While browsing some Google results I came across a document by some
particular State/Municipality building department advising DIY
homeowners that junction boxes are not permitted in attics.

Is this an NEC rule or a local idiosyncracy? In either case, why would
this be bad?

I've discovered two metal junction boxes in our attic with the Romex
simply fed through the knockouts with no clamps. I was planning to redo
them with clamps, but now I'm wondering whether it would be good to
undertake a more radical upgrade.

Perce

Greetings,

A) I have never heard anyone complain about junction boxes within an
attic. It is not an NEC rule. What is the URL to the document? Where
(what page?) does the document say this.

B) Some boxes have cable clamps INSIDE rather than outside. You might
have run across such a box. Otherwise feel free to add the clamps.

Hope this helps,
William

PS: If there really aren't any clamps I would take the time to inspect
the other boxes within the house. Pull out a light and a receptacle or
two in your investigation as well.

On 08/05/05 01:28 pm tossed the following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

A) I have never heard anyone complain about junction boxes within an
attic. It is not an NEC rule. What is the URL to the document? Where
(what page?) does the document say this.

It's the "Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet" from the City of
Bloomington, MN:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or conceal them in walls."

B) Some boxes have cable clamps INSIDE rather than outside. You might
have run across such a box. Otherwise feel free to add the clamps.

PS: If there really aren't any clamps I would take the time to inspect
the other boxes within the house. Pull out a light and a receptacle or
two in your investigation as well.

I'll check the boxes in question. I have already found some weird
electrical stuff in this house, including a couple of instances of wires
joined by twisting copper wire around the untwisted conductors and
insulated with the cap of a "magic marker" and the whole lot taped up.

Thanks.

Perce

"Do not install junction boxes in the
attic or conceal them in walls."

That makes no sense at all. That would mean that junction boxes must be
on the surface of the wall (how 'bout that exposed Romex?) and in the
basement, I guess.

There are some other bizarro factoids in that PDF file. Like how the
roughing-in inspection has to be done with all insulation off, what the
heck can that mean?

I'm sure that whoever wrote those sections had good intentions but I
doubt he intended it to be read the way we are.

Tim.

wrote:
"Do not install junction boxes in the
attic or conceal them in walls."

That makes no sense at all. That would mean that junction boxes must be
on the surface of the wall (how 'bout that exposed Romex?) and in the
basement, I guess.

Concealed in a wall and recessed are two different things. They don't
want buried boxes.

The attic reference is very odd. Maybe they're assuming an inaccesible
attic?

There are some other bizarro factoids in that PDF file. Like how the
roughing-in inspection has to be done with all insulation off, what the
heck can that mean?

Wall insulation, primarily. The inspector prefers to see exposed runs
and connections.

R

You could always put a light or an
outlet, depending on the location of the
box.
That might make the "locals" happy. You
could always use extra lights or an
outlet in a attic .... well, since the
advent of good battery drills and saws,
its not
as usefull as it used to be.

wrote:
"Do not install junction boxes in the
attic or conceal them in walls."


That makes no sense at all. That would mean that junction boxes must be
on the surface of the wall (how 'bout that exposed Romex?) and in the
basement, I guess.

There are some other bizarro factoids in that PDF file. Like how the
roughing-in inspection has to be done with all insulation off, what the
heck can that mean?

I'm sure that whoever wrote those sections had good intentions but I
doubt he intended it to be read the way we are.

Tim.

wrote:
"Do not install junction boxes in the
attic or conceal them in walls."


That makes no sense at all. That would mean that junction boxes must be
on the surface of the wall (how 'bout that exposed Romex?) and in the
basement, I guess.

There are some other bizarro factoids in that PDF file. Like how the
roughing-in inspection has to be done with all insulation off, what the
heck can that mean?

I'm sure that whoever wrote those sections had good intentions but I
doubt he intended it to be read the way we are.

Tim.


You are right, true or not, it makes no sense.
For example all of the light fixture boxes and
outlet boxes in the ceiling are attached to joists
and open from the attic (usually covered with
insulation). There is less protection in the
attic than in the room below. So putting a box in
the attic would not increase the danger any. I
would bet that the statement applies to
non-accessible attics.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 08/05/05 01:28 pm tossed the following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

A) I have never heard anyone complain about junction boxes within an
attic. It is not an NEC rule. What is the URL to the document? Where
(what page?) does the document say this.

It's the "Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet" from the City of
Bloomington, MN:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or conceal them in walls."

B) Some boxes have cable clamps INSIDE rather than outside. You might
have run across such a box. Otherwise feel free to add the clamps.

PS: If there really aren't any clamps I would take the time to inspect
the other boxes within the house. Pull out a light and a receptacle or
two in your investigation as well.

I'll check the boxes in question. I have already found some weird
electrical stuff in this house, including a couple of instances of wires
joined by twisting copper wire around the untwisted conductors and
insulated with the cap of a "magic marker" and the whole lot taped up.

Thanks.

Perce

Greetings,

I did the unthinkable and called up the city of Bloomington, MN for
clarification. When I asked about the attic box rule the lady said
that they follow the National Electrical Code. I didn't know exactly
what she meant by that answer so I asked her if that meant they had no
rules in addition to the NEC. She said that she wasn't an inspector
and didn't know. None of the inspectors had the time to speak with me
and I was not given the option to hold. I left a voice mail and will
let you know what the inspector says when (if) he calls back.

Hope this helps,
William

Wall insulation

Oh, I had my "electrical" hat on at the time!

Tim.

" wrote in
message
oups.com...

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 08/05/05 01:28 pm tossed the
following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

A) I have never heard anyone complain about
junction boxes within an
attic. It is not an NEC rule. What is the URL to
the document? Where
(what page?) does the document say this.

It's the "Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet"
from the City of
Bloomington, MN:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction
Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or
conceal them in walls."

B) Some boxes have cable clamps INSIDE rather than
outside. You might
have run across such a box. Otherwise feel free
to add the clamps.

PS: If there really aren't any clamps I would take
the time to inspect
the other boxes within the house. Pull out a
light and a receptacle or
two in your investigation as well.

I'll check the boxes in question. I have already
found some weird
electrical stuff in this house, including a couple
of instances of wires
joined by twisting copper wire around the untwisted
conductors and
insulated with the cap of a "magic marker" and the
whole lot taped up.

Thanks.

Perce

Greetings,

I did the unthinkable and called up the city of
Bloomington, MN for
clarification. When I asked about the attic box rule
the lady said
that they follow the National Electrical Code. I
didn't know exactly
what she meant by that answer so I asked her if that
meant they had no
rules in addition to the NEC. She said that she
wasn't an inspector
and didn't know. None of the inspectors had the time
to speak with me
and I was not given the option to hold. I left a
voice mail and will
let you know what the inspector says when (if) he
calls back.

Hope this helps,
William


Goog going; anxious to hear back! I wonder if "attic"
in a place like Mn means something different than it
means to the rest of us? Either that or some
clarification of the statement is missing. It just
isn't reasonble as it is.

Pop

I've seen local guys come up with some real BS stuff on their own
before. Someone I knew was putting a hot tub on their outside deck.
The electrician went to get a permit to run the wiring. The building
inspector hands him a list of their requirements, some of which came
from BOCA proposals, that were not even adopted. The classic was that
the spa must have a cover capable of supporting two adults for a
rescue. Now that surely ranks as dumber than no junction boxes in an
attic. I mean, do these guys even know what a hot tub/spa is? I've
seen a lot of them, even large ones at hotels, and have yet to see one
where having a cover that would support two people would be in any way
relevant to rescuing anyone from a spa.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've seen local guys come up with some real BS stuff on their own
before. Someone I knew was putting a hot tub on their outside deck.
The electrician went to get a permit to run the wiring. The building
inspector hands him a list of their requirements, some of which came
from BOCA proposals, that were not even adopted. The classic was that
the spa must have a cover capable of supporting two adults for a
rescue. Now that surely ranks as dumber than no junction boxes in an
attic. I mean, do these guys even know what a hot tub/spa is? I've
seen a lot of them, even large ones at hotels, and have yet to see one
where having a cover that would support two people would be in any way
relevant to rescuing anyone from a spa.


The local yokel crap got so bad around here that the state finally took over
and implemented state wide licensing and standards based strictly on NEC. A
lot of crap disappeared over night.


Colbyt

wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 08/05/05 01:28 pm tossed the following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

A) I have never heard anyone complain about junction boxes within an
attic. It is not an NEC rule. What is the URL to the document? Where
(what page?) does the document say this.

It's the "Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet" from the City of
Bloomington, MN:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or conceal them in walls."

B) Some boxes have cable clamps INSIDE rather than outside. You might
have run across such a box. Otherwise feel free to add the clamps.

PS: If there really aren't any clamps I would take the time to inspect
the other boxes within the house. Pull out a light and a receptacle or
two in your investigation as well.

I'll check the boxes in question. I have already found some weird
electrical stuff in this house, including a couple of instances of wires
joined by twisting copper wire around the untwisted conductors and
insulated with the cap of a "magic marker" and the whole lot taped up.

Thanks.

Perce

Greetings,

I did the unthinkable and called up the city of Bloomington, MN for
clarification. When I asked about the attic box rule the lady said
that they follow the National Electrical Code. I didn't know exactly
what she meant by that answer so I asked her if that meant they had no
rules in addition to the NEC. She said that she wasn't an inspector
and didn't know. None of the inspectors had the time to speak with me
and I was not given the option to hold. I left a voice mail and will
let you know what the inspector says when (if) he calls back.

Hope this helps,
William

Greetings,

I had not heard back from the city so I called them up again. "All
lines were busy." I waited on hold for about 4 minutes and spoke to
the operator. She wanted to know which electrical inspector I wanted
to speak with and I told her that any of them would do. Then she asked
me what region of Bloomington it concerned and I said all of them. She
then asked me where the property was located and I said that my
question concerned a "Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet" and not a
particular property. She seemed perturbed by my insistence that any
electrical inspector would do but eventually she gave up and said that
she would put me into someone's voicemail. At this point I was
disconnected. I guess it is not too late to hear back today from my
call placed Friday so I'll hold off until tomorrow before calling them
back.

Hope this helps,
William

" wrote in
message
oups.com...

wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 08/05/05 01:28 pm tossed the
following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

A) I have never heard anyone complain about
junction boxes within an
attic. It is not an NEC rule. What is the URL
to the document? Where
(what page?) does the document say this.

It's the "Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet"
from the City of
Bloomington, MN:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction
Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or
conceal them in walls."

B) Some boxes have cable clamps INSIDE rather
than outside. You might
have run across such a box. Otherwise feel free
to add the clamps.

PS: If there really aren't any clamps I would
take the time to inspect
the other boxes within the house. Pull out a
light and a receptacle or
two in your investigation as well.

I'll check the boxes in question. I have already
found some weird
electrical stuff in this house, including a couple
of instances of wires
joined by twisting copper wire around the
untwisted conductors and
insulated with the cap of a "magic marker" and the
whole lot taped up.

Thanks.

Perce

Greetings,

I did the unthinkable and called up the city of
Bloomington, MN for
clarification. When I asked about the attic box
rule the lady said
that they follow the National Electrical Code. I
didn't know exactly
what she meant by that answer so I asked her if that
meant they had no
rules in addition to the NEC. She said that she
wasn't an inspector
and didn't know. None of the inspectors had the
time to speak with me
and I was not given the option to hold. I left a
voice mail and will
let you know what the inspector says when (if) he
calls back.

Hope this helps,
William

Greetings,

I had not heard back from the city so I called them
up again. "All
lines were busy." I waited on hold for about 4
minutes and spoke to
the operator. She wanted to know which electrical
inspector I wanted
to speak with and I told her that any of them would
do. Then she asked
me what region of Bloomington it concerned and I said
all of them. She
then asked me where the property was located and I
said that my
question concerned a "Circuits and Wiring Information
Sheet" and not a
particular property. She seemed perturbed by my
insistence that any
electrical inspector would do but eventually she gave
up and said that
she would put me into someone's voicemail. At this
point I was
disconnected. I guess it is not too late to hear
back today from my
call placed Friday so I'll hold off until tomorrow
before calling them
back.

Hope this helps,
William


Thanks; keep us posted. This is really a curious one.
It sounds like one about has to camp on their doorstep
to get anythiung done in that town.

Pop

Greetings,

I called back and spoke with the operator Julie. I asked to speak with
an inspector. She told me that they were all out on inspections but
that I could leave a message. I told her that my message from 6 days
ago had not yet been returned and she said that I might be able to
catch them between 3-4 pm today. I thanked her and then left a message
in "Rick's voicemail" for him to call me back.

Will keep you posted,
William

" wrote in
message
ups.com...
Greetings,

I called back and spoke with the operator Julie. I
asked to speak with
an inspector. She told me that they were all out on
inspections but
that I could leave a message. I told her that my
message from 6 days
ago had not yet been returned and she said that I
might be able to
catch them between 3-4 pm today. I thanked her and
then left a message
in "Rick's voicemail" for him to call me back.

Will keep you posted,
William


Sounds like his gal friday runs a lot of interference
for him. No well known name, no interest. Just a
homeowner? Nahh, don' wurry 'bout him!"

Interesting saga.

You should tell them you're making this info available
to millions of people on the internet next time.

Pop

Pop wrote:
....
You should tell them you're making this info available
to millions of people on the internet next time.

Oh, I'm sure that threat will strike terror to his heart...

What is this about? Of course junction boxes are allowed in an attic.
This assumes the attic has access to it, of course.

wrote:
Greetings,

I called back and spoke with the operator Julie. I asked to speak with
an inspector. She told me that they were all out on inspections but
that I could leave a message. I told her that my message from 6 days
ago had not yet been returned and she said that I might be able to
catch them between 3-4 pm today. I thanked her and then left a message
in "Rick's voicemail" for him to call me back.

Will keep you posted,
William


--
Phil Munro Dept of Electrical & Computer Engin
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio 44555

Phil Munro wrote:

What is this about? Of course junction boxes are allowed in an attic.
This assumes the attic has access to it, of course.

A code description document apparently documenting local requirements in
addition to NEC in the OPs locale...somewhere in MN, Istr??? There was
a link to it somewhere early on in the thread--apparently this document
does actually say this from others' comments alto I didn't go look
myself.

On 08/11/05 01:14 pm Phil Munro tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

What is this about? Of course junction boxes are allowed in an attic.
This assumes the attic has access to it, of course.

This whole thread originated with my question about the legality of
junction boxes in attics, based on the City of Bloomington, MN's
"Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet" for DIYers:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or conceal them in walls."

Perce

Perce,

At the top it says "Information sheet." At the bottom it says "This
handout is a guide."
An information sheet or guide is not synonymous with "the code," in my
understanding
of English. Also, since the operative sentence refers to canceled
walls I believe the writer
also meant "concealed ceilings." If you ever get to talk to someone
I'd ask if there was
an applicable CODE that you can look at. He will probably say NEC.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, as I am far away from
Bloomington.

Ed


This whole thread originated with my question about the legality of
junction boxes in attics, based on the City of Bloomington, MN's
"Circuits and Wiring Information Sheet" for DIYers:

http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...3qcircuits.pdf

Page 1, right-hand column, under heading "Junction Boxes":

"Do not install junction boxes in the attic or conceal them in
walls."

Perce

Greetings,

Called at 8:14 EST hoping to reach an inspector before they left for
the day and reached a message which says that the offices are open
starting at 8:00 (they are in a different time zone than me). "There
is no operator assistance at this time." If I am having an emergency I
can dial 911.

I called back at 9:54 am and was told that they were all out doing
inspections. "They should be in around noon or so." I was again
transferred to Rick Butterfields voicemail. I left him a message to
call me back and gave him both my numbers.

Hope this helps,
William

wrote:
Greetings,

Called at 8:14 EST hoping to reach an inspector before they left for
the day and reached a message which says that the offices are open
starting at 8:00 (they are in a different time zone than me). "There
is no operator assistance at this time." If I am having an emergency I
can dial 911.

I called back at 9:54 am and was told that they were all out doing
inspections. "They should be in around noon or so." I was again
transferred to Rick Butterfields voicemail. I left him a message to
call me back and gave him both my numbers.

Hope this helps,
William

Greetings,

Called back in the hopes of reaching an inspector. 11:15 am "All lines
that you are trying to reach at this time are busy. Please remain on
the line and your call will be answered in the order in which it was
received." ... 11:20 am Spoke with the operator. Left a message with
Rick again. I left two numbers. I specifically asked him to leave a
message if for some reason I did not answer (might already be on the
phone, etc).

Hope this helps,
William

Greetings,

I called again and spoke with Julie. All inspectors are out. I left
another message with Rick.

William

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Greetings,

I called again and spoke with Julie. All inspectors are out. I left
another message with Rick.

William


Who cares????
--

Tekkie

"Tekkie®" wrote in message
...
: posted for all of us...
: I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
:
: Greetings,
:
: I called again and spoke with Julie. All inspectors are out.
I left
: another message with Rick.
:
: William
:
:
: Who cares????
: --
:
: Tekkie
I do

Greetings,

I called in this morning and spoke with Julie. I asked her why no one
had called me back and she said that she didn't know. She suggested
that I call back today between 3 and 4. I called back at 3 pm
(Bloomington time) exactly and asked to speak with an inspector. I was
transferred to "Rick" who said that he didn't get my messages. I told
him that this episode was being discussed / broadcast on the World Wide
Web. It turns out I was speaking with "Rick Soderstrom" and "Rick
Butterfield" was the one who I left messages for. Rick S. seemed
willing to help in any way that he could and was entirely reasonable.
He told me that he didn't know about the informational sheet but that
he would look it up and get back to me in the next couple of days. He
said that you could have boxes in the attic but that the attic should
not be used as a central wiring junction area. He was also sure to
point out that some attics are not accessable and therefore the rules
for accessable boxes would not apply.

Hope this helps,
William

Greetings,

Summery / Clarification: If your attic is not accessible you cannot put
a junction box there. If your attic is accessible you must minimize
the number of junction boxes there.

Hope this helps,
William

Pop posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.=20

=20
"Tekkie=AE" wrote in message=20
...
: posted for all of us...
: I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
:
: Greetings,
:
: I called again and spoke with Julie. All inspectors are out.=20
I left
: another message with Rick.
:
: William
:
:
: Who cares????
: --=20
:
: Tekkie
I do
=20
=20
=20
Take your love affair to email.
--=20

Tekkie

wrote:
Greetings,

I called in this morning and spoke with Julie. I asked her why no one
had called me back and she said that she didn't know. She suggested
that I call back today between 3 and 4. I called back at 3 pm
(Bloomington time) exactly and asked to speak with an inspector. I was
transferred to "Rick" who said that he didn't get my messages. I told
him that this episode was being discussed / broadcast on the World Wide
Web. It turns out I was speaking with "Rick Soderstrom" and "Rick
Butterfield" was the one who I left messages for. Rick S. seemed
willing to help in any way that he could and was entirely reasonable.
He told me that he didn't know about the informational sheet but that
he would look it up and get back to me in the next couple of days. He
said that you could have boxes in the attic but that the attic should
not be used as a central wiring junction area. He was also sure to
point out that some attics are not accessable and therefore the rules
for accessable boxes would not apply.

Hope this helps,
William



Gee, that's kind of anticlimactic. I was hoping for some kind of vast
conspiracy and/or coverup. ;-) Thanks for the update anyway.

Best regards,
Bob