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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Extending a ring main with junction boxes
Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no
longer allowed in the IEE regs. Uh Oh. I have to use junction boxes otherwise I would have to remove fitted wardrobes and the entire bathroom. Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the junction boxes. Any comments? |
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Whats wrong with junction boxes?
Nothing. The floorboard above them will be screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the junction boxes. Any comments? Nope. Sounds fine to me. However, I would crimp instead. More reliable and doesn't require periodic inspection. Christian. |
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Rob wrote:
Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no longer allowed in the IEE regs. Who/what/where does it say that? -- Chris Green |
#4
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In article .com,
"Rob" writes: Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no longer allowed in the IEE regs. You found out from an unreliable source. Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the junction boxes. They have to remain accessible, otherwise use crimps. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#5
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The phrase
"N.B. This method is now excluded from the IEE Wiring regulations, but remains for reference. " fro this site http://www.diynot.com/pages/el/el014.php |
#6
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On 15 Apr 2005 01:57:18 -0700, "Rob" wrote:
Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no longer allowed in the IEE regs. Uh Oh. I have to use junction boxes otherwise I would have to remove fitted wardrobes and the entire bathroom. Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the junction boxes. Any comments? Would it be possible to use additional sockets instead of a junction box? That way you'd make sure the connections are accessible, as well as gaining more sockets! -- Frank Erskine |
#7
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"Rob" wrote:
The phrase "N.B. This method is now excluded from the IEE Wiring regulations, but remains for reference. " fro this site http://www.diynot.com/pages/el/el014.php I think I'd rather rely on this: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.4.3.htm Al |
#8
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"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message .. . In article .com, "Rob" writes: Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no longer allowed in the IEE regs. You found out from an unreliable source. Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the junction boxes. They have to remain accessible, otherwise use crimps. On the subject of crimps 1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade connector ? ring terminal and bolt? 2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something? Jim |
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Jim Ingram wrote:
On the subject of crimps 1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade connector ? ring terminal and bolt? 2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something? Jim And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm (and there isn't a next size down readily available)? Rod |
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"Rod" wrote in message ... Jim Ingram wrote: On the subject of crimps 1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade connector ? ring terminal and bolt? 2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something? Jim And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm (and there isn't a next size down readily available)? Rod It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive use yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the right direction for crimp connectors and possible housings? |
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In article , "Fred"
says... "Rod" wrote in message ... Jim Ingram wrote: On the subject of crimps 1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade connector ? ring terminal and bolt? 2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something? Jim And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm (and there isn't a next size down readily available)? Rod It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive use yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the right direction for crimp connectors and possible housings? http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=30365 Sizes are given under Specifications. Cover it with heatshrink sleeve and you won't need a housing. |
#12
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"Rob Morley" wrote in message t... In article , "Fred" says... snip It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive use yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the right direction for crimp connectors and possible housings? http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=30365 Sizes are given under Specifications. Cover it with heatshrink sleeve and you won't need a housing. Many thanks. I saw these and assumed they were for automotive use. Is heat shrinking sufficient? Just that it's generally a lot thinner than the original PVC found on Flat T+E cables. Would you put heatshrink around the whole T+E cable? |
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In article ,
Fred wrote: And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm (and there isn't a next size down readily available)? It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a result of the loosening. Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that. Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double it over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first. And use a screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot. -- *I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#14
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Fred wrote: And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm (and there isn't a next size down readily available)? It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a result of the loosening. Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that. Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double it over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first. And use a screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot. -- I accept that. Just that I'm always wary of brass screws and threads. They're not very strong. |
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In article ,
Fred wrote: Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that. Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double it over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first. And use a screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot. -- I accept that. Just that I'm always wary of brass screws and threads. They're not very strong. They are, for all practical purposes. Like I said, get one and test it to destruction. -- *Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#16
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
: I accept that. Just that I'm always wary of brass screws and threads. They're not very strong. They are, for all practical purposes. Like I said, get one and test it to destruction. Over the years I have had several brass screws fail - typically one half of the head simply flying off. OK - typically duraplugs rather than fixed wiring. I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used. Excellent. -- Rod |
#17
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In message , Fred
writes "Rob Morley" wrote in message et... In article , "Fred" says... snip It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive use yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the right direction for crimp connectors and possible housings? http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=30365 Sizes are given under Specifications. Cover it with heatshrink sleeve and you won't need a housing. Many thanks. I saw these and assumed they were for automotive use. Is heat shrinking sufficient? Just that it's generally a lot thinner than the original PVC found on Flat T+E cables. Would you put heatshrink around the whole T+E cable? Yeah but the insulation on the T&E has to withstand being pulled through holes, under floors etc. once the cable is in place it's not going to ahve to withstand such mechanical treatment. I put a length of heat shrink over the whole joint/cable Re teh comment about sizes, I found that the same size crimop (whatever it was) was fine for the all three wires in 2.5mm T&E -- Chris French, Leeds |
#18
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Rod wrote:
I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used. Excellent. MK plugs - pricey as they are - are a pleasure to wire up; form a loop in the bared flex just large enough to slip over the brass stud (folded in a clockwise-downwards spiral, of course, for compatibility with the stud thread ;-) and screw down the bolts-with-captive-washers till they're nice and snug. For terminal blocks, rising-clamp construction like the Zeta pieces are several notches up from the cheapies; inbetween are chocblox which have a leaf between the screw and the wire. Habits vary - as we've discussed here - on 'prejoining' conductors before securing them. Pros frown on twisting together conductors going into the 'tunnels' of a socket, as 'when' you do a full-bore period inspection you'd have to untwist, inducing fatigue. Back in the real world of domestic installs, where sockets are fit-n-forget and go undisturbed from one decade to the next, light pretwisting strikes me as worth doing... No-name junction boxes, OTOH, are often devilspawn; my most common failure experience with these is the plastick base moulding giving way if you apply a realistic torque to the screw... Stefek |
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:26:02 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote: Rod wrote: I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used. Excellent. MK plugs - pricey as they are - are a pleasure to wire up; form a loop in the bared flex just large enough to slip over the brass stud (folded in a clockwise-downwards spiral, of course, for compatibility with the stud thread ;-) and screw down the bolts-with-captive-washers till they're nice and snug. I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, but regarding sockets I don't honestly think they are (or were) as good. When I rewired my parents' house - ooh - over 20 years ago I used a mixture of MK and Crabtree sockets, and had trouble with several of the MK sockets - poor contact in the sockets gave rise to overheating, even when using MK plugs and only lowish-power appliances (food mixer, vacuum cleaner, etc). Replacing the offending sockets with Crabtree ones solved everything. Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years! -- Frank Erskine |
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Frank Erskine wrote:
Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years! Yes - part of the Electrium Group, along with a few other well-known names: http://www.electrium.co.uk/crabtree.htm -- Andy |
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"Frank Erskine" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:26:02 +0100, Stefek Zaba wrote: Rod wrote: I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used. Excellent. MK plugs - pricey as they are - are a pleasure to wire up; form a loop in the bared flex just large enough to slip over the brass stud (folded in a clockwise-downwards spiral, of course, for compatibility with the stud thread ;-) and screw down the bolts-with-captive-washers till they're nice and snug. I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, {...} The newest ones have a crappy grub screw arrangement, as do most of the other plug tops on the market, and are nowhere near as good as the older ones :-( Shame on you MK. Probably saved 0.0001p on each one in production. Huh, what price quality! Dave |
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Frank Erskine wrote:
Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years! Most definitely, the wholesaler I use (Denmans) sell Crabtree and I believe Screwfix do too. -- Chris Green |
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In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote: I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, but regarding sockets I don't honestly think they are (or were) as good. When I rewired my parents' house - ooh - over 20 years ago I used a mixture of MK and Crabtree sockets, and had trouble with several of the MK sockets - poor contact in the sockets gave rise to overheating, even when using MK plugs and only lowish-power appliances (food mixer, vacuum cleaner, etc). Replacing the offending sockets with Crabtree ones solved everything. Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years! I'd agree. I loved the old Crabtree range of many years ago - IIRC, called 'Classic'. Beautiful design and well made. Still IMHO unsurpassed. -- *Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Frank Erskine wrote: I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, but regarding sockets I don't honestly think they are (or were) as good. When I rewired my parents' house - ooh - over 20 years ago I used a mixture of MK and Crabtree sockets, and had trouble with several of the MK sockets - poor contact in the sockets gave rise to overheating, even when using MK plugs and only lowish-power appliances (food mixer, vacuum cleaner, etc). MK are overrated. Replacing the offending sockets with Crabtree ones solved everything. Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years! I'd agree. I loved the old Crabtree range of many years ago - IIRC, called 'Classic'. Beautiful design and well made. Still IMHO unsurpassed. Their commercial range was absolutely crap. Their star-delta motor contactors were the pits. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote: I'd agree. I loved the old Crabtree range of many years ago - IIRC, called 'Classic'. Beautiful design and well made. Still IMHO unsurpassed. Their commercial range was absolutely crap. Their star-delta motor contactors were the pits. Now claiming to be an expert in commercial wiring products as well as all the rest. Will your talents never end? However, my comment was about their domestic wiring accessories of old. Unlike some who go purely by brand names without any thought, I only state here my views based on my personal experience. And since you barely know how to wire a plug, most would do well to ignore you. -- *How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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