First the question. I have an oil burner in the attic. Its relatively
new, couple months old. It recently started to lose prime. It has about
a 20 ft vertical lift and a horizontal draw of about 50 ft. The 5th
HVAC person to work on the system (hence the saga) says they can fix it
by replacing the 3/8" single line with two 1/2" lines and a two stage
(B) pump. Is this reasonable?

To start, I learned as much as I could about HVAC from the net, books,
this news group and the HVAC news group. I thought I was prepared to
fined a good HVAC contractor to install what I wanted. The only
requirements were, metal runs, oil as one of the sources, and two
zones. This was a new installation in a new house.

I secured three estimates and only one payed any attention to my
requirements, and this person came highly recomended from my neighbor,
a commercial HVAC person. (This had been his primary work but had
transitioned to other work at this time.) He proposed 2 heat pumps to
work at 40+ degrees with oil kicking in below 40 degrees. Sounded
reasonable. Also suggested a oil hot water tank which I agreed to. He
started before Thanksgiving last year and by Feb 2005 was not half done
and none of the burners working, with temps in the single digits. He
would show up once in 3 weeks. I was about to start drywall and I had
a huge amount of 3/4 pine paneling delivered that required a stable
heated environement. He told me to find someone else.

Now I was in a bind. So I tied again to find a HVAC contractor. Most
would not return my calls or were booked months in advance. I finally
found some who said they could get one of the burners up and running in
3 days. 5 days later I almost fired him for not having it running like
he had promised. 6th day he finally had one running. To shorten the
story, he got everything up and running by warm weather. We're not
confident of his work and would not use him again.

Summer we moved in to the new house and the air worked fine. Cold
weather showed the flaws in the new system. The hot water line was teed
off the main oil burner in the basement. It started to loose prime.
After the first time the tech that came out to trouble shoot it showed
me how to prime it which I had to do several times. Also the heat pumps
would run 5-10 minutes and then the oil would kick in no matter what
the outside temps were.

So I was talking to a friend and they thought highly of their HVAC
contractors. ( I did call the orginal guy 3 times with no response). So
I called them and they came out and after a day and half they ripped
out the fossil fuel kits the previous person put in and run a new line
to the hot water. The bill was a shock. They explained this was because
we were not their customers and the call was considered an emergency!!
was not happy. I guess I should have known. The next day the burner in
the attic lossed prime. We called them out again and they primed it.
They said it would need a two stage pump.

It continued to loose prime and I primed it myself. But Christmas eve
it failed again. Monday I called Agway and they came out twice and told
me there was no solution. Oil would not work and they would not install
propane because we did not get our oil and propane from them. (I had
tried to get a hold of the folks who did supply us but they were not in
on that Monday.)

Wednesday I was able to get the folks who supply us and they said it
should work with the two line method. So thats where we are now.

The first thing to do, is make sure you only have flare fittings on the oil
lines, and that all the flares are good. For the attic, try a 'positive shut
off' (not the steel ball type) check valve in the supply line. Then go with
a two stage fuel pump. If that doesn't work, then run a 3/8" line back to
the tank and install a by-pass plug inside the fuel pump to switch it to a
two-pipe system. I don't think you need to switch to 1/2" lines. If your
tank is in the basement, and the oil lines are off the top, they may be too
close together at the bottom of the tank, causing turbulence.

I stopped reading after the attic problem, maybe you could edit out all the
non-essential stuff.





wrote in message
oups.com...
First the question. I have an oil burner in the attic. Its relatively
new, couple months old. It recently started to lose prime. It has about
a 20 ft vertical lift and a horizontal draw of about 50 ft. The 5th
HVAC person to work on the system (hence the saga) says they can fix it
by replacing the 3/8" single line with two 1/2" lines and a two stage
(B) pump. Is this reasonable?

To start, I learned as much as I could about HVAC from the net, books,
this news group and the HVAC news group. I thought I was prepared to
fined a good HVAC contractor to install what I wanted. The only
requirements were, metal runs, oil as one of the sources, and two
zones. This was a new installation in a new house.

I secured three estimates and only one payed any attention to my
requirements, and this person came highly recomended from my neighbor,
a commercial HVAC person. (This had been his primary work but had
transitioned to other work at this time.) He proposed 2 heat pumps to
work at 40+ degrees with oil kicking in below 40 degrees. Sounded
reasonable. Also suggested a oil hot water tank which I agreed to. He
started before Thanksgiving last year and by Feb 2005 was not half done
and none of the burners working, with temps in the single digits. He
would show up once in 3 weeks. I was about to start drywall and I had
a huge amount of 3/4 pine paneling delivered that required a stable
heated environement. He told me to find someone else.

Now I was in a bind. So I tied again to find a HVAC contractor. Most
would not return my calls or were booked months in advance. I finally
found some who said they could get one of the burners up and running in
3 days. 5 days later I almost fired him for not having it running like
he had promised. 6th day he finally had one running. To shorten the
story, he got everything up and running by warm weather. We're not
confident of his work and would not use him again.

Summer we moved in to the new house and the air worked fine. Cold
weather showed the flaws in the new system. The hot water line was teed
off the main oil burner in the basement. It started to loose prime.
After the first time the tech that came out to trouble shoot it showed
me how to prime it which I had to do several times. Also the heat pumps
would run 5-10 minutes and then the oil would kick in no matter what
the outside temps were.

So I was talking to a friend and they thought highly of their HVAC
contractors. ( I did call the orginal guy 3 times with no response). So
I called them and they came out and after a day and half they ripped
out the fossil fuel kits the previous person put in and run a new line
to the hot water. The bill was a shock. They explained this was because
we were not their customers and the call was considered an emergency!!
was not happy. I guess I should have known. The next day the burner in
the attic lossed prime. We called them out again and they primed it.
They said it would need a two stage pump.

It continued to loose prime and I primed it myself. But Christmas eve
it failed again. Monday I called Agway and they came out twice and told
me there was no solution. Oil would not work and they would not install
propane because we did not get our oil and propane from them. (I had
tried to get a hold of the folks who did supply us but they were not in
on that Monday.)

Wednesday I was able to get the folks who supply us and they said it
should work with the two line method. So thats where we are now.

wrote:
First the question. I have an oil burner in the attic. Its relatively
new, couple months old. It recently started to lose prime. It has about
a 20 ft vertical lift and a horizontal draw of about 50 ft. The 5th
HVAC person to work on the system (hence the saga) says they can fix it
by replacing the 3/8" single line with two 1/2" lines and a two stage
(B) pump. Is this reasonable?

SNIP other problems
Yes. A 20 ft lift install should never have been done with
a single-stage/one pipe pump.

Install a check valve at the base of the suction line to help
combat loss of prime.

Jim

I am no expert; they will jump in, soon.

First answer: Yes. A two stage (B-pump) in a lift feed piping system
is logically called for. A lift feed piping system, is one where the
oil tank reservoir is located at a level below the oil burner pak, as
opposed to a gravity feed.

The info available at
http://www.suntecpumps.com/PDFs/Inst...tion%20III.pdf
will make good reading. However, 18 feet for a two stage is specified
as the maximum vertical rise. It would take some studying for sure.

See also
http://www.suntecpumps.com/PDFs/Form...stallation.pdf
forTABLE B: TWO-PIPE MAXIMUM LINE LENGHT.
The 1/2 inch piping is called for your requirements of the oil burner
solution.

The above two links are offered for your reading reference in case you
have not yet gone there.

Good luck.


On 31 Dec 2005 06:34:07 -0800, wrote:

First the question. I have an oil burner in the attic. Its relatively
new, couple months old. It recently started to lose prime. It has about
a 20 ft vertical lift and a horizontal draw of about 50 ft. The 5th
HVAC person to work on the system (hence the saga) says they can fix it
by replacing the 3/8" single line with two 1/2" lines and a two stage
(B) pump. Is this reasonable?

I wouldn't put a reservoir in a residential attic, especially if it only
feeds one heater. They are meant for shops/factories, where they feed
several heaters at the same time. Although they are usually safe, why take
the chance of putting a tank in the attic? A two-stage fuel pump installed
directly on the burner will most likely solve the problem.


"Vince" wrote in message
...

I am no expert; they will jump in, soon.

First answer: Yes. A two stage (B-pump) in a lift feed piping system
is logically called for. A lift feed piping system, is one where the
oil tank reservoir is located at a level below the oil burner pak, as
opposed to a gravity feed.

The info available at

http://www.suntecpumps.com/PDFs/Inst...tion%20III.pdf
will make good reading. However, 18 feet for a two stage is specified
as the maximum vertical rise. It would take some studying for sure.

See also

http://www.suntecpumps.com/PDFs/Form...stallation.pdf
forTABLE B: TWO-PIPE MAXIMUM LINE LENGHT.
The 1/2 inch piping is called for your requirements of the oil burner
solution.

The above two links are offered for your reading reference in case you
have not yet gone there.

Good luck.


On 31 Dec 2005 06:34:07 -0800, wrote:

First the question. I have an oil burner in the attic. Its relatively
new, couple months old. It recently started to lose prime. It has about
a 20 ft vertical lift and a horizontal draw of about 50 ft. The 5th
HVAC person to work on the system (hence the saga) says they can fix it
by replacing the 3/8" single line with two 1/2" lines and a two stage
(B) pump. Is this reasonable?

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I wouldn't put a reservoir in a residential attic, especially if it only
feeds one heater. They are meant for shops/factories, where they feed
several heaters at the same time. Although they are usually safe, why take
the chance of putting a tank in the attic? A two-stage fuel pump installed
directly on the burner will most likely solve the problem.

I agree that a day tank is not needed. One other thing I WOULD do is put a
safety pan under the unit. At LEAST one under the burner.....



"Vince" wrote in message
...

I am no expert; they will jump in, soon.

First answer: Yes. A two stage (B-pump) in a lift feed piping system
is logically called for. A lift feed piping system, is one where the
oil tank reservoir is located at a level below the oil burner pak, as
opposed to a gravity feed.

The info available at

http://www.suntecpumps.com/PDFs/Inst...tion%20III.pdf
will make good reading. However, 18 feet for a two stage is specified
as the maximum vertical rise. It would take some studying for sure.

See also

http://www.suntecpumps.com/PDFs/Form...stallation.pdf
forTABLE B: TWO-PIPE MAXIMUM LINE LENGHT.
The 1/2 inch piping is called for your requirements of the oil burner
solution.

The above two links are offered for your reading reference in case you
have not yet gone there.

Good luck.


On 31 Dec 2005 06:34:07 -0800, wrote:

First the question. I have an oil burner in the attic. Its relatively
new, couple months old. It recently started to lose prime. It has about
a 20 ft vertical lift and a horizontal draw of about 50 ft. The 5th
HVAC person to work on the system (hence the saga) says they can fix it
by replacing the 3/8" single line with two 1/2" lines and a two stage
(B) pump. Is this reasonable?

"Bubba " ReMoVe wrote


Stop using your oil supply guy to do your oil service. They supply
oil, not service.

Now now.......

;-]

Wrong on several accounts. The one thing I learned was price was NOT a
qualifier. In fact the guy we picked was far from the cheapest. The
reason he was picked and kept was he came highly recommend from some
one we trusted to know. We fired him the when he did show up once in 3
weeks. Also he just lost his girl of many years, and was a friend of
our neighbor, and he was the only one to install with metal runs.

Of all the service personal that have come out only one said oil was
not appropriate.

There is ample head room and space, but alas no steps. The original
installer used a lift to get it up. And light is not a problem. There
is a complete floor and pan under the unit.

we have paid out nearly twice the orginal spec. And at this point we
are condsidering, turning it off for several years, and when finances
get better replace it with a propane unit.

So far the folks who supply the fuel are the only answer. And what
about the first 4 contractors who screwed ever thing up...they did not
supply the fuel...what criteria do you use to tell one from the
other....a secret hand shake maybe. I would say at this point most of
the contractors in the HVAC biz are hacks.

"So far the folks who supply the fuel are the only answer. And what
about the first 4 contractors who screwed ever thing up...they did not
supply the fuel...what criteria do you use to tell one from the
other....a secret hand shake maybe. I would say at this point most of
the contractors in the HVAC biz are hacks. "

I have been in the HVAC business since 1975, and I agree, 95 % of the
contractors, even many of the supposedly good ones, are hacks.

I was just on a call yesterday where the customer has had a balance
problem all 10 years since the house was built. Trane was the original
system, had other problems as well. Trane washed their hands of the
repeat failure problems, even though it had an extended warranty. The
other contractor (well known with good reputation). said a new lennox
heat pump would solve all problems, including balance. Power company
did the load. Installed 5-ton, same as the old one. The contractor
never even looked at the ducts in the attic. Changed indoor & outdoor
units and thermostat. Repeat failures stopped but air balance stayed
the same.

I went in the attic, duct trunk feeding the hard to balance parts of
house had a gap in it I could put my hand into! there were other duct
leaks as well. He didn't check air flow with a hood till the customer
complained loudly and repeatedly about the new $6,300.00 new system.
The house has two supply ducts going to the garage with no return path
and one going to a swimming pool bathroom with no return path! This
company is not the original installer but has serviced it since it was
out of warranty! The duct problems and balance problems should have
been addressed and fixed long ago! Customer is not cheap. Contractor
is incompetent!

Stretch

wrote in message
oups.com...
Wrong on several accounts. The one thing I learned was price was NOT a
qualifier. In fact the guy we picked was far from the cheapest. The
reason he was picked and kept was he came highly recommend from some
one we trusted to know. We fired him the when he did show up once in 3
weeks. Also he just lost his girl of many years, and was a friend of
our neighbor, and he was the only one to install with metal runs.


Of all the service personal that have come out only one said oil was
not appropriate.

And in this case, sure sounds like it., huh?


There is ample head room and space, but alas no steps. The original
installer used a lift to get it up. And light is not a problem. There
is a complete floor and pan under the unit.


No one in his right mind installs a oil burner in an attic.
Period.
Sure, it can be done..


we have paid out nearly twice the orginal spec. And at this point we
are condsidering, turning it off for several years, and when finances
get better replace it with a propane unit.

In all seriousness, sucks not to get it done right the first time.


So far the folks who supply the fuel are the only answer. And what
about the first 4 contractors who screwed ever thing up...they did not
supply the fuel...what criteria do you use to tell one from the
other....a secret hand shake maybe. I would say at this point most of
the contractors in the HVAC biz are hacks.


And most homeowners are whiny bitches, but hey, you get a few good ones..LOL
Seriously, there is no magic way to get a good contractor. Good contractors
wont advertise much, they have more work than they can handle. They wont
have a huge ad in the yellow pages screaming look at me, and Look how much
we pay out a month to get your attention.
The best ones, you probably wont ever hear of.

Im curious...what part of the country are you in, and how much did you pay
for your already obsolete system?

Hell, better yet, you can name names too....who was the fool that started
you on this journey that seems to have no end?

In my section of the country, you can't use a 90+ gas furnace in an attic,
and oil is a lot cheaper than an 80+ propane furnace. I've seen lots of oil
furnaces work fine in an attic. His problem is not the decision to use oil,
but the quality of the installation and service. I certainly wouldn't want
to service it. There's no way I'd want to climb up and down through a little
trap door every time I needed something. Install a pull down ladder, and see
the quality of service go way up.
All of the problems he describes can be solved by a tech with experience on
oil. It's not hard to find a good company. If they return your calls in a
timely manner, that's a real good start. If the technician can explain
things to you in layman's terms that you understand, then it's a good bet he
also understands what the problem is. If he's thorough in both his checks
and explanations, then he probably wants a satisfied customer.

A homeowner should be able to explain the problem well, but any homeowner
who starts to tell a technician what to do, or who professes a little
knowledge of how to repair something is looking for trouble. Any homeowner
who is a whiny bitch should be politely told to call a competitor.



"CBHVAC" wrote in message
...


wrote in message
oups.com...
Wrong on several accounts. The one thing I learned was price was NOT a
qualifier. In fact the guy we picked was far from the cheapest. The
reason he was picked and kept was he came highly recommend from some
one we trusted to know. We fired him the when he did show up once in 3
weeks. Also he just lost his girl of many years, and was a friend of
our neighbor, and he was the only one to install with metal runs.


Of all the service personal that have come out only one said oil was
not appropriate.

And in this case, sure sounds like it., huh?


There is ample head room and space, but alas no steps. The original
installer used a lift to get it up. And light is not a problem. There
is a complete floor and pan under the unit.


No one in his right mind installs a oil burner in an attic.
Period.
Sure, it can be done..


we have paid out nearly twice the orginal spec. And at this point we
are condsidering, turning it off for several years, and when finances
get better replace it with a propane unit.

In all seriousness, sucks not to get it done right the first time.


So far the folks who supply the fuel are the only answer. And what
about the first 4 contractors who screwed ever thing up...they did not
supply the fuel...what criteria do you use to tell one from the
other....a secret hand shake maybe. I would say at this point most of
the contractors in the HVAC biz are hacks.


And most homeowners are whiny bitches, but hey, you get a few good
ones..LOL
Seriously, there is no magic way to get a good contractor. Good
contractors
wont advertise much, they have more work than they can handle. They wont
have a huge ad in the yellow pages screaming look at me, and Look how much
we pay out a month to get your attention.
The best ones, you probably wont ever hear of.

Im curious...what part of the country are you in, and how much did you pay
for your already obsolete system?

Hell, better yet, you can name names too....who was the fool that started
you on this journey that seems to have no end?

We live near Gettysburg Pa. The first installer, Wes Bishop, is out of
MD but travels the US in a tractor trailer installing commercial dust
systems. He had installed HVAC systems for many years but dust
systems pay better.

Key Services out of Pa did most of the installation and had it major
screwed up.

The rest are minor players.

The orginal spec was 14K. We are currenly up over 22K and next week the
new guys will cost over 1K. If it works I will gladly pay it.

If I have to go to propane (natural gas not option) what would be a
ballpark figure for replacing the oil burner?

I wish one and all a happy new year and may all your installations be
good ones! :-)

I think you were wrong in selling him a service contract. Assholes like that
will be calling every other day about something.


"Al Moran" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 08:05:25 -0500, "Bob" wrote:

Any homeowner
who is a whiny bitch should be politely told to call a competitor.

I had to tell one of those whiny homeowners that yesterday. Went on a
no heat on a 20 yo heat pump about four days ago. Run cap to the
compressor was bad. Tell ho that due to the age of the equipment I
would recommend replacing the system. He says no, go ahead and replace
run cap. I do, and tell him that although I don't have a crystal ball,
something will break again, maybe sooner, maybe later. I offer him a 1
year maintenance contract which entitles him to 20% off any repairs.
He declines. Yesterday I get a no heat call at the same place. This
time the blower motor has died. Tell him again i recommend replacing
the system but I'll do whatever he wants. he asks about price of new
system and price of blower motor. I tell him and he starts whining
about the money he spent for the run cap and the money he has just
decided to spend for a new blower motor. This goes on for about five
minutes and then I have to explain "overhead" to him. he starts
whining again and I tell him that he should get some more estimates
for the blower motor if he is not happy with the price. This shuts the
idiot up. He buys new blower mototr and 1 year service plan. So now
said genius has spent 99.00 for a run cap, 59.00 twice for service
calls, 477.00 for a blower motor and 183.00 for a service contract.
All of this for a 20 yo system. What a good investment! Not!

IMO, you don't need to convert to gas. In Gettysburg, you can't use a 90+
gas furnace, because the condensation in the unit will freeze in the winter.
Do yourself a BIG favor and install a pull down ladder to your attic. The
service technician will not be as ****ed off when working on your unit. Try
climbing up and down through a trap door with tools, drop light, meters,
etc. Do this several times, and you'll get the idea.
Before he gets there, take a look at your oil line for compression fittings.
If you have them, they are probably a big part of the problem. A compression
fitting connects brass to brass to brass. A flare fitting connects brass to
copper to brass. The copper is soft, and creates a tighter fit. A good oil
technician should have no problem with you asking him to change them. Also
look for Teflon tape on the oil line fittings. Fittings with Teflon tape
will suck air. If you already have properly installed, tight flare fittings,
then a two stage fuel pump and a positive shut-off check valve should solve
your problem. I'm not so sure you need a return line back to the tank. You
may want to wait on that, unless it's real easy to install.

wrote in message
oups.com...
We live near Gettysburg Pa. The first installer, Wes Bishop, is out of
MD but travels the US in a tractor trailer installing commercial dust
systems. He had installed HVAC systems for many years but dust
systems pay better.

Key Services out of Pa did most of the installation and had it major
screwed up.

The rest are minor players.

The orginal spec was 14K. We are currenly up over 22K and next week the
new guys will cost over 1K. If it works I will gladly pay it.

If I have to go to propane (natural gas not option) what would be a
ballpark figure for replacing the oil burner?

I wish one and all a happy new year and may all your installations be
good ones! :-)

Thanks Bob (and everyone that has added their thoughts). I think I'll
go with the 2 lines unless the general thought is it wouldn't work. I
would rather have it done once. Installing though not real easy is
certainly doable.....maybe annoying. But the folks doing it know whats
ahead of them.

Bad inducer motor, 5 year old Goodman gas forced air furnace. HVAC
tech says there's no point in fixing it. Just replace the whole unit.
It's too old.

Well, sure, 5 years is about the best you should hope for with one of
those, but, I was selling the house in six months. Good investment?
Not in this case. Does that make me a whiny homeowner?

Five hundred bucks for a blower motor? Lucky the dude didn't know the
local electic motor shop could sell him one for $90 and it takes 10
minutes to install.


-rev

"The Reverend Natural Light" wrote in message
oups.com...
Bad inducer motor, 5 year old Goodman gas forced air furnace. HVAC
tech says there's no point in fixing it. Just replace the whole unit.
It's too old.

Well, sure, 5 years is about the best you should hope for with one of
those, but, I was selling the house in six months. Good investment?
Not in this case. Does that make me a whiny homeowner?

Five hundred bucks for a blower motor? Lucky the dude didn't know the
local electic motor shop could sell him one for $90 and it takes 10
minutes to install.


You paid $90 for a Goodman inducer motor?
Damn man....they saw you coming.

-rev

I said $90 for the blower motor, but coincidentally that's also what I
paid for the Goodman inducer motor. That's what us home-moaners pay
when we need parts. You could probably pick one up at the local supply
house for $35 and sell it to me for $190, +$150 labor, +$85 service
charge. And it's cold outside so I'd pay it.


-rev

I had to tell one of those whiny homeowners that yesterday. Went on a
no heat on a 20 yo heat pump about four days ago. Run cap to the
compressor was bad. Tell ho that due to the age of the equipment I
would recommend replacing the system. He says no, go ahead and replace
run cap. I do, and tell him that although I don't have a crystal ball,
something will break again, maybe sooner, maybe later. I offer him a 1
year maintenance contract which entitles him to 20% off any repairs.
He declines. Yesterday I get a no heat call at the same place. This
time the blower motor has died. Tell him again i recommend replacing
the system but I'll do whatever he wants. he asks about price of new
system and price of blower motor. I tell him and he starts whining
about the money he spent for the run cap and the money he has just
decided to spend for a new blower motor. This goes on for about five
minutes and then I have to explain "overhead" to him. he starts
whining again and I tell him that he should get some more estimates
for the blower motor if he is not happy with the price. This shuts the
idiot up. He buys new blower mototr and 1 year service plan. So now
said genius has spent 99.00 for a run cap, 59.00 twice for service
calls, 477.00 for a blower motor and 183.00 for a service contract.
All of this for a 20 yo system. What a good investment! Not!

$477.00 for a blower motor plus $59.00 for the service call! No wonder
your customers moan. You must have a hell of an overhead! I just
installed a 1/3 HP blower motor for an old lady in her attic air
handler. It cost her just under $250.00 labor and materials. No
service agreement discount. I made a healthy profit, including
doubling my cost of the motor. I like to make a profit, it keeps me in
business. This is why I watch my costs, so I can keep my prices
reasonable and still buy the tools and training I need to provide good
service to my customers.

Stretch

"The Reverend Natural Light" wrote in message
oups.com...
I said $90 for the blower motor, but coincidentally that's also what I
paid for the Goodman inducer motor. That's what us home-moaners pay
when we need parts. You could probably pick one up at the local supply
house for $35 and sell it to me for $190, +$150 labor, +$85 service
charge. And it's cold outside so I'd pay it.


-rev


Actually, NO, thats NOT what I would do...but some would.

The Reverend Natural Light wrote:
I said $90 for the blower motor, but coincidentally that's also what I
paid for the Goodman inducer motor. That's what us home-moaners pay
when we need parts. You could probably pick one up at the local supply
house for $35 and sell it to me for $190, +$150 labor, +$85 service
charge. And it's cold outside so I'd pay it.


-rev

I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its
seal in the unit and so it wouldn't fire. They
found that the unit was fine and resealed it (new
gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I
asked how much it have cost (them, not me) if they
had to replace it and the repairman replied that
the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also
checked on the Internet and some are not cheap,
but not $350.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
The Reverend Natural Light wrote:
I said $90 for the blower motor, but coincidentally that's also what I
paid for the Goodman inducer motor. That's what us home-moaners pay
when we need parts. You could probably pick one up at the local supply
house for $35 and sell it to me for $190, +$150 labor, +$85 service
charge. And it's cold outside so I'd pay it.


-rev

I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its seal in the unit and so
it wouldn't fire. They found that the unit was fine and resealed it (new
gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I asked how much it have
cost (them, not me) if they had to replace it and the repairman replied
that the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also checked on the Internet
and some are not cheap, but not $350.

Ummm...Goodman Inducer motor....about $20 without housing and wheel.
Now..Carrier..they have a couple that you have to replace the board with,
and just the boards over $70

Al Moran wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:28:32 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:



I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its
seal in the unit and so it wouldn't fire. They
found that the unit was fine and resealed it (new
gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I
asked how much it have cost (them, not me) if they
had to replace it and the repairman replied that
the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also
checked on the Internet and some are not cheap,
but not $350.


Did that cheaper price include fuel for the truck, the techs wage, the
lights at the shop... You ****ing homeowners think we should just give
**** away, truly amazing.

You are an idiot, a poor business man, and a thief
if you sell service or product at many times the
cost. Every business has costs, you sound like the
hospital that gave explained the huge costs for
analysis with a new medical machine because the
capital cost of the machine needed to be
recovered, indicating a recovery in about 10
years. Turned out that the capital cost plus all
of the maintenance costs were recovered in the
first year of operation.

Your fellow HVAC guy said the cost was only 20 or
maybe $90 with a board. Charging $350 for such an
item would be simple theft.

Doesn't matter what "you" (meaning me) homeowner
think, you won't need to worry 'cause I'll fix or
replace the part myself at a reasonable cost. If
not, I'll simply replace the whole damn thing
which will be probably be cheaper than having you
replace a little itty bitty part. That won't
affect you much tho, because most people couldn't
find the furnace let alone change a fan. 'Course
that's how lots of repair shops went broke.
Shops charged $70 to replace a $10 part in 1O
minutes and the whole thing only costs $90. Bye,
bye repair shop.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Al Moran wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:28:32 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:



I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its seal in the unit and
so it wouldn't fire. They found that the unit was fine and resealed it
(new gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I asked how much it
have cost (them, not me) if they had to replace it and the repairman
replied that the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also checked on the
Internet and some are not cheap, but not $350.


Did that cheaper price include fuel for the truck, the techs wage, the
lights at the shop... You ****ing homeowners think we should just give
**** away, truly amazing.

You are an idiot, a poor business man, and a thief if you sell service or
product at many times the cost. Every business has costs, you sound like
the hospital that gave explained the huge costs for analysis with a new
medical machine because the capital cost of the machine needed to be
recovered, indicating a recovery in about 10 years. Turned out that the
capital cost plus all of the maintenance costs were recovered in the first
year of operation.

Your fellow HVAC guy said the cost was only 20 or maybe $90 with a board.
Charging $350 for such an item would be simple theft.

Doesn't matter what "you" (meaning me) homeowner think, you won't need to
worry 'cause I'll fix or replace the part myself at a reasonable cost.
If not, I'll simply replace the whole damn thing which will be probably be
cheaper than having you replace a little itty bitty part. That won't
affect you much tho, because most people couldn't find the furnace let
alone change a fan. 'Course that's how lots of repair shops went broke.
Shops charged $70 to replace a $10 part in 1O minutes and the whole thing
only costs $90. Bye, bye repair shop.

If I had something that costs $90 I would NOT call someone out to repair in
the first place.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Al Moran wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:28:32 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:



I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its seal in the unit and
so it wouldn't fire. They found that the unit was fine and resealed it
(new gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I asked how much it
have cost (them, not me) if they had to replace it and the repairman
replied that the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also checked on the
Internet and some are not cheap, but not $350.


Did that cheaper price include fuel for the truck, the techs wage, the
lights at the shop... You ****ing homeowners think we should just give
**** away, truly amazing.

You are an idiot, a poor business man, and a thief if you sell service or
product at many times the cost. Every business has costs, you sound like
the hospital that gave explained the huge costs for analysis with a new
medical machine because the capital cost of the machine needed to be
recovered, indicating a recovery in about 10 years. Turned out that the
capital cost plus all of the maintenance costs were recovered in the first
year of operation.

Your fellow HVAC guy said the cost was only 20 or maybe $90 with a board.
Charging $350 for such an item would be simple theft.


Actually, it happens all the time, and its called free market.

Ever buy a new car?

Ever seen what that new car REALLY cost?

Give ya a hint....$30,000 Dodge Ram Pickup...made in Mexico...no leather, no
dually..just a basic 2500 series...what you think it cost start to finish to
delevery to make?
hint is, drop a figure...now you are down to 4 figures....but hey..you paid
the extra 21 grand for it.


Doesn't matter what "you" (meaning me) homeowner think, you won't need to
worry 'cause I'll fix or replace the part myself at a reasonable cost.
If not, I'll simply replace the whole damn thing which will be probably be
cheaper than having you replace a little itty bitty part. That won't
affect you much tho, because most people couldn't find the furnace let
alone change a fan. 'Course that's how lots of repair shops went broke.
Shops charged $70 to replace a $10 part in 1O minutes and the whole thing
only costs $90. Bye, bye repair shop.

CBHVAC wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...

Al Moran wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:28:32 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:




I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its seal in the unit and
so it wouldn't fire. They found that the unit was fine and resealed it
(new gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I asked how much it
have cost (them, not me) if they had to replace it and the repairman
replied that the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also checked on the
Internet and some are not cheap, but not $350.


Did that cheaper price include fuel for the truck, the techs wage, the
lights at the shop... You ****ing homeowners think we should just give
**** away, truly amazing.

You are an idiot, a poor business man, and a thief if you sell service or
product at many times the cost. Every business has costs, you sound like
the hospital that gave explained the huge costs for analysis with a new
medical machine because the capital cost of the machine needed to be
recovered, indicating a recovery in about 10 years. Turned out that the
capital cost plus all of the maintenance costs were recovered in the first
year of operation.

Your fellow HVAC guy said the cost was only 20 or maybe $90 with a board.
Charging $350 for such an item would be simple theft.



Actually, it happens all the time, and its called free market.

Ever buy a new car?

Ever seen what that new car REALLY cost?

Give ya a hint....$30,000 Dodge Ram Pickup...made in Mexico...no leather, no
dually..just a basic 2500 series...what you think it cost start to finish to
delevery to make?
hint is, drop a figure...now you are down to 4 figures....but hey..you paid
the extra 21 grand for it.


Doesn't matter what "you" (meaning me) homeowner think, you won't need to
worry 'cause I'll fix or replace the part myself at a reasonable cost.
If not, I'll simply replace the whole damn thing which will be probably be
cheaper than having you replace a little itty bitty part. That won't
affect you much tho, because most people couldn't find the furnace let
alone change a fan. 'Course that's how lots of repair shops went broke.
Shops charged $70 to replace a $10 part in 1O minutes and the whole thing
only costs $90. Bye, bye repair shop.



And if this car is so cheap to build in our free
market, how come there are no equivalent cars
built and sold for a lot less than that $30,000.
In fact, how come the U.S. automakers don't just
lower the price so much that they blow out the
foreign car market?

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
CBHVAC wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...

Al Moran wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:28:32 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:




I think he pulled your chain. My inducer lost its seal in the unit and
so it wouldn't fire. They found that the unit was fine and resealed it
(new gasket) under the warranty. Out of curiosity, I asked how much it
have cost (them, not me) if they had to replace it and the repairman
replied that the inducer was $350. Ridiculous, but I also checked on
the Internet and some are not cheap, but not $350.


Did that cheaper price include fuel for the truck, the techs wage, the
lights at the shop... You ****ing homeowners think we should just give
**** away, truly amazing.

You are an idiot, a poor business man, and a thief if you sell service or
product at many times the cost. Every business has costs, you sound like
the hospital that gave explained the huge costs for analysis with a new
medical machine because the capital cost of the machine needed to be
recovered, indicating a recovery in about 10 years. Turned out that the
capital cost plus all of the maintenance costs were recovered in the
first year of operation.

Your fellow HVAC guy said the cost was only 20 or maybe $90 with a board.
Charging $350 for such an item would be simple theft.



Actually, it happens all the time, and its called free market.

Ever buy a new car?

Ever seen what that new car REALLY cost?

Give ya a hint....$30,000 Dodge Ram Pickup...made in Mexico...no leather,
no dually..just a basic 2500 series...what you think it cost start to
finish to delevery to make?
hint is, drop a figure...now you are down to 4 figures....but hey..you
paid the extra 21 grand for it.


Doesn't matter what "you" (meaning me) homeowner think, you won't need to
worry 'cause I'll fix or replace the part myself at a reasonable cost. If
not, I'll simply replace the whole damn thing which will be probably be
cheaper than having you replace a little itty bitty part. That won't
affect you much tho, because most people couldn't find the furnace let
alone change a fan. 'Course that's how lots of repair shops went broke.
Shops charged $70 to replace a $10 part in 1O minutes and the whole thing
only costs $90. Bye, bye repair shop.



And if this car is so cheap to build in our free market, how come there
are no equivalent cars built and sold for a lot less than that $30,000. In
fact, how come the U.S. automakers don't just lower the price so much that
they blow out the foreign car market?

Hummm...interesting question. Ahh...but there are.
See....we bought a new 2500 03 B-Van...extended, and the sticker was $27,000
and some change.
Total off the lot cash price? Under 16,500.
Ok..so it helps the old man owns a dealership, and it helps I got it at
whats called Green Sheet....but ya know, if you ask ANY tech that does PDI
inspections on the Mexican made trucks, (the van wasnt) they can tell you
that SOMETIMES, the shipping invoice is shoved under the seats, or left in a
glovebox, and they are to destroy it right off.
Thats NOT what it cost the dealer, mind you, thats what it cost the company
to build.

Hey,....if that was the case, I should be able to lower my prices on
say.....2.5 ton, 12SEER (yes..i have tons left) Affinity units to under
$2700 installed with an air handler.....wow....
(sarcasm here)
I did...and i got called a hack, a fool, and have the competition calling me
every name in the book...

Ask yourself this.....

If Mercedes say...suddenly started to offer a $10,000 500 series....would
you buy it?
I wouldnt.