For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
Edition (no password needed),
Use this ed2k link:

ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
|17460132|BE9758679E82FED70ED86AEF407245D6|h=UMDAH FKUTTRRKS25H2NPD5PDTTQ
YBGLB|/|sources,65.27.28.213:4662|/

(If word wraping introduced carriage returns at the end of the lines,
fix them.)

If you don't know how to use the link:
http://www.emule-project.net/home/perl/general.cgi?l=1

Doesn't seem to work for me.

Explain where you are having the problem. Here's the link again:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf|17460132|BE9758679E82FED70ED86AEF4 07245D6|h=UMDAHFKUTTRRKS25H2NPD5PDTTQYBGLB|/

Pat wrote:
Doesn't seem to work for me.



It's another file sharing system like napster was.

NFPA has been pretty protective of their copyrights,
wouldn't expect the link to last long ;-)

At least IEEE has become more generous with standards they
maintain. I guess the insurance companies need the income ;-)

-larry / dallas

Nehmo wrote:
For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
Edition (no password needed),
Use this ed2k link:

ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
|17460132|BE9758679E82FED70ED86AEF407245D6|h=UMDAH FKUTTRRKS25H2NPD5PDTTQ
YBGLB|/|sources,65.27.28.213:4662|/

(If word wraping introduced carriage returns at the end of the lines,
fix them.)

If you don't know how to use the link:
http://www.emule-project.net/home/perl/general.cgi?l=1

And this is theft pure and simple. You are stealing a copyrighted work.

Matt

If you have the .pdf format of NEC book could you please post it to
http://www.yousendit.com
If the .pdf file is too big you might have to spilt them before
posting. I have this site on NEC which gives a very good insight about
NEC.
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.ph...alnecfreestuff

oyemadi

- Matt -
And this is theft pure and simple. You are stealing a copyrighted
work.

- Nehmo -
An ed2k link is just an MD4 file hash, a short, almost unique,
description of the file, and it's difficult to make different file that
will produce the same hash. Thus, if you find a file that produces the
hash of a file you want, then the found file is very likely to be the
one you want.
http://www.emule-project.net/home/pe...c&topic_id=422
If you have properly-configured eMule as a client, you can click on an
ed2k link (or place the link in a certain window), and the client will
begin downloading parts of the file from various sources.
It is not illegal to post such a file description, an MD4 hash, nor even
have a site with numerous such descriptions.

It's not theft, it's not simple, and the so-called copyright is highly
debatable. It isn't even honored in a major federal jurisdiction, the
Fifth Circuit http://www.uscourts.gov/courtlinks/ .
I'll quote one Fifth Circuit line:
http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm
"that when a copyrighted standard or code is referenced into law
(particularly if it thereby becomes "the law"), the developer cannot
enforce its copyright against a free distribution of the standard. "

The implication is, because of the Supreme Court's certiorari denied,
that a similar cases for free access would succeed in the other
circuits.

Anyway, we already discussed this. Do you have some new material to add,
or do you just want to complain again?

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
: For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code
Tenth
: Edition (no password needed),
: Use this ed2k link:
:
:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
....
....
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL: It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific
computer, NOT an internet web site address. Why do I think the
OP knows/knew that?

: If you don't know how to use the link:
: http://www.emule-project.net/home/perl/general.cgi?l=1

Because this is nothing but a shameless effort to get people to
use emule; all it leads to is essentially an index page for part
of the emule site.

What they really want you to do is download emule, and then use
IT to get what isn't really going to be available by that time,
surprise surprise.
Google shows this identical email and variants of it spread
all over the newsgroups - a pretty serious and pre-meditated
spamming/scamming effort.

I'm surprised so many people would think it could be done and
actually tried the hash, which was purported to be a URL. Doing
something like that would be the last thing they did before being
tanked.
Bait & switch comes to mind, following scam, spam and a couple
other words.

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
"that when a copyrighted standard or code is referenced into law
(particularly if it thereby becomes "the law"), the developer cannot
enforce its copyright against a free distribution of the standard. "

The NEC is a voluntary standard. It is NOT law! Some jurisdictions adopt it,
others don't.
Show where the NEC has been challenged in court and found to be public
domain.

Ben Miller


--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
www.bmillerengineering.com

"Ben Miller" wrote in message
...
"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
"that when a copyrighted standard or code is referenced into law
(particularly if it thereby becomes "the law"), the developer cannot
enforce its copyright against a free distribution of the standard. "

The NEC is a voluntary standard. It is NOT law! Some jurisdictions adopt
it,
others don't.
Show where the NEC has been challenged in court and found to be public
domain.

Ben Miller

Can you show us were the NEC has prevailed in a code/copyright dispute?

"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...
Can you show us were the NEC has prevailed in a code/copyright dispute?

You got it backwards. NFPA is entitled to the copyright by law, unless it is
successfully challenged.

See http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what

Here are some excerpts:

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed
in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of
a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment
the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to
bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright
Basics, section "Copyright Registration."



--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
www.bmillerengineering.com

ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
|17460132|BE9758679E82FED70ED86AEF407245D6|h=UMDAH FKUTTRRKS25H2NPD5PDTTQ
YBGLB|/

- Pop -
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL:

- Nehmo -
Nobody said it was a URL. I described it as a ed2k link, which is what
it is.

- Pop -
It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific
computer, NOT an internet web site address.

- Nehmo -
You don’t realize how ridiculous you sound, Pop. Research the subject a
bit, and read my previous posts in this thread.

- Pop -
Why do I think the
OP knows/knew that?

: If you don't know how to use the link:
: http://www.emule-project.net/home/perl/general.cgi?l=1

Because this is nothing but a shameless effort to get people to
use emule; all it leads to is essentially an index page for part
of the emule site.

- Nehmo -
Now, that, the one that begins with http *is* a URL. It’s clearly the
eMule project site, which is very well known.

- Pop -
What they really want you to do is download emule, and then use
IT to get what isn't really going to be available by that time,
surprise surprise.
Google shows this identical email and variants of it spread
all over the newsgroups - a pretty serious and pre-meditated
spamming/scamming effort.

- Nehmo -
Please post the search you are talking about.

- Pop -
I'm surprised so many people would think it could be done and
actually tried the hash, which was purported to be a URL. Doing
something like that would be the last thing they did before being
tanked.
Bait & switch comes to mind, following scam, spam and a couple
other words.

- Nehmo -
The file is a simple .pdf . If you’re worried about downloading pdf’s ,
You are welcome to not do it. Moreover, the file can’t be switched
because then it would have a different hash. That’s how P2P works
nowadays.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"Ben Miller" wrote in message
...
"Chas Hurst" wrote in message
...
Can you show us were the NEC has prevailed in a code/copyright dispute?

You got it backwards. NFPA is entitled to the copyright by law, unless it
is
successfully challenged.

See http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what

Here are some excerpts:

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed
in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid
of
a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the
moment
the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to
bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright
Basics, section "Copyright Registration."

Yeah, but has the NEC brought suit? And Prevailed?
Laws, in general, don't mean **** until it goes to court.

I pasted it into my browser and got
The page cannot be displayed

Ed2k links don't work that way. You have to have eMule or some similar
app; there's a few. You can get eMule from
http://www.emule-project.net/home/pe...=1&rm=download
The setup is complicated, but accepting the defaults (notice where the
files will go) will work fine. Read the FAQ pages; post questions to
one of the P2P forums, or post to news:alt.internet.p2p
web version:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.internet.p2p?lnk=oa
Once you have eMule, either
Tools Paste eD2K links then paste the link in the box Download
button
or just click on the link (but that might not work for you)

Torrents, and multiple newsgroup postings with split rar files are
faster than ed2k links, but I this method is more widely understood.
Besides, a valid ed2k link is pretty much permanent.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- Ben Miller
You got it backwards. NFPA is entitled to the copyright by law, unless
it is
successfully challenged.

- Nehmo -
In any case, if you want a free copy of the Handbook, you now should
know how to get it.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- Ben Miller -
The NEC is a voluntary standard.

- Nehmo -
"voluntary"? Can I ignore it when I do electrical work? If you're saying
the state is acting voluntarily, that's meaningless.

- Ben Miller -
It is NOT law! Some jurisdictions adopt it,
others don't.

- Nehmo -
I quoted the 5th Circuit decision with the relevant concept, and I
posted a link to a site about it
http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm . When a code is adopted,
it becomes "law" in the jurisdiction where it's adopted.
"...Supreme Court need not reconsider a June 10, 2002 decision of
United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit (293 F.3d 791 (5th
Cir. 2002)). The Fifth Circuit had concluded that SBCCI retains the
copyright in its standard, but that "[w]hen those codes are enacted into
law ... they become to that extent 'the law' of the governmental
entities and may be reproduced or distributed as 'the law' of those
jurisdictions." The Fifth Circuit further observed that laws are not
subject to federal copyright law, and "public ownership of the law means
that 'the law' is in the 'public domain' for whatever use the citizens
choose to make of it."

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- oyemadi -
If you have the .pdf format of NEC book could you please post it to
http://www.yousendit.com
If the .pdf file is too big you might have to spilt them before
posting. I have this site on NEC which gives a very good insight about
NEC.
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.ph...alnecfreestuff

- Nehmo -
Yousendit sure is a slow system. It worked for me before, but it's
choking today. It's a primitive method to send a large file. The only
reason to use it is that it's simple.

I just emailed it (3 RAR files, Gmail caps at 10 MB) to you. I used the
addy you use when you post.
un-rared pdf = 16.6 MB (17,460,132 bytes). You'll need WinRAR
http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm to unpack.

After this, get up to speed and learn how to use a P2P app. Also learn
how to download form binary newsgroups, and how to use torrents. Get
started he http://www.slyck.com/index.php

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

Pop wrote:

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
: For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code
Tenth
: Edition (no password needed),
: Use this ed2k link:
:
:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
...
...
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL: It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific
computer, NOT an internet web site address. Why do I think the
OP knows/knew that?

Because Nehmo is, IMO, an accomplished thief and assumes others are as well.

Matt

"Ben Miller" wrote in message
...
"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
"that when a copyrighted standard or code is referenced into law
(particularly if it thereby becomes "the law"), the developer cannot
enforce its copyright against a free distribution of the standard. "

The NEC is a voluntary standard. It is NOT law!

It is in Minnesota, specifically listed by reference

http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/326/243.html


Some jurisdictions adopt it,
others don't.
Show where the NEC has been challenged in court and found to be public
domain.

Ben Miller


--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
www.bmillerengineering.com

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Pop wrote:

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
: For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
: Edition (no password needed),
: Use this ed2k link:
:
:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
...
...
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL: It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific computer, NOT an
internet web site address. Why do I think the OP knows/knew that?

Because Nehmo is, IMO, an accomplished thief and assumes others are as
well.

Matt


5th Circuit Court ruled a couple of years ago that any standard incorporated
into local ordinances must be available free of charge. Basically what the
court said was that laws cannot be copyrighted. So if the NEC is accepted by
a municapility or state as part of their regulations, it must be provided
free and the copyright is voided. I think that the suit was Veeck vs. I
don't recall the defendant.

Thomas Avery wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Pop wrote:


"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
: For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
: Edition (no password needed),
: Use this ed2k link:
:
:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
...
...
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL: It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific computer, NOT an
internet web site address. Why do I think the OP knows/knew that?

Because Nehmo is, IMO, an accomplished thief and assumes others are as
well.

Matt



5th Circuit Court ruled a couple of years ago that any standard incorporated
into local ordinances must be available free of charge. Basically what the
court said was that laws cannot be copyrighted. So if the NEC is accepted by
a municapility or state as part of their regulations, it must be provided
free and the copyright is voided. I think that the suit was Veeck vs. I
don't recall the defendant.



Irrelevant.

Nehmo is offering the NEC *handbook*. The *handbook* is *NOT*
the standard. It includes far more than just the NEC code.

Ed

"Thomas Avery" wrote in message
...

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Pop wrote:

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
: For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
: Edition (no password needed),
: Use this ed2k link:
:
:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
...
...
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL: It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific computer, NOT
an internet web site address. Why do I think the OP knows/knew that?

Because Nehmo is, IMO, an accomplished thief and assumes others are as
well.

Matt


5th Circuit Court ruled a couple of years ago that any standard
incorporated into local ordinances must be available free of charge.
Basically what the court said was that laws cannot be copyrighted. So if
the NEC is accepted by a municapility or state as part of their
regulations, it must be provided free and the copyright is voided. I think
that the suit was Veeck vs. I don't recall the defendant.

If it's free then I should be able to ask the NEC for it, or whoever
publishes it and they'll just hand it to me, right?

- ehsjr -
Irrelevant.
Nehmo is offering the NEC *handbook*. The *handbook* is *NOT*
the standard. It includes far more than just the NEC code.

- Nehmo –
If you want to be technical, I just provided a hash of a pdf of the
handbook, something which until now nobody has claimed a copyright to.
But hereby do so now. I might as well. You have my permission to copy
it.

The Veeck decisions http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm are
relevant because this discussion has turned to issue of publishing works
that have been adopted by states as law.

There is a fundamental principle he Someone under the command of a
law should be able to freely access the law, so he or she can find out
what the command is. You don’t agree with that?

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

Nehmo wrote:

If you want to be technical, I just provided a hash of a pdf of the
handbook, something which until now nobody has claimed a copyright to.
But hereby do so now. I might as well. You have my permission to copy
it.

What country are you claiming your copyright in?



I assume this thread has already made it to nfpa. most
publishers and large companies scan the net for references
to their work. I'm looking forward to how this turns out,
there's a lot of stuff i'd like to have copies of, but can't
afford.

At least i can still listen to "free" music on fm radio
without the ire of the riaa. A professional group I used to
have great respect for.

At some point we'll all be paying Encarta for anything
produced, published, or performed that we read on the 'net.

-larry / dallas

Nehmo, I've found http://www.tinyurl.com great for generating short url's
for inclusion in postings.

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
Edition (no password needed),
Use this ed2k link:

ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
|17460132|BE9758679E82FED70ED86AEF407245D6|h=UMDAH FKUTTRRKS25H2NPD5PDTTQ
YBGLB|/|sources,65.27.28.213:4662|/

(If word wraping introduced carriage returns at the end of the lines,
fix them.)

If you don't know how to use the link:
http://www.emule-project.net/home/perl/general.cgi?l=1

"Pat" wrote in message
...
Doesn't seem to work for me.


Worked for me.

- rj -
Nehmo, I've found http://www.tinyurl.com great for generating short
url's
for inclusion in postings.

- Nehmo -
For URLs, I use http://snipurl.com/teindex.php I have the bookmarklet on
a toolbar in Firefox. It's superior to tinyrul.
But an ed2k link is not a URL. The word "link" throws people off, but
it *is* a link if you see it an a app that's configured in conjunction
with a ed2k app to recognize it.
An ed2k link is an MD4 file hash with "ed2k://|file|+filename" appended
to it.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"FDR" wrote in message
.. .

"Thomas Avery" wrote in message
...

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Pop wrote:

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
: For a .pdf of the NEC 2005 Handbook, National Electric Code Tenth
: Edition (no password needed),
: Use this ed2k link:
:
:
ed2k://|file|2005_NEC_Handbook(National%20Electrical%20Co de_%20NFPA).pdf
...
...
Well, first of all, that's NOT an internet URL: It's a path to a
particular file on a particular hard drive in a specific computer, NOT
an internet web site address. Why do I think the OP knows/knew that?

Because Nehmo is, IMO, an accomplished thief and assumes others are as
well.

Matt


5th Circuit Court ruled a couple of years ago that any standard
incorporated into local ordinances must be available free of charge.
Basically what the court said was that laws cannot be copyrighted. So if
the NEC is accepted by a municapility or state as part of their
regulations, it must be provided free and the copyright is voided. I
think that the suit was Veeck vs. I don't recall the defendant.

If it's free then I should be able to ask the NEC for it, or whoever
publishes it and they'll just hand it to me, right?

Not exactly, if your local authority adopts it by reference or statement,
then it is up to your local authority to make it available, not the NFPA.

Many such local authorities now do this by placing a copy in the public
reading room, or library. You cannot necessarily check out such references
(just like you can't take home the unabridged dictionary), but you can read
it there all day long if you wish. Or most libraries can make copies of
specific pages for a small fee to cover their costs.

Meets the law as far as Veeck goes, and does *not* allow unlimited public
distribution.

daestrom

daestrom wrote:

[snip]

Not exactly, if your local authority adopts it by reference or statement,
then it is up to your local authority to make it available, not the NFPA.

Many such local authorities now do this by placing a copy in the public
reading room, or library. You cannot necessarily check out such references
(just like you can't take home the unabridged dictionary), but you can read
it there all day long if you wish. Or most libraries can make copies of
specific pages for a small fee to cover their costs.

Meets the law as far as Veeck goes, and does *not* allow unlimited public
distribution.

Exactly.

However, the NEC 2005 Handbook* is not adopted, or incorporated as law
by any jurisdiction I'm aware of. So there is NO requirement to make it
available to the public, library copy or not.

*Unless the OP erred in his original post, he refers to the Handbook and
not the Code itself.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Insert witty message here

Nehmo wrote:
- ehsjr -

Irrelevant.
Nehmo is offering the NEC *handbook*. The *handbook* is *NOT*
the standard. It includes far more than just the NEC code.


- Nehmo –
If you want to be technical, I just provided a hash of a pdf of the
handbook, something which until now nobody has claimed a copyright to.
But hereby do so now. I might as well. You have my permission to copy
it.

You just change things around to try to force fit a square peg
into a round hole. Here are your words from 10/30 at 1:48 :
"In any case, if you want a free copy of the Handbook, you now
should know how to get it." Your intent is absolutely clear,
and it is equally clear that it violates copyright.



The Veeck decisions http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm are
relevant because this discussion has turned to issue of publishing works
that have been adopted by states as law.

Wrong. The NEC Handbook has not been adopted anywhere, is not
of itself a standard and is copyright protected. Veeck does not
apply.


There is a fundamental principle he

Yes - you are stealing. The work that you are making available
to others has nothing to do with the drivel below.

Someone under the command of a
law should be able to freely access the law, so he or she can find out
what the command is. You don’t agree with that?

That is *NOT* the issue. The issue is the illegal violation
of a copyright for a work that has nothing to do with Veeck;
a work that is not a standard; a work that cannot be adopted
as law.

Ed

- daestrom -
Not exactly, if your local authority adopts it by reference or
statement,
then it is up to your local authority to make it available, not the
NFPA.

Many such local authorities now do this by placing a copy in the
public
reading room, or library. You cannot necessarily check out such
references
(just like you can't take home the unabridged dictionary), but you
can read
it there all day long if you wish. Or most libraries can make
copies of
specific pages for a small fee to cover their costs.

Meets the law as far as Veeck goes, and does *not* allow unlimited
public
distribution.

- Paul Hovnanian P.E. -
Exactly.

- Nehmo -
Veeck was an old guy in Texas who had a web site where he posted some
codes. Southern Building Code Congress International, an organization
that sells codes, sent him a Cease and Desist. Veeck, with no money
behind him, preemptively asked the courts for a declaratory judgment.
The Federal Fifth Circuit agreed with Veeck in that copyrights on works
that become law aren’t enforceable. The Supreme Court of the United
States declined to review the case; thus, the decision stands for the
Fifth circuit. It’s not controlling in any other circuit, however, it
has persuasive value in those places.

The Veeck decisions are summarized on the site:
http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm (I’ve posted the link a
few times already!) You can also see the decisions directly, but they’re
harder to understand that way.

There are numerous other decisions regarding the right to have access to
the law.

Now the library issue. I can testify that the NEC was _not_ available in
the Kansas City public libraries, seven years ago when I tried to look
at a copy. It was reportedly available at DCA, a municipal office, but I
actually ended up getting what I wanted from a private party. I don’t
know what the current situation is. But I imagine, if a library did have
a book or disk with the NEC, it would be the handbook.

- Paul Hovnanian P.E. -
However, the NEC 2005 Handbook* is not adopted, or incorporated as law
by any jurisdiction I'm aware of. So there is NO requirement to make
it
available to the public, library copy or not.

- Nehmo -
NFPA writes the code and the handbook, which has annotations and
pictures (see for yourself). Without which the code would be impossible
to understand. It’s hard enough as it is. It could easily be argued that
the handbook is an extension of the code. But fortunately, I don’t need
to argue that for the public to have access. Nowadays, anybody who wants
can download a copy.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- Nehmo –
If you want to be technical, I just provided a hash of a pdf of the
handbook, something which until now nobody has claimed a copyright
to.
But hereby do so now. I might as well. You have my permission to
copy
it.

- ehsjr -
You just change things around to try to force fit a square peg
into a round hole. Here are your words from 10/30 at 1:48 :
"In any case, if you want a free copy of the Handbook, you now
should know how to get it." Your intent is absolutely clear,
and it is equally clear that it violates copyright.

- Nehmo –
Of course I want people who want it to get copy of the NEC handbook [1].
I don’t recognize the copyright either. And I have further views on the
subject. But again, in this instance, I simply posted a brief hash of a
pdf. Posting ed2k links is not considered to be violating copyrights. If
you have a case or a law that says otherwise, I challenge you to cite
it.

Even websites that are extremely sensitive to copyright trouble allow
ed2k links. Afterdawn http://www.afterdawn.com/, comes to mind.
There are also many websites that publish ed2k links.
http://www.google.com/search?&q=ed2k . It’s really a somewhat obsolete
technology now that the faster but similar torrents are around. And by
the way, how much of internet traffic is torrent related? Please let us
know what you come up with.

Anyway, you don’t like people getting the handbook, don’t like me
posting the link, you accuse me of writing drivel, etc. So those who
agrees with you can ignore the link.

[1] I’m tired of people asking “What does NEC say on ….”

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

Nehmo wrote:
- ehsjr -

Irrelevant.
Nehmo is offering the NEC *handbook*. The *handbook* is *NOT*
the standard. It includes far more than just the NEC code.


- Nehmo –
If you want to be technical, I just provided a hash of a pdf of the
handbook, something which until now nobody has claimed a copyright to.
But hereby do so now. I might as well. You have my permission to copy
it.

The Veeck decisions http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm are
relevant because this discussion has turned to issue of publishing works
that have been adopted by states as law.

There is a fundamental principle he Someone under the command of a
law should be able to freely access the law, so he or she can find out
what the command is. You don’t agree with that?


But according to that reasoning it would be the responsibility of the
permitting office (where it became the force of law) to supply it to you
by arrangement with the copyright holder. The NEC was written as a
reference by a private company that expended money and resouces to
produce it and holds the copyright to their work. I don't see where they
are under any obligation to supply it to you for free.

Another good example of idiot judges needing to get thrown out on their
asses.

5th Circuit Court ruled a couple of years ago that any standard
incorporated into local ordinances must be available free of charge.
Basically what the court said was that laws cannot be copyrighted. So if
the NEC is accepted by a municapility or state as part of their
regulations, it must be provided free and the copyright is voided. I think
that the suit was Veeck vs. I don't recall the defendant.

- Nehmo –
There is a fundamental principle he Someone under the command of
a
law should be able to freely access the law, so he or she can find
out
what the command is. You don’t agree with that?

- George -
But according to that reasoning it would be the responsibility of the
permitting office (where it became the force of law) to supply it to
you
by arrangement with the copyright holder.

- Nehmo –
Assuming the copyright was valid and that such things can be
copyrighted…

True, it is irresponsible for a state to adopt a law without providing
for the public to have access to it. But the deed is done. And since
NFPA allowed this adoption, indeed, encouraged it, NFPA can’t complain
now.

- George -
The NEC was written as a
reference by a private company

- Nehmo –
I don’t have the time nor motivation to adequately research the subject,
but just how “private” is NFPA? It’s been intertwined with government
for a long time.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(
..

I have one more item to add to this subject.

http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB



--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

Nehmo wrote:

- Nehmo –
There is a fundamental principle he Someone under the command of
a
law should be able to freely access the law, so he or she can find
out
what the command is. You don’t agree with that?

- George -
But according to that reasoning it would be the responsibility of the
permitting office (where it became the force of law) to supply it to
you
by arrangement with the copyright holder.

- Nehmo –
Assuming the copyright was valid and that such things can be
copyrighted…

Any written work has an inherent copyright whether it is enforced by the
holder or not is another issue...

True, it is irresponsible for a state to adopt a law without providing
for the public to have access to it. But the deed is done. And since
NFPA allowed this adoption, indeed, encouraged it, NFPA can’t complain
now.

I don't know that NFPA can prevent the reference of their material, only
the redistribution thereof in violation of copyright law...

- George -
The NEC was written as a
reference by a private company

- Nehmo –
I don’t have the time nor motivation to adequately research the subject,
but just how “private” is NFPA? It’s been intertwined with government
for a long time.

Actually, NFPA is a nonprofit organization, not a "company" in the sense
of being a for profit enterprise. It isn't "intertwined" w/ government
at all.


See

http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp... kie%5Ftest=1

"The mission of the international nonprofit NFPA is to reduce the
worldwide burden of fire and other hazards on the quality of life by
providing and advocating consensus codes and standards, research,
training, and education. NFPA membership totals more than 79,000
individuals from around the world and more than 80 national trade and
professional organizations.

"Established in 1896, NFPA serves as the world's leading advocate of
fire prevention and is an authoritative source on public safety. In
fact, NFPA's 300 codes and standards influence every building, process,
service, design, and installation in the United States, as well as many
of those used in other countries. NFPA's focus on true consensus has
helped the association's code-development process earn accreditation
from the American National Standards Institute (ANSI)"

wrote:

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:45:11 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Actually, NFPA is a nonprofit organization, not a "company" in the sense
of being a for profit enterprise.

If you are one of the directors of NFPA, sitting on your yacht, that
is a distinction without a difference. This thing is a perpetual
motion money machine. Every time the local government adopts a
standard that insures the sale of many tens of thousands of overpriced
books. The standards themselves interlock with other standards
requiring buying more books.

And how would you propose to have a Standards organization work and
support itself and its work?

There are only two board members of NFPA that are full-time NFPA
employees. While I don't have renumeration figures, I seriously doubt
the Directors are gettin obscenely wealthy from their compensation from
NFPA.

And how would you propose to have a Standards organization work and
support itself and its work?

Well, duh... kickbacks from electrical equipment manufacturers,
of course. Why do you think AFCIs are now required for bedrooms?