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#1
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joining wires without a junction box within a wall
Greetings,
What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without disturbing the building finish? The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply electrical tape generously. Thanks, William |
#2
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What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without disturbing the building finish? NEC compliant?? I think you are out of luck. Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the NEC say any join between two wires must be within an approved and accessible j-box? |
#3
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there must be an accessible junction box (hence the name) of some sort.
no alternative except to pull both cable segments out of the wall and replace with single segment. bill " wrote in message oups.com... Greetings, What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without disturbing the building finish? The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply electrical tape generously. Thanks, William |
#4
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Greetings,
Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the NEC say any join between= two wires must be within an approved and accessible j-box? Please find a counterexamples at: http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...itemId=3D49700 and http://www.jhlarson.com/new_items/IDA/99_idaconn.htm " The Underground=99 connectors can be used without a junction box and in many cases eliminate the need for heat-shrink, resin packs or multi-piece corrosion kits. They're perfect for decorative landscape lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump installations and many other direct burial applications. " Hope this helps, William PS: I don't know what the NEC says about using underground connectors NOT underground but the point is that the NEC doesn't require ALL connected wires to be in junction boxes. Perhaps I am SOL inside a wall. Connectors which allow connections within masonry / concrete without a junction box might also be helpful. |
#6
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#7
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Whatever the case, electrical tape has no business being used for anything
except a temporary connection. To me, that means a connection you have to protect while you run out to the hardware store because you ran out of wire nuts. Or, even better, top quality crimp connectors. Yeah...I know. People have used electrical tape successfully. But, it's still a cob job. |
#8
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" wrote:
Greetings, Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the NEC say any join between two wires must be within an approved and accessible j-box? Please find a counterexamples at: http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...o?itemId=49700 and http://www.jhlarson.com/new_items/IDA/99_idaconn.htm " The Underground™ connectors can be used without a junction box and in many cases eliminate the need for heat-shrink, resin packs or multi-piece corrosion kits. They're perfect for decorative landscape lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump installations and many other direct burial applications. " Hope this helps, William PS: I don't know what the NEC says about using underground connectors NOT underground but the point is that the NEC doesn't require ALL connected wires to be in junction boxes. Perhaps I am SOL inside a wall. Connectors which allow connections within masonry / concrete without a junction box might also be helpful. Those aren't "counterexamples" at all of what you asked about. The NEC does require all in-wall connections to be accessible and in a junction box accessible w/o having to mar the finish. What is allowed underground or external has no bearing on the question posed. |
#9
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When I had a situation like that in my basement, I just joined the 2
cables in a double gang box and made an outlet. So if I ever need access to it I can. |
#10
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They're perfect for decorative landscape
lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump installations and many other direct burial applications. Specific to outdoors/underground applications. I guess the assumption is outside you can always dig up anything that gets screwed up. Indoors however different story with respect to destruction of finished surfaces. |
#11
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Definitely DO NOT just twist the wires together and wrap with a lot of
tape! Just curious, would/could this practice lead to a fire caused by inductive heating? |
#12
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I did a lot of remodeling and wiring in my house. I had to change a lot
of existing circuits. I often used switched box, either metal or plastic with cover. Many times the switch box is inaccessible when I don't have way to connect two wires in assessable box. Inspector never told me anything about inaccessible boxes and I don't understand why they cannot be used. Otherwise I had to rip off entire house to get to the accessible box where one piece of wire starts. |
#13
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#14
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Sasha,
If the box was hidden, the inspector probably didn't know it was there. By the way, the NEC was written by "The National Fire Protection Association". There is something in that name that makes me want to follow the code as closely as possible, so I can live as long as possibly. The life I save may be my own. (You may save your own too!) Not a good place to save money. Stretch |
#17
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They're perfect for decorative landscape
lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump installations and many other direct burial applications. Specific to outdoors/underground applications. I guess the assumption is outside you can always dig up anything that gets screwed up. That and dirt generally won't catch fire, unlike a stud wall. |
#18
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What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without disturbing the building finish? There is no way to do it without being accessible. Look at the fiasco of things like aluminum wire for a good example. Any time there's a connection made you need to have access to it. As has been suggested, pull the wires into a single gang junction box and put a wall outlet in it. Accessible for any future needs and potentially useful in the room. Otherwise just put a blank faceplace on it. The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply electrical tape generously. Then you're not looking at something that would pass code. |
#19
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#20
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Sasha wrote:
I did a lot of remodeling and wiring in my house. I had to change a lot of existing circuits. I often used switched box, either metal or plastic with cover. Many times the switch box is inaccessible when I don't have way to connect two wires in assessable box. Inspector never told me anything about inaccessible boxes and I don't understand why they cannot be used. Otherwise I had to rip off entire house to get to the accessible box where one piece of wire starts. A. Probably the inspector didn't say anything because he was unaware of what you did. Alternatively, he could have just been incompetent, but that's less likely. B. The "why" is precisely because of the "in" in inaccessible. It then becomes not only a problem w/ destroying the finish wall in a house when there's a problem, it's a hide and seek game to find the location of the hidden box that has the loose connection in the even there is a problem--and trust me, there will be a problem of some sort at some point in time. |
#21
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George E. Cawthon wrote:
zxcvbob wrote: wrote: Greetings, What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without disturbing the building finish? The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply electrical tape generously. Thanks, William There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it safely but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to weld) or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It would be a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you were done. HTH Best regards, Bob One ought to follow the NEC, but the way you said is not the really the safe way. Wires are joined all over the house and in box and are safe. An inaccessible box can't be inspected but that doesn't make it unsafe. In fact, if one wires inaccessible boxes just like the accessible ones, one is no more unsafe than the other. But if I were doing it, which I wouldn't, I would make sure I used a box that clamps on the romex. The problem with an inaccessible box is when some yahoo starts pulling on the wires, the wires are not stapled as required, and the wires pull partially apart. You can stop that by using boxes with clamps. I think this is all nonsense anyway as you should never need to use an inaccessible box. Just use an accessible box that is in full view or hidden behind a door, a hinged cover, a picture, etc. OP asked about joining wires without a box, and I was trying to make the point that doing it without a box would be more trouble and probably more expensive than doing it right -- and would still be a poor job when you were done. Best regards, Bob |
#22
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Inspector did see all junction boxes. I never hid anything from him. I
don't understand why junction box may become a problem. I have 55 years old house and wiwing was done so-so. However I didn't find any loose connection in any of the box. If wires are screwed properly using proper wire nuts I do not see why they may become loose or any other problem. |
#23
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Sasha wrote:
Inspector did see all junction boxes. I never hid anything from him. I don't understand why junction box may become a problem. I have 55 years old house and wiwing was done so-so. However I didn't find any loose connection in any of the box. If wires are screwed properly using proper wire nuts I do not see why they may become loose or any other problem. A. In short, stuff happens... B. All I can say is I'm amazed any inspector would see junction boxes to be covered over permanently and let it pass... C. Think about the poor schmuck who eventually ends up w/ this place and has no idea where this multitude of additional boxes are? |
#24
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Inspector did see all junction boxes. I never hid anything from him. I
don't understand why junction box may become a problem. I have 55 years old house and wiwing was done so-so. However I didn't find any loose connection in any of the box. If wires are screwed properly using proper wire nuts I do not see why they may become loose or any other problem. Go read up on aluminum wire for a good story on how 'screwed properly' turned out not to be the case. Wire is cheap and it's really not all that hard to just pull fresh ones. Sure, it's more work than just tacking on more mistakes but, really, why even take the risks? |
#25
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zxcvbob wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote: zxcvbob wrote: wrote: Greetings, What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without disturbing the building finish? The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply electrical tape generously. Thanks, William There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it safely but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to weld) or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It would be a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you were done. HTH Best regards, Bob One ought to follow the NEC, but the way you said is not the really the safe way. Wires are joined all over the house and in box and are safe. An inaccessible box can't be inspected but that doesn't make it unsafe. In fact, if one wires inaccessible boxes just like the accessible ones, one is no more unsafe than the other. But if I were doing it, which I wouldn't, I would make sure I used a box that clamps on the romex. The problem with an inaccessible box is when some yahoo starts pulling on the wires, the wires are not stapled as required, and the wires pull partially apart. You can stop that by using boxes with clamps. I think this is all nonsense anyway as you should never need to use an inaccessible box. Just use an accessible box that is in full view or hidden behind a door, a hinged cover, a picture, etc. OP asked about joining wires without a box, and I was trying to make the point that doing it without a box would be more trouble and probably more expensive than doing it right -- and would still be a poor job when you were done. Best regards, Bob Ah. I kind of missed that point in your last sentence and got sidetracked by the many other comments I was reading about the boxes. Sorry. |
#26
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According to zxcvbob :
There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it safely but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to weld) or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It would be a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you were done. HTH I'm not recommending this: Was helping a friend rewire a house (almost complete wall teardown and removal of K&T), and we were left with a beautiful plastered ceiling we didn't want to touch, and we needed some way to reattach the K&T to the ceiling fixture to the new wiring, and it was in a real bad place to put an accessible box. So we held off on that, with the hope that the inspector would have a good idea on his next visit. The inspector told us to twist the wires together with at least 2" or so of twist, solder (with ordinary solder), tape thoroughly, and "don't let me see it". This is basically replicating K&T connection techniques. [K&T was mid-air spliced all the time.] That's not legal. But the inspector told us to do it... -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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