Extending a ring main with junction boxes
 

Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no
longer allowed in the IEE regs.

Uh Oh.

I have to use junction boxes otherwise I would have to remove fitted
wardrobes and the entire bathroom.

Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be
screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the
junction boxes.

Any comments?

Whats wrong with junction boxes?

Nothing.

The floorboard above them will be screwed in place and not nailed
and marked as an access point for the junction boxes.

Any comments?

Nope. Sounds fine to me. However, I would crimp instead. More reliable and
doesn't require periodic inspection.

Christian.

Rob wrote:
Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no
longer allowed in the IEE regs.

Who/what/where does it say that?

--
Chris Green

In article .com,
"Rob" writes:
Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no
longer allowed in the IEE regs.

You found out from an unreliable source.

Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be
screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the
junction boxes.

They have to remain accessible, otherwise use crimps.

--
Andrew Gabriel

The phrase

"N.B. This method is now excluded from the IEE Wiring regulations, but
remains for reference. "

fro this site

http://www.diynot.com/pages/el/el014.php

On 15 Apr 2005 01:57:18 -0700, "Rob" wrote:

Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is now no
longer allowed in the IEE regs.

Uh Oh.

I have to use junction boxes otherwise I would have to remove fitted
wardrobes and the entire bathroom.

Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will be
screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for the
junction boxes.

Any comments?

Would it be possible to use additional sockets instead of a junction
box? That way you'd make sure the connections are accessible, as well
as gaining more sockets!

--
Frank Erskine

"Rob" wrote:
The phrase

"N.B. This method is now excluded from the IEE Wiring regulations, but
remains for reference. "

fro this site

http://www.diynot.com/pages/el/el014.php


I think I'd rather rely on this:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.4.3.htm

Al

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article .com,
"Rob" writes:
Just found out that extending a ring main with junction boxes is
now no
longer allowed in the IEE regs.

You found out from an unreliable source.

Whats wrong with junction boxes? The floorboard above them will
be
screwed in place and not nailed and marked as an access point for
the
junction boxes.

They have to remain accessible, otherwise use crimps.

On the subject of crimps

1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur
from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade
connector ? ring terminal and bolt?

2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of
some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable
sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something?

Jim

Jim Ingram wrote:

On the subject of crimps

1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur
from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade
connector ? ring terminal and bolt?

2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of
some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable
sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something?

Jim

And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and
earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for
the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm
(and there isn't a next size down readily available)?

Rod

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Jim Ingram wrote:

On the subject of crimps

1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur
from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade
connector ? ring terminal and bolt?

2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of
some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable
sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something?

Jim

And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and
earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for
the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm
(and there isn't a next size down readily available)?

Rod

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal
isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a
result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive use
yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any
suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the right
direction for crimp connectors and possible housings?

In article , "Fred"
says...

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Jim Ingram wrote:

On the subject of crimps

1) What's the correct way to join 3 conductors (e.g. to create a spur
from a ring main) - one size up butt conector? piggy back spade
connector ? ring terminal and bolt?

2) how do you finsh the job off? Heat srink? Place in an enclosure of
some sort? wrap in insulation tape? Presumably where the outer cable
sheath has been removed the wires need to be protected by something?

Jim

And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and
earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for
the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm
(and there isn't a next size down readily available)?

Rod

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw terminal
isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot as a
result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive use
yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any
suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the right
direction for crimp connectors and possible housings?



http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=30365

Sizes are given under Specifications. Cover it with heatshrink
sleeve and you won't need a housing.

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Fred"
says...

snip

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw
terminal
isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot
as a
result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive
use
yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any
suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the
right
direction for crimp connectors and possible housings?



http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=30365

Sizes are given under Specifications. Cover it with heatshrink
sleeve and you won't need a housing.

Many thanks. I saw these and assumed they were for automotive use. Is heat
shrinking sufficient? Just that it's generally a lot thinner than the
original PVC found on Flat T+E cables. Would you put heatshrink around the
whole T+E cable?

In article ,
Fred wrote:
And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N and
earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for
the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm
(and there isn't a next size down readily available)?

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw
terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can
get hot as a result of the loosening.

Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that.

Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten
firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double it
over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first. And use a
screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fred wrote:
And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N
and
earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size for
the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping 1.5mm
(and there isn't a next size down readily available)?

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw
terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can
get hot as a result of the loosening.

Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that.

Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten
firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double it
over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first. And use a
screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot.

--

I accept that. Just that I'm always wary of brass screws and threads.
They're not very strong.

In article ,
Fred wrote:
Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that.

Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten
firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double
it over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first.
And use a screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot.

--

I accept that. Just that I'm always wary of brass screws and threads.
They're not very strong.


They are, for all practical purposes. Like I said, get one and test it to
destruction.

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:

I accept that. Just that I'm always wary of brass screws and threads.
They're not very strong.


They are, for all practical purposes. Like I said, get one and test it to
destruction.

Over the years I have had several brass screws fail - typically one half of
the head simply flying off. OK - typically duraplugs rather than fixed
wiring.

I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the
firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used.
Excellent.

--
Rod

In message , Fred
writes

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Fred"
says...

snip

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw
terminal
isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things can get hot
as a
result of the loosening. I am aware of crimp connectors for automotive
use
yet a quick glance at the likes of Screwfix haven't come up with any
suitable crimps for fixed installations. Can someone point me in the
right
direction for crimp connectors and possible housings?



http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...75317&ts=30365

Sizes are given under Specifications. Cover it with heatshrink
sleeve and you won't need a housing.

Many thanks. I saw these and assumed they were for automotive use. Is heat
shrinking sufficient? Just that it's generally a lot thinner than the
original PVC found on Flat T+E cables. Would you put heatshrink around the
whole T+E cable?


Yeah but the insulation on the T&E has to withstand being pulled through
holes, under floors etc. once the cable is in place it's not going to
ahve to withstand such mechanical treatment.

I put a length of heat shrink over the whole joint/cable

Re teh comment about sizes, I found that the same size crimop (whatever
it was) was fine for the all three wires in 2.5mm T&E

--
Chris French, Leeds

Rod wrote:


I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the
firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used.
Excellent.

MK plugs - pricey as they are - are a pleasure to wire up; form a loop
in the bared flex just large enough to slip over the brass stud (folded
in a clockwise-downwards spiral, of course, for compatibility with the
stud thread ;-) and screw down the bolts-with-captive-washers till
they're nice and snug.

For terminal blocks, rising-clamp construction like the Zeta pieces are
several notches up from the cheapies; inbetween are chocblox which have
a leaf between the screw and the wire.

Habits vary - as we've discussed here - on 'prejoining' conductors
before securing them. Pros frown on twisting together conductors going
into the 'tunnels' of a socket, as 'when' you do a full-bore period
inspection you'd have to untwist, inducing fatigue. Back in the real
world of domestic installs, where sockets are fit-n-forget and go
undisturbed from one decade to the next, light pretwisting strikes me as
worth doing...

No-name junction boxes, OTOH, are often devilspawn; my most common
failure experience with these is the plastick base moulding giving way
if you apply a realistic torque to the screw...

Stefek

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:26:02 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

Rod wrote:


I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the
firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used.
Excellent.

MK plugs - pricey as they are - are a pleasure to wire up; form a loop
in the bared flex just large enough to slip over the brass stud (folded
in a clockwise-downwards spiral, of course, for compatibility with the
stud thread ;-) and screw down the bolts-with-captive-washers till
they're nice and snug.

I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, but regarding sockets I
don't honestly think they are (or were) as good.

When I rewired my parents' house - ooh - over 20 years ago I used a
mixture of MK and Crabtree sockets, and had trouble with several of
the MK sockets - poor contact in the sockets gave rise to
overheating, even when using MK plugs and only lowish-power appliances
(food mixer, vacuum cleaner, etc).

Replacing the offending sockets with Crabtree ones solved everything.

Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years!

--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine wrote:

Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years!

Yes - part of the Electrium Group, along with a few other well-known names:

http://www.electrium.co.uk/crabtree.htm

--
Andy

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:26:02 +0100, Stefek Zaba
wrote:

Rod wrote:


I have just fitted some GET sockets (from TLC) and these have had the
firmest, most confidence-inspiring screws/wire clamping I have used.
Excellent.

MK plugs - pricey as they are - are a pleasure to wire up; form a loop
in the bared flex just large enough to slip over the brass stud (folded
in a clockwise-downwards spiral, of course, for compatibility with the
stud thread ;-) and screw down the bolts-with-captive-washers till
they're nice and snug.

I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, {...}

The newest ones have a crappy grub screw arrangement, as do most of the
other plug tops on the market, and are nowhere near as good as the older
ones :-(

Shame on you MK. Probably saved 0.0001p on each one in production. Huh, what
price quality!

Dave

Frank Erskine wrote:

Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years!

Most definitely, the wholesaler I use (Denmans) sell Crabtree and I
believe Screwfix do too.

--
Chris Green

In article , (Dave
Plowman (News)) wrote:

In article ,
Fred wrote:
And, a piece of 2.5 T&E has two different thickness wires - the L&N
and
earth. Do you use the same size crimp on all three? Or drop a size
for
the earth? And if you drop a size, what do you do when crimping
1.5mm
(and there isn't a next size down readily available)?

It's a shame these haven't been answered. My experience of screw
terminal isn't that good in that copper appears to creep and things
can
get hot as a result of the loosening.

Then you're not tightening them correctly - it's as simple as that.

Use a screwdriver with the same blade width as the screw, and tighten
firmly. If a single cable into a terminal designed for three, double it
over. If you're worried about stripping threads, practice first. And
use a
screwdriver in good condition to avoid damaging the slot.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

When wiring into MK sockets, I use a B&Q "5 x 100mm blade Micro finish
slotted" screwdriver. This is slightly wider than a standard electrical
screwdriver and fits the screw slot snugly. The actual blade may be a bit
too wide to fit into all makes of sockets though, as sometimes the access
holes to the terminal screws are a bit too narrow for the blade to fit
through.

Roger

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, but regarding sockets I
don't honestly think they are (or were) as good.

When I rewired my parents' house - ooh - over 20 years ago I used a
mixture of MK and Crabtree sockets, and had trouble with several of
the MK sockets - poor contact in the sockets gave rise to
overheating, even when using MK plugs and only lowish-power appliances
(food mixer, vacuum cleaner, etc).

Replacing the offending sockets with Crabtree ones solved everything.

Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years!

I'd agree. I loved the old Crabtree range of many years ago - IIRC, called
'Classic'. Beautiful design and well made. Still IMHO unsurpassed.

--
*Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
I would agree wholeheartedly about MK plugs, but regarding sockets I
don't honestly think they are (or were) as good.

When I rewired my parents' house - ooh - over 20 years ago I used a
mixture of MK and Crabtree sockets, and had trouble with several of
the MK sockets - poor contact in the sockets gave rise to
overheating, even when using MK plugs and only lowish-power appliances
(food mixer, vacuum cleaner, etc).

MK are overrated.

Replacing the offending sockets with Crabtree ones solved everything.

Are Crabtree still about? I haven't seen 'em for years!

I'd agree. I loved the old Crabtree range of many years ago - IIRC, called
'Classic'. Beautiful design and well made. Still IMHO unsurpassed.

Their commercial range was absolutely crap. Their star-delta motor
contactors were the pits.


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
I'd agree. I loved the old Crabtree range of many years ago - IIRC,
called 'Classic'. Beautiful design and well made. Still IMHO
unsurpassed.

Their commercial range was absolutely crap. Their star-delta motor
contactors were the pits.

Now claiming to be an expert in commercial wiring products as well as all
the rest. Will your talents never end?

However, my comment was about their domestic wiring accessories of old.
Unlike some who go purely by brand names without any thought, I only state
here my views based on my personal experience.

And since you barely know how to wire a plug, most would do well to ignore
you.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.