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Old August 12th 03, 02:37 AM
ToolMiser
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

Keep up with the internet and magazine article reading. Have you considered
any used tools? If you are patient, you may sometime come up with some nice
machinery at a fair price. Try estate sales, auctions, newspaper ads, garages
sales. I've upgraded a quite a few times using these sources. Plus when you
buy used, you can get your money back out when you sell. Also I hope you
aren't going to buy all this equipment at one time. You will learn better
care, techniques, when you spread out your purchases. Even with new equipment,
feel free to wait for a sale, or rebate. Hope this helps!

  #2   Report Post  
Old August 12th 03, 02:58 AM
GTO69RA4
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

I had the attitude a couple years ago that all these folks who were down on
cheap and/or imported tools were a bunch of out-of-touch snobs. Then I actually
bought some. At least with the experiences I had, I would never, ever again buy
anything slightly off-brand or cheaply made. I lost a lot of money and ended up
with pretty scrap metal.

Grizzly is as far off the beaten path as I'd go, and I wouldn't buy their
cheapest stuff. The bench grinder I got from HF was useless.

I only buy used qualilty tools these days. I've been getting DeWalt 18V drills
for $25-35 off eBay and table saws for free around here. It's amazing what you
can find.

GTO(John)



I'm a potential newbie woodworker, trying to ascertain the likely cost of
getting into this. I'm persuaded by all the advice on this newgroup that
it's worth springing for a good table saw first and foremost. But I don't
have a sense of when it's worthwhile paying more for better (brand?) for
other types of equipment. I check the catalogs and, as you all know, there
is a considerable spread in price for a given type of equipment. Obviously,
I want to be able to get good results so I don't become frustrated and
disillusioned with the hobby. On the other hand, I really want to minimize
the expense. I'm probably most likely to be doing cabinets, bookshelves,
desks, furniture types of things.

So, any advice on the following equipment would be appreciated. (Apologies
if some of my comments seem naive, but don't hesitate to correct me.)

DRILL PRESS -- It seems to me that as long as the 'table' can be set square
(or at a set angle), and locked tight, anything else is a matter of
convenience. So, I'm thinking like a 8" 5-speed Harbor Freight (Central
Machinery) or Grizzly for $70-$80. Are there any compelling/quality issues
that should require me to spend more? If so, what?

BELT SANDER -- Same rationale. I would think there isn't a lot of reason
not to get an inexpensive unit. E.g., a combo 6" disc/36" belt for about
$60 from Harbor Freight. Same question: Are there any compelling/quality
issues that should require me to spend more? If so, what?

JOINTER -- 6" with a square fence that locks well. Popular Woodworking
gave the Grizzly model 1182HW ($305) an Editors Choice award. Yet this is
pretty much low-end of the price range (except for benchtop models). Is
there any reason to pay for more than this?

ROUTER -- I don't understand the ins and outs of routers, but I gather it's
worth buying a better unit, though I couldn't tell you why. What are the
minimum capabilities I should look for? What brands are adequate for my
purpose and what likely price range?

PLANER -- (sometime down the road perhaps) It seems like the wisdom is
to buy something that produces smooth results with blades that aren't too
hard to change. Probably a 12" portable model. Price range perhaps $300
for a decent one. Sound right?

DUST COLLECTION -- a very early investment. I've done quite a bit of
reading on this so I think I understand the cost/quality issues.

Many thanks.

  #3   Report Post  
Old August 12th 03, 03:57 AM
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?


"BobAtVandy" wrote in message
...
I'm a potential newbie woodworker, trying to ascertain the likely cost of
getting into this.


You will get plenty of answers and opinions. Consider used tools if you can
find a decent deal. Don't buy cheap junk. It is just not worth the hassle.
These are tools that can last many years and will make your life simpler.

You don't have to drop $10,000 the first time out; but you easily can. Buy
what you need as you need it. Consider hand tools over power tools to save
money also. Yes, there truly is a difference in the quality of the big names
compared to Harbor Freight and the close out stores.



DRILL PRESS -- It seems to me that as long as the 'table' can be set

square
(or at a set angle), and locked tight, anything else is a matter of
convenience. So, I'm thinking like a 8" 5-speed Harbor Freight (Central
Machinery) or Grizzly for $70-$80. Are there any compelling/quality

issues
that should require me to spend more? If so, what?


8" is a bit small. Go for a 10" or 12". Cheap tools are cheap tools. Even
a simple drill press. How easy does it adjust? Do you turn a crank to
raise and lower the table or do it by hand and hope to get a close
adjustment? How good is the chuck? Is there a lot of runout on the chuck
making it difficult to make an accurate hole? How easily is the stop set to
get the hole depth right? You don't want the bit to slip in a cheap chuck
either.


BELT SANDER -- Same rationale. I would think there isn't a lot of reason
not to get an inexpensive unit. E.g., a combo 6" disc/36" belt for about
$60 from Harbor Freight. Same question: Are there any compelling/quality
issues that should require me to spend more? If so, what?


What about the table to disc alignment? You do want a perfect 90 degrees,
and you want some adjustability.



ROUTER -- I don't understand the ins and outs of routers, but I gather

it's
worth buying a better unit, though I couldn't tell you why. What are the
minimum capabilities I should look for? What brands are adequate for my
purpose and what likely price range?


Smoothness of the motor, how it feels in your hands and how easily it will
adjust. Take a look at www.patwarner.com for router info.



PLANER -- (sometime down the road perhaps)


I use my planer a lot and don't have a jointer yet. It is the easiest way
to get the wood the thickness I want. You can use hand planes also.




  #4   Report Post  
Old August 12th 03, 04:19 AM
Tom Kohlman
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

Ditto

Most of us have been down the road of "cheap", usually because that's all we
could afford and the Sear's ad came every Sunday with the paper. But having
tossed too many tools with very little hours on them, we learned.

But some thoughts just the same...

Drill press is nice to own but not necessary...whatever you buy will most
likely come from the same factory in the far east...I loved my old Delta
16-900 and hate it's big sister that replaced it.

Belt sander is also nice to have but not necessary...I had an AMT model with
9" disc and 6x48 belt that worked great. I think the 48" belt is better
since the underlying bed is longer. Watch for belt availability (check the
catalogues to see what is a "common" belt").

Jointer...don't know about the Grizzly but at the cheaper end I'm guessing
there is probably not much difference between them and Delta or Jet...I have
the Delta and was totally disappointed with certain aspects of the design
that made set-up a total PITA but it works ok...able to adjust to keep the
fence square to the table and that is the important part.

Router...buy a good one...lesson learned the hard way by me (2 Crapsman in
the trash)...I got a PC 690 and was amazed at the difference when I hit the
trigger...good ones have 1/4" and 1/2" collets (spend the bucks for bits for
the latter if you can) and now come in kits that lets you interchange a
plunge base a with fixed base...

Good luck!!!


"GTO69RA4" wrote in message
...
I had the attitude a couple years ago that all these folks who were down

on
cheap and/or imported tools were a bunch of out-of-touch snobs. Then I

actually
bought some. At least with the experiences I had, I would never, ever

again buy
anything slightly off-brand or cheaply made. I lost a lot of money and

ended up
with pretty scrap metal.

Grizzly is as far off the beaten path as I'd go, and I wouldn't buy their
cheapest stuff. The bench grinder I got from HF was useless.

I only buy used qualilty tools these days. I've been getting DeWalt 18V

drills
for $25-35 off eBay and table saws for free around here. It's amazing what

you
can find.

GTO(John)



I'm a potential newbie woodworker, trying to ascertain the likely cost of
getting into this. I'm persuaded by all the advice on this newgroup that
it's worth springing for a good table saw first and foremost. But I

don't
have a sense of when it's worthwhile paying more for better (brand?) for
other types of equipment. I check the catalogs and, as you all know,

there
is a considerable spread in price for a given type of equipment.

Obviously,
I want to be able to get good results so I don't become frustrated and
disillusioned with the hobby. On the other hand, I really want to

minimize
the expense. I'm probably most likely to be doing cabinets,

bookshelves,
desks, furniture types of things.

So, any advice on the following equipment would be appreciated.

(Apologies
if some of my comments seem naive, but don't hesitate to correct me.)

DRILL PRESS -- It seems to me that as long as the 'table' can be set

square
(or at a set angle), and locked tight, anything else is a matter of
convenience. So, I'm thinking like a 8" 5-speed Harbor Freight

(Central
Machinery) or Grizzly for $70-$80. Are there any compelling/quality

issues
that should require me to spend more? If so, what?

BELT SANDER -- Same rationale. I would think there isn't a lot of reason
not to get an inexpensive unit. E.g., a combo 6" disc/36" belt for about
$60 from Harbor Freight. Same question: Are there any

compelling/quality
issues that should require me to spend more? If so, what?

JOINTER -- 6" with a square fence that locks well. Popular Woodworking
gave the Grizzly model 1182HW ($305) an Editors Choice award. Yet this

is
pretty much low-end of the price range (except for benchtop models). Is
there any reason to pay for more than this?

ROUTER -- I don't understand the ins and outs of routers, but I gather

it's
worth buying a better unit, though I couldn't tell you why. What are the
minimum capabilities I should look for? What brands are adequate for my
purpose and what likely price range?

PLANER -- (sometime down the road perhaps) It seems like the wisdom

is
to buy something that produces smooth results with blades that aren't too
hard to change. Probably a 12" portable model. Price range perhaps $300
for a decent one. Sound right?

DUST COLLECTION -- a very early investment. I've done quite a bit of
reading on this so I think I understand the cost/quality issues.

Many thanks.



  #5   Report Post  
Old August 12th 03, 04:30 AM
Lew Hodgett
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?


"BobAtVandy" writes:

I'm a potential newbie woodworker, trying to ascertain the likely cost of
getting into this.


More than you want to spend.G

Isn't that always the case?

If money spent for tools is a primary issue, find another hobby.

I'm persuaded by all the advice on this newgroup that
it's worth springing for a good table saw first and foremost. But I don't
have a sense of when it's worthwhile paying more for better (brand?) for
other types of equipment. I check the catalogs and, as you all know,

there
is a considerable spread in price for a given type of equipment.


Who was it that said, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure"?

Obviously,
I want to be able to get good results so I don't become frustrated and
disillusioned with the hobby. On the other hand, I really want to

minimize
the expense. I'm probably most likely to be doing cabinets,

bookshelves,
desks, furniture types of things.


What you are considering building is not trivial.

You will need good equipment to get good results.

So, any advice on the following equipment would be appreciated.

(Apologies
if some of my comments seem naive, but don't hesitate to correct me.)

DRILL PRESS -- It seems to me that as long as the 'table' can be set

square
(or at a set angle), and locked tight, anything else is a matter of
convenience. So, I'm thinking like a 8" 5-speed Harbor Freight (Central
Machinery) or Grizzly for $70-$80.


Garbage.

Are there any compelling/quality issues
that should require me to spend more? If so, what?


Reliability, repeatability, ease of setup, ease of use, etc, etc.

BELT SANDER -- Same rationale. I would think there isn't a lot of reason
not to get an inexpensive unit. E.g., a combo 6" disc/36" belt for about
$60 from Harbor Freight.


More garbage.

Same question: Are there any compelling/quality
issues that should require me to spend more? If so, what?


Same answer, see above.

JOINTER -- 6" with a square fence that locks well. Popular Woodworking
gave the Grizzly model 1182HW ($305) an Editors Choice award. Yet this is
pretty much low-end of the price range (except for benchtop models). Is
there any reason to pay for more than this?


Depends on what you consider acceptable.

They wouldn't meet my standards, but then maybe I'm just fussy. I also don't
have a lot of time to waste.

ROUTER -- I don't understand the ins and outs of routers, but I gather

it's
worth buying a better unit, though I couldn't tell you why. What are the
minimum capabilities I should look for? What brands are adequate for my
purpose and what likely price range?


Porter Cable worte the definitive standard.

If you can beat their performance, at a lower price, then do it.

PLANER -- (sometime down the road perhaps) It seems like the wisdom is
to buy something that produces smooth results with blades that aren't too
hard to change. Probably a 12" portable model. Price range perhaps $300
for a decent one. Sound right?


Maybe, as the song goes, "The times they are a changin".

Wait to you want to buy, then ask again.

DUST COLLECTION -- a very early investment. I've done quite a bit of
reading on this so I think I understand the cost/quality issues.


No comment on D/C, don't need one.

One final comment.

You need to buy some cheap crappy tools and try to use them to get rid of
what I call, "The Harbor Freight Syndrome".

After you have been burned, you will understand why lots of folks on this
list including me, suggest you only endure the pain once and buy the best
tool you can afford, when you need it.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures




  #6   Report Post  
Old August 12th 03, 12:41 PM
B a r r y B u r k e J r .
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:19:50 -0400, "BobAtVandy"
wrote:


DRILL PRESS -- It seems to me that as long as the 'table' can be set square
(or at a set angle), and locked tight, anything else is a matter of
convenience.


Run out. A 1/8" hole should be a 1/8" hole. Too much run out will
destroy your accuracy. A perfect drill press will turn perfectly
true, one with too much run out will cause the tip of the bit to
wobble.

BELT SANDER -- Same rationale. I would think there isn't a lot of reason
not to get an inexpensive unit. E.g., a combo 6" disc/36" belt for about
$60 from Harbor Freight. Same question: Are there any compelling/quality
issues that should require me to spend more? If so, what?


Dust collection capabilities! Sanders make a LOT of dust, so this is
important.

JOINTER -- 6" with a square fence that locks well. Popular Woodworking
gave the Grizzly model 1182HW ($305) an Editors Choice award. Yet this is
pretty much low-end of the price range (except for benchtop models). Is
there any reason to pay for more than this?


All you need are flat fences and flat tables. I picked up a Ridgid
for the same price as the Grizz delivered, and it's great. Nothing
sexy about a jointer. G It's either accurate or it's not. There
are folks here with the Grizz 6", so I'm sure you'll get information.

ROUTER -- I don't understand the ins and outs of routers, but I gather it's
worth buying a better unit, though I couldn't tell you why. What are the
minimum capabilities I should look for? What brands are adequate for my
purpose and what likely price range?


Do a Google search on 1617EVS, Porter Cable, and Dewalt. This is a
whole topic in itself. You can get a great unit, suitable for table
mounting or hand held use, with multiple bases for ~$200, from any of
the three companies. I prefer the Bosch 1617EVS, others the PC 693.
I don't think you'd go wrong with either.

PLANER -- (sometime down the road perhaps) It seems like the wisdom is
to buy something that produces smooth results with blades that aren't too
hard to change. Probably a 12" portable model. Price range perhaps $300
for a decent one. Sound right?


Right. Remember, the jointer and the planer go TOGETHER! G I'm
very happy with my DeWalt 733, which is currently being redesigned.

There are plenty to choose from in the $300-350 range, all work great.

Barry
  #7   Report Post  
Old August 12th 03, 04:21 PM
Bob G
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?



BobAtVandy wrote:

I'm a potential newbie woodworker, trying to ascertain the likely cost of
getting into this.


Your first mistake...do not even think about money .... that is you
wives job! your job will be to get into her purse...

I'm persuaded by all the advice on this newgroup that
it's worth springing for a good table saw first and foremost.


Yep I happen to agree that the Tablesaw ranks as "kind" of important...
But I don't
have a sense of when it's worthwhile paying more for better (brand?) for
other types of equipment.


Buy the tool you need ONLY when you absolutely need it...The first tool
to purchase after the Tablesaw would be a tape measure...A GOOD ONE...

I check the catalogs and, as you all know, there
is a considerable spread in price for a given type of equipment. Obviously,
I want to be able to get good results so I don't become frustrated and
disillusioned with the hobby. On the other hand, I really want to minimize
the expense. I'm probably most likely to be doing cabinets, bookshelves,
desks, furniture types of things.

After 40+ years as a serious woodworker I still have no idea what I will
be making next week... I may discover a love for turning bowls...

So, any advice on the following equipment would be appreciated. (Apologies
if some of my comments seem naive, but don't hesitate to correct me.)


Its not my style to beat around the bush... so have no fear...but
remember I sure as the devil am not an expert...

DRILL PRESS -- It seems to me that as long as the 'table' can be set square
(or at a set angle), and locked tight, anything else is a matter of
convenience. So, I'm thinking like a 8" 5-speed Harbor Freight (Central
Machinery) or Grizzly for $70-$80. Are there any compelling/quality issues
that should require me to spend more? If so, what?

Waste of money... Honest... My drill presses (plural) are and continue
to be workhorses I use them a lot more then most of my tools...AND not
necessarily for woodworking.... My home, cars, lawn equiptment etc seems
to need a lot of upkeep...and I find a drill press to be a very handy
tool...

BELT SANDER -- Same rationale. I would think there isn't a lot of reason
not to get an inexpensive unit. E.g., a combo 6" disc/36" belt for about
$60 from Harbor Freight. Same question: Are there any compelling/quality
issues that should require me to spend more? If so, what?


I do have a 6 x 48 in stationary belt sander and a 9 in (I think).. disc
and yes I use it...BUT not very much....in fact the disc has not had
sandpaper attached to it in years... A hand held ROS would be a better
choice

JOINTER -- 6" with a square fence that locks well. Popular Woodworking
gave the Grizzly model 1182HW ($305) an Editors Choice award. Yet this is
pretty much low-end of the price range (except for benchtop models). Is
there any reason to pay for more than this?

Extremely hard question to answer... I still use my original Rockwell 6
in jointer I purchased 40 years ago... I would not buy it today BUT heck
it works and it has lasted me 40 years.. I would be strongly tempted
to tell you to fo for it... after checking out Delta,Jet and Ridgid

ROUTER -- I don't understand the ins and outs of routers, but I gather it's
worth buying a better unit, though I couldn't tell you why. What are the
minimum capabilities I should look for? What brands are adequate for my
purpose and what likely price range?


I have 6 routers...even the seldom used cheap unit will do 70 percent of
what I need a router for... Just buy one that has both 1/4 and 1/2 in
collets...ALL routers are cheap...when compared to the cost of the bits
you will end up buying... believe me...


PLANER -- (sometime down the road perhaps) It seems like the wisdom is
to buy something that produces smooth results with blades that aren't too
hard to change. Probably a 12" portable model. Price range perhaps $300
for a decent one. Sound right?

You are correct...do not think about one until you GET down that road in
a few years...until then spend a few extra bucks and purchase surfaced
lumber and restrict your projects to those using normal dementioned lumber

DUST COLLECTION -- a very early investment. I've done quite a bit of
reading on this so I think I understand the cost/quality issues.

================================================= ======


Sorry BUT I do not agree on this... I have 2 Dust Collectors and 2 air
filters in my shop...BUT I worked in my shop(s) for over 25 years using
a dust mask BEFORE I ever heard of any dust collectors for a home shop...
FOR NOW get a dust mask IF you are concerned about your health... If it
is dust getting into your house and the wife is complaning then you
better deal with it ...

Cheap tools are fine IF you only need to use them once... BUT unless you
have a need for a tool... all are expensive... Most money I ever wasted
on a tool was for a cheap transmission jack that I have never
needed...BUT IT WAS CHEAP... it was a waste of money ! lol

Bob Griffiths

  #8   Report Post  
Old August 13th 03, 12:48 AM
Silvan
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

What about the table to disc alignment? You do want a perfect 90 degrees,
and you want some adjustability.


I don't agree on this point. My 36" belt/disc sander is the only tool I
have where I really shopped around extensively to see what was what. As
far as I can tell, HF, Grizzly, Craftsman and Delta all sell exactly the
same 36" belt/disc sander. Minor variations on the plastic bits, and not
all of them come with a dust collector port, but the castings and metal
bits seemed quite identical. I bought the Delta because I caught it on
sale for less than any of the others, but I don't feel like I got a better
sander because of the Delta nameplate. They're all MIT, all
assembled/adjusted exactly the same way. The motors might be different I
guess. I didn't look at the motors.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17173 Approximate word count: 515190
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

  #9   Report Post  
Old August 13th 03, 01:28 AM
Richards
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

BobAtVandy wrote:

JOINTER -- 6" with a square fence that locks well. Popular Woodworking
gave the Grizzly model 1182HW ($305) an Editors Choice award. Yet this is
pretty much low-end of the price range (except for benchtop models). Is
there any reason to pay for more than this?


Think about an 8" model, rather than a 6". I bought my 6" jet to edge
joint the lumber, not realizing that I needed to surface-plane the face
of the lumber before running it through the planner - big mistake.

  #10   Report Post  
Old August 13th 03, 01:54 PM
Renata
 
Posts: n/a
Default power tools -- price vs quality?

T'all depends on what you're planning to build (which you did identify
in your post) and what style, among other things.
How much solid wood work are you thinking you'll be doing? It's quite
possible, for certain styles, to build furniture almost totally outta
plywood with little solid wood.

Wood can be bought S4S and even pre cut to your needed widths if you
find the right supplier (NOT HD!). Where I'm going is, you might get
away, initially, without a table saw. Or jointer, or planer. Or some
other big ticket items. Rather, (to present another idea) get a
good circular saw ($100-150), good blade(s) and good router( ~$200+).
Plus some router bits (more $ than the router potentially). Maybe
throw in a good jigsaw (Milwaukee or Bosch (THE name in jigsaws, Leon)
~$150+) in the mix eventually. Oh, and you'll need some sanders - a
ROS and 1/4 pad. A drill too. Maybe a small (or not so small) drill
press, particularly if you're gonna be drill those shelf support holes
in cabinets and bookshelves. Some hand tools too, prolly. This way
you get a feel for the hobby without too major an investment, are able
to build some things, and can add equipment as you figure things out
and are financially able.

I'd stay away from cheap stuff cause you usually get what you pay for.
ANd, end up paying for it in other ways. Read the other comments for
more on this. While you might get away with HF clamps on certain
projects, you ain't gonna get far (I'd guess) with a HF power tool.
Besides, the differences in functionality, ergonomics (for lack of a
better word), etc. are usually quite noticeable between the cheap
tools and the better ones. Can't forget the day I first used my new
Bosch jigsaw after putting up with the el cheapo B&D jigsaw (it
wasn't a frequently used tool so I didn't justify a new one for quite
a while) - like nite and day. Not to say you have to go overboard and
get the ultimate like maybe Festool, but do spring for the semi/pro
stuff.

Just a couple cents worth
Renata

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:19:50 -0400, "BobAtVandy"
wrote:

I'm a potential newbie woodworker, trying to ascertain the likely cost of
getting into this. I'm persuaded by all the advice on this newgroup that
it's worth springing for a good table saw first and foremost. But I don't
have a sense of when it's worthwhile paying more for better (brand?) for
other types of equipment. I check the catalogs and, as you all know, there
is a considerable spread in price for a given type of equipment. Obviously,
I want to be able to get good results so I don't become frustrated and
disillusioned with the hobby. On the other hand, I really want to minimize
the expense. I'm probably most likely to be doing cabinets, bookshelves,
desks, furniture types of things.

So, any advice on the following equipment would be appreciated. (Apologies
if some of my comments seem naive, but don't hesitate to correct me.)

--snip--


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