My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the contract
and it called for 30, so I was really concerned my Mom had been ripped
off. I looked it up on the internet and confirmed it was definitely #15
(Esgard No.15 Asphalt Felt Plain).

After some more research, it seems it's not as serious of a cheat to use
15 instead of 30 on a low pitched roof like my Mom's, but I'm still
****ed they'd take advantage of her like that.

My opinion of this particular roofer is already pretty low after finding
a huge gash on the patio roof that they made and slapped a piece of
icegard on it. They seem to think there's little chance of us going up
on the roof to check it out....

I've already complained about the hole and they've agreed to come back
and fix it properly. Should I even bother bringing up the felt paper?
Other than these two discoveries, the roofing job looks okay. Does
Northeast Ohio need 30 pound felt paper?

Is this kind of thing common?

In article ,
"Don T. Spam" wrote:

My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the contract
and it called for 30, so I was really concerned my Mom had been ripped
off. I looked it up on the internet and confirmed it was definitely #15
(Esgard No.15 Asphalt Felt Plain).

After some more research, it seems it's not as serious of a cheat to use
15 instead of 30 on a low pitched roof like my Mom's, but I'm still
****ed they'd take advantage of her like that.

My opinion of this particular roofer is already pretty low after finding
a huge gash on the patio roof that they made and slapped a piece of
icegard on it. They seem to think there's little chance of us going up
on the roof to check it out....

I've already complained about the hole and they've agreed to come back
and fix it properly. Should I even bother bringing up the felt paper?
Other than these two discoveries, the roofing job looks okay. Does
Northeast Ohio need 30 pound felt paper?

Is this kind of thing common?

ask for a price adjustment or have them do it per the contract.

but never underestimate the impact that your lawyer can make

- Don T. Spam -
I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the
contract
and it called for 30,

- Nehmo -
* The wrapper paper alone isn’t conclusive. They might have had a roll
of 15 on the truck.
* 15 lb isn’t going to make the roof fail, but if you agreed to 30 lb,
that’s what you should have got. But mom already paid, didn’t she?
* You don’t have the knowledge to evaluate the job when you say it
“looks okay” otherwise.
* You’re going to trust these guys to correctly rectify when you already
believe they’re “pretty low”?
* _Any_ wrappers left behind is sloppy.
* The lower the roof pitch, the more important the quality needs to be.

**You’re posting anonymously and you’re not naming roofing company;
thus, you’re chicken, and because of that you’re unlikely to get any
remedy. So quit trying to be mommy’s hero. She’ll love you anyway, and
you'll look like a weakling when don't get the adjustment.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

Get the city inspector out, I know it will mean pulling a late permit
but it should only be 20$. Say the roofer forgot to do it. Then ask for
an inspection . This is city inspectors job, is free-you actualy paid
for it, and is why everyone can benefit from pulling a permit. If you
found 2 things wrong he may find 20 more. Document everything in
writing, as in emails. and record conversations, I do on contracts.
Photograph issues before they fix them. Get a sample of paper from the
roof to confirm it is 15lb, Email the manufacturer to see what they say
about 15lbs adverse life spam vs 30. Then ask for a rebate of what you
think is fair. If they refuse or are jerks, file small claim, its easy
and cheap 35$ for me. Even suponea the inspector if you must go to
court. I have done this. You should check his insurance and lisence, he
is a hack and you never know what you will find. Your issue is common.

Shouldn't he also get a new constitutional amendment to cover the
issue, m Ransley?
--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"Nehmo" writes:

**You’re posting anonymously and you’re not naming roofing company;
thus, you’re chicken, and because of that you’re unlikely to get any
remedy.

Nehmo's is either a troll, or the sort of person who'd do a job like
the one the OP is trying to remedy.

People post anonymously because to name themselves and the roofing
company would be making a faulty assumption that the roofing company
might not hear about it, and thus undermine their cause. And, for the
purpose of the discussion, does it matter who these individuals are?

And anyone who wouldn't try to be their parent's advocate when dealing
with the service industry (which has a not-terribly-flattering record
on giving a fair shake to older folks) is simply a ****ty son or
daughter.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Dishonest roofers will do this at times. They get to charge more and
carry less weight.
You can have an old beat up shingle roof and it still won't leak when
the paper underneath is functional. The heavier paper is less apt to
get damaged while installing the roof and will make the roof more
serviceable. If you put an extra layer of shingles on later, which I
never would suggest, it helps there too.
I would not simply accept a refund of the tiny price difference on the
paper. The installation is what you paid for. I would pursue it if at
all possible for you to do so. I would spend money based on principle
here. That's just me.
My brother had his roof done by what was supposed to be a reputable
construction company. However, the crew leader was dishonest. They
thought they could take advantage of the situation as this brother
lacked the knowledge and physical capability of inspecting the work.
They ended up doing two complete tear offs before the work met the
contract and I signed off on it. Fortunately, the owner of the company
was reputable and did much work for the big insurance company. That
provided leverage you probably don't have in your case.

Roofing contractors seem to specalize in being rip off artists. The
crook who did my mother's roof was paid to put on 30 year shingles - he
used 20 and was forced to pay back a significant amount. Always always
always watch these people with a hawk eye - yes there are honest
contractors but there are armies of crooks out there. If they can save
time of money by taking short cuts - they will do that.

When the housing boom slows down - hope the crooks get real skinny.

i had a guy do that to me and i told him i wouldnt pay because
he broke the contract.i said only way id pay is if he put on what was in
the contract.. he hassled me for a while then went away. lucas

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

- Nehmo -
You’re posting anonymously and you’re not naming roofing company;
thus, you’re chicken, and because of that you’re unlikely to get any
remedy.

-Todd H -
Nehmo's is either a troll,

- Nehmo -
I think I'm one, but what difference does it make? I could be a troll, a
terrorist, or a tuba player. If you want to attack, you need to go to
the merits.

-Todd H -
or the sort of person who'd do a job like
the one the OP is trying to remedy.

- Nehmo -
Now, how does that follow? If one of my guys made a hole in a customer's
roof, I certainly would make sure the customer understood that the event
would require additional resources. But I'm a reasonable contractor.
Something like that wouldn't cost the customer too much more.

-Todd H -
People post anonymously because to name themselves and the roofing
company would be making a faulty assumption that the roofing company
might not hear about it, and thus undermine their cause.

- Nehmo -
Most of the time they post anonymously because they're cowards. I know;
I've done it a few hundred times.

And isn't the defense of the anonymousness up to the one who is
anonymous? I challenged him, and he chickened again.

-Todd H -
And, for the
purpose of the discussion, does it matter who these individuals are?

- Nehmo -
Yes. It's not a hypothetical discussion. There is a real roofing company
that others may use of may have used. OP is selfishly not alerting them
and he is inhibiting potential first-hand advice.

Moreover, credibility counts. Anonymous cowards don't have much.

-Todd H -
And anyone who wouldn't try to be their parent's advocate when dealing
with the service industry (which has a not-terribly-flattering record
on giving a fair shake to older folks) is simply a ****ty son or
daughter.

- Nehmo -
Lots of sons try to compensate for years of inconsiderateness to mom by
posing as her saver from some third party. Often these kids are still
getting money form mom.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"Nehmo" writes:

Most of the time they post anonymously because they're cowards. I know;
I've done it a few hundred times.


Lots of sons try to compensate for years of inconsiderateness to mom by
posing as her saver from some third party. Often these kids are still
getting money form mom.

I dunno there Nehmo... I think we have a new poster child for the
Blame the Victims League of Unsubstantiated Claims and Prejudices.


Point is, you unfairly attacked a guy whose trying to do some research
or brainstorming to keep his mother from being taken by a roofing
contractor. If someone is strategizing how to rectify a given
situation, that they post anonymously and don't name names actually
keeps a card in their hand that they can play in the futu that is,
the value of a disatisfied customer being able to say "I'd really like
to avoid having to make a big deal about this situation not being
resolved. I'm sure you have spent a lot of effort trying to build a
good name/reputation for your company. And, well... let's just say
that I have the ability to make a LOT of noise if this isn't
resolved."

To hold that card rather than playing it at this point isn't
cowardice, nor is it an indication of being dependent on Mom, it's
simply reasonable and intelligent.

But, I do have to say, you've given us some interesting insight into
your psyche, and perhaps past/present experiences with such an
interesting view on the world.

Tell us about your childhood.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

"butch burton" wrote in message
oups.com...
Roofing contractors seem to specalize in being rip off artists. The
crook who did my mother's roof was paid to put on 30 year shingles - he
used 20 and was forced to pay back a significant amount. Always always
always watch these people with a hawk eye - yes there are honest
contractors but there are armies of crooks out there. If they can save
time of money by taking short cuts - they will do that.

When the housing boom slows down - hope the crooks get real skinny.


The housing boom will never slow down unless we all stop making babies.

As for evaluating contractors, there is a growing website called
http://www.angieslist.com/ which has customer reviews of contractors. It is
not in my city yet but I definately would use such a resource as well as
checking the licence for complaints before hiring a contractor.

Checking up dosen't always help when you are going for a bargain price by
hiring samller unproven contractors. in that case, you have to know what
you are buying and how to tell if you actually got it.

Did he put 2 layers of 15 pound felt on? If he put 1 layer with a 4"
overlap time to be mad.............





On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:23:06 -0700, Robert Morien
wrote:

In article ,
"Don T. Spam" wrote:

My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the contract
and it called for 30, so I was really concerned my Mom had been ripped
off. I looked it up on the internet and confirmed it was definitely #15
(Esgard No.15 Asphalt Felt Plain).

After some more research, it seems it's not as serious of a cheat to use
15 instead of 30 on a low pitched roof like my Mom's, but I'm still
****ed they'd take advantage of her like that.

My opinion of this particular roofer is already pretty low after finding
a huge gash on the patio roof that they made and slapped a piece of
icegard on it. They seem to think there's little chance of us going up
on the roof to check it out....

I've already complained about the hole and they've agreed to come back
and fix it properly. Should I even bother bringing up the felt paper?
Other than these two discoveries, the roofing job looks okay. Does
Northeast Ohio need 30 pound felt paper?

Is this kind of thing common?

ask for a price adjustment or have them do it per the contract.

but never underestimate the impact that your lawyer can make

Nehmo wrote:
- Nehmo -

You’re posting anonymously and you’re not naming roofing company;
thus, you’re chicken, and because of that you’re unlikely to get any
remedy.


-Todd H -

Nehmo's is either a troll,


- Nehmo -
I think I'm one, but what difference does it make? I could be a troll, a
terrorist, or a tuba player. If you want to attack, you need to go to
the merits.

-Todd H -

or the sort of person who'd do a job like
the one the OP is trying to remedy.


- Nehmo -
Now, how does that follow? If one of my guys made a hole in a customer's
roof, I certainly would make sure the customer understood that the event
would require additional resources. But I'm a reasonable contractor.
Something like that wouldn't cost the customer too much more.

-Todd H -

People post anonymously because to name themselves and the roofing
company would be making a faulty assumption that the roofing company
might not hear about it, and thus undermine their cause.


- Nehmo -
Most of the time they post anonymously because they're cowards. I know;
I've done it a few hundred times.

And isn't the defense of the anonymousness up to the one who is
anonymous? I challenged him, and he chickened again.

-Todd H -

And, for the
purpose of the discussion, does it matter who these individuals are?


- Nehmo -
Yes. It's not a hypothetical discussion. There is a real roofing company
that others may use of may have used. OP is selfishly not alerting them
and he is inhibiting potential first-hand advice.

Moreover, credibility counts. Anonymous cowards don't have much.

-Todd H -

And anyone who wouldn't try to be their parent's advocate when dealing
with the service industry (which has a not-terribly-flattering record
on giving a fair shake to older folks) is simply a ****ty son or
daughter.


- Nehmo -
Lots of sons try to compensate for years of inconsiderateness to mom by
posing as her saver from some third party. Often these kids are still
getting money form mom.


I think you're reading too much into my post. Assuming you don't
consider yourself a coward, you may have issues with your mother for
naming you "Nehmo".

Thanks, anyway.

"Nehmo" wrote

I think I'm one, but what difference does it make? I could be a troll, a
terrorist, or a tuba player. If you want to attack, you need to go to
the merits.

I think you're a roofer and one I hope never to hire.

"Nehmo" wrote in message
...
- Don T. Spam -
I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the
contract
and it called for 30,

- Nehmo -
* The wrapper paper alone isn't conclusive. They might have had a roll
of 15 on the truck.
* 15 lb isn't going to make the roof fail, but if you agreed to 30 lb,
that's what you should have got. But mom already paid, didn't she?
* You don't have the knowledge to evaluate the job when you say it
"looks okay" otherwise.
* You're going to trust these guys to correctly rectify when you already
believe they're "pretty low"?
* _Any_ wrappers left behind is sloppy.
* The lower the roof pitch, the more important the quality needs to be.

**You're posting anonymously and you're not naming roofing company;
thus, you're chicken, and because of that you're unlikely to get any
remedy. So quit trying to be mommy's hero. She'll love you anyway, and
you'll look like a weakling when don't get the adjustment.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

What a bloody idiot.

JTMcC.

...
My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the contract
and it called for 30, so I was really concerned my Mom had been ripped
off. I looked it up on the internet and confirmed it was definitely #15
(Esgard No.15 Asphalt Felt Plain).

the roof may have been done with 2 layers of 15 , arguably equal or better
than 1 layer of 30
All you have to do is ask.
Also all felt may have been 30, the wrapper may not be directly from your
home , Ask

They may have run out of 30 and finished 1 section with a piece of 15, you
could ask.
Some shingle mfgs insist on shingles being installed over 15 lb felt as
stated on the wrapper instructions
I'dbe more concerned that the shingles were nailed to code and flashing
installed and cemented properly

kickstart

- Don T. Spam -
I think you're reading too much into my post. Assuming you don't
consider yourself a coward, you may have issues with your mother for
naming you "Nehmo".
Thanks, anyway.

- Nehmo -
Sorry, but anonymous cowards have no talking room when it comes to
names.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- JTMcC -
What a bloody idiot.

- Nehmo -
“bloody”? Are you a Brit or something?


--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- Ed -
I think you're a roofer and one I hope never to hire.

- Nehmo -
I’m not contracting, nor do I currently plan to contract, any roofs. But
even when I was doing roofs, because of your self-importance, you wouldn
’t have met my qualifications for a customer.

So sorry, but it doesn’t matter what you hope never to do.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- Todd H -
I'm sure you [the roofer who did OP's mom's house] have spent a lot of
effort trying to build a
good name/reputation for your company. And, well... let's just say
that I have the ability to make a LOT of noise if this isn't
resolved."

- Nehmo -
{I wrote a sarcastic reply to that, but it wasn't funny enough, so,
unfortunately, I'll have to be serious.}
Do you honestly expect OP's mom's roofer to respond to a threat like
that?

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

- JTMcC -
What a bloody idiot.

- Nehmo -
“bloody”? Are you a Brit or something?

Doesn't matter, he's right in any dialect.

"Nehmo" writes:
- Todd H -
I'm sure you [the roofer who did OP's mom's house] have spent a lot of
effort trying to build a
good name/reputation for your company. And, well... let's just say
that I have the ability to make a LOT of noise if this isn't
resolved."

- Nehmo -
{I wrote a sarcastic reply to that, but it wasn't funny enough, so,
unfortunately, I'll have to be serious.}
Do you honestly expect OP's mom's roofer to respond to a threat like
that?

It's worked for me with various home work issues in the past.

Any business owner who works off of referrals and is any brighter than
a roofing nail does tend to care about their good name, not showing up
in the BBB database as having unresolved issues, or in google with a
long page describing in detail what a **** of a sloppy shoddy
businessman he is.

But if it's an apologist idiot who isn't bright enough to understand
the monetary value of good customer service, then, no, such a tack
doesn't tend to help.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

- wkearney99 -
Doesn't matter, he's right in any dialect.

- Nehmo -
“Bloody” as a throwaway adjective is unusual for leftpondians. JTMcC
was straining the language section of his old brain for a creative
insult, and he couldn’t get it to produce properly, so it blurted out
the foreign term. Simply “Idiot” would have concise and stronger, but
his brain doesn’t have the editing capacity to do that. Such details are
important: On the usenet, you are what you say.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"PipeDown" wrote in message
nk.net...


The housing boom will never slow down unless we all stop making babies.


"Stop making babies" becomes problamatic. Welfare state issues aside (ie,
fewer people being taxed to support more people), there are the issues of
being able to sustain a society. Negative growth rates screw up economies
(just look at most of Europe - if it weren't for the imigration, they'd be
in more trouble than they're in now). Also, look at China...they've had a
"one child" policy for how long?

Sure, I agree. But at least us assholes understand when to use of the
shift key.
--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

"Nehmo" writes:

Sure, I agree. But at least us assholes understand when to use of the
shift key.

What's that law of usenet? Something about when capitalization,
spelling, punctuation, or Hitler analogies enter the discusion, one
knows the argument has been won.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

- Todd H -
What's that law of usenet? Something about when capitalization,
spelling, punctuation, or Hitler analogies enter the discusion, one
knows the argument has been won.

- Nehmo -
Two trolls could have a contest: The first to get plonked wins. Or the
one to attract the most foul-word names could win too. And legitimate
newsgroup posters can compete to give the best answers to questions. But
outside of something like these examples, it's simplistic to reduce
complicated interactions, like usenet discussions, to wins and losses.

The “laws” you are referring to are usually humorous collections of
apparent contradictions. Example: A spelling flame will have its own
spelling error. More of them he
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/laws.html

The Hitler one, which comes is various forms, can be summarized by
Godwin's rule:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I don’t see this one as true.

--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(

There is only one thing to do get a lawyer and sue them.

Most likely they used two layers of 15# felt. (actually it's required in
Ohio because for ice protection at the eaves.) The felt is double layered
and cemented together up to a point 24in. in from the exterior walls. If
the roof slope is 2:12 up to 4:12 (low-slope) a double layer is still
required for the rest of the roof (otherwise 15# will be code).
About the only way you can tell is to look under the shingles at the edge of
the roof. You may be ably to see if it's one or two layers. (Look about
mid-roof).

" My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
found a felt paper wrapper for the 15 lbs kind. I had read the contract
and it called for 30, so I was really concerned my Mom had been ripped
off. I looked it up on the internet and confirmed it was definitely #15
(Esgard No.15 Asphalt Felt Plain).

"Dennis" wrote
Most likely they used two layers of 15# felt. (actually it's required in
Ohio because for ice protection at the eaves.) The felt is double layered
and cemented together up to a point 24in. in from the exterior walls. If
the roof slope is 2:12 up to 4:12 (low-slope) a double layer is still
required for the rest of the roof (otherwise 15# will be code).
About the only way you can tell is to look under the shingles at the edge
of
the roof. You may be ably to see if it's one or two layers. (Look about
mid-roof).

I'm licensed in seven (7) cities in NorthEast Ohio, and never heard of two
layers of felt.

Ice protection at eaves, two feet into the interior space, is a requirement.
Two layers of felt would not be allowable to substitute for ASTM D 1970.
Two layers of felt does not meet standard ASTM D 1970.

Always use required materials, otherwise you will be red tagged. In this
case, it would be an ice/water guard.

Hi Gary.
I was also state licensed in Ohio as an Inspector up to a couple of years
ago (couldn't afford the time to attend the mandatory seminars, being
out-of-state an all. Travel time killed me when I did attend.) Anyway, I
believe that Ohio is now using the IRC as the basis for its code. If you
have a copy (I don't have the current Ohio Building Code handy) it's in
section R905.2.7 of the 2003 IRC. (My *guess* is the Ohio code reads the
same in this area, but as I stated, I no longer maintain the Ohio code.)

R905.2.7 "For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal
(17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal
(33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the
following manner....." (followed by a long description of how to start the
felt, how much to lap, how to fasten, etc.)

For roofs of 4:12 or greater, a single layer is all that's required
(R905.3.3.2 "High Slope Roofs").
30# felt (along with other materials) is only required in the valleys.

There's also a reference for two layers in section R905.2.7.1 for two layers
to be cemented together for ice protection.

R905.2.7.1 "In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25
deg. or less" .. "an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of
underlayment cemented together, or of a self-adhering polymer modified
bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from
the eave's edge to a point at least 24in. inside the exterior wall line of
the building." So you can use either and the self-sealing is unquestionably
the better (and that's what I used on my house when I re-roofed.)

In both cases the requirement is for ASTM D226 Type I or ASTM D 4869 Type I
which is for standard shingle underlayment, or what's called 15# felt. ASTM
D 1970 is also referenced for the self-adhering underlayment.

You got me curious and looked them up in the ASTM standards to see what they
specified for weight. D226 Type I was 11.5lb./100sq.ft. min., D4869 was
8lb./100sq.ft. min. and D1970 wasn't specified. (Interesting, not even close
to 15lb./100sq.ft.)

Best,
Dennis

"Gary Lee" wrote in message
...
I'm licensed in seven (7) cities in NorthEast Ohio, and never heard of two
layers of felt.

Ice protection at eaves, two feet into the interior space, is a
requirement.
Two layers of felt would not be allowable to substitute for ASTM D 1970.
Two layers of felt does not meet standard ASTM D 1970.

Always use required materials, otherwise you will be red tagged. In this
case, it would be an ice/water guard.

"Dennis" wrote in message
news:Uld8f.17946$Io4.9095@trnddc06...
Hi Gary.
I was also state licensed in Ohio as an Inspector up to a couple of years
ago (couldn't afford the time to attend the mandatory seminars, being
out-of-state an all. Travel time killed me when I did attend.) Anyway, I
believe that Ohio is now using the IRC as the basis for its code. If you
have a copy (I don't have the current Ohio Building Code handy) it's in
section R905.2.7 of the 2003 IRC. (My *guess* is the Ohio code reads the
same in this area, but as I stated, I no longer maintain the Ohio code.)

R905.2.7 "For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal
(17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal
(33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the
following manner....." (followed by a long description of how to start the
felt, how much to lap, how to fasten, etc.)

For roofs of 4:12 or greater, a single layer is all that's required
(R905.3.3.2 "High Slope Roofs").
30# felt (along with other materials) is only required in the valleys.

There's also a reference for two layers in section R905.2.7.1 for two
layers
to be cemented together for ice protection.

R905.2.7.1 "In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25
deg. or less" .. "an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of
underlayment cemented together, or of a self-adhering polymer modified
bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend
from
the eave's edge to a point at least 24in. inside the exterior wall line of
the building." So you can use either and the self-sealing is
unquestionably
the better (and that's what I used on my house when I re-roofed.)

In both cases the requirement is for ASTM D226 Type I or ASTM D 4869 Type
I
which is for standard shingle underlayment, or what's called 15# felt.
ASTM
D 1970 is also referenced for the self-adhering underlayment.

You got me curious and looked them up in the ASTM standards to see what
they
specified for weight. D226 Type I was 11.5lb./100sq.ft. min., D4869 was
8lb./100sq.ft. min. and D1970 wasn't specified. (Interesting, not even
close
to 15lb./100sq.ft.)

Best,
Dennis

Dennis,

None of the cities I work in, would allow two layers cemented together, for
a substitute. How would two layers stop ice back-up? It would just back-up
under the layer closest to the sheathing, and/or back-up on top of the layer
closest to the shingles, which is perforated by the nail shanks. Granite,
it wouldn't back up between the layers. But, the damage would be the same if
there wasn't any underlayment.

I can assure you, a double layer of felt, is not acceptable as a substitute
in Northeast Ohio, in the cities we work. I know Ohio has many towns, which
doesn't require permits to be pulled, or licensing to do work, or
inspections of certain work. But, as you know, each city must adopt the
entire code they operate under as the minimum, from there it just gets
better(usually).

As a licensed & registered GC in the cities, I'm unfamiliar with State
Licensing which is required for plumbing/HVAC/electrical.

I have to take something back, when I said I "never heard of two layers
cemented together", I was mistaken. It seems to me, about 30+ years ago, I
recall troweling Karnak 19 to adhere two layers together. Had I had a clue
back then, I would've questioned how that would stop ice from backing
underneath the top/btm side of the two layers.

I agree that it sounds as if it would leak, but that's code, IRC, ARMA,
CABO, etc. One layer on 4:12 and grater, two layers fastened together on
lesser slopes. The deck is protected by the underlauyment, the edge by the
drip edge, the and two layers of shingles above that. My guess is, if it
leaks there is just gets into the overhang. Anyway, no one uses this method
any more, too messy and much more time consuming. But it's still code. Can't
say if your locals allow it or not, you could ask if you get a chance (not
that you would ever want to do it of course.)

None of the cities I work in, would allow two layers cemented together,
for
a substitute. How would two layers stop ice back-up? It would just
back-up
under the layer closest to the sheathing, and/or back-up on top of the
layer
closest to the shingles, which is perforated by the nail shanks. Granite,
it wouldn't back up between the layers. But, the damage would be the same
if
there wasn't any underlayment.

As a licensed & registered GC in the cities, I'm unfamiliar with State
Licensing which is required for plumbing/HVAC/electrical.

I was licensed by the Ohio Board of Building Standards in Building and
Mechanical (all they required) as an out-of-state, prefab/modular inspector.

I have to take something back, when I said I "never heard of two layers
cemented together", I was mistaken. It seems to me, about 30+ years ago, I
recall troweling Karnak 19 to adhere two layers together. Had I had a clue
back then, I would've questioned how that would stop ice from backing
underneath the top/btm side of the two layers.

(Walk quietly and carry a big mop!) g
Best
Dennis

"3D Peruna" wrote in message
...

"PipeDown" wrote in message
nk.net...


The housing boom will never slow down unless we all stop making babies.


"Stop making babies" becomes problamatic. Welfare state issues aside (ie,
fewer people being taxed to support more people), there are the issues of
being able to sustain a society. Negative growth rates screw up economies
(just look at most of Europe - if it weren't for the imigration, they'd be
in more trouble than they're in now). Also, look at China...they've had a
"one child" policy for how long?


This brings to mind an interesting commentary I read recently [ afraid no
cite on hand ] on the problem of economic dependence on growth in the
context of finite natural resources...