pipe, so I cut the plastic pipe
and used a hose to run water through it. Water came out as fast as it
went in. And problem remained. Pipe came out of AC down an inch, 2
feet hoizontal over to the wall, down 4 feet, along the base of the
wall 8 feet, away froom the wall 3 feet to the sump, and one inch
down. When I had the water heater out, I had room to work, so I
redid the plastic drain pipe a little, so that it came out of the
plenum (is that the word), down 15 inches, and then over to the wall,
and then to the floor etc. That solved the problem. There are 108
other houses here. I keep forgetting, but I want to see the other
houses. I'm sure some or all are like mine was. I wonder if they
have problems. Problem solved, unless insects do clog the pipe.

You and tubes don't get along


9 Water heater starts to leak. Would have noticed this and found the
problem in time, but floor was already wet because of 8 above. That
little water should have evaporated in 12 hours, but I didn't realize
there was a second leak and a few days later, the whole water heater
emptied on the floor, 50 gallons. Much went into the sump and was
pumped out, but much idn't. I put in new water heater, along with a
pan underneath with a pipe that goes to the sump. Not sure if the
edge of the pan is really high enough but that's what they sell.


When I solved a water problem, I found my washing machine to be leaking. They
call this kind of way problems present themselves as others are solved "peeling
the onion".

10) I've never yet been able to list them all without thinking of one
more later that I've already had......... Well, there are more that I
haven't had. Pipes that break, valves that leak, such as the drain
hole in the valve that controls the outside faucet. Or toilet or
bathtub or sink overflows. (I never had a toilet or sink overflow but
had one bathtub overflow in 23 years, but water didn't make it to the
basement, so that piece of wood on the floor between the two basement
rooms wouldn't help. I dont' count the bathtub anyhow, because that
was entirely my fault. It wasn't some*thing* that "went wrong".)

Can you get a new inspection and see if an expert can point these things out?
Seems there's a lot of age-related (house age things going wrong.


10a) Other possible problem, basement sink is plugged with
plug-and-stick, and will come off the wall when the water pressure
from overflowing sewer is pushing up on the plug-stick and forcing the
sink down. I'm planning on building a frame underneath the sink.

10c) I'm pretty sure I left one out that has already happened. Each
one is so different that I can't use one to remind me of the others.

Despite all the problems the stream gives, I love my stream and the 20
feet of woods on this side, and the 40 or 50 foot strip of woods on
the other side. The stream turns 90 degrees right at my house. I
never thought there even existed a house in my price range with such a
beautiful piece of land around it. It's normally about 10 inches deep
and 5 feet across. It can rise in 10 hours to 8 feet deep and 20 to 40
feet across, and can run so fast the noise wakes me up. (Someday I
have to enlist a friend and measure the speed.)

I can see how it's in a lower price range

Banty


--

On 1 Jul 2006 06:32:10 -0700, Banty wrote:

I asked the county to put in
waterproof manhole covers. He said it wouldn't help but he would do 2
of them if I wanted. It didn't help. Maybe I should have had them do
it further upstream, instead of by my house and one just downstream.
But they probably won't do this for me a second time. This caused
floods twice plus the special occasions below, after my partial
solution.

Water proof manhole covers wouldn't work. Water force is tremendous.

But in this case, it's not water inside the sewer lifting up the
manhole cover. It's water above it, and no more than a foot higher
than it, getting into the sewer. In addition, I've never seen covers
dislodged after a flood. Admittedly, I only look at the one near me,

Does it all go in through those little one inch holes?

Maybe there is a missing cove a mile upstream I could get them to
replace. I'm not sure where the sewer ends, but I can probably tell
by looking for the next manhole. But the stream itself 3 miles away,
is only 9 inches wide and 3 inches deep. It's like a toy stream.

I've walked about a mile of the stream in the stream. I think this
summer I'll do the whole thing. Discussing this with you has made me
conclude there might be a missing manhole. OTOH, there are a lot of
kids around, I think they would be diligent about replacing any that
had been missing for years. So how does all that water get into the
sewer?

This is your worse problem I agree, because it's out of your control to solve,
unless you can get your munincipality to reroute the sewage. For this reason

That's impossible, because they route it next to the stream. Just
like railroads are routed next to rivers. Because it's a guaranteed
gradual slope, and in a hilly place like most of Maryland (almost
everything west of the Chesapeake Bay), it's the only gradual slope.

alone maybe you'll have to resort to measures like placing things on pads and
the solution you mentioned. Is there really no recourse for this? Do you have
a homeowner's or condo association to press on this? What do your neighbors
think?

Only 4 out of the 109 of us are affected. And two of those four are a
little higher than me and my next door neighbor. My next door
neighbor's situation is funny. A previous owner didn't want the sump
pump pumping outside, next to the front door. Everyone else's pump
goes out of the house and right into an undergroud pipe that comes out
the side of the curb, in front of their house, and water goes into the
parking lot (which has a drain into the stream, just downstream from
me.) He and I and about 4 other houses elsewhere don't really front
on the parking lot. My sump pump drain pipe goes under my side yard
to the stream "valley". But his had nowhere to go, so it just spurted
out. I think there is one of one of those things that are at the
bottom of downspouts, but the sump pump pipe doesn't point to it.
They could put in a second but there is a bush there now.

So the previous owner rerouted the sump pump so it goes to the
basement sink. I pointed out to a previous owner, and now my current
neighbor that if the water is backing up through the sink, the sump
pump won't be able to work. You can't drain into a sink that is
backing up. But I don't think he has redone that. I don't think it
has even sunk in yet.

The president of the HOA is dictator for life. We've had a big fight
already, and I stay clear of her.


3) Polyethylene hose to humidifier burst.
Maybe you need to see if you can catch these situations before they happen.
Inspections, proactive upgrades.

It never occurred to me that the included kit, with polyethylene hose,
wasn't good enough. This might have been about 6 years after I got
the house and 5 1/2 after I installed the humidifier. I tried hard
and didn't put in any sharp bends, but it sprang a leak anyhow. A
couple years after this leak, I was at a party in the basement of a
friend, and her polyethylene hose to her ice maker in the fridge above
started leaking and dripping into her laundry room. Good that she was
home and in the basement, and good that we were there to move her
fridge. Expensive fridge, installed by dealer. (I replaced mine with
copper, but they tell me that that can crack too. I was careful to
make no sharp bends and as few bends as possible.)

4) Hot water hose to kitchen sink burst, because I temporairly used
auto vacuuum hose, and temp lasted months. Won't make that mistake
again. Put 52 gallons of hot water

You do seem to learn kinda slow about these hose connections....

I got 1540 on my SATs, an IQ once measured at 140, got into a good
college, and I may be smart, but I am definitely slow. A guy** in
college said something about ethics once, and it took me 24 years to
think of a comeback. **An unethical guy, promoting unethics. When I
wanted to be a lawyer, I wanted to be a trial lawyer, because it
seemed exciting or like fun. That's the one branch of law I now know
I couldn't possibly do, because I am *slow*. I know a mistake in
logic immediately, but I often don't know what to say in return.

7) As I said in another post, heavy rains overwhelmed the sump pump.
Water came out of the sump. I may [get that battery one...]

Bigger sump pump. BTDT.

This only happened once in 23 years, last year. I guess I could get a
bigger sump pump for a lot less than 400, but we do have a lot of
power failures, and one may well bump into a high water table day.

8) Early on, AC condensate would not go out tube to sump, but instead
ran down inside furnace and flooded floor,

You and tubes don't get along

That's a good way of putting it. Do you mind if I use that line for
my humor line on my tombstone?


9 Water heater starts to leak. Would have noticed this and found the
problem in time, but floor was already wet because of 8 above.

When I solved a water problem, I found my washing machine to be leaking. They
call this kind of way problems present themselves as others are solved "peeling
the onion".

Uh huh.

10) .....Well, there are more that I
haven't had. Pipes that break, valves that leak, such as the drain
hole in the valve that controls the outside faucet.

Can you get a new inspection and see if an expert can point these things out?
Seems there's a lot of age-related (house age things going wrong.

I'll think about it, or at least I'll go room by room, pipe by pipe,
and look more closely myself. I appreciate the reminder.



Despite all the problems the stream gives, I love my stream and the 20
feet of woods on this side, and the 40 or 50 foot strip of woods on
the other side. The stream turns 90 degrees right at my house. I
never thought there even existed a house in my price range with such a
beautiful piece of land around it. It's normally about 10 inches deep
and 5 feet across. It can rise in 10 hours to 8 feet deep and 20 to 40
feet across, and can run so fast the noise wakes me up. (Someday I
have to enlist a friend and measure the speed.)

I can see how it's in a lower price range

I misread this the first two times. I thought you were saying, I can
see how [I was surprised to get it] IF it's in a lower price range.

When I bought it 23 years ago, in Baltimore where housing was cheap
and probably still is, it was 62,000 dollars. Now my neighbors'
houses are selling for 207,000. Z think 70L of that was in the last 5
years or whenever the bubble started bubbling. Other n'hoods have
gone up in price more.

Of course some people who work in Battimore, especially the north
suburbs, live just over the border in Penn. because it's cheaper yet
there. Just bedroom developments for Baltimore, in places where there
were only farms and a couple tiny towns before.

Banty

Flooding can DEFINETELY disloge or even toss those heavy cast iron
manhole covers a LONG WAY. I have seen it happen!

Also have seen a jet of water several feet in the air coming from a
missing manhole.

All the water upstream moves down a too small pipe and looks for a way
out

Think about it, water turns turbines to generate electricity, tossing a
manhole cover is a minor event

I used to have problems with the sewer line in my house (until I found
someone who did an excellent job of cleaning out the roots- the other
various jokers didn't). Plus another time I had a little laundry
accident (I moved the washer drain hose and forgot to put it back into
the sink). I have several water alarms placed around the basement.

I became a rabid water alarm advocate and mailed one to my parents.
No special reason; I just thought everyone should have one The day
it arrived, they opened the package, my dad put it in the sump in the
cellar then went out someplace. It started to rain almost
immediately. The alarm went off. My mother couldn't get ahold of my
father. By the time he got home she was verrrry upset. Poor Dad.
Anyway, aside from the sump pump not working it turned out there was
some sort of valve in the sewer that prevents water from backing up
that needed replacement. Likely water had been coming in every time
it rained but they never knew it because they don't go down in the
cellar often. Now, thanks to me, they knew. For some reason, the
story of a water alarm going off within an hour of installing it and
my mother freaking out amuses me.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

On 1 Jul 2006 14:15:06 -0700, "
wrote:

Flooding can DEFINETELY disloge or even toss those heavy cast iron
manhole covers a LONG WAY. I have seen it happen!

I'll have to look upstream. I've already don't about a quarter mile
upstream and a half mile downstream, for reasons other than my
basement. No missing covers iirc. I'll have to go further upstream.

Also have seen a jet of water several feet in the air coming from a
missing manhole.

But it's the stream filling the manhole. I guess it could fill it
upstream and then want to get out downstream, but basically...

All the water upstream moves down a too small pipe and looks for a way
out

My basement sink is the way out.

Think about it, water turns turbines to generate electricity, tossing a
manhole cover is a minor event

Thanks a lot.