I almost got fooled on this, so I wanted to share this with others

Amazon is heavily promoting the message:
"Lowest Prices of the Season -- Prices dropped on thousands of items
in the Tools store"

Actually, this is misleading if not deceptive given that in truth the
total cost to the consumer on many tools has actually increased
substantially.

While Amazon has indeed dropped the "price" on some tools by an
average of about 3-10%, it is has more than made up for it by:

1. Eliminating free shipping over $25 on many items (including some
that I saw with shipping charges of $49.99)

2. Expiry of the earlier $25 off $200 and $50 off $250 promo codes (in
fact to add insult to injury, the $50 off $250 code that was
supposed to end 10/3/05, was cut short to end 9/12/05

For example, previously, the Bosche 3915 SCMS was $347 with free
shipping and $50 off for a total price of $297. It now is priced at
$304 (which seems like a substantial price drop) until you read that
shipping is now $49, for a total cost to the consumer of $353! or a
total price INCREASE of 22%


Now, I know that shipping costs have increased, but just be honest
about it and don't talk about price cuts when you are really
increasing total price to the consumer.

Not saying this is illegal, just misleading and
deceptive...

Ditto this!!

I just looked up the JDS Dust-Force dust collector to see if they ever
corrected the drastically inaccurate, misleading, and overstated specs
for the machine.

Not only had they not corrected them, but the price had been lowered a
total of -$30. That's right...it used to be $299, and the "New Lower
Price" advertised with a big red and yellow banner is $329.

Nice.

Another common scam, related to this, on internet sales:
Online retailers will hide their "shipping" costs and offer things at
outrageously low prices, pre-shipping, so when you use a price finder such
as shopzilla or priceline, their company comes out on top. Then they gig you
*after* you have made an order. When shopping for a shower radio, all the
online price offers were about 70 bucks for a particular model on Sony. A NY
store offered same at 50 bucks, and of course I bit on it. Somehow they had
the shipping costs disguised from the online invoice, so after I rec'd VISA
bill, there was a hidden 22 dollar shipping cost, making the item 70
dollars, more expensive than all other offers, who had either cheap or free
shipping. Shipping for that item, at most, should have been 5-6 dollars.
Live and Learn!

This may be true for some items, but the one
that I have been keeping an eye on (Bessey
24/40 clamp set) has actually come down in price
about $10. (Was $140 now $130). Of course,
it was $130 up until about 6 months ago.

Still offering free shipping on it too.

Now, when I get some kind of coupon or $off
deal to go with it, I may "pull the trigger".

Last (and only) time I got it for $99!!

Lou

Shipping and handling charges are often a racket anyway. Seversl years
ago we ordered (by phone, not on line) a replacement stirrer for a
Hitachi bread machine. The S&H charge was $6 or $7, but the part came by
US Mail in a padded bag with a 57c. stamp.

But one thing I do hate about some online vendors is that you can't find
out the shipping and handling charges until you've entered you name,
address, phone number and card number. At that point you can still bail
out, but that information has all been entered for no good reason.

Perce


On 09/15/05 01:40 pm Roger Taylor tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Another common scam, related to this, on internet sales:
Online retailers will hide their "shipping" costs and offer things at
outrageously low prices, pre-shipping, so when you use a price finder such
as shopzilla or priceline, their company comes out on top. Then they gig you
*after* you have made an order. When shopping for a shower radio, all the
online price offers were about 70 bucks for a particular model on Sony. A NY
store offered same at 50 bucks, and of course I bit on it. Somehow they had
the shipping costs disguised from the online invoice, so after I rec'd VISA
bill, there was a hidden 22 dollar shipping cost, making the item 70
dollars, more expensive than all other offers, who had either cheap or free
shipping. Shipping for that item, at most, should have been 5-6 dollars.
Live and Learn!

Perce wrote:

But one thing I do hate about some online vendors is that you can't
find
out the shipping and handling charges until you've entered you name,
address, phone number and card number.

Then screw 'em. I buy lots of supplies and tools online. If they
require that for a simple shipping quote, then something is not right.
If they have a phone number, I will call that if it is toll free; if I
have to pay for the call, forget it.

If I have to give them personal, monetary information just to find out
the final cost I always move to the next vendor.

Robert

"Roger Taylor" wrote in message
...
Another common scam, related to this, on internet sales:
Online retailers will hide their "shipping" costs and offer things at
outrageously low prices, pre-shipping, so when you use a price finder such
as shopzilla or priceline, their company comes out on top. Then they gig
you
*after* you have made an order. When shopping for a shower radio, all the
online price offers were about 70 bucks for a particular model on Sony. A
NY
store offered same at 50 bucks, and of course I bit on it. Somehow they
had
the shipping costs disguised from the online invoice, so after I rec'd
VISA
bill, there was a hidden 22 dollar shipping cost, making the item 70
dollars, more expensive than all other offers, who had either cheap or
free
shipping. Shipping for that item, at most, should have been 5-6 dollars.
Live and Learn!


You certainly got an online or emailed receipt for the total. If they later
billed you for an amount different from the receipt, you have grounds for a
refund. Attorneys general get really itchy about fraud.

Bob

"loutent" wrote in message
...
This may be true for some items, but the one
that I have been keeping an eye on (Bessey
24/40 clamp set) has actually come down in price
about $10. (Was $140 now $130). Of course,
it was $130 up until about 6 months ago.

Still offering free shipping on it too.

Now, when I get some kind of coupon or $off
deal to go with it, I may "pull the trigger".

Last (and only) time I got it for $99!!

I just got a flyer with an order from Lee Valley. They give notification
that Bessey is going to have a national promotion in October, but they
cannot quote prices yet. So watch for announcements from all the Rocklers,
Woodcrafts, Amazons, etc.

Bob

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I almost got fooled on this, so I wanted to share this with others

Amazon is heavily promoting the message:
"Lowest Prices of the Season -- Prices dropped on thousands of items
in the Tools store"

Actually, this is misleading if not deceptive given that in truth the
total cost to the consumer on many tools has actually increased
substantially.

While Amazon has indeed dropped the "price" on some tools by an
average of about 3-10%, it is has more than made up for it by:

1. Eliminating free shipping over $25 on many items (including some
that I saw with shipping charges of $49.99)

2. Expiry of the earlier $25 off $200 and $50 off $250 promo codes (in
fact to add insult to injury, the $50 off $250 code that was
supposed to end 10/3/05, was cut short to end 9/12/05

For example, previously, the Bosche 3915 SCMS was $347 with free
shipping and $50 off for a total price of $297. It now is priced at
$304 (which seems like a substantial price drop) until you read that
shipping is now $49, for a total cost to the consumer of $353! or a
total price INCREASE of 22%


Now, I know that shipping costs have increased, but just be honest
about it and don't talk about price cuts when you are really
increasing total price to the consumer.

Not saying this is illegal, just misleading and
deceptive...


Don't confuse the price of the product Amazon is selling with what the
transaction will cost you when shipping, handling, tax, are added in. From
my view as a consumer, price and cost are not the same thing.

I'm not a big fan of Amazon, but don't hold them responsible for the cost of
shipping.

Jack
--
Any tools or woods purchased or any time or money spent in the pursuit of
woodworking that employs our evolutionary advantage of opposing thumbs needs
no further justification.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Shipping and handling charges are often a racket anyway. Seversl years
ago we ordered (by phone, not on line) a replacement stirrer for a
Hitachi bread machine. The S&H charge was $6 or $7, but the part came by
US Mail in a padded bag with a 57c. stamp.

Do you think monkeys are hired to process the order and ship it and
that Hitachi gets the padded envelope for free?

On 15 Sep 2005 12:53:07 -0700, Larry Bud wrote:

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Shipping and handling charges are often a racket anyway. Seversl years
ago we ordered (by phone, not on line) a replacement stirrer for a
Hitachi bread machine. The S&H charge was $6 or $7, but the part came by
US Mail in a padded bag with a 57c. stamp.

Do you think monkeys are hired to process the order and ship it and
that Hitachi gets the padded envelope for free?

I sell things on eBay and other auction sites from time to time, and my
minimum shipping cost is $1.00 - yes, that might be just putting the
item into a hard paper envelope and driving it down to the post office
with a 37 cent stamp, but it's shipping _and_ handling. It's hardly a
racket - you're free to choose not to buy, after all.

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Shipping and handling charges are often a racket anyway. Seversl years
ago we ordered (by phone, not on line) a replacement stirrer for a
Hitachi bread machine. The S&H charge was $6 or $7, but the part came by
US Mail in a padded bag with a 57c. stamp.

Do you think monkeys are hired to process the order and ship it and
that Hitachi gets the padded envelope for free?


Truth is, YES most of them are monkeys... And secondly, all the handling and
stuff is part of your normal markup and cost of doing business...
When I get a request for quote to a customer, it cost me time and money to
prepare it, and nothing tells me I will get the job, and there is raerely a
cost associated to the potential customer for it.. However that time/money
and effort is calculated into my price, and not added as a handling/quoting
charge.
They choose to be an online business, they know they will need to factor in
the labor fees for the people/materials to prepare/pack and ship the
items... However as someone said before, they try to make it look like they
are giving you a sweet deal, and then they nail you on the handling fees
(which is thier real profit/markup), which they could have easily put in the
price, but that would make them look uncompetitive to the search engines..


But I agree, that buying stuff, an not checking what the TOTAL cost you will
be paying, is outright ridiculous... Everything plays a roll in your final
price.. Shipping, handling, taxes, and any duties/brokerage if it is an
international order like for canadians... I rarely continue an online
checkout if I can't get a shipping/handling charge amount before I enter my
personal info. There is too much competition out there to bother dealing
with the ridicuous systems out there...

For large orders, I will frequently place orders online from the
neighbouring province, sincely because I can save an extra 7% provincial
tax, which they don't have to charge me...And for orders accross the border,
I will frequently insist on USPS instead of UPs, simply because UPS insists
on charging some criminal brokerage fees, which Fedex and USPS include in
thier shipping fees. Even my ISP is in a different province, and it saves
me an extra $5/month... hey why not save it, if it is not causing me any
inconvenience to do so.

L8r..

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:08:13 -0400, MTLnews wrote:

However as someone said before, they try to make it look like they
are giving you a sweet deal, and then they nail you on the handling fees
(which is thier real profit/markup), which they could have easily put in the
price, but that would make them look uncompetitive to the search engines..

Hm, you need a better search engine, I think. froogle and pricewatch
both sort by _shipped_ price, not just retail item price.

But I agree, that buying stuff, an not checking what the TOTAL cost you will
be paying, is outright ridiculous... Everything plays a roll in your final
price.. Shipping, handling, taxes, and any duties/brokerage if it is an
international order like for canadians... I rarely continue an online
checkout if I can't get a shipping/handling charge amount before I enter my
personal info.

If that includes your zip code, then you're being a bit unfair there, I
think.

On 09/15/05 03:55 pm Dave Hinz tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Shipping and handling charges are often a racket anyway. Several years
ago we ordered (by phone, not on line) a replacement stirrer for a
Hitachi bread machine. The S&H charge was $6 or $7, but the part came by
US Mail in a padded bag with a 57c. stamp.

Do you think monkeys are hired to process the order and ship it and
that Hitachi gets the padded envelope for free?

I sell things on eBay and other auction sites from time to time, and my
minimum shipping cost is $1.00 - yes, that might be just putting the
item into a hard paper envelope and driving it down to the post office
with a 37 cent stamp, but it's shipping _and_ handling. It's hardly a
racket - you're free to choose not to buy, after all.

When they said that S&H was $6 or $7, we assumed that it would come by
UPS or some other faster and more expensive carrier than USPS. I've paid
that much shipping (or less) for much larger, heavier items that *have*
come by UPS or FedEx.

Perce

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:33:08 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 09/15/05 03:55 pm Dave Hinz tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

(I love your attribution line...)

I sell things on eBay and other auction sites from time to time, and my
minimum shipping cost is $1.00 - yes, that might be just putting the
item into a hard paper envelope and driving it down to the post office
with a 37 cent stamp, but it's shipping _and_ handling. It's hardly a
racket - you're free to choose not to buy, after all.

When they said that S&H was $6 or $7, we assumed that it would come by
UPS or some other faster and more expensive carrier than USPS. I've paid
that much shipping (or less) for much larger, heavier items that *have*
come by UPS or FedEx.

Well, assuming gets you what you deserve, doesn't it? I welcome
questions, myself, but I'm hardly in business or anything, I'm just
selling stuff from one hobby to finance other hobby purchases. But, if
a vendor won't tell you who they use to ship for that type of item?
Leave 'em alone.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Ditto this!!

I just looked up the JDS Dust-Force dust collector to see if they ever
corrected the drastically inaccurate, misleading, and overstated specs
for the machine.

Not only had they not corrected them, but the price had been lowered a
total of -$30. That's right...it used to be $299, and the "New Lower
Price" advertised with a big red and yellow banner is $329.

Nice.


Another 'discounted' item, even has a 'new low price' label..

The Delta 22-580 13" planer

Two days ago it was $349.99 w/ free shipping
Now, $368.99 + 49 S/H

The local Rockler's has it for $379 and they having an anniversary sale
this weekend w/10% off power tools.

Guess where I'm getting mine Saturday

Ron

Dave Hinz wrote in
:

If that includes your zip code, then you're being a bit unfair there,
I think.


It depends .. some companies (LV comes to mind ;-) ) charge either a
flat rate, or an incremental rate based on order total rather than by
zip.

Others I've seen (and don't remember off the top of my head) will allow
you to get to the shipping rates prior to entering any *financial*
information -- which is how I interpreted the OP's post (yeah, I know,
not *exactly* what the OP said ...)

Regardless, I won't do business with anyone I have to give information
to, to find s/h data (other than at most, zip code) ... It's just not
needed.

Personally, I generally don't use mail/web/phone orders to get a "deal"
-- usually, by the time you factor in the s/h, any savings are lost.
The real benefit to me for m/w/p is better selection. LV doesn't have a
store in PDX, so I'm happy to do business with them - and I've used all
three modes. I've done other business with, eg, Amazon, because they had
something I couldn't find locally either at all, or easily enough.

But I won't do business with companies that make finding s/h a chore.

--
Regards,

JT
Speaking only for myself....

Ron wrote:
Another 'discounted' item, even has a 'new low price' label..

The Delta 22-580 13" planer

Two days ago it was $349.99 w/ free shipping
Now, $368.99 + 49 S/H

The local Rockler's has it for $379 and they having an anniversary sale
this weekend w/10% off power tools.

Guess where I'm getting mine Saturday



But then you won't get the special Amazon cardboard box. They put a lot of work
into making it look so beat up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

In article .net,
BillyBob wrote:

"loutent" wrote in message
...
This may be true for some items, but the one
that I have been keeping an eye on (Bessey
24/40 clamp set) has actually come down in price
about $10. (Was $140 now $130). Of course,
it was $130 up until about 6 months ago.

Still offering free shipping on it too.

Now, when I get some kind of coupon or $off
deal to go with it, I may "pull the trigger".

Last (and only) time I got it for $99!!

I just got a flyer with an order from Lee Valley. They give notification
that Bessey is going to have a national promotion in October, but they
cannot quote prices yet. So watch for announcements from all the Rocklers,
Woodcrafts, Amazons, etc.

Bob


Thanks for that Bob,

I am in no big hurry to add to my (meager)
Bessey collection!

Lou

Man do I feel left out of this thread... maybe I have been self
employed too damn long, responsible for myself and my business.

The cost of goods in the consumer's eyes should be the cost to the
door. Taxes, shipping, handling, notifications, shipping method, and
anything else that I ALWAYS ask for is revealed when questioned. That
is being responsible with your money. It is your responsibility to
be careful, prudent, and wise with your money. Period.

Amazon is not doing anything you couldn't eventually figure out... I
mean you did, right? Was it because it was there in front of you?

If you don't like the answers, if you don't like the method of
presentation, or if you don't like the way you are treated, why in the
hell would you buy from one of these companies
and their affiliates?

Life is too short. Complaining will do absolutely nothing. Move on.
Next vendor, please.

Robert

wrote:
If you don't like the answers, if you don't like the method of
presentation, or if you don't like the way you are treated, why in the
hell would you buy from one of these companies
and their affiliates?

Life is too short. Complaining will do absolutely nothing. Move on.
Next vendor, please.


Uh... I think you miss the point. I know these conversations will certainly
have a bearing on where I buy my next tool. Complaining to the company will do
no good. Complaining to the newsgroup will help *someone*. Hopefully before
they get screwed.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:36:09 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

Ron wrote:
Another 'discounted' item, even has a 'new low price' label..

The Delta 22-580 13" planer

Two days ago it was $349.99 w/ free shipping
Now, $368.99 + 49 S/H

The local Rockler's has it for $379 and they having an anniversary sale
this weekend w/10% off power tools.

Guess where I'm getting mine Saturday



But then you won't get the special Amazon cardboard box. They put a lot of work
into making it look so beat up.

I thought UPS did that for free? ;-)




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"John Flatley" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
I almost got fooled on this, so I wanted to share this with others

Amazon is heavily promoting the message:
"Lowest Prices of the Season -- Prices dropped on thousands of items
in the Tools store"

Actually, this is misleading if not deceptive given that in truth the
total cost to the consumer on many tools has actually increased
substantially.

While Amazon has indeed dropped the "price" on some tools by an
average of about 3-10%, it is has more than made up for it by:

1. Eliminating free shipping over $25 on many items (including some
that I saw with shipping charges of $49.99)

2. Expiry of the earlier $25 off $200 and $50 off $250 promo codes (in
fact to add insult to injury, the $50 off $250 code that was
supposed to end 10/3/05, was cut short to end 9/12/05

For example, previously, the Bosche 3915 SCMS was $347 with free
shipping and $50 off for a total price of $297. It now is priced at
$304 (which seems like a substantial price drop) until you read that
shipping is now $49, for a total cost to the consumer of $353! or a
total price INCREASE of 22%


Now, I know that shipping costs have increased, but just be honest
about it and don't talk about price cuts when you are really
increasing total price to the consumer.

Not saying this is illegal, just misleading and
deceptive...


Don't confuse the price of the product Amazon is selling with what the
transaction will cost you when shipping, handling, tax, are added in. From
my view as a consumer, price and cost are not the same thing.

I'm not a big fan of Amazon, but don't hold them responsible for the cost of
shipping.

Jack
--
Any tools or woods purchased or any time or money spent in the pursuit of
woodworking that employs our evolutionary advantage of opposing thumbs needs
no further justification.

I think you totally missed my point. I am not holding them responsible
for anything -- they can say what they want and charge what they want
(as long as they are not violating some law).

I was just pointing out that their marketing was misleading if not
deceptive (though almost certainly not illegal) -- goal was to inform
others and perhaps indirectly influence Amazon to avoid such
misleading statements.

Jeff

writes:
Amazon is not doing anything you couldn't eventually figure out... I
mean you did, right? Was it because it was there in front of you?

If you don't like the answers, if you don't like the method of
presentation, or if you don't like the way you are treated, why in the
hell would you buy from one of these companies
and their affiliates?

Life is too short. Complaining will do absolutely nothing. Move on.
Next vendor, please.

Robert

I think you missed the point -- I did figure it out.
However, I wanted to achieve two goals with this post:
1. Inform others who might be misled
2. Indirectly influence Amazon if such posts cause enough potential
buyers to either look otherwise or to speak up themselves.

As you say, "Life is too short" to argue about this... If you disagree
with my thinking, the as you say "Move on. Next" post "please".

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:23:26 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

wrote:
If you don't like the answers, if you don't like the method of
presentation, or if you don't like the way you are treated, why in the
hell would you buy from one of these companies
and their affiliates?

Life is too short. Complaining will do absolutely nothing. Move on.
Next vendor, please.


Uh... I think you miss the point. I know these conversations will certainly
have a bearing on where I buy my next tool. Complaining to the company will do
no good. Complaining to the newsgroup will help *someone*. Hopefully before
they get screwed.

Looks like you are both saying the same thing. The difference is that by
perhaps alerting some people who might not have looked so closely, or who
had not been tracking prices previously, the OP is actually helping send a
message to the vendor by amplifying a single voice to a broader audience of
potential buyers. I went back and checked my records, my last purchase
from Amazon or Tool Crib of the Amazon was in April, 2003. I really
haven't found prices to be all that much better than other on-line,
dedicated woodworking sources like Woodworkers Supply or Lee Valley or
others. While I understand that shipping prices are going to rise, trying
to hide those changes is not really very up-front with customers.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Mark & Juanita wrote:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:23:26 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

wrote:
If you don't like the answers, if you don't like the method of
presentation, or if you don't like the way you are treated, why in
the hell would you buy from one of these companies
and their affiliates?

Life is too short. Complaining will do absolutely nothing. Move
on. Next vendor, please.


Uh... I think you miss the point. I know these conversations will
certainly have a bearing on where I buy my next tool. Complaining to
the company will do no good. Complaining to the newsgroup will help
*someone*. Hopefully before they get screwed.

Looks like you are both saying the same thing. The difference is
that by
perhaps alerting some people who might not have looked so closely, or
who had not been tracking prices previously, the OP is actually
helping send a message to the vendor by amplifying a single voice to a
broader audience of potential buyers. I went back and checked my
records, my last purchase from Amazon or Tool Crib of the Amazon was
in April, 2003. I really haven't found prices to be all that much
better than other on-line, dedicated woodworking sources like
Woodworkers Supply or Lee Valley or others. While I understand that
shipping prices are going to rise, trying to hide those changes is not
really very up-front with customers.

They are deceptive in other ways. If you sell a book through them they
charge the customer ~$3.50 for shipping, but only pass along ~$2.60 to
you to cover shipping costs. This is in addition to their listing fee and
percentage of the sale. Unless you have sold through them And bought from
private sellers through them, this 'fee' is completely hidden. I
complained about this to them and did get a response, but it was of the
humma, humma variety.





+----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------+


If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough


+----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------+

Roger Taylor wrote:
Another common scam, related to this, on internet sales:
Online retailers will hide their "shipping" costs and offer things at
outrageously low prices, pre-shipping, so when you use a price finder such
as shopzilla or priceline, their company comes out on top. Then they gig you
*after* you have made an order. When shopping for a shower radio, all the
online price offers were about 70 bucks for a particular model on Sony. A NY
store offered same at 50 bucks, and of course I bit on it. Somehow they had
the shipping costs disguised from the online invoice, so after I rec'd VISA
bill, there was a hidden 22 dollar shipping cost, making the item 70
dollars, more expensive than all other offers, who had either cheap or free
shipping. Shipping for that item, at most, should have been 5-6 dollars.
Live and Learn!

CAVEAT EMPTOR! Shipping AND handling/postage AND packaging.
Apparently these places use real high quality, space-age cardboard
boxes and the "handlers/packers" earn about $45/hour.

FoggyTown

There's this twonk on ebay who sells nothing but electronic vernier
calipers. He starts the bidding at .01 with no reserve and you may be
tempted to bid - until you note that his p&p is =A310! - this for an item
which may weigh 3 or 4 oz soaking wet. This suggests that the item
isn't worth more than a fiver to begin with. So (and he may be
counting on this) if you don't read carefully you may bid over ,01 for
the item and end up paying even MORE.

Have to admire his chutzpah

FoggyTown

Let's face it. The ONLY info required to get a quote for the TOTAL
price of anything should be a zip code. (Your name and address is
hardly likely to influence the price, is it.) BUT once you enter even
some basic personal info the seller can add it to his growing list of
names which he can onsell to some oter enterprise and THAT, children,
is why you get half a forest of junk crap dropped through your mailbox
every day.

FoggyTown

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
Shipping and handling charges are often a racket anyway. Seversl years
ago we ordered (by phone, not on line) a replacement stirrer for a
Hitachi bread machine. The S&H charge was $6 or $7, but the part came by
US Mail in a padded bag with a 57c. stamp.

But one thing I do hate about some online vendors is that you can't find
out the shipping and handling charges until you've entered you name,
address, phone number and card number. At that point you can still bail
out, but that information has all been entered for no good reason.

If they are using actual shipping charges, it would seem they would need
to know your address to calculate them!

Perce


On 09/15/05 01:40 pm Roger Taylor tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Another common scam, related to this, on internet sales:
Online retailers will hide their "shipping" costs and offer things at
outrageously low prices, pre-shipping, so when you use a price finder
such as shopzilla or priceline, their company comes out on top. Then
they gig you *after* you have made an order. When shopping for a
shower radio, all the online price offers were about 70 bucks for a
particular model on Sony. A NY store offered same at 50 bucks, and of
course I bit on it. Somehow they had the shipping costs disguised
from the online invoice, so after I rec'd VISA bill, there was a
hidden 22 dollar shipping cost, making the item 70 dollars, more
expensive than all other offers, who had either cheap or free
shipping. Shipping for that item, at most, should have been 5-6 dollars.
Live and Learn!

I've never learned anything from someone who agreed with me.
"blueman" wrote in message
...
"John Flatley" writes:
"blueman" wrote in message
...
I almost got fooled on this, so I wanted to share this with others

Amazon is heavily promoting the message:
"Lowest Prices of the Season -- Prices dropped on thousands of items
in the Tools store"

Actually, this is misleading if not deceptive given that in truth the
total cost to the consumer on many tools has actually increased
substantially.

While Amazon has indeed dropped the "price" on some tools by an
average of about 3-10%, it is has more than made up for it by:

1. Eliminating free shipping over $25 on many items (including some
that I saw with shipping charges of $49.99)

2. Expiry of the earlier $25 off $200 and $50 off $250 promo codes (in
fact to add insult to injury, the $50 off $250 code that was
supposed to end 10/3/05, was cut short to end 9/12/05

For example, previously, the Bosche 3915 SCMS was $347 with free
shipping and $50 off for a total price of $297. It now is priced at
$304 (which seems like a substantial price drop) until you read that
shipping is now $49, for a total cost to the consumer of $353! or a
total price INCREASE of 22%


Now, I know that shipping costs have increased, but just be honest
about it and don't talk about price cuts when you are really
increasing total price to the consumer.

Not saying this is illegal, just misleading and
deceptive...


Don't confuse the price of the product Amazon is selling with what the
transaction will cost you when shipping, handling, tax, are added in.
From
my view as a consumer, price and cost are not the same thing.

I'm not a big fan of Amazon, but don't hold them responsible for the
cost of
shipping.

Jack
--
Any tools or woods purchased or any time or money spent in the pursuit
of
woodworking that employs our evolutionary advantage of opposing thumbs
needs
no further justification.

I think you totally missed my point. I am not holding them responsible
for anything -- they can say what they want and charge what they want
(as long as they are not violating some law).

I was just pointing out that their marketing was misleading if not
deceptive (though almost certainly not illegal) -- goal was to inform
others and perhaps indirectly influence Amazon to avoid such
misleading statements.

Jeff

Thanks for your response. I think we probably agree, but I may not have
made my point clear. Clearly any decision on where to buy a tool or
anything, should be based on the total cost to you at the location where you
want it and that total cost is not just on the price of the product.

When we consumers consider a purchasing decision, we must weigh Internet
purchasing tax-free with shipping and handling and local delivery charges
added versus local purchase without shipping and handling to sales tax
added. Then we factor in connivance, after sales service and other key but
sometimes forgotten charges. Then we can determine the total cost. If we
elect not to do these things, then Pogo may have been right when he said,
"we have met the enemy and they is us."

The central point you make, that we should all be astute consumers is very
valuable. I was afraid that some of the responses were just Amazon/Tool
Crib bashing.

Local impact: Our refrigerator is on its way out. We are shopping for a
new one. Surprise! The sell price does not include delivery and
installation. No dealer has yet told me about those charges until I asked.

Jack

Thanks for the warning.

For the "life is too short," "buy somewhere else" guys, please try to
take a step back, and look at your own advice. If "life is too short,"
why must consumers have to waste such valuable time *the first time*
ferreting out information purposely made as obscure and misleading as
possible in order to determine that you should "buy somewhere else" the
next time?
OK, now we know what Amazon.com is doing. That's one out of how many
more to go?

On 16 Sep 2005 03:15:56 -0700, foggytown wrote:
There's this twonk on ebay who sells nothing but electronic vernier
calipers. He starts the bidding at .01 with no reserve and you may be
tempted to bid - until you note that his p&p is ?10! - this for an item
which may weigh 3 or 4 oz soaking wet. This suggests that the item
isn't worth more than a fiver to begin with.

The weight determines value?

So (and he may be
counting on this) if you don't read carefully you may bid over ,01 for
the item and end up paying even MORE.

Sounds like a classic case of padding the S&H to evade auction costs
paid to eBay. Have you notified them of the guy's activities? If not,
why complain about it without doing something about it?

Have to admire his chutzpah

Why, so the rest of us eBayers can subsidize his scam? Sorry, no
admiration here.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:36:09 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

Ron wrote:
Another 'discounted' item, even has a 'new low price' label..

The Delta 22-580 13" planer

Two days ago it was $349.99 w/ free shipping
Now, $368.99 + 49 S/H

The local Rockler's has it for $379 and they having an anniversary sale
this weekend w/10% off power tools.

Guess where I'm getting mine Saturday



But then you won't get the special Amazon cardboard box. They put a lot
of work
into making it look so beat up.

I thought UPS did that for free? ;-)



Actually they charge you for that service. Than claim it was like that
when they got it.


--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

"foggytown" wrote in message
ups.com...
Let's face it. The ONLY info required to get a quote for the TOTAL
price of anything should be a zip code. (Your name and address is
hardly likely to influence the price, is it.) BUT once you enter even
some basic personal info the seller can add it to his growing list of
names which he can onsell to some oter enterprise and THAT, children,
is why you get half a forest of junk crap dropped through your mailbox
every day.

FoggyTown


Zip code is all that is required. If you look at the rate charts that UPS,
FedEx and others distribute for web type shopping carts, all they require is
the zip.

If you really need to use a particular vendor that pulls this crap, just put
in bogus info and make sure the zip is correct.


--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

"BillyBob" wrote in
link.net:

So watch for announcements
from all the Rocklers, Woodcrafts, Amazons, etc.

And then order from Lee Valley? After all, they are the one doing
the consumer-friendly thing of alerting you in advance, should they
not get the benefit of your patronage in return?

John

Mark & Juanita writes:

While I understand that shipping prices are going to rise, trying
to hide those changes is not really very up-front with customers.

I wonder if this is part of the plan to get everyone purchase Amazon
Prime memberships. Not only are tools taking longer to ship, so are
books. I just placed an order for books with free shipping, and it
will take 3 weeks for them to arrive.

Step 1) Offer Amazon Prime
Step 2) Delay Shipping

Add
*) Remove rebates
*) Increase prices
and that's a sure way to increase profits.

This increase in tool prices aren't done in a vacuum. The current
Amazon policy is that if you find a brick & mortar store or catalog
with a lower price, they will match it plus 10%.
(i.e. this does not apply to a web site).

I'm wondering if they are beefing up their quarter's profits, so
'round Christmas time, they can drop prices again.

I was surprised that those books I ordered weren't as low cost as they
used to be.

I ordered 3 PB books w/$7 list price, and they only knocked the price
done a total of $1.40 off list.



--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
When they said that S&H was $6 or $7, we assumed that it would come by
UPS or some other faster and more expensive carrier than USPS. I've paid
that much shipping (or less) for much larger, heavier items that *have*
come by UPS or FedEx.

It's frustrating when you get charged $13 to ship something via UPS and
then it doesn't make it to your door for nearly 2 weeks. Is there
anywhere in the continental US that should take a 3 pound package that
long to get to you?

JP

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:21:21 GMT, blueman wrote:

I almost got fooled on this, so I wanted to share this with others

Amazon is heavily promoting the message:
"Lowest Prices of the Season -- Prices dropped on thousands of items
in the Tools store"

Actually, this is misleading if not deceptive given that in truth the
total cost to the consumer on many tools has actually increased
substantially.

While Amazon has indeed dropped the "price" on some tools by an
average of about 3-10%, it is has more than made up for it by:

1. Eliminating free shipping over $25 on many items (including some
that I saw with shipping charges of $49.99)

2. Expiry of the earlier $25 off $200 and $50 off $250 promo codes (in
fact to add insult to injury, the $50 off $250 code that was
supposed to end 10/3/05, was cut short to end 9/12/05

For example, previously, the Bosche 3915 SCMS was $347 with free
shipping and $50 off for a total price of $297. It now is priced at
$304 (which seems like a substantial price drop) until you read that
shipping is now $49, for a total cost to the consumer of $353! or a
total price INCREASE of 22%


Now, I know that shipping costs have increased, but just be honest
about it and don't talk about price cuts when you are really
increasing total price to the consumer.

Not saying this is illegal, just misleading and
deceptive...

Many years ago, the FTC really frowned on misleading ads. I worked for
Goodyear in one of their Service Stores. In addition to tires and auto
service, we also sold electronics and appliances.

The rule then was that to call anything on sale, the price had to be
at least 10% lower than the average selling price the previous 30
days. You also had to have on hand enough inventory to cover expected
sales. For tires, it was two sets in each size.

Standing rule for store managers: if Sears had an ad for a low ball
appliance, go to the Sears store and buy it. They only had one and it
was a piece of crap. They really didn't want to sell it. It was just a
draw so they could sell you up. It was no big secret though. We had
them load it in the Goodyear truck.

We would then place it on our floor to compare the quality of our
brand (whatever it was) against Sears. Sears also got a lot of
complaints for not having the advertised special in stock.

I wonder if this is part of the plan to get everyone purchase Amazon
Prime memberships.

Well, at least one item I just checked (Performax 16/32) is suddenly NOT
eligible for Prime. It was before its price increased. I wonder what other
products are no longer eligible for free shipping of any sort.

I joined Prime when it was first offered. At the time, I thought it made sense
for me, given my purchase history and the stuff I was thinking about buying. It
has certainly paid for itself by now (I've bought a lot of books, and some
cookware, and taken good advantage of the free 2-day shipping), so if I can't
use it for the rest of the year, I won't be terribly upset. But I won't renew
my membership if the power tools on my wish list remain ineligible.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at remove eclipse dot net