joining wires without a junction box within a wall
 

Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Thanks,
William

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

NEC compliant??

I think you are out of luck. Someone correct me if I am wrong but
doesn't the NEC say any join between two wires must be within an
approved and accessible j-box?

there must be an accessible junction box (hence the name) of some sort.

no alternative except to pull both cable segments out of the wall
and replace with single segment.

bill

" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Thanks,
William

Greetings,

Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the NEC say any join between=
two wires
must be within an approved and accessible j-box?

Please find a counterexamples at:
http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...itemId=3D49700

and

http://www.jhlarson.com/new_items/IDA/99_idaconn.htm
"
The Underground=99 connectors can be used without a junction box and in
many cases eliminate the need for heat-shrink, resin packs or
multi-piece corrosion kits. They're perfect for decorative landscape
lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump
installations and many other direct burial applications.
"

Hope this helps,
William

PS: I don't know what the NEC says about using underground connectors
NOT underground but the point is that the NEC doesn't require ALL
connected wires to be in junction boxes. Perhaps I am SOL inside a
wall.

Connectors which allow connections within masonry / concrete without a
junction box might also be helpful.

wrote:
Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

There is no code-compliant way to make an inaccessible join, by
definition.

You can make the join in a single- or double-size outlet box (which is
properly mounted at the wall surface, as if you were going to put an
outlet there) and cover it with a blank rectangular cover, which you
can then paint or paper to match the wall, or hang a picture over.

Or if the location makes sense for it, you could make the join in an
octagonal box and mount a wall sconce fixture or an AC smoke alarm
(though the latter would technically need to be on its own 14/3 circuit
interconnected with other alarms in the house, I believe.) There are no
"pretty" blank covers for octagonal boxes.

In any case the box needs to be bonded to the circuit's ground wire.

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Yeah, we've all seen that, as well as switches and fixtures mounted in
holes in the wall with no box. I don't think it was ever code for
romex, and is the sign of shoddy work. I don't know if it was code in
in knob-and-tube days.

Chip C

wrote:
Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Thanks,
William

Definitely DO NOT just twist the wires together and wrap with a lot of
tape!

I thought there was some connecter that was listed for use where it is
inaccessible. Can't remember where I saw this or remember the
manufacturer....

I tried a google search but didn't run across what I was thinking of.
Anybody else know what I might be thinking of?


Ken

Whatever the case, electrical tape has no business being used for anything
except a temporary connection. To me, that means a connection you have to
protect while you run out to the hardware store because you ran out of wire
nuts. Or, even better, top quality crimp connectors. Yeah...I know. People
have used electrical tape successfully. But, it's still a cob job.

" wrote:

Greetings,

Someone correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the NEC say any join between two wires
must be within an approved and accessible j-box?

Please find a counterexamples at:
http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...o?itemId=49700

and

http://www.jhlarson.com/new_items/IDA/99_idaconn.htm
"
The Underground™ connectors can be used without a junction box and in
many cases eliminate the need for heat-shrink, resin packs or
multi-piece corrosion kits. They're perfect for decorative landscape
lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump
installations and many other direct burial applications.
"

Hope this helps,
William

PS: I don't know what the NEC says about using underground connectors
NOT underground but the point is that the NEC doesn't require ALL
connected wires to be in junction boxes. Perhaps I am SOL inside a
wall.

Connectors which allow connections within masonry / concrete without a
junction box might also be helpful.

Those aren't "counterexamples" at all of what you asked about.

The NEC does require all in-wall connections to be accessible and in a
junction box accessible w/o having to mar the finish. What is allowed
underground or external has no bearing on the question posed.

When I had a situation like that in my basement, I just joined the 2
cables in a double gang box and made an outlet. So if I ever need
access to it I can.

They're perfect for decorative landscape
lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump
installations and many other direct burial applications.

Specific to outdoors/underground applications. I guess the assumption
is outside you can always dig up anything that gets screwed up.

Indoors however different story with respect to destruction of finished
surfaces.

Definitely DO NOT just twist the wires together and wrap with a lot of
tape!

Just curious, would/could this practice lead to a fire caused by
inductive heating?

I did a lot of remodeling and wiring in my house. I had to change a lot
of existing circuits. I often used switched box, either metal or
plastic with cover. Many times the switch box is inaccessible when I
don't have way to connect two wires in assessable box. Inspector never
told me anything about inaccessible boxes and I don't understand why
they cannot be used. Otherwise I had to rip off entire house to get to
the accessible box where one piece of wire starts.

Sasha,
If the box was hidden, the inspector probably didn't know it was there.
By the way, the NEC was written by "The National Fire Protection
Association". There is something in that name that makes me want to
follow the code as closely as possible, so I can live as long as
possibly. The life I save may be my own. (You may save your own too!)
Not a good place to save money.

Stretch

zxcvbob wrote:
wrote:

Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Thanks,
William



There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it safely
but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the
connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't
good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to weld)
or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It would be
a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you were done. HTH

Best regards,
Bob

One ought to follow the NEC, but the way you said
is not the really the safe way. Wires are joined
all over the house and in box and are safe. An
inaccessible box can't be inspected but that
doesn't make it unsafe. In fact, if one wires
inaccessible boxes just like the accessible ones,
one is no more unsafe than the other. But if I
were doing it, which I wouldn't, I would make sure
I used a box that clamps on the romex. The
problem with an inaccessible box is when some
yahoo starts pulling on the wires, the wires are
not stapled as required, and the wires pull
partially apart. You can stop that by using boxes
with clamps.


I think this is all nonsense anyway as you should
never need to use an inaccessible box. Just use
an accessible box that is in full view or hidden
behind a door, a hinged cover, a picture, etc.

They're perfect for decorative landscape
lighting, lawn sprinkler control systems, sump and well pump
installations and many other direct burial applications.

Specific to outdoors/underground applications. I guess the assumption
is outside you can always dig up anything that gets screwed up.

That and dirt generally won't catch fire, unlike a stud wall.

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

There is no way to do it without being accessible. Look at the fiasco of
things like aluminum wire for a good example. Any time there's a connection
made you need to have access to it. As has been suggested, pull the wires
into a single gang junction box and put a wall outlet in it. Accessible for
any future needs and potentially useful in the room. Otherwise just put a
blank faceplace on it.

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Then you're not looking at something that would pass code.

Sasha wrote:

I did a lot of remodeling and wiring in my house. I had to change a lot
of existing circuits. I often used switched box, either metal or
plastic with cover. Many times the switch box is inaccessible when I
don't have way to connect two wires in assessable box. Inspector never
told me anything about inaccessible boxes and I don't understand why
they cannot be used. Otherwise I had to rip off entire house to get to
the accessible box where one piece of wire starts.

A. Probably the inspector didn't say anything because he was unaware of
what you did. Alternatively, he could have just been incompetent, but
that's less likely.

B. The "why" is precisely because of the "in" in inaccessible. It then
becomes not only a problem w/ destroying the finish wall in a house when
there's a problem, it's a hide and seek game to find the location of the
hidden box that has the loose connection in the even there is a
problem--and trust me, there will be a problem of some sort at some
point in time.

George E. Cawthon wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

wrote:

Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Thanks,
William



There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it
safely but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the
connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't
good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to weld)
or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It would
be a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you were
done. HTH

Best regards,
Bob


One ought to follow the NEC, but the way you said is not the really the
safe way. Wires are joined all over the house and in box and are safe.
An inaccessible box can't be inspected but that doesn't make it unsafe.
In fact, if one wires inaccessible boxes just like the accessible ones,
one is no more unsafe than the other. But if I were doing it, which I
wouldn't, I would make sure I used a box that clamps on the romex. The
problem with an inaccessible box is when some yahoo starts pulling on
the wires, the wires are not stapled as required, and the wires pull
partially apart. You can stop that by using boxes with clamps.


I think this is all nonsense anyway as you should never need to use an
inaccessible box. Just use an accessible box that is in full view or
hidden behind a door, a hinged cover, a picture, etc.


OP asked about joining wires without a box, and I was trying to make the
point that doing it without a box would be more trouble and probably
more expensive than doing it right -- and would still be a poor job when
you were done.

Best regards,
Bob

Inspector did see all junction boxes. I never hid anything from him. I
don't understand why junction box may become a problem. I have 55 years
old house and wiwing was done so-so. However I didn't find any loose
connection in any of the box. If wires are screwed properly using
proper wire nuts I do not see why they may become loose or any other
problem.

Sasha wrote:

Inspector did see all junction boxes. I never hid anything from him. I
don't understand why junction box may become a problem. I have 55 years
old house and wiwing was done so-so. However I didn't find any loose
connection in any of the box. If wires are screwed properly using
proper wire nuts I do not see why they may become loose or any other
problem.

A. In short, stuff happens...

B. All I can say is I'm amazed any inspector would see junction boxes to
be covered over permanently and let it pass...

C. Think about the poor schmuck who eventually ends up w/ this place and
has no idea where this multitude of additional boxes are?

Inspector did see all junction boxes. I never hid anything from him. I
don't understand why junction box may become a problem. I have 55 years
old house and wiwing was done so-so. However I didn't find any loose
connection in any of the box. If wires are screwed properly using
proper wire nuts I do not see why they may become loose or any other
problem.

Go read up on aluminum wire for a good story on how 'screwed properly'
turned out not to be the case.

Wire is cheap and it's really not all that hard to just pull fresh ones.
Sure, it's more work than just tacking on more mistakes but, really, why
even take the risks?

zxcvbob wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:

zxcvbob wrote:

wrote:

Greetings,

What is the best (cheapest/quickest?) NEC compliant way to join two
wires within a wall that will NOT later be accessible without
disturbing the building finish?

The current method I most often see utilized in past construction is to
strip an area of insulation off of a wire without cutting it, twist
another wire around this wire with many loops and finally apply
electrical tape generously.

Thanks,
William



There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it
safely but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the
connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't
good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to
weld) or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It
would be a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you
were done. HTH

Best regards,
Bob



One ought to follow the NEC, but the way you said is not the really
the safe way. Wires are joined all over the house and in box and are
safe. An inaccessible box can't be inspected but that doesn't make it
unsafe. In fact, if one wires inaccessible boxes just like the
accessible ones, one is no more unsafe than the other. But if I were
doing it, which I wouldn't, I would make sure I used a box that clamps
on the romex. The problem with an inaccessible box is when some yahoo
starts pulling on the wires, the wires are not stapled as required,
and the wires pull partially apart. You can stop that by using boxes
with clamps.


I think this is all nonsense anyway as you should never need to use an
inaccessible box. Just use an accessible box that is in full view or
hidden behind a door, a hinged cover, a picture, etc.



OP asked about joining wires without a box, and I was trying to make the
point that doing it without a box would be more trouble and probably
more expensive than doing it right -- and would still be a poor job when
you were done.

Best regards,
Bob

Ah. I kind of missed that point in your last
sentence and got sidetracked by the many other
comments I was reading about the boxes. Sorry.

According to zxcvbob :
There's not an NEC compliant way to do it. If you want to do it safely
but not compliant, do what you said but then silver-solder the
connection and wrap with rubber splicing tape. Regular solder isn't
good enough, you'd have to either weld it (and copper is hard to weld)
or use silver solder with a high silver content (like 40%.) It would be
a real pain-in-the-ass to do, and a half-assed job when you were done. HTH

I'm not recommending this:

Was helping a friend rewire a house (almost complete wall teardown and removal
of K&T), and we were left with a beautiful plastered ceiling we didn't want
to touch, and we needed some way to reattach the K&T to the ceiling fixture
to the new wiring, and it was in a real bad place to put an accessible box.

So we held off on that, with the hope that the inspector would have a good
idea on his next visit.

The inspector told us to twist the wires together with at least 2" or so of twist,
solder (with ordinary solder), tape thoroughly, and "don't let me see it".

This is basically replicating K&T connection techniques.

[K&T was mid-air spliced all the time.]

That's not legal. But the inspector told us to do it...
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.