Three months ago, we resurfaced the pool with Diamond Brite, replaced
the pool filter, and installed a new pool pump. Ever since, the Pool
Valet (caretaker) system has bubbled. (It did not bubble prior to the
resurfacing project.) The pool contractor says, "Not my problem." The
pool service company says, "Not my fault."
I took the filter out to have a look at it. The filter contained
enough sand and gravel to fill two 2 ounce bathroom cups. Plus, I
could see loose gravel in the bottom of the filter tank.
When I took the lid off of the pump, the first thing I noticed was the
fact that the filter basket was mis-shapen from having partially
melted. The little basket contained, as you can imagine, more gravel.
With the basket out, I could reach into the hole and scoop up gravel.
What can I do to
A) rid the system of the gravel
and
B) get the pump to stop sucking air?
PS-I don't care who's at fault. I just want the pool to properly
function and stop sucking my wallet.

Nader Chalfoun and Christopher Trumble had an interesting Tucson cool tower
story in the Spring 2005 U Oregon "Connector" architecture newsletter.

It's nice to avoid the energy of a swamp cooler blower. Can we also avoid
the large structure (sacrificing architectural drama) and use less water,
based on weather conditions, with constant comfort and better controls?

How about testing an alternative? Evaporate water inside a house and
also run a small exhaust fan as needed to remove water vapor from
the house. The most efficient corner for evaporative cooling in the
ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone is at 80 F and w = 0.012, approximately.

We (not me, with recent flooding in PA :-) might turn on a small indoor
swamp cooler with a thermostat when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and
turn on an exhaust fan with a humidistat when the indoor RH rises to
54% (w = 0.012 at 80 F.)

With enough green plants in a house, the cooler might seldom turn on.
With enough air leaks, the exhaust fan might seldom turn on.

Or run a soaker hose with pressurized water from a solenoid valve (which
might come from a dead washing machine) over a floorslab in an existing
house or under a floorslab with a vapor barrier under the hose in a new
house. The slab's thermal mass might store coolth for more efficient
cooling with cooler night air below the comfort temp near the floor.

During the day, a slow ceiling fan with a room temp thermostat and an
occupancy sensor could provide efficient cooling as needed. The fan could
provide comfort cooling and raise the acceptable RH all the way to 100% at
81 F with v = 0.5 m/s, according to ASHRAE-55's BASIC program, altho that
might cause mold, on a continuous basis. The slab could also lower the
mean radiant temp. A low-e ceiling and walls could radiate less to the slab
when nobody's home, conserving stored coolth.

NREL says Tucson has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0054 in June, with
a 67.9/99.6 F daily min/max. An 80 F house with a 400 Btu/h-F thermal
conductance and 4K Btu/h of internal gain might need (99.6-80)400+4K
= 8240 Btu/h of cooling at 3 PM.

Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6
to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h,
and 1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054)
and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm
and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.

How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve
the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?

Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2
of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate 0.1APs(1-0.54)
= 0.048A lb/h of water, (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie
502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.

At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi = 0.0233
and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h
with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August,
when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F.
It might precool a slab faster and more efficiently than simple AC.

An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1)
= 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose (80-67.9)1.5A
= 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough air,
a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2 hours
on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.

Nick

wrote:
Three months ago, we resurfaced the pool with Diamond Brite, replaced
the pool filter, and installed a new pool pump. Ever since, the Pool
Valet (caretaker) system has bubbled. (It did not bubble prior to the
resurfacing project.) The pool contractor says, "Not my problem."
The pool service company says, "Not my fault."
I took the filter out to have a look at it. The filter contained
enough sand and gravel to fill two 2 ounce bathroom cups. Plus, I
could see loose gravel in the bottom of the filter tank.
When I took the lid off of the pump, the first thing I noticed was the
fact that the filter basket was mis-shapen from having partially
melted. The little basket contained, as you can imagine, more gravel.
With the basket out, I could reach into the hole and scoop up gravel.
What can I do to
A) rid the system of the gravel
and
B) get the pump to stop sucking air?
PS-I don't care who's at fault. I just want the pool to properly
function and stop sucking my wallet.

Sounds like the pool pump is indeed sucking air; I would guess from a
leaking gasket or o-ring.

Just clean out all the gravel you can by hand, backflush / clean the
filter assembly, and replace any o-rings you come across on the low-side
of the pool pump.

Travis Jordan wrote:
Sounds like the pool pump is indeed sucking air; I would guess from a
leaking gasket or o-ring.

Just clean out all the gravel you can by hand, backflush / clean the
filter assembly, and replace any o-rings you come across on the
low-side of the pool pump.

Forgot to ask - do you have the optional "Debris Containment System" for
the Pool Valet? If so, check to be sure that the air leak isn't
originating there.

Do you see bubbles in the clear tank at the pool pump when it is
running?

wrote in message
ups.com...
Three months ago, we resurfaced the pool with Diamond Brite, replaced
the pool filter, and installed a new pool pump. Ever since, the Pool
Valet (caretaker) system has bubbled. (It did not bubble prior to the
resurfacing project.) The pool contractor says, "Not my problem." The
pool service company says, "Not my fault."
I took the filter out to have a look at it. The filter contained
enough sand and gravel to fill two 2 ounce bathroom cups. Plus, I
could see loose gravel in the bottom of the filter tank.
When I took the lid off of the pump, the first thing I noticed was the
fact that the filter basket was mis-shapen from having partially
melted. The little basket contained, as you can imagine, more gravel.
With the basket out, I could reach into the hole and scoop up gravel.
What can I do to
A) rid the system of the gravel
and
B) get the pump to stop sucking air?
PS-I don't care who's at fault. I just want the pool to properly
function and stop sucking my wallet.

Who replaced the pump and filter? If you did then your on the hook. If one
of the contractors did then I think they are on the hook.
Just how did you take the filter out? Paper filter?
Get a new basket, of the proper manufacture. The right basket saves the pump
from stray trash.

Sucking air is pretty easy to find start looking at all of the joints where
the new equipment was installed. Saran wrap or similar wrapped over the
joints TIGHTLY will help ya find the leaks.

Oh the "the hole in the ground where all the money goes"

Thx for the reply.
Sorry for the dumb question, but what do you mean 'backflush'? How do
I backflush?

A- Do not have debris containment system for pool valet. I called the
mfg of pool valet and they indicated to me, based on my description of
the problem, that the problem was not part of the pool valet system.
B- I can see water movement, but not bubbles per se, in the window of
the pump.

Thanks for the reply and suggestion.
We replaced the filter cartridge with a new one 6 weeks post-diamond
brite.
The maintenance company installed the pump (the old one was nearly 14
years old!) about the same time.
Please explain how to use Saran Wrap to detect leaks. Sorry for asking
a totally bone-head question, but I'm new to the whole swimming pool
ownership (and related expensive maintenance) experience.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply and suggestion.
We replaced the filter cartridge with a new one 6 weeks post-diamond
brite.
The maintenance company installed the pump (the old one was nearly 14
years old!) about the same time.
Please explain how to use Saran Wrap to detect leaks. Sorry for asking
a totally bone-head question, but I'm new to the whole swimming pool
ownership (and related expensive maintenance) experience.


you can not finger out how to wrap a piece of plastic around the joint?

Replacing the filter 6 weeks ago and you do not know how to back flush?
No wonder the pool is dirty. There is a valve on top that you turn when the
motor is off.
When I had my pool resurfaced I was back flushing 2-3 times a day for the
first week.
Proably do not have a pressure guage either.

Time to go to the pool store and learn or pay someone to do it for ya.

wrote:
Sorry for the dumb question, but what do you mean 'backflush'? How do
I backflush?

Certain kinds of filters provide a valve that allows you to flush out
the filter by running water backwards through it and then out the drain.
Other filters (such as the cartridge type) don't have this ability and
you have to remove the cartridges in order to clean them. Check your
owner's manual or the web site for the filter manufacturer.

wrote:
B- I can see water movement, but not bubbles per se, in the window of
the pump.

Sounds like it might be a leaky gasket where the pool inlet assembly
(the 'window') meets the pool pump body.

Thanks for this input and put down. Guess I needed that.
I thought I could hire someone to take care of the pool as I am on the
road a lot.
Boy, was I wrong!
I'll go outside NOW and wrap plastic around the joints and see if that
helps.
When the pool was resurfaced, I was out of the country for 3 weeks on a
job, so missed the opportunity to learn about the pool from the
contractor and relied on the service provider to take care of
everything for me.
My filter is a paper cartridge. The 'silo' has a pressure gauge on the
lid.
I'll try to go to a pool supply store tomorrow and see if they can talk
me through some of the basics.

Thx for the tip.
I'll research the Hayward C-750 on the mfg website.

wrote:
Thx for the tip.
I'll research the Hayward C-750 on the mfg website.

The C-750 is a large (75 sq ft) cartridge filter that I think is now out
of production. You may be able to find a similar filter assembly on the
Haywardnet.com web site. You definitely need to remove and clean the
cartridge if you pool service company hasn't been doing this....in which
case your system pressure must be off the charts by now.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Sorry for the dumb question, but what do you mean 'backflush'? How do
I backflush?

Backflush cleans the sand filter (by pumping water
from the pool through the filter and out to waste.)
Do this once a week, just until the water runs clear
and clean.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

wrote in message
oups.com...

Please explain how to use Saran Wrap to detect leaks. Sorry for asking
a totally bone-head question, but I'm new to the whole swimming pool
ownership (and related expensive maintenance) experience.

You should have no leaks at all. On advice by good old
Sam at the pool store I have no leaks since (a) replacing
friction fittings with screw fittings, (b) using Teflon plumber's
tape on each male screw part (6 turns over the threads plus
three more at the end of the threads.) This is how components
of an above-ground pool are assembled every May (disassembled
in October or November.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

wrote in message
...
Nader Chalfoun and Christopher Trumble had an interesting Tucson cool
tower
story in the Spring 2005 U Oregon "Connector" architecture newsletter.

It's nice to avoid the energy of a swamp cooler blower. Can we also avoid
the large structure (sacrificing architectural drama) and use less water,
based on weather conditions, with constant comfort and better controls?

How about testing an alternative? Evaporate water inside a house and
also run a small exhaust fan as needed to remove water vapor from
the house. The most efficient corner for evaporative cooling in the
ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone is at 80 F and w = 0.012, approximately.

We (not me, with recent flooding in PA :-) might turn on a small indoor
swamp cooler with a thermostat when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and
turn on an exhaust fan with a humidistat when the indoor RH rises to
54% (w = 0.012 at 80 F.)

With enough green plants in a house, the cooler might seldom turn on.
With enough air leaks, the exhaust fan might seldom turn on.

Or run a soaker hose with pressurized water from a solenoid valve (which
might come from a dead washing machine) over a floorslab in an existing
house or under a floorslab with a vapor barrier under the hose in a new
house. The slab's thermal mass might store coolth for more efficient
cooling with cooler night air below the comfort temp near the floor.

During the day, a slow ceiling fan with a room temp thermostat and an
occupancy sensor could provide efficient cooling as needed. The fan could
provide comfort cooling and raise the acceptable RH all the way to 100% at
81 F with v = 0.5 m/s, according to ASHRAE-55's BASIC program, altho that
might cause mold, on a continuous basis. The slab could also lower the
mean radiant temp. A low-e ceiling and walls could radiate less to the
slab
when nobody's home, conserving stored coolth.

NREL says Tucson has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0054 in June, with
a 67.9/99.6 F daily min/max. An 80 F house with a 400 Btu/h-F thermal
conductance and 4K Btu/h of internal gain might need (99.6-80)400+4K
= 8240 Btu/h of cooling at 3 PM.
-----------scientific drival ----------------------------------------
Nick

The cooling tower idea has been around Arizona since the padre's came from
Mexico and California.
The UofA touted them in the mid 70's when the electric rates started jumping
here in the desert.
Most of the installations do not last more than 4 years. The salts left
behind from the evaporating water are a real issue to take care of. City of
Phoenix built two towers near Civic Plaza. They worked 2 summers and were
then disconnected from water supplies. They were very pleasant to walk
under during the June and July heat. When the Monsoons arrive they are
worthless.
The weather men all now give dew point readings all year long. Coolers will
not work over a 40 F dew point. Water prices here in the desert are jumping
more than 8% a year. It is hard to install something that is good for 60-90
days a year.
I have had swamp coolers in the past. Being a person that measures
everything I started keeping track of the costs. When my water bill exceeded
my power bill there was a reckoning. I did not like the greasy feeling when
drying off after a shower. I came to the realization that for a few dollars
more I could have a/c all of the time. I only have one friend that has a
cooler now, he has it on his garage. Does not use the water much cause of
the rust on his tools.
Great idea and it does work. They are a bitch to take care of over time.
Just ask anyone who has worked with one. All the math in the world will not
make it "feel right".

SQLit wrote:

wrote:

Nader Chalfoun and Christopher Trumble had an interesting Tucson cool
tower story in the Spring 2005 U Oregon "Connector" architecture newsletter.

[About architectural students designing and testing cool towers.]

It's nice to avoid the energy of a swamp cooler blower. Can we also avoid
the large structure (sacrificing architectural drama) and use less water,
based on weather conditions, with constant comfort and better controls?

How about testing an alternative? Evaporate water inside a house and
also run a small exhaust fan as needed to remove water vapor from
the house. The most efficient corner for evaporative cooling in the
ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone is at 80 F and w = 0.012, approximately.

We (not me, with recent flooding in PA :-) might turn on a small indoor
swamp cooler with a thermostat when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and
turn on an exhaust fan with a humidistat when the indoor RH rises to
54% (w = 0.012 at 80 F.)

With enough green plants in a house, the cooler might seldom turn on.
With enough air leaks, the exhaust fan might seldom turn on.

Or run a soaker hose with pressurized water from a solenoid valve (which
might come from a dead washing machine) over a floorslab in an existing
house or under a floorslab with a vapor barrier under the hose in a new
house. The slab's thermal mass might store coolth for more efficient
cooling with cooler night air below the comfort temp near the floor.

During the day, a slow ceiling fan with a room temp thermostat and an
occupancy sensor could provide efficient cooling as needed. The fan could
provide comfort cooling and raise the acceptable RH all the way to 100% at
81 F with v = 0.5 m/s, according to ASHRAE-55's BASIC program, altho that
might cause mold, on a continuous basis. The slab could also lower the
mean radiant temp. A low-e ceiling and walls could radiate less to the
slab when nobody's home, conserving stored coolth.

NREL says Tucson has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0054 in June, with
a 67.9/99.6 F daily min/max. An 80 F house with a 400 Btu/h-F thermal
conductance and 4K Btu/h of internal gain might need (99.6-80)400+4K
= 8240 Btu/h of cooling at 3 PM.
-----------scientific drival ----------------------------------------

Drivel restored for the literati:

Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6
to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h, and
1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054)
and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm
and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.

How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve
the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?

Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2
of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate 0.1APs(1-0.54)
= 0.048A lb/h of water (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie
502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.

At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi = 0.0233
and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h
with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August,
when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F.
It might be a fast way to cool a slab.

An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1)
= 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose (80-67.9)1.5A
= 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough air,
a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2 hours
on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.

The cooling tower idea has been around Arizona since the padre's came from
Mexico and California...

But that's irrelevant, when considering _alternatives_ to cool towers, no?

... Coolers will not work over a 40 F dew point.

That's disproved in the drivel above :-)

... It is hard to install something that is good for 60-90 days a year.

This indoor scheme is cheap, and some variations can work all year.

I have had swamp coolers in the past...

But this scheme is not a swamp cooler.

... for a few dollars more I could have a/c all of the time.

They can work together. A rational person who understood drivel might use
this scheme when water costs less than running an AC, depending on weather
and water and electrical costs. For instance, if water costs 0.2 cents/gallon
(one Phoenix site mentions $1.50/1000 gallons), he might use AC in the last
case if the water cooling cost ($0.002/(8x1255) = $2x10^-7/Btu) were less
than the cost of an AC with a COP of 3 with an electrical cost of $C/kWh
($C/(3x3412) = $Cx10^-4/Btu), ie if C $0.002, ie if electricity costs less
than 0.2 cents per kWh, ie "use AC if the cost/kWh is less than the cost/gal."
But electricity typically costs 10 cents/kWh, ie 50 times more.

Nick

wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:

wrote:

Nader Chalfoun and Christopher Trumble had an interesting Tucson cool
tower story in the Spring 2005 U Oregon "Connector" architecture
newsletter.

[About architectural students designing and testing cool towers.]

It's nice to avoid the energy of a swamp cooler blower. Can we also
avoid
the large structure (sacrificing architectural drama) and use less
water,
based on weather conditions, with constant comfort and better controls?

How about testing an alternative? Evaporate water inside a house and
also run a small exhaust fan as needed to remove water vapor from
the house. The most efficient corner for evaporative cooling in the
ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone is at 80 F and w = 0.012, approximately.

We (not me, with recent flooding in PA :-) might turn on a small indoor
swamp cooler with a thermostat when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and
turn on an exhaust fan with a humidistat when the indoor RH rises to
54% (w = 0.012 at 80 F.)

With enough green plants in a house, the cooler might seldom turn on.
With enough air leaks, the exhaust fan might seldom turn on.

Or run a soaker hose with pressurized water from a solenoid valve
(which
might come from a dead washing machine) over a floorslab in an existing
house or under a floorslab with a vapor barrier under the hose in a new
house. The slab's thermal mass might store coolth for more efficient
cooling with cooler night air below the comfort temp near the floor.

During the day, a slow ceiling fan with a room temp thermostat and an
occupancy sensor could provide efficient cooling as needed. The fan
could
provide comfort cooling and raise the acceptable RH all the way to 100%
at
81 F with v = 0.5 m/s, according to ASHRAE-55's BASIC program, altho
that
might cause mold, on a continuous basis. The slab could also lower the
mean radiant temp. A low-e ceiling and walls could radiate less to the
slab when nobody's home, conserving stored coolth.

NREL says Tucson has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0054 in June,
with
a 67.9/99.6 F daily min/max. An 80 F house with a 400 Btu/h-F thermal
conductance and 4K Btu/h of internal gain might need (99.6-80)400+4K
= 8240 Btu/h of cooling at 3 PM.
-----------scientific drival ----------------------------------------

Drivel restored for the literati:

Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6
to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h,
and
1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054)
and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm
and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.

How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve
the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?

Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2
of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate
0.1APs(1-0.54)
= 0.048A lb/h of water (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie
502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.

At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi =
0.0233
and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h
with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August,
when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F.
It might be a fast way to cool a slab.

An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa =
29.921/(0.62198/wo+1)
= 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose
(80-67.9)1.5A
= 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough
air,
a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2
hours
on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.

The cooling tower idea has been around Arizona since the padre's came
from
Mexico and California...

But that's irrelevant, when considering _alternatives_ to cool towers, no?

... Coolers will not work over a 40 F dew point.

That's disproved in the drivel above :-)

... It is hard to install something that is good for 60-90 days a year.

This indoor scheme is cheap, and some variations can work all year.

I have had swamp coolers in the past...

But this scheme is not a swamp cooler.

... for a few dollars more I could have a/c all of the time.

They can work together. A rational person who understood drivel might use
this scheme when water costs less than running an AC, depending on weather
and water and electrical costs. For instance, if water costs 0.2
cents/gallon
(one Phoenix site mentions $1.50/1000 gallons), he might use AC in the
last
case if the water cooling cost ($0.002/(8x1255) = $2x10^-7/Btu) were less
than the cost of an AC with a COP of 3 with an electrical cost of $C/kWh
($C/(3x3412) = $Cx10^-4/Btu), ie if C $0.002, ie if electricity costs
less
than 0.2 cents per kWh, ie "use AC if the cost/kWh is less than the
cost/gal."
But electricity typically costs 10 cents/kWh, ie 50 times more.

Nick

You obviously have never kept one of these running year in year out.
You obviously do not have allergies that are exacerbated by high humidity.

Have you done the calculations for all that humidity you have pumped into
the home. Then try to remove it with the a/c? Sure you can save a buck or
two maybe 90 days a year with swamp cooling. Considering all of the work it
takes to keep the unit running at your peak efficiency. I will change a
$6.00 filter every 30 days instead.

I understood the drivel, just decided to be brief. The numbers have little
to do with reality in the desert. Where is the constant for dust storms?

Put one in your house and let me know how it is doing 5 years from now.
Until you provide me with the 5 year data I will stick to my experience with
them. New homes here are not even offered with a evap option. Even if you
ask for it they say wait until the house closes and then install it.
Most of the flexible duct work installed today would have serious problems
delivering the air to all the rooms.

SQLit wrote:

I understood the drivel...

Obviously not.

Most of the flexible duct work installed today would have serious problems
delivering the air to all the rooms.

What ductwork?

Nick

Where is the economy in replacing wallpaper and multi cases of cleaner to remove
all the mould from the corners of the rooms?


wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:

I understood the drivel...

Obviously not.

Most of the flexible duct work installed today would have serious problems
delivering the air to all the rooms.

What ductwork?

Nick

John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

Where is the economy in replacing wallpaper and multi cases of cleaner
to remove all the mould from the corners of the rooms?

Mold won't form below 60% RH.

Nick

Mould may not form below 60% RH (debatable) but on the walls full of
condensation the humidity may be 100%

wrote in message
...
John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

Where is the economy in replacing wallpaper and multi cases of cleaner
to remove all the mould from the corners of the rooms?

Mold won't form below 60% RH.

Nick

John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

Mould may not form below 60% RH (debatable) but on the walls full of
condensation the humidity may be 100%

Learn more physics. Why would the walls have condensation if
the room air has less than 60% RH and it's warmer outdoors?

Nick

"John P.. Bengi" JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote in message
...
Mould may not form below 60% RH (debatable) but on the walls full of
condensation the humidity may be 100%

He keeps coming back with this same subject. He needs to spend one summer
in Yuma to prove his theories. Until he comes back with test results I will
ignore him.

Because at night time the walls cool down and condense water like any other
surface.

Get a brain and learn to think past your ignorance.

tit for tat?

wrote in message
...
John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

Mould may not form below 60% RH (debatable) but on the walls full of
condensation the humidity may be 100%

Learn more physics. Why would the walls have condensation if
the room air has less than 60% RH and it's warmer outdoors?

Nick

Never has any figure or cites to back his little snips and snipes.

50% troll

"Rich256" wrote in message
...

"John P.. Bengi" JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote in message
...
Mould may not form below 60% RH (debatable) but on the walls full of
condensation the humidity may be 100%

He keeps coming back with this same subject. He needs to spend one summer
in Yuma to prove his theories. Until he comes back with test results I will
ignore him.

John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

... at night time the walls cool down and condense water
like any other surface.

People in Arizona don't seem to worry much about mold.

The RH has to be over 60% for 2 weeks to form it.

Nick

Arizona has low humidity. Not really a good example

People here spend a lot of money and energy putting in heat exchangers and
bathroom ventilation systems to keep the humidity down. Maybe some climates
could use it.

wrote in message
...
John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

... at night time the walls cool down and condense water
like any other surface.

People in Arizona don't seem to worry much about mold.

The RH has to be over 60% for 2 weeks to form it.

Nick

John P.. Bengi JBengispam@spam@yahoo,com wrote:

Arizona has low humidity...

It's an excellent climate for evaporative cooling.

Nick

Lol, are you still trying to re-invent pyschrometrics Nick?

Is this the wetted floor below or the 'inverted Pool of Pine' above?

I met a friend of yours today, you have quoted him before as saying "60
is close enough to 100 for me"

Nicks classics

" humidify your house by keeping your basement floor wet with a hose"

" Remove steam radiator vents for free humidity"

and 5689 more on google, now watch nick jump in to defend himself.

Abby Normal wrote:

Lol, are you still trying to re-invent pyschrometrics Nick?

No. Just trying to reinvent cool towers and swamp coolers :-)
I'd really like to see someone try out some of these indoor
evaporative schemes. No word from the U AZ profs, nor SBSE.

Is this the wetted floor below or the 'inverted Pool of Pine' above?

Dunno what you mean by that. Wetting the floor seems like a good idea
in the southwest, with smart controls. Store coolth in a slab...

I met a friend of yours today, you have quoted him before as saying "60
is close enough to 100 for me"

Drew Gillett? :-) I wonder what he's up to.

Nick

It still sounds as though you are wetting a slab and or weting a
ceiling above, and plan on using low rate exhaust which will not work.

Mr. G is putting on a photvoltaic seminar alond with the florida solar
energy center down here. Listening to their philosphies I figured he
would have to know you.


wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

Lol, are you still trying to re-invent pyschrometrics Nick?

No. Just trying to reinvent cool towers and swamp coolers :-)
I'd really like to see someone try out some of these indoor
evaporative schemes. No word from the U AZ profs, nor SBSE.

Is this the wetted floor below or the 'inverted Pool of Pine' above?

Dunno what you mean by that. Wetting the floor seems like a good idea
in the southwest, with smart controls. Store coolth in a slab...

I met a friend of yours today, you have quoted him before as saying "60
is close enough to 100 for me"

Drew Gillett? :-) I wonder what he's up to.

Nick

Abby Normal wrote:

It still sounds as though you are wetting a slab...

Dampening...

... and plan on using low rate exhaust which will not work.

I disagree. You might too, if you think outside the swamp cooler box.

Mr. G is putting on a photvoltaic seminar alond with the florida solar
energy center down here. Listening to their philosphies I figured he
would have to know you.

I've never seen Drew use a calculator. As a Professional Engineer,
he has a "mathematical license," like poetic license :-)

You can read some of our Solar Today stories at

http://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick

Nick

Your dampened slab cools the earth beneath it.

You need the high airflow, as the evaporative cooling process follows a
constant wetbulb line. You are sensibly heating and humidifing the
house with your train of thought. You can't program this one in BASIC,
you have to plot it.


wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

It still sounds as though you are wetting a slab...

Dampening...

... and plan on using low rate exhaust which will not work.

I disagree. You might too, if you think outside the swamp cooler box.

Mr. G is putting on a photvoltaic seminar alond with the florida solar
energy center down here. Listening to their philosphies I figured he
would have to know you.

I've never seen Drew use a calculator. As a Professional Engineer,
he has a "mathematical license," like poetic license :-)

You can read some of our Solar Today stories at

http://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick

Nick

I have argued many times that mold needs a wet spot to get started, it
does not spontaneously generate by extracting moisture directly from
the air.

It is not so much the RH of the air, it is the humidity of the food
source.

The greatest heat loss from a swimming pool is evaporation.

The water evaporating draws the majority of its heat from the water
that is left behind. Your evaporating water cools the slab and
humidifies the indoor air.

Heat external to the residence, is evaporating a good portion of the
water. The heat to evaporate is not all coming from the room air.

Evaporative Cooling is an adiabiatic process where the wet bulb is
constant.

Your scheme does not follow a constant wet bulb. Your constant exhaust
directly adds sensible heat to the room air.

Then you use ceiling fans to try and blow down the warm air, to be
cooled from contact with the slab.

You are trying to make the people live inside of a swamp cooler that
does not work. You would be giving Rube Goldberg an allergy

You need to work out your scheme and plot it on a chart. I have pointed
out to you before, with high latent loads and low SHR ratios, that
cooling and dehumidying air can not always be down in a single process.
You need to over cool air and then reheat, using much more energy than
the difference in enthalpies of the starting and ending points
calculate out as.

Clausius Claperon does not describe the adiabiatic conversion of
sensible heat into latent heat.

I dare you to plot and prove what you calculate. Scan it as a jpeg and
give a link on your site.

Plot the process on a pyschrometric chart, should be a simple matter to
be able to plot and use the standrard pyschrometric equations to back
up your goldbergesque calculations.

Do you guys have to crosspost this crap across so many
groups unrelated to your fight?

"Abby Normal" wrote in message
oups.com...
I dare you to plot and prove what you calculate. Scan
it as a jpeg and
give a link on your site.

Plot the process on a pyschrometric chart, should be
a simple matter to
be able to plot and use the standrard pyschrometric
equations to back
up your goldbergesque calculations.